Black Tiger dedicated??

[IG-88]

Did this game ever have it's own dedicated cab? KLOV says yes but I always thought it was a conversion kit only...

[Kevin Mullins]

Any time I have a question like that.... the first thing I do is look up any available manuals and flyers for a particular game. You can get a good general idea almost immediately from those two things.
And then I'll generally browse for images of that same particular game and look for consistencies.

Do the guys over at KLOV have a picture of a dedicated ?

[Epyx]

One of my favourite games of all time and one that I am pretty sure is conversion only....but pretty sure isn't 100%

[IG-88]

There are a couple pics that don't really help much. What gave me question was that it said a few VAPS Memebers have some dedicated cabs.

Good idea about the manuals, shouldve thought of that.

[Epyx]

Here is the manual in pdf:

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/ARCADE/A-J/Black%20Tiger%20%5BInstructions%5D%20%5BEnglish%5D.pdf

Yep, conversion.  I love the part about "Keeping the quarters flowing".  The problem is even on difficult its an easy game to get good at quickly.  Although Black Dragon is a lot more difficult.

[u_rebelscum]

"Black Tiger revision"?  Doesn't that hint this manual isn't for the first (maybe dedicated) release?


The thing about using the manuals is that of the many games that came out in both conversion and dedicated have both versions of manuals.  So just because you found the conversion/kit manual doesn't always mean it only came as a conversion.

For example, Gauntlet: Dark Legacy came out in two sizes of dedicated cads and two conversion kits, and thus has four different manuals: 27" dedicated, 39" (showcase) dedicated, universal conversion kit, and upgrade from Legends kit.  Add that I've only seen manuals for the 27" Legends cab, but the DL upgrade manual says there were 39" Legends cabs to convert from.

I'm not saying klov is the truth to always follow , but finding a conversion manual does not say there wasn't a dedicated. 

[Kevin Mullins]

"Black Tiger revision"?  Doesn't that hint this manual isn't for the first (maybe dedicated) release?

Could just be a "revised" manual ....... for the kit.
'Revision" is also a term used to mean "modification".  (i.e. kit)

The thing about using the manuals is that of the many games that came out in both conversion and dedicated have both versions of manuals.  So just because you found the conversion/kit manual doesn't always mean it only came as a conversion.

I agree one source of information is never all inclusive.

But if you were to gather information from several sources and put them all together, kinda like a puzzle..... then what do you have?

So say I check 5-6 sources for manuals and all I find are KIT manuals and then I check all the flyers I can find and none show a cabinet of any kind and then I search the internet for any and all images of cabinets and can clearly tell they are conversions ..... then what would my conclusion be?

[Kevin Mullins]

Oh..... and in this particular case ROMSTAR is notorious for kits as they simply licensed from other companies.

So the question should really be if CAPCOM ever put out a dedicated cabinet. (?)
(oh wait.... find me anything Capcom in a dedicated cabinet)

[u_rebelscum]

Note, I always was told (mame.net & mameworld.org/info forums) that Black Tiger was conversion only.  I think it's conversion only.  Sorry if I sounded like I think there was a dedicated cab.

It's more the principal of using the internet as a source of "the truth" I'm questioning.

...I agree one source of information is never all inclusive.

But if you were to gather information from several sources and put them all together.

Agree, multiple independent sources are much better than a single source, but...

...So say I check 5-6 sources for manuals and all I find are KIT manuals...

When 4-5 sites copy all the other sites info, so they have (and don't have) the same stuff? 
The two sites I saw on Black Tiger look like copies of the same scan, and I doubt there are more than two different scans (if that) among the 5-6 sites.  The two sites I searched didn't have a Black Dragon manual, didn't have Electrocoin (UK) Black Tiger, didn't have a EU campcom Black Tiger manual.  Where's the Gauntlet Legends Kit (conversion) manual?

... and then I check all the flyers I can find and none show a cabinet of any kind and then I search the internet for any and all images of cabinets and can clearly tell they are conversions ..... then what would my conclusion be?

Now these are much better independent points of info.  Manuals + flyers + all pictures of cabs look like conversions = three sources.  I'm not including the stuff I heard in the forums over the years as another source because AFAIK, their conclusions are from the same above three "sources". 

The flyers are a great second source, as I used in my examples above.  OTOH, they also can be used to shown they aren't perfect either.  If I looked for a german manual, flyer, or romset of Dig Dug a year ago, I wouldn't find any on the internet; but in 2009-06-16 a german flyer was posted at arcadeflyers.com.  Does this mean the german version didn't exist until this year, and now does?


So, while I agree black tiger was probably released only as a kit in the US, especially backed with the evidence you mensioned, I'm less sure about capcom not releasing Black Dragon pre-installed in a factory produced cab.  (Yeah, capcom didn't game dedicated much besides street fighter, but they did release games inside cabs, not just conversion/upgrade kits)

[IG-88]

I have to agree that it looks like it was only a kit, I love the game and been playing it for years, and have only seen it in hacked up conversions.

I also agree that KLOV isn't always accurate. Here is what got me to thinking about it:

VAPS Arcade Census

GAMES OWNED, WANTED, or FOR SALE BY MEMBERS OF THE VIDEO ARCADE PRESERVATION SOCIETY
Very Common - There are 79 known instances of Black Tiger owned by one of our 900 members. Of these, 7 of them are original dedicated machines, 11 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards (and possibly cabinet graphics) have been placed in (and on) another game cabinet, and 61 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

What got me looking in the first place was that I think I am at a place in my life where I can finally start collecting the actual machines of my youth and not have to play emulated. While this is not a "grail" by any means it would surely be nice to have in the collection. Maybe if we decide that there isn't a dedicated cab, I should just design my own 

[maxmix]

It's funny this, I could have sworn I had seen original dedicated back in the day, here in Glasgow, Scotland...

I was one of the few people that was on it for hours at a time etc...

Back in the day.... A bit fuzzy now though....

maxmix

[Epyx]

We could always message one of the KLOV guys who it says has a dedicated machine. I took a look and most of the ones that have a dedicated have it classified (when you drill down) as dedicated/not original...I also see a category original/dedicated, so maybe that means those 7 are dedicated conversion machines as opposed to original releases?

[RayB]

Yeah Epyx, there's been some confusion among people who think that 1 game in a cabinet = dedicated. Or 1 game in a cabinet with all the right artwork = dedicated. Then there's the argument that dedicated means FACTORY dedicated. I'm glad they at least have a distinction between the two in there.

[u_rebelscum]

... there's been some confusion among people who think that 1 game in a cabinet = dedicated. Or 1 game in a cabinet with all the right artwork = dedicated. Then there's the argument that dedicated means FACTORY dedicated. I'm glad they at least have a distinction between the two in there.

Shouldn't there be three, then?  (I always thought it was the last.)  I can see some confusion still for those who think it means the middle, and those who can't tell between a clean convertion and a factory dedicated.

It's funny this, I could have sworn I had seen original dedicated back in the day, here in Glasgow, Scotland...

The game was released by a different company there than in the US.  (US = romstar, UK = electrocoin)  So it's possible that electrocoin did release a factory direct original even if romstar didn't.  The only manual online is from romstar, even though we know electrocoin released for UK and (should have) had their own manual.  (Could have been a copy of romstar's minus the "romstar" printed all over it.)  So the only evidence is from the flyers; the manuals don't say one way or the other at all.

[RayB]

Flyer says conversion kit US:
http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer&db=videodb&id=126&image=1

[Epyx]

Just looking at that nice flyer makes we want to play this game. I can pretty easily win the game but its one of the rare games I can just keep playing and playing.

[IG-88]

I did post this question over on the KLOV forums and got one legit PM and one smart---I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- reply.  The legit PM from prOk stated that there was indeed a dedicated version. Mostly seen in old Tron cabs.

[Epyx]

Hmm...check out this thread from our forums on this very subject:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82761.10;wap2

In particular this line:

Two Tigers was the Tron conversion.  Black Tiger was a Jamma game with no dedicated cab. 

[IG-88]

Well, most of the evidence is leaning towards it being a kit only IMHO. Don't you think?

[Epyx]

Yep

[ahofle]

Just looking at that nice flyer makes we want to play this game. I can pretty easily win the game but its one of the rare games I can just keep playing and playing.

So much for "keeping the quarters flowing." 

[Epyx]

So much for "keeping the quarters flowing."

Lol, that was my point exactly with my quote above...this game was great but let's face it you had to be pretty bad to last only 3 minutes.

[CrazyKongFan]

The legit PM from prOk stated that there was indeed a dedicated version. Mostly seen in old Tron cabs.

How can it be dedicated if it's in an old Tron cab?

[IG-88]

I meant to say; but mostly seen in old Tron cabs

[RayB]

Tron cab = conversion (or were you trying to be funny?)

[IG-88]

Sorry, here is his quote:

There was a dedicated version, but most you see are in Tron converted cabs.

[RayB]

LOL. Prok! you should know better!

[IG-88]

Ya he should!! Had me going for a while

[clok]

I do believe around that time (as many have stated) dedicated was on the way out. Generic one size fits all cabs with stickers for game where the norm. So a dedicated would for all intents just be the Generic Romstar/capcom cab with Black Tiger stickers/etc on it (again, as others have stated). While it may have come that way new, I'm not sure I would call it dedicated. Sure it was put togther with Black Tiger inside it and had no extra stuff, but that same cab could have come with other games.

As in 1,000 empty Capcom cabs sitting in a row, all the same. Guy is building a Black tiger, he pulls any of those cabs and builds it. Same day another guy is building a 1943 or Bonic Comando and he pulls one of the same cabs. The only part that is different is the Control Panel, stickers on side, marquee.. actual board inside.

I would swear the same guy did background art for Black tiger and bionic Commando.... Wonder?

[prOk]

LOL. Prok! you should know better!

Lol.. actually I did realize my mistake (I was mixing Black Tiger up with Two Tigers which is why I deleted my reply to that thread in the first place within minutes of posting) but I was too late deleting it, he'd already read it

[IG-88]

No harm, no foul. Got some good info. Just what I needed/wanted. This forum is miles ahead of most others out there, that's for sure!