New HAPP horizontal pushbuttons sux! Stay away!

[Nataq]

Hi,

I just received new horizontal pushbuttons from HAPP and they are really crap compare to those I have ordered in the past.   They are not even the same red color then the red ones I installed on my cab. Biggest issue with them is that the little piece of plastic that push on the cherry switch is positioned at about 3 millimeters from the switch insted of directly sitting on it for instant activation. Now the button needs to travel some distance before activating the switch and feels a lot flimsy in its plastic cylinder. The plastic ring of the new button is also shinier than the old ones I am used too.

New ones I have received have the brand name "Suzo Happ" written on the button and on the microswitch we can see "India" written on it. Also a date says 2008.

The ones I had ordered before have no brand name on the button itself  and it is written "Mexico" on the microswitch. Dated 2005.

See the pictures. Red button is the new one. Blue the old one.

Its maybe old story for some but I have been away for some time and didnt found anything on the forum. One thing for sure is that I wont buy any more  buttons from Happ. I knew they downgraded their joystick quality (like the competition) but its sad that other parts are following...

I dont know what to do now because I needd red buttons to complete my cab... Are the old buttons still for sell somewhere ?

 

[Nataq]

Mmmm now that im thinking about it, maybe I didnt ordered directly from Happ before but I tought those buttons was a standard. Maybe it was from Ultimarc... Are thoses differences coming from where you buy the buttons ?

[Nataq]

Think I found the answer... seems to be that IL vs Happ thing again. A confirmation would be appreciated though.

Thank you.

[Ryglore]

Well considering the Old button doesn't have Suzo Happ stamped on the tall leg piece. It's safe to say that the Old button isn't a Happ, but rather some other branded pushbutton. Personally, I don't have any problems with response time, contact or flimsiness with any of my Happ pushbuttons. Of course I don't have both of your buttons in hand to test either.

Possibly the reason the microswitch isn't being pressed in the same spot on the actuator is either an intentional or accidental difference in the mold used to make them. Some things, not matter how small they are can also be patented. So in order to get around it, the company that made your "old" buttons could have modified the design a little bit. Another thing is since you know there is a difference in where the actuator presses the microswitch, you could be thinking that you notice a difference in the feel of using it. Of course they both could use slightly different springs inside as well, and that would throw the feel off.

As for the glossiness and color. If they were the same brand, the color should be pretty spot on. But since they are different, they more than likely use different hues and types of plastic or slightly different techniques in the molding process.

[Chris]

My "old" Happ buttons have the IL logo on the switch holder.

[Ginsu Victim]

Funny thing is, I have both and I like the Happ better. I don't care for the way the IL feel.

[RandyT]

Lots of conjecture here, but not much in the way of accurate information, I'm afraid.

The newer buttons (and not really all that new....they have been like this for more than a year now) do indeed have the Suzo-Happ logo on the legs of them.  The buttons with no markings prior to these were still HAPP buttons, made from HAPP molds, and were not IL parts.  Anything before that must have been from ages ago.

There is more space between the actuators than there used to be.  Whether this is an issue or not, appears to be a matter of preference.  The extra distance seems to have been intended to allow the plunger to sit higher when not being pressed, but still drop to the same nearly flush to the bezel level when it is.  The concave curve of the plunger is also a little deeper, which holds your fingertip a little better than the earlier style.

There are pros and cons to both designs.

RandyT

[Jack Burton]

I pretty much just avoid buying anything that isn't guaranteed to be IL parts these days. 

There is so much confusion on the internet when it comes to what are Happ parts that you never know exactly what you're going to get.

In the past Happ may have had some good products, but the sure bet is on Il. 

I don't even worry about buying new Happ parts since there are dozes of vendors who still have huge stocks of Il competition sticks and buttons, both concave and convex.

[RandyT]

I pretty much just avoid buying anything that isn't guaranteed to be IL parts these days.  

There is so much confusion on the internet when it comes to what are Happ parts that you never know exactly what you're going to get.

In the past Happ may have had some good products, but the sure bet is on Il.  

I don't even worry about buying new Happ parts since there are dozes of vendors who still have huge stocks of Il competition sticks and buttons, both concave and convex.

HAPP still has good products.  You just can't buy them from a vendor who moves them from their incoming box, into your outgoing box without looking at them.

The HAPP pushbuttons and joysticks are an amazing value, considering their cost.  

IL is also not immune from issues, BTW.  In a "head to head" I did on the "competition" style sticks a while back, the IL's did a weird double click on some of the microswitches that was  actually a little worse than a similar condition being complained about on the HAPP version.  

And while I personally think the microswitches should be higher on the buttons, it's a design decision, not a "flaw".  You can't make the plunger sit higher in the bezel for aesthetic reasons without doing this, unless you also increase the seated height.  It's a physical impossibility, without doing something like adding a foam cushion to the actuator (and that's just crazy).  So while it may not appeal to some (and this is the first complaint I have seen in the year+ since the transition) it's not a "quality" issue.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

IL do produce unbranded buttons for Suzo-Happ because thats exactly what we buy from them.

The pushbuttons we sell are genuine IL buttons, packed in IL boxes. They do not have the IL logo on the buttons though.
We buy them from Suzo-Happ because its convenient to do so as they are 2 miles from us.

IL have several moldsets. The molds without the IL logo are used to produce OEM pushbuttons and the ones with IL are their own branded but they are identical apart from the logo.

As with many Happ items, when Happ bought ChinaTec, they started producing more of their own items rather than buying-in, and I would assume the buttons in question here are from China. I have never seen these.

Incidentally we specify Cherry switches which Suzo-Happ supply. If the switch is not specifically ordered as Cherry, they supply other makes.


 

[RandyT]

As with many Happ items, when Happ bought ChinaTec, they started producing more of their own items rather than buying-in, and I would assume the buttons in question here are from China. I have never seen these.

I believe that is a safe assumption.  The Suzo-HAPP branded buttons are definitely not coming from the previous US manufacturer,  who I can say with 100% certainty made the other button shown in this thread.  10's of thousands of both varieties have passed through my hands....I'd know them with the lights off.

FWIW, HAPP has been actively weening themselves from the IL parts, and their manufacturing plant has been upping their game.  They switched up a higher end pushbutton nut on me recently, that used to be made by IL.  The fit and finish of the replacement is fantastic.  I never knew they did it until a bag of them came in with the factory sticker still on it.  As far as the newer Suzo-HAPP branded buttons are concerned, the finish, uniformity and quality of the colors is actually better than the past offering. 

Spanish manufacturers aren't the only source for quality arcade parts.

RandyT

[Jack Burton]

This might be the wrong place to say this, but you know what I really want?  A Japanese style pushbutton that will fit Happ and IL mounting.

Something like a Sanwa OBSF-30, except a little smaller to fit holes in American control panels, and long enough to fit through 3/4" MDF.  It should use the same or very similar switch that Sanwa uses.

If you could make that Randy I would buy 32 from you instantly.

[Ginsu Victim]

A Sanwa-style button made for wood would sell. I'd give 'em a try.

[RandyT]

This might be the wrong place to say this, but you know what I really want?  A Japanese style pushbutton that will fit Happ and IL mounting.

Something like a Sanwa OBSF-30, except a little smaller to fit holes in American control panels, and long enough to fit through 3/4" MDF.  It should use the same or very similar switch that Sanwa uses.

If you could make that Randy I would buy 32 from you instantly.

I'm not sure it's possible to make them longer without screwing up the dynamic you obviously like about them.  Having such a short body, and a much shorter throw, affords them the opportunity to be very tight.  Once you start extending the components to reach through 3/4" of wood, and needing to add threads for nuts to hold them, which can compress the body somewhat due to the drafts that are necessary for demolding, etc. , it gets a lot a harder to take the slop out without getting stickage.

So why not just put some extension wires on the contacts of the Sanwa's, drill a proper size, slightly tight, hole and jam (sorry, I meant "press fit" ) them into the wood.  Do they fall out?

RandyT

[Jack Burton]

Well, I can do what you say about shoving them in, and they will stay pretty tight due the tabs on the snap-in buttons applying a little pressure.  But the main reason I would like the buttons I described is so I wouldn't have to drill out my holes, or rely on a hack to get them to fit.  

It would be very nice to be able to do a no-tools swap of standard horizontal pushbuttons for these buttons.  I know a lot of fighting game players on shoryuken.com would jump at this opportunity.

I can see how the plunger on the OBSF and an IL horizontal pushbutton differ now that I've looked at them critically.  The plunger on the OBSF goes all the way to the bottom of the hole, but the Il has a little lip that stops it, and then there are two legs that go further down to press the microswitch.  A spring gives the button a quick return.

Is there a way the two designs can be combined?  I'm envisioning a button that has a lip inside the hole that will limit the plunger to the length of the standard OBSF, and then the slotted tab inside the middle of the OBSF will extend further down into the hole in the same way the legs do on the IL button.  That tab will connect to the switch.  I think this will circumvent the issue of the plunger sticking due to excessive length.

I'm not sure the extra length on the button will change the reaction of the button.  The extra weight that the switch has to push back up should be negligible.   I doubt it's even a gram.  The length is longer, but the activation time should be the same, since the bottom of the button is the same distance from the switch as it was originally.

The buttons don't even have to be as long as IL or Happ buttons.  Just being 1/2" longer than the current OBSF's would be enough.

[RandyT]

I guess my first question after all of that is what it is that makes the Sanwa buttons attractive?  It it the short throw? An instantaneous response?  Please elaborate, since you are a fan of them.  FWIW, both of those things aren't necessarily positives for the BYOAC crowd.

My biggest concern about something new like this is the limited audience.  While they might be favored by those who like the Sanwa's, it sounds like the only real market would be for those looking to replace the standard "old-school" buttons with the Japanese style.  The folks who are building new fighter panels would probably just stick to the Sanwas, so where's the potential market?

Just the tooling for something like this would be about $7k.  Ya gotta sell a lot of buttons to ever see that money again.

RandyT

[Jack Burton]

The attractiveness of Sanwa buttons is the very little deadzone involved in pushing the button combined with the soft feel and short throw.  The wide flat surface of the button is also preferred by fighting game players to the concave shaped buttons.  

The potential market would be those players who have older custom arcade sticks, like a MAS stick, or those who have American style cabinets who would like to replace their buttons with Sanwas, but do not want to go through the effort involved in drilling the holes out and routing the bottom of their panel.  

These players are not all fighting gamers either.  In recent years a small community of players who are fans of candy cabs and Japanese arcade games has emerged.  Most of these players want a candy cab, but they are not very common or available, and they have settled for an American style cab.  I am one of them.  They would welcome a button that is functionally very similar to an OBSF.

I personally would be putting these into my MAS stick, my cab, and my custom joystick.  This combined with a Seimitsu LS-56 + Bat top would give a Japanese feel, but would preserve the case and the ability to switch back to American parts.

I don't think you would make any money on this.  Maybe if you charged $5 a button you would, but I'm not sure people would be willing to buy at that price.  OBSF's used to sell around that though, so you never know.  But for 7k that would mean you would have to sell 1400 buttons to break even, and I don't think there would be even half of that many people interested.  

But if you could make a button that was once cheaper and better than Sanwas, then I think you would find a goldmine.  Sanwa buttons always seemed overpriced and less durable to me, even though their performance was great.

It's just one of those fanciful things.  There are a dozen more out there that I think about occasionally.

An ArcadeVGA like graphics card that supports native arcade resolution output over composite, S-video, and component video would be another thing I have always wanted.  This one is probably more possible, but has yet to see any development.

[RandyT]

The attractiveness of Sanwa buttons is the very little deadzone involved in pushing the button combined with the soft feel and short throw.  The wide flat surface of the button is also preferred by fighting game players to the concave shaped buttons.  

There's something on the horizon and that's all I can say for now.  It may or may not be appealing to your crowd.  I guess we will have to wait and see.

I don't think you would make any money on this.  Maybe if you charged $5 a button you would, but I'm not sure people would be willing to buy at that price.  OBSF's used to sell around that though, so you never know.  But for 7k that would mean you would have to sell 1400 buttons to break even, and I don't think there would be even half of that many people interested.  

And of course, a higher price would drive folks to the Sanwas, this cutting the market again.  Also, your 1400 number is way off.  The buttons aren't free .

RandyT

[kagaden]

I'd buy em to try em on my wood panel.

Really the big difference I see is that sanwa buttons are really physically flat & soft, which makes it easier to roll your hand over the buttons for some technically ridiculous combo's in SF4. Check out Yeb's Gen video's sometime... every time he does a handslap combo with Gen he's rolling his fingers over 8 buttons within 2-3 frames. Try doing this on happs and you'll break your finger at how high the mounting + button sit... even convex buttons.

[kowal]

Ultimarc sell iL PSL
HAPP sell iL PSL-L
two different models
I will PSL from ultimarc - lower height
I never have PSL-L from iL for comparison to new HAPP PSL-L
but ABS on new happ buttons look identical, only micro sux  - megacrap microswitch

and last thing iL logo is only on 4 colours (white, blue) next 4 is blank

personaly for old games fighter (UMK3) and shooter (1 shot = 1 laser) I use only iL buttons
for new fighters GGXX I use sanwa and for STG shooter I use Seimitsu or sanwa RG buttons

[Beretta]

Jack Burton everything you mention as a positive i would personally take as a negative.

i can only speak for my self here but i pretty much hate Japanese controls, both buttons and joysticks.

the short throw is unattractive, and the convex or flat buttons just feel alien.

and those "candy cabs" those look like crap imo.. are'nt they made out of plastic? 
pfft i think they make'em short just to save money on material..

i'll take good old fashion American wood cab anyday, gimmie those oldschool deep concave buttons.. they feel like home to me.

[Jack Burton]

Jack Burton everything you mention as a positive i would personally take as a negative.

i can only speak for my self here but i pretty much hate Japanese controls, both buttons and joysticks.

the short throw is unattractive, and the convex or flat buttons just feel alien.

and those "candy cabs" those look like crap imo.. are'nt they made out of plastic?  
pfft i think they make'em short just to save money on material..

i'll take good old fashion American wood cab anyday, gimmie those oldschool deep concave buttons.. they feel like home to me.

And there are those who would disagree with every single thing you have said.  

If you go to one of the few modern arcades still making money in America you will find candy cabs and other sit-down models.  They will almost always come with Sanwa or Seimitsu controls  They are the favorite design of players who are playing in arcades everyday, and at home.

Their desire for an authentic Japanese arcade experience is no different from yours for an authentic old school American arcade experience.  

For the record candy cabs construction materials vary a lot.  They can be made out of metal, fiberglass, plastic, and even wood.  

If you think they are cheap looking in photos your opinion will be changed dramatically if you ever have the experience playing them.

I've played on Astro City, Blast City, Naomi, and Neo 29 cabs.  They were all absolutely rock solid.  For Japanese fighting games and shmups they are best.

[Beretta]

*said some stuff*

i knew you'd have a respones simliar to that which is exactly why i preemptively trumped you with this.

i can only speak for my self here but i pretty much hate Japanese controls, both buttons and joysticks.

to be honest i wouldn't take a candy cab if you gave it to me, unless it was for the sole purpose of stripping it for parts.

because it is completely foreign to classic cabinet design in America.

further more although i sometimes like to sit on a stool i do not want to be forced to sit down to play and in some cases i prefer to stand.

imo those candy cabs are inferior in design for the above reason, the controls you can argue a personal preference if you like.

if you wanna say it's the most preferred then you need to provide some proof to use that argument cause quite frankly i dont believe that's the case.. in Japan probably, in America HIGHLY doubtful.. and anywhere else i have no clue.

i'd guess what you said was true you'd find a lot of people selling them.. you dont.. but you can find Happ like mad, perhaps it's cause they're cheaper but what ever the reason you dont see convex buttons gracing most cabinets in the wild or even on this site.


EDIT: couple typos

[mytymaus007]

When in doubt with HAPP  there is always LEAFSWITCH buttons

[kowal]

first thing:
- old candy cab is the same oldschool how american, different is only style not age.
candy cab is closer to coctail oldschoolcab, candy is only natural evolution metal coctail cab in japan, shape candy it is not a "modern" style cab
- seimitsu is very old firm how Wico, LS32 is evolution LS30 this stick is very very old (beginning of '80). HAPP super and competion is "new" construction (beginning of '90) - present american stick is "modern"
- japanese cab are more durable 80%
- and jap stick it is not short throw stick, short is only Suzo stick and other Euro old style fashion stick like Competion Pro
- american "old fashion" it looks how confessional from Ireland or Poland, only W/O priest in inside

[CheffoJeffo]

- japanese cab are more durable 80%

I'm not convinced of this one ... although it could be the way that I look at things.

Every candy that I have ever seen come off route needs about as much attention as a wooden cab coming off route, despite being younger.

- american "old fashion" it looks how confessional from Ireland or Poland, only W/O priest in inside

 

[RandyT]

first thing:
- old candy cab is the same oldschool how american, different is only style not age.
candy cab is closer to coctail oldschoolcab, candy is only natural evolution metal coctail cab in japan, shape candy it is not a "modern" style cab

The Japanese have been sitting on their keisters while playing pachinko for a hell of a lot longer than there have been arcade games.  The Candy cabs are simply the result of the cultural difference.  Either you like the idea, or you don't.  It's not hard to imagine folks who lived through the 80's in the USA not caring much for the design.

- japanese cab are more durable 80%

Not. 

- american "old fashion" it looks how confessional from Ireland or Poland, only W/O priest in inside

So that's where all of our classic cabinets have been going.....I was wondering  .

RandyT

[Ginsu Victim]

Thanks for translating some of that broken English for me.

[kowal]

japanese cab are more durable 80%

sorry i lost "80% is metal"
metal does not rot, easy to paint it again
personally I like Williams cab design (MK series)
in euro on '80 I never see candy cab (sometime jap metal coctail) and wood cab is normal for me but I never say "candy cab it is not oldschool" because it is nonsense

[Grasshopper]

It's a bit of a stretch to describe the wooden cabinets as being quintessentially American. In the eighties practically all cabinets, including the Japanese ones, were made of wood.

The Japanese kick started the video games craze with classic games such as Pacman, Space Invaders, Donkey Kong etc. All of those games were housed in wooden cabinets.

[RandyT]

It's a bit of a stretch to describe the wooden cabinets as being quintessentially American. In the eighties practically all cabinets, including the Japanese ones, were made of wood.

The Japanese kick started the video games craze with classic games such as Pacman, Space Invaders, Donkey Kong etc. All of those games were housed in wooden cabinets.

Check your history.  There were a lot of amusement machines in that same form, which were not even video based, long before Pac-Man was a twinkle in Toru Iwatani's eye.

Midway, the eventual distributor of PacMan, was an American corporation which had machines on location several years before the earliest Japanese video imports started arriving.  It's more than just a little likely that these wooden cabinets coming from Japan were designed that way so they would fit with what the U.S. industry was already doing for many years.

RandyT

[CheffoJeffo]

japanese cab are more durable 80%

sorry i lost "80% is metal"
metal does not rot, easy to paint it again

Honest question -- have you ever restored wooden and metal cabs ?

I ask because among the items that always require restoration on any cab are the metal parts (e.g. coin door or control panel) and they typically require more effort than the wooden parts.

I don't know anybody who does restoration who would make a statement like "japanese cabs are 80% more durable".

[CheffoJeffo]

It's a bit of a stretch to describe the wooden cabinets as being quintessentially American. In the eighties practically all cabinets, including the Japanese ones, were made of wood.

The Japanese kick started the video games craze with classic games such as Pacman, Space Invaders, Donkey Kong etc. All of those games were housed in wooden cabinets.

Check your history.  There were a lot of amusement machines in that same form, which were not even video based, long before Pac-Man was a twinkle in Toru Iwatani's eye.

Midway, the eventual distributor of PacMan, was an American corporation which had machines on location several years before the earliest Japanese video imports started arriving.  It's more than just a little likely that these wooden cabinets coming from Japan were designed that way so they would fit with what the U.S. industry was already doing for many years.

Interesting observation ... I was going to suggest to kowal earlier that Candy cabs look more like US, particularly Atari, cabs from the 70s than anything else (certainly not like cocktails!).

The big difference in my mind is the height of the CP.

[RandyT]

Interesting observation ... I was going to suggest to kowal earlier that Candy cabs look more like US, particularly Atari, cabs from the 70s than anything else (certainly not like cocktails!).

The big difference in my mind is the height of the CP.

Yep, there does seem to be a connection with this one.....just modified for the sit-down gaming culture.  Also interesting.

[Beretta]

oh i whole heartily apologize for my ignorance on the origins of the "candy cab"
honestly you can't much blame me though i have never actually seen one in the person here in America.

now 80% might be made out of metal but the ones i've seen look awful lot like plastic, this would imply a newer design then the "old school" wooden cabs found in America because of the material being used.

to clear up something i was'nt saying only US cabs was wooden i was saying that pretty much all cabs i ever seen was made out of wood here in the US.

ya metal does'nt rot, it rusts (assuming it's made of iron/steal which i would assume.) it also dints where wood would take a blow and bounce back in most cases.

maybe 80% are metal, the ones i looked at i could swore was plastic.. regardless of material used i still consider them to be a inferior design due to having to sit down to play.. and personally find them displeasing to the eye, this may sound strange but they dont seem to have much "character" to them.. they seems sort of plan and utilitarian, where as most (but not all) cabs i see in the US have a sort of charm a curve here a slope there.

those who like the design have at it, if someone posted one on here i wouldn't dream of being so rude to tell them it sucks for that reason alone, if i was over at someones house i'd probably still play one.. but personally one would never be welcome in my house i truly dislike them that much.

[evitagen]

I don't mind the new Happs.

By the way RandyT, I'll be ordering parts for a new cabinet I'm making in the near future and I was wondering if you were going to sell convex happs buttons?  I've always used concave until I tried a stick that had convex happs and I really did prefer them, which is weird because I hate Sanwa's.

I've ordered from you before so if you were able to sell them I'd order from you again with no hesitation.  Still going to buy my sticks and accessories from you though, but I'd love to get everything all at once.

Thanks!

[Gatsu]

I grew up in the U.S. during the 80s and so I love the woody cabs. The Midway MK's.....etc. But I also have been a huge fan of japanese culture through anime, manga, import games and what have you. So I also appreciate their style arcade cabinets as well.

I'll take both cabinets any day....and am comfortable using a happ comp stick or a sanwa JLF. Same with buttons. I can use both. Just depends on the game experience i want.

Both have their pros and cons. But both play games that we all grew up enjoying. So.

Game on. heh

[RandyT]

I don't mind the new Happs.

By the way RandyT, I'll be ordering parts for a new cabinet I'm making in the near future and I was wondering if you were going to sell convex happs buttons?  I've always used concave until I tried a stick that had convex happs and I really did prefer them, which is weird because I hate Sanwa's.

I've ordered from you before so if you were able to sell them I'd order from you again with no hesitation.  Still going to buy my sticks and accessories from you though, but I'd love to get everything all at once.

Thanks!

I expect to have a premium convex offering within a month, but they will cost a little more than the HAPP convex buttons.  I can't elaborate at the moment, but you might want to wait to see if these might be something you are interested in.  Otherwise, send me an email with what you need and I'll get some of the HAPP variety in for you.

RandyT

[evitagen]

I expect to have a premium convex offering within a month, but they will cost a little more than the HAPP convex buttons.  I can't elaborate at the moment, but you might want to wait to see if these might be something you are interested in.  Otherwise, send me an email with what you need and I'll get some of the HAPP variety in for you.

RandyT

Perfect, I won't be ready to order for at least a month anyway.  If I don't dig the premium buttons you're getting I'll still shoot you an email before I order for the standard happs convex buttons to go along with the rest of the stuff I'll need.  Thanks for hooking me up!

[Ummon]

to be honest i wouldn't take a candy cab if you gave it to me, unless it was for the sole purpose of stripping it for parts.

because it is completely foreign to classic cabinet design in America.

Not true. Familiar with the Williams Duramold (tm) cabs?

I thought wood grain paneled cabs in the early 80s looked like 'old fart' cabs. Give me a ---smurfing--- break.

As for controls, I've always hated the throw in all of them. Probly one reason I didn't like arcade games as much as I might've in the early 80s was precisely because of this. Hell, I'd prefer half the throw on the sanwas or seimitsus on my Impress.

further more although i sometimes like to sit on a stool i do not want to be forced to sit down to play and in some cases i prefer to stand.

They make stands for candys, you know. I prefer luxury, though.