Williams Multi Control Panel Layout

[Kevin Mullins]

Maybe I have missed it searching around the site, but anyone have a layout for the Phoenix Arcade CPO drawn up like the one I found for the standard Defender panel ?

Was going to do the woodwork for someone, but I don't the overlay itself handy to work off.
Wanted to just cut and drill and hand it over type thing.
We're doing a standard Defender control panel, not the rounded over Stargate, Robotron, etc panel.

[jukingeo]

Maybe I have missed it searching around the site, but anyone have a layout for the Phoenix Arcade CPO drawn up like the one I found for the standard Defender panel ?

Was going to do the woodwork for someone, but I don't the overlay itself handy to work off.
Wanted to just cut and drill and hand it over type thing.
We're doing a standard Defender control panel, not the rounded over Stargate, Robotron, etc panel.

Hello Kevin,

I just have to do a BIG LOL, as I made a similar post today in regards to the measurements for a Multi-Williams CP layout.   However, I can safely say that there isn't anything posted here in regards to the Multi-Williams CP measurements.  There is plenty on just a straight Defender panel though.  In fact I found a thread in which someone documented the full dimensions of the whole Defender cabinet.

In my case I am looking to create a smaller version of the Multi-Williams control panel for a bar top cabinet.  However, I wanted to have an idea of what the original measurements are so I could scale it down.

Two fellows here, Spacies and LeapInLew have both created bartop/cocktail Multi Williams cabinets with exactly what I am looking for...however, a PM to both has thusfar came up with zilch.   The posts though are pretty old, going back to 2006.  So it is likely that either poster no longer regularly visits this site.

At any rate my purpose for a Multi-Williams panel goes beyond just Multi-Williams games.  As it turns out the Multi-Williams panel with a slight modification of the placement of one of the buttons, can play about 90% of the Mame games out there.   I eventually would build a full size cabinet that would allow changing of the control panels, but the main panel would be a Multi-Williams.   But for now space is a problem and a smaller bar top cabinet would be sufficient enough for my needs.

At any rate, since both of us are looking for the same thing...just give me a shout out on my post (a few down from here) if you hear anything.  I will do the same.   Sadly though, no one has responded to my post as of yet either.   I do find it surprising that the Multi-Williams panel's button placement measurements have not been documented here.  But I have found at least three threads that offer the measurements for Defender and one for Stargate.

Geo

[TOK]

I don't have the artwork you need, but you're doing the right thing. The Reverse button placement on the Multi-Williams panel is really bad... Too high up and far away.

[spystyle]

Does this help ?

(attached)

[jukingeo]

I don't have the artwork you need, but you're doing the right thing. The Reverse button placement on the Multi-Williams panel is really bad... Too high up and far away.

That isn't exactly what I meant, but I am aware of that problem as well.  I actually wanted to move the "Inviso" button next to the Reverse button.  This would in effect move the Reverse button closer to that joystick as well.

Why? might you ask?  Well, with the button arrangement like that it does open up controlling Mame games that use only buttons.

This panel gave me the idea (scroll down a bit):

http://www.ourvictorianhouse.com/CraigsArcade/Roswell%2088201/Roswell.html

You can clearly see the "Asteroids" configuration in that button layout.

The side effect though is that the button arrangement wouldn't be accurate for Stargate.  BUT just about everyone I know prefers the original Defender anyway.   I never played Stargate myself in the arcades.  It was kind of a rare find in my area to begin with.   I will say that if room permits, I can just duplicate the button so the panel would be Stargate accurate, BUT considering that I am going to make a smaller cabinet, I am not sure if I will have the room.

But that is what I meant about moving a button.   But it does fall into place that the addition of that button AND making a smaller panel will dictate moving the reverse button closer to the left joystick.  I do agree with you there.  Since I DO have the original Defender measurements...the button on the Multi-Williams is way off.   But I guess they did it that way mainly for Joust.

Does this help ?

(attached)

Well, not really.   I was looking for the measurements for the button/joystick placement centers.  With that info I can see how I can scale the panel down.    The artwork might come in handy IF it is scalable.   However, scaling it down would change the finger to finger button placement and that is what I would like to avoid.   More then likely I would have to alter the spacing between the left joystick and two buttons with the right joystick and it's group of buttons.

Overall I believe the original Multi-Williams panel was meant for a 24" by 8" mounting.   24" is WAY too large for a bar top cabinet.  I would be thinking more along the lines of an 18" by 6" panel as that size would still allow me to use a 19" LCD monitor in the cabinet.    I am pretty sure I can get all the controls in that size, but it is the spacing I am concerned with.  I DID want to use the Multi-Williams artwork and this new size could present some problems.   A cardboard mock up is definitely in order, BUT I need the dimensions to start with.

Geo

[Kevin Mullins]

Does this help ?

(attached)

Actually the CPO artwork might if I can figure out how to print it fullsize and then I can just take the measurements from the print.
 

I always seem to have issues doing a multi page print and having it actually come out the right size once pieced together. But I'll give it a shot.

If all else fails I'll go get the actual CPO from the fella and just do it that way.
(just won't be any time soon)

[spystyle]

Does this help ?

(attached)

Actually the CPO artwork might if I can figure out how to print it fullsize and then I can just take the measurements from the print...

Coincidentally I just made a custom CPO in photoshop and used it as a template.

In photoshop resize it to actual width

With "poster printery" print it out segmented onto thick printer paper.

Use a trimmer (or scissors) to cut out the artwork (it prints with white borders)

Paint a kinda thick layer of "acrylic protector" on your material (think of it as wallpaper glue)

Stick your artwork to the material and let it dry, the acrylic protector will seep through from the back to the front and both attach and laminate the artwork. (do not paint anything onto the front of the artwork)



Segmented artwork is not too great, but it could at least work as a template

Have fun
Craig

[jukingeo]

Does this help ?

(attached)

Actually the CPO artwork might if I can figure out how to print it fullsize and then I can just take the measurements from the print.
 

I always seem to have issues doing a multi page print and having it actually come out the right size once pieced together. But I'll give it a shot.

If all else fails I'll go get the actual CPO from the fella and just do it that way.
(just won't be any time soon)

Hello Kevin,

We are kind of both in the same predicament.   The Defender dimensions do give one a start as you really have to do is fudge the location of the Inviso button and the center (right) joystick.   But that would really have you start moving quite a few things around...very time consuming.

I too thought of just getting a Multi-Williams CPO...however since I really need a smaller version, I can't see spending the $30 for a CPO just to get the dimensions.  Thus I was hoping that someone posted the dimensions here.

Geo

[CheffoJeffo]

I haven't done any work on the CP for my MW project as yet as I am still hoping that tanman (who bought the Phoenix films) might yet be persuaded to run full sets of art.

Having said that, I have been entertaining modifying the artwork because, as tok points out, the placement of the reverse button is too far to be convenient. I already have my Joust cocktail so am considering "deJousting" my Mw and moving the damned button. Or I could just use black vinyl like is on there now.

jukingeo: I'm not sure I see your problem -- since you are making a custom panel, what do you need original measurements for (I may have missed something) ? If you want the AI files for the art to rescale or adjust, they can be found in Zorg's archive:

http://vectorlib.free.fr/MultiWilliams/

[spystyle]

Oh I found that overlay for sale here :

http://www.arcadeoverlays.com/storefrontprofiles/DeluxeSFItemDetail.aspx?sid=1&sfid=17232&c=383928&i=250278371

I think they print your supplied artwork, so you could have them print the sideart as well

[Kevin Mullins]

Having said that, I have been entertaining modifying the artwork because, as tok points out, the placement of the reverse button is too far to be convenient. I already have my Joust cocktail so am considering "deJousting" my Mw and moving the damned button. Or I could just use black vinyl like is on there now.

I see what you guys are saying about the reverse button and all...... but also just noticed there seems to be different "already modified" versions of this artwork.

http://vectorlib.free.fr/MultiWilliams/ - Reverse button closer, but lower / Hyperspace button lower than Inviso button

http://www.arcadeoverlays.com/fullView.asp?sf=y&nb=1&id=%27250278371%27&img=http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/60/60416/mwcposmall.jpg - Reverse button higher, but farther / Hyperspace button level with Inviso button.

There are definitely other variants I've noticed between a few of them now that I'm looking at more than one. Guess anyone shopping for one really needs to look at them closely first.

I guess in my case the guy I was going to make the panel for already has an overlay, but I need to double check and see exactly which CPO he has before I can even make the panel. (I think he has the version with the higher reverse button)

And to think this was one of those "sure, I can cut ya a rectangle and drill some holes in it" jobs.
 

[jukingeo]

jukingeo: I'm not sure I see your problem -- since you are making a custom panel, what do you need original measurements for (I may have missed something) ? If you want the AI files for the art to rescale or adjust, they can be found in Zorg's archive:

http://vectorlib.free.fr/MultiWilliams/

Ok, the reason why I am interested in the original layout is because of the SPACING of the controls.  When you scale down a CPO...especially in width, this spacing changes, so that means buttons and joystick spacing will all be closer together than optimal.  This  is why I wanted to know what the exact measurements are in regards to the button spacing.  I would like to maintain that.

I did think that it might be possible to print out an overlay and work from there making my own measurements, however, recently I have noticed that there are different variants of the Multi-Williams CPO...so really how would I know which one is correct?

I don't have expensive programs such as photo shop so I really can't break down the panel to the individual elements and make one from scratch.  I really wanted to avoid that route because I know it will take quite a bit more time. 

If you ever looked at the work done by Spacies and LeapInLew on their Multi-Williams bartop cabinets then you would clearly see what I mean.  I had tried to PM both fellows but no response.   Their projects dated back to 2006 (and prior) so I am not even sure they still post here.

As of now it does look like I would probably have to create a custom panel, even though I don't like the idea of it.  But I would still need the button/joystick placement measurements.   Since the AI file you linked to is scalable, I MIGHT be able to get those measurements from there.  We will see.

Oh I found that overlay for sale here :

http://www.arcadeoverlays.com/storefrontprofiles/DeluxeSFItemDetail.aspx?sid=1&sfid=17232&c=383928&i=250278371

I think they print your supplied artwork, so you could have them print the sideart as well

Side art for the cabinet wouldn't be a problem as long as it is scalable.   I could adjust that up and down or as you pointed out, the company could do that for me.   It is really the control panel that is the tough one.   I don't know, I think at this state I just have to use one of those scalable control panel files to create a printout and work from there.

Thanx,

Geo

[jukingeo]

I see what you guys are saying about the reverse button and all...... but also just noticed there seems to be different "already modified" versions of this artwork.

There are definitely other variants I've noticed between a few of them now that I'm looking at more than one. Guess anyone shopping for one really needs to look at them closely first.

Correct, I have noticed the same thing between the two sources.  Also what is labeled the "Normal" panel differs from the "Small" panel.  So I looked around at others that were selling overlays and I can see further inconsistencies.

I guess in my case the guy I was going to make the panel for already has an overlay, but I need to double check and see exactly which CPO he has before I can even make the panel. (I think he has the version with the higher reverse button)

And to think this was one of those "sure, I can cut ya a rectangle and drill some holes in it" jobs.
 

Ooo, yeah that is going to be a tough one for you.  I guess you will have to check which company he bought the CPO from.   Hopefully the company has a vector file and you could print out the exact control panel.  Still better yet, it would be much easier if the guy sent you the CPO...then there would be no question about the results.

But this finding now has thrown me for a loop and now I understand why there really aren't any postings of measurements for the Williams Multi-Game CP.  They seem to vary.

I think in terms of button spacing I am going to use the Defender spacing and fudge the location of the middle joystick.   I am moving the Inviso button anyway.  The reverse button is in the correct position and I could just copy the spacing the buttons on the right side have for the extra left side button I want to install.  While I may have to redo the entire planned artwork for the control panel, at  least I can get as far to make up a mock up of a panel in my planned size and then do some testing to see if the resulting size 'feels' right.

In terms of the Defender spacing, I have the same file you put up in your original post so I will work from that.

However, I still think it would be a good idea to document the spacing of the different Multi-Williams control panels and post that as a sticky.   The average newbie will not notice the discovery we made and if they drill out a panel for Multi-Williams and buy one from another source, the CPO will not match the panel cutouts.

In your case though, I think it is best that you get a hold of that CPO from the guy you are making the panel for...otherwise you both could be in for a surprise.

Geo

[Kevin Mullins]

However, I still think it would be a good idea to document the spacing of the different Multi-Williams control panels and post that as a sticky.   The average newbie will not notice the discovery we made and if they drill out a panel for Multi-Williams and buy one from another source, the CPO will not match the panel cutouts.

That's kinda what I was thinking. Even though there are a few variations of the typical Multi panel, there really aren't THAT many. So a layout for the most common ones would be handy.

In your case though, I think it is best that you get a hold of that CPO from the guy you are making the panel for...otherwise you both could be in for a surprise.

Luckily he's only about 25 miles from me and I usually frequent down there, just the weather and holidays and such have kept me from going anywhere or doing much lately.

[CheffoJeffo]

I did think that it might be possible to print out an overlay and work from there making my own measurements, however, recently I have noticed that there are different variants of the Multi-Williams CPO...so really how would I know which one is correct?

To be fair, there have always been multiple versions, even before people started modifying the Phoenix version to fit their needs (e.g. don't buy an ArcadeShop MW CP and expect it to work with the Phoenix artwork). So, short answer is ... there is no single correct version and it is only getting worse with the recent explosion of MW cabs (thanks jrok!).

If you ever looked at the work done by Spacies and LeapInLew on their Multi-Williams bartop cabinets then you would clearly see what I mean.  I had tried to PM both fellows but no response.   Their projects dated back to 2006 (and prior) so I am not even sure they still post here.

I haven't seen spacies on any of the boards in recent memory -- the last time I chatted with him was last March concerning the translucent buttons that he used on his MW panel. He was spending time on KLOV for a while, but I haven't seen him there lately. Lew is probably off somewhere chasing Cheetos.

As of now it does look like I would probably have to create a custom panel, even though I don't like the idea of it.  But I would still need the button/joystick placement measurements.   Since the AI file you linked to is scalable, I MIGHT be able to get those measurements from there.  We will see.

You should be able to get the spacing from there (sizing is embedded in the file).

Consider giving Inkscape and Gimp a try if you aren't looking to pay $$$ or download demo versions of Adobe products.

[CheffoJeffo]

In your case though, I think it is best that you get a hold of that CPO from the guy you are making the panel for...otherwise you both could be in for a surprise.

Luckily he's only about 25 miles from me and I usually frequent down there, just the weather and holidays and such have kept me from going anywhere or doing much lately.

+1 to jukingeo's suggestion.

AFAIK, the only source for original Phoenix artwork is now tanman and all of the online sources may tainted and adjusted.

[jukingeo]

That's kinda what I was thinking. Even though there are a few variations of the typical Multi panel, there really aren't THAT many. So a layout for the most common ones would be handy.

Luckily he's only about 25 miles from me and I usually frequent down there, just the weather and holidays and such have kept me from going anywhere or doing much lately.

Oh, that is a good thing then, so you can easily get the CPO from the owner.

Anyway, I took a good look at the Defender measurements from the file that you posted.  I made a rather nice discovery, there is QUITE a bit of space on the left and right sides.   I estimated that I could easily chop off almost 8" off the width of the panel and at least an inch from the depth.    I would have to move the hyperspace button up (and to the right side a bit) and move the Player 1-2 buttons to accommodate the center joystick...but overall I could keep much of the original Defender layout intact.

I should have  taken a gander at that Defender panel sooner.  I didn't know there was THAT much space on each side of the panel.

Geo

[jukingeo]

To be fair, there have always been multiple versions, even before people started modifying the Phoenix version to fit their needs (e.g. don't buy an ArcadeShop MW CP and expect it to work with the Phoenix artwork). So, short answer is ... there is no single correct version and it is only getting worse with the recent explosion of MW cabs (thanks jrok!).

Yeah, that is trick, huh?  Unfortunately though both Kevin and myself were NOT in the know and we both simultaneously made the discovery.  But good thing we both DID find out and avoided headaches on both sides.

I haven't seen spacies on any of the boards in recent memory -- the last time I chatted with him was last March concerning the translucent buttons that he used on his MW panel. He was spending time on KLOV for a while, but I haven't seen him there lately. Lew is probably off somewhere chasing Cheetos.

I preferred Spacies panel the most but he did have a weird spot for the Inviso button, but for my application, it wouldn't have applied.   So getting a hold of his artwork would have been the best choice.   LeapInLew's arrangement wasn't really ideal, but he managed to get the art work into a 16" panel (two inches shorter than my proposed size) so that would have worked too.

You should be able to get the spacing from there (sizing is embedded in the file).

Yeah, I just have a viewer program that came with my Linux distribution and it doesn't get that advanced.  For the most part I can resize, cut and crop, but that is about it.

Consider giving Inkscape and Gimp a try if you aren't looking to pay $$$ or download demo versions of Adobe products.

My Ubuntu Linux does have Gimp on it, but as of now that box is down.  I am right now working within Puppy Linux.  BTW, while we are on the topic.   Is there any place on the web that I COULD download the individual "parts" or "patterns" that make up the Williams Multi-Game?   If so then it might be easier to just plop those patterns down once I get the dimensions straight.   Sure it may not be 100% a Williams CP, but I sure could get close.

Thanx,

Geo

[Kevin Mullins]

+1 to jukingeo's suggestion.

AFAIK, the only source for original Phoenix artwork is now tanman and all of the online sources may tainted and adjusted.

Yeah, I think I'll hold off until I get the one he has or at least a pic of it to know which one he has.

I did notice Phoenix didn't have any listed anymore, or listed under "Sold Out" at least. Didn't know the story behind it though.
Also noticed ArcadeShop carries yet another totally different version.

I would have to move the hyperspace button up (and to the right side a bit) and move the Player 1-2 buttons to accommodate the center joystick...but overall I could keep much of the original Defender layout intact.

So are you planning on having a "third" joystick on your panel then ?

[Kevin Mullins]

Sure it may not be 100% a Williams CP, but I sure could get close.

Ain't none of them 100% Williams anyways.....so no harm done. 

You should be able to get the spacing from there (sizing is embedded in the file).

I did not know this.
I have Illustrator 8.0 but must learn how to use it one of these days.   

[jukingeo]

So are you planning on having a "third" joystick on your panel then ?

No I refer to the right joystick as the 'center' joystick because that is pretty much where it is in relation to the panel.  I do have intentions on making this joystick different as well.  It has to have both 8way and 4 way capability.  Most 4 way games have this joystick in the 'center'.  So sorry if I threw you off by saying 'center' joystick.   

Ain't none of them 100% Williams anyways.....so no harm done. 

Oh, yeah, referring to newer Multi-Williams, yeah.  There was quite the mess when Williams closed down their pinball division at around the turn of the century.   I don't know when they stopped making video game machines.   Outside of the Multi-Williams, I have not seen a Williams branded video game in a long time.  I know that Williams is still in business, but they only make gambling machines now.

I did not know this.
I have Illustrator 8.0 but must learn how to use it one of these days.   

Usually with vectoring programs you can do this.  However, the programs Photo Shop and Illustrator are Eeeexpensive.  Out of my pocketbook range that is for sure.   

However, I didn't know that Gimp (Linux) could handle vectors.   I have to see if they have one for Puppy Linux.   Once the aftermath of the holidays pass, I have to work on getting my Ubuntu machine back up.

But I think I can make a cardboard mockup using the Defender dimensions.   So I can start off with something.

Geo

[Kevin Mullins]

No I refer to the right joystick as the 'center' joystick because that is pretty much where it is in relation to the panel.  I do have intentions on making this joystick different as well.  It has to have both 8way and 4 way capability.  Most 4 way games have this joystick in the 'center'.  So sorry if I threw you off by saying 'center' joystick.   

Ah, I see now. Makes sense.
Was scratching my head thinking "man, how is he gonna cram three sticks on that panel ?".

I know that Williams is still in business, but they only make gambling machines now.

Yeah... WMS... I have worked on a few of those too.

[spystyle]

So there is all this talk about the layout of the controls being uncomfortable, is someone going to make a perfect layout?

I get the impression the button closest to the left stick should be closer for Defender but further for other games, could this problem be solved by simply adding another button?

Let's see some solutions to this ergonomic dilemma

Here is my idea :



And what about an easy-on easy-off restrictor that can be slipped over the joystick shaft to make it into a 2-way for Defender and Stargate ?

Also, have there been any complaints about the height of the Defender stick? Wasn't the original Defender stick lower than a regular 8-way?

[CheffoJeffo]

Interesting ideas ...

For me, the challenge of the MW panel is balancing the vastly different gameplay -- Defender and Joust sticks are both pretty short, but nothing beats 4" Wicos for Robotron. Add to that sticks for Bubbles, Blaster and (if you're running jrok's board) Sinistar and things can get very messy.

If I were actually any good at Defender or Stargate I would probably need to have two MW cabs (one with just Defender and Stargate and one for Robotron/Splat/Bubbles/Blaster).

[spystyle]

Swappable panels would be very easy to make

[TOK]

So there is all this talk about the layout of the controls being uncomfortable, is someone going to make a perfect layout?

Also, have there been any complaints about the height of the Defender stick? Wasn't the original Defender stick lower than a regular 8-way?

There is a reason for the bad Reverse button spacing... For Multi-Williams, you're using a standard 8 way in place of Defenders' 2 way. The base is wider, and getting the button/stick spacing correct would mean cutting the sticks mounting plate.

I also shimmed my stick down to get the height correct... Since I was mainly looking at emulating Defender and Stargate, I wanted all that stuff correct.

Here is picture showing where I cut the base of a Sanwa 8 way. I shimmed the height down with washers under the panel.

[Kevin Mullins]

Swappable panels would be very easy to make

That's exactly what started my whole little project of building this control panel.
He has a JROK Multi in a Defender cab and we are keeping the original Defender panel for just Defender and Stargate and making the multi panel for the rest basically.

I would think the biggest reason some of the buttons seem to be in the wrong locations (like the reverse, etc) is due to the fact that the 8-way joysticks and whatnot have a much larger base, so the buttons have to be a bit further in order to mount them.
EDIT: Yeah, what he said.

[TOK]

Also, why not just use the Thrust and Fire buttons instead of adding more next to the left stick?
Is this an attempt to make it work for 2 players at same time?

[jukingeo]

Also, why not just use the Thrust and Fire buttons instead of adding more next to the left stick?
Is this an attempt to make it work for 2 players at same time?

No,

I mentioned early on that I wanted two buttons on the left side because then I could play button only games.   My goal was to create a panel like this (see below):

You can clearly see the Asteroids button arrangement right in there.   The creator of this arcade cabinet even says that this particular panel allows the user to play over 90% of the games listed on Mame.

That was my main reasoning.  But I have read about the importance of moving the reverse button over anyway, so that seemed like a good idea to implement that as well.

As for swapping panels, yeah, I have that in mind with a full size cabinet.  But for now I am concentrating on a smaller bar top design.

Geo

[spystyle]

The joystick mounting plate can be cut, anything can be cut

[jukingeo]

The joystick mounting plate can be cut, anything can be cut

Sure, I have a Dremel so that isn't an issue.  The artwork you posted is pretty much what I would like to do.   

The bartop cabinet I am working on will NOT have interchangeable panels, but I did want to be able to control as many games as possible without resorting to a "Frankenpanel".   So going with that particular button arrangement of the Multi-Williams goes back to when I was originally planning a full size cabinet.  That cabinet design would pretty much do what the Roswell cabinet does in that the entire top panel could be swapped out, but the bartop will be much different.   Very different in that I am not going to use a PC for the engine source, but a modified X-box.  A modded X box will keep the wiring very neat and organized.  Everything is pretty much self contained with an X-box.  I just have to add a display, a couple controller hacks and a set of powered speakers.

Geo