MVS-99-6 - Project on hold until further notice (2014-03-10)

[cboy]

I'm really liking this.....

[vrf]

From the cardboard mockup, it seems the LCD will not be able to rotate. It looks more possible in the illustration afterward, though.

I personally would skip the rotating LCD in the interest of making the cab as compact as possible.

The profile looks GREAT with those slight curves added.

[Yvan256]

could you share your plans to this one once you have everything set?

Once everything is built and I'm sure of all the data in the Sketchup model, sure why not! As long as we start calling these "desktop cabinets". Bartops are so much bigger it's not even funny. 

[Yvan256]

From the cardboard mockup, it seems the LCD will not be able to rotate. It looks more possible in the illustration afterward, though.

I personally would skip the rotating LCD in the interest of making the cab as compact as possible.

The profile looks GREAT with those slight curves added.

Yeah I know, I'm looking at the cardboard mockup right now and even in person it's hard to believe, but I tried with the real LCD panel and there's enough room. I even have a huge 1/16" gap on each side when rotating! 

Worst case scenario I'll cut the inside walls to make room for the rotation.

And as for removing the rotating display to make it as compact as possible, well it only adds 1".

The width comes from a lot of things, actually:
- The mini-ITX motherboard is 6.75", might as well make it 7" wide so it has a bit of room on each sides.
- The narrowest it gets the more cramped the controls gets.
- The wider it gets, the more puny the mini-marquee LCD will look.

I have to balance everything between the control panel, LCD marquee, rotating display... and 8" is the magic number for the parts I'm using. With different parts you might need to make it 7" wide, with other parts it would be 9". It all depends, otherwise things will look out of place such as those 30" wide cabinets with 14" LCDs in the middle of a huge black bezel. It's still playable but it doesn't look right.

As for the profile, that's why I'm testing everything in Sketchup, then doing small parts of the cab for real so I can test them.

A few hours ago I cut the sides near the control panel (sort of the front of the sides) just so I could test real-world problems with the positions of the joystick and buttons relative to the 1/4" edge of the sides panels vs the control panel.



The top of the test control panels are made of masonite which is only 1/8" thick. It's strong enough to play however since it's only 8" wide. It's also much easier and a lot cheaper to make many iterations and modifications if needed. Then I hook everything to a USB mini-PAC and I test with MAME on my Mac mini. After all I'm testing CP usability here, not the mini-ITX board of the cab.

[shatteredzman]

Your rotating monitor plan looks a lot like mine. I am interested to see how you do yours.

[Bender]

This is awesome don't know how I missed it

can't wait to see the lcd in the marquee, and a rotating monitor in an 8" cab just so cool!

[Yvan256]

Your rotating monitor plan looks a lot like mine. I am interested to see how you do yours.

Well so far all I have is a small 4" rotating plate ("lazy susan", Madico 27661). I did work fine for my previous cabinet (manual rotation) and the weight of the LCD isn't that much (about 400 grams), I don't think a small 5 volts motor will have any problem rotating the whole thing. I'm thinking LEGO motor and gears controlled by a small PIC micrcontroller with limit switches, since I'm going to need a PIC for my 7-segment credit coin counter anyway. Hopefully I will be able to have the computer send a rotation signal via the parallel port to the PIC.

[Yvan256]

This is awesome don't know how I missed it

can't wait to see the lcd in the marquee, and a rotating monitor in an 8" cab just so cool!

Yeah well that LCD is giving me a lot of headaches... You see, there is supposed to be only two different types of controllers. I have tried the code for both and nothing seems to work.

And if you look at the pictures, it seems I have a third, unknown LCD type:


Epson controller (notice the dark connector in the red circle, along with the white area around the silver strip which is the controller itself):




Philips controller (notice the green connector with the NXP white text, along with the dark area around the controller):




Well, wouldn't you know it, I have a third, different LCD (dark connector like an Epson but dark area around the controller like a Philips):



And I don't care if the little red sticker says "Epson", the Epson controller codes don't seem to work. 

[shatteredzman]

Your rotating monitor plan looks a lot like mine. I am interested to see how you do yours.

Well so far all I have is a small 4" rotating plate ("lazy susan", Madico 27661). I did work fine for my previous cabinet (manual rotation) and the weight of the LCD isn't that much (about 400 grams), I don't think a small 5 volts motor will have any problem rotating the whole thing. I'm thinking LEGO motor and gears controlled by a small PIC micrcontroller with limit switches, since I'm going to need a PIC for my 7-segment credit coin counter anyway. Hopefully I will be able to have the computer send a rotation signal via the parallel port to the PIC.

That is a lot more sophisticated than my design. I turn mine manually because I did not want to have more things that could break. I wish I had the skill to do a automatic rotation like you are doing.

[vrf]

well here's something cool....

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elotrolado.net%2Fhilo_pocket-neo-arcade-2-0_1251492&sl=auto&tl=en&history_state0=

[cboy]

I saw that today on Engadget....thought it was cool. The buttons are HUGE thou haha

[Yvan256]

Not a huge update, but here is the control panel with the Sanwa JLF joystick and the four Sanwa 24mm buttons. Hopefully I'll be able to fit the "player start", "menu", "quit" and "pause" buttons along with the two 8mm 7-segment displays for the coin counter.



As mentioned earlier I also had to cut the joystick plate at the top and bottom to have enough room underneath the control panel.  I had to redo the CP twice because of small errors in planning (support beams, everything positioned 12mm too low, etc...)



You can compare with the original plate if you go to www.lizardlick.com.

[Yvan256]

Looks a lot better even with a black and white paper print overlay. The artwork needs to be redrawn a bit because the buttons were not supposed to be that far to the right at first, it's missing round corners in the "red with white stripes" area, etc. But it still gives you a pretty good idea.



The player start, pause, menu and quit buttons are still to be found. At the beginning I was planning on using completely white Sanwa SDM-20 buttons but they would be way too big for the CP, they're almost twice the size of the white circles in the overlay above.

I also made a mistake in the size of the 7-segment displays, they will be roughly twice the size shown above, unless I can find digits smaller than 7.62mm.

[vrf]

Nice work so far!

For the small buttons, you could maybe use the Happ mini buttons with a black bezel and white center...

http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/49057700.htm

The measurements are there for you to see if they could work.

[javeryh]

Very nice!  Have you thought of maybe moving the buttons 1/8" closer - just far enough apart so that the bezels have about 1/16" between them?  This would give the appearance of a little more room on the CP.

Also, check out Bender's thread (at the bottom) for small buttons - they might work for you.   Looks great so far!  

[Yvan256]

Nice work so far!

For the small buttons, you could maybe use the Happ mini buttons with a black bezel and white center...

http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/49057700.htm

The measurements are there for you to see if they could work.

Thanks!

The circles on the printed overlay above are 0.375" in diameter. The Happ mini button "type A" bezel is 0.75" in diameter which is the same as the Sanwa SDM-20.

The SDM-20 seems to be available in all-white, which would be better since the player buttons on the MVS cabinets were regular white buttons like the A, B, C and D buttons. I just don't have the room for four additional 24mm buttons (white 0.375" circles = 10mm) otherwise I wouldn't have this problem right now. 

[Yvan256]

Very nice!  Have you thought of maybe moving the buttons 1/8" closer - just far enough apart so that the bezels have about 1/16" between them?  This would give the appearance of a little more room on the CP.

Also, check out Bender's thread (at the bottom) for small buttons - they might work for you.   Looks great so far!  

Yes, moving the buttons closer together would probably look better and give me more room on the right for the artwork. Then again I really don't feel like re-doing this CP a fourth time. I'll have to see how it looks once the artwork is corrected for the current layout.

As for those buttons, they don't seem to be available in all-white. I'm beginning to think I'll have to do custom buttons, using the Happ "type D" button (95-0011-00) at the bottom and a custom button top on top of it.

[vrf]

Maybe you could re-color the black buttons with white vinyl dye.

[Yvan256]

Maybe you could re-color the black buttons with white vinyl dye.

I just read a bit about vinyl dye, didn't even know that stuff existed. Looks like a solid option and would allow me to get any button as long as the size and shape fits, I would simply need to dye it white. Thanks for the tip!

However, the more I think about it, if I have to re-do the CP once again to put the main buttons closer together I might as well try and see if I could make the CP deeper and simply use those white SDM-20... The 7-segment digits in DIP packaging seem to be available in 7.62mm at the smallest (no way I'm soldering surface-mount digits) not to mention that the 5mm digits are two single-digit side by side, it just doesn't look right, it has to be a double digit display. Making the CP deeper would offset the bigger size of the digits, as it is now they look too big for the "circled area" with the player and control buttons...

And I was so glad to be finally done with that CP yesterday... 

[Bender]

would white buttons with a black base work?

I've seen some small buttons like that somewhere

[Yvan256]

would white buttons with a black base work?

I've seen some small buttons like that somewhere

Nope, it has to be all-white buttons:



Are you thinking about the Sanwa SDM-18? I have one right here in front of me. I might end up being the SDM-18 with the base vinyl dyed white. Or I might just not use the base at all and glue the button itself on top of those small Happ test switches (I already have those).

Relative to the size of the 7-segment I'll probably end up using, however, the SDM-20 would be a perfect fit. I just don't know how ArcadeShop.de can have all-white buttons for sale when Sanwa's own website doesn't list such a thing. Are they vinyl dyeing buttons one by one or is Sanwa's website just not up-to-date? 

... I so didn't want to have to re-do that %$@ CP again but it looks like I won't have a choice... and all that trouble only to make it 0.5" deeper... 

[javeryh]

You have to remake it otherwise it will be all you think about whenever you play the cab.  An extra few hours of work is totally worth it.

[Yvan256]

You have to remake it otherwise it will be all you think about whenever you play the cab.  An extra few hours of work is totally worth it.

Indeed, knowing myself that would probably bug me a lot. Better fix it before going any further in the project. I got a bit of spare room in the cabinet depth, so far the modification works in Sketchup. I'll need to re-cut the bottom panel of the marquee, otherwise there's not much modification to do aside from where components are located.

Is there anyone who sells those all-white Sanwa SDM-20 buttons apart from ArcadeShop.de? Their prices for the buttons are in the ballpark, however the shipping cost from Germany to Canada is a bit high for only 10 small buttons.

And I'm still waiting for someone with a Neo-Geo MV-LED board to tell me the part number of those 7-segment displays. 

[vrf]

Have you looked at Lizard Lick Amusements? At least you won't have to cross an ocean...

http://www.lizardlick.com/pages/pushbuttons.shtml

[Yvan256]

Have you looked at Lizard Lick Amusements? At least you won't have to cross an ocean...

http://www.lizardlick.com/pages/pushbuttons.shtml

Yeah, I usually order my parts from LizardLick, however I've asked Chad and so far he seems to be as stumped as me as to where ArcadeShop got their all-white Sanwa buttons... 

[Yvan256]

Well, since Shiden makes the buttons that Sanwa is selling as "SDM-20" I thought I would check Shiden's website.

The Shinden part number is SDP-1003C-41 and yes those are available in all-white and all-black (amongst other colors for both the body and button).

The problem is finding these buttons for sale online, apart from ArcadeShop.de which is oversea for me (high shipping cost, long shipping times). I did send the Shinden part number to Chad at LizardLick, we'll see if he can find a source for these.

In the meantime if anyone in north america happens to have three all-white Sanwa SDM-20 / Shinden SDP-1003C-41 buttons in mint condition for sale, please contact me.


In the meantime, I would like to thank javeryh for giving me a push into re-doing the CP for a fourth time. It's not done yet, but the revised CP overlay speaks for itself. The white buttons layout is roughly based on jeffhlewis'  Neo Geo MVS Mini layout.




edit: yes, I know. It's missing the letters in the dark area around the main buttons. 

[Vebbo]

Very nice project u got here Yvan256, lots of brilliant ideas. Hope u find those buttons, i'll keep my fingers crossed. Maby i copy this project one day 

[Yvan256]

I made the front of the unit so I could test playability on such a narrow control panel.



It's not comfortable, but then again it's not unplayable either... I would need about 2 inches on the left of the joystick to be able to rest my hand, but there's just no room for that. To have enough room the joystick would have to be right above the "B" (yellow) button. When doing a micro bartop (desktop cab?) you have to make compromises. 

You can also see the "old vs new" layout for the buttons. The buttons are in the old position and the paper overlay shows the area where the buttons will be on the fourth revision of the CP (see reply #65 above. Thanks again to javeryh for pushing me on redoing the CP until it's right).

[javeryh]

Now that is looking good!  How does it feel?  Are your hands cramped?  It looks good from the picture. 

[cboy]

sweet

[Bender]

if you move the CP up a bit so it's even with the sides(just below the T-molding)
I think you'll find it much more comfortable

[Yvan256]

if you move the CP up a bit so it's even with the sides(just below the T-molding)
I think you'll find it much more comfortable

Yeah I thought about that. However, there's two problems with that solution:
1. My hand would still not have enough room. I need two more inches to the left, lowering the sides would only give me 5/8". The elevated side doesn't really get in the way, it's only 1/4" high.
2. It would lose a lot of its Neo-Geo MVS look, which is something I'm trying to preserve as much as possible (unless I decide otherwise). 

I'll be playing with it a bit more, however it's not that bad as it is right now. Heck, giving me hand cramps after playing too much could actually be a feature: "built-in system to prevent you from playing too long".   

[Yvan256]

Very small update, but for me it's a big part that's almost done.

I cut the sides yesterday, with the usual "print the shape on multiple sheets of paper taped together then trace the contour" trick. I don't think I need to post a photo of that.

Ever tried to make the sides of a cabinet without a router contour bit or a scrollsaw? I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing but I did finish the outside cuts including rounded corners. The inside cuts, however, have been done with round drill bits (3/4" and 2"), now I need to finish the rest of the cuts... I'm thinking jigsaw with guides but I'm not sure.

Here's what the sides look like for now, I guess I would be able to finish cutting if I had access to a scrollsaw for only 15 minutes or so.

[vrf]

She's got a sharp looking profile, all right. 

[Yvan256]

She's got a sharp looking profile, all right. 

Except for minor modifications, it's the same sharp profile as the genuine north american cabs:


Well, except I cut the bottom part and shrank it a lot. 

Talking about sharp looking profiles... is Pixelbox back on track? I still can't believe what happened to it. 

I should be able to finish cutting the sides of MVS-99-6 next weekend, I just remembered I have a Dremel with the right parts to use it as a small router. 

[Yvan256]

I've ordered two 7.62mm dual 7-segment displays (LDD-E304NI-RA and LB-302VF), along with a few PIC12F509 microcontrollers.

Hopefully they should get here today so I will be able to work on the coin mech/coin display hardware before going any further with the control panel, just in case.

The goal is to have a real 7-segment display to the right of the "player start" button, just like a real Neo-Geo MVS cabinet. The display, however, will simply be a dumb coin counter like the one that is usually inside the cabinet (for accounting purposes). The counter will be reset when the cabinet is off.

This way, I don't get the trouble of trying to force something the MAME developers don't want (i.e. a real, working coin mech that can be used commercially) and I still get my working 7-segment display for the coin counter. Heck, I might even go crazy and connect the start button to deduce one from the counter, though in a very dumb way (pressing multiple times would still decrease the counter, no matter what MAME does).

I'm looking forward to cutting that small rectangle hole in the control panel....   

edit: nope, didn't get the parts today... 

[vrf]

There's always tomorrow. But, if not then, there's the two-day wait until Monday... 

[Yvan256]

Control panel version 4.0 (and hopefully the final one)

I don't have the three white buttons for the top row but I did have a yellow/black and a green/black, to get an idea of the final look (without artwork). The mis-shaped rectangle hole is for the 7-segment display.

[Ryglore]

Nice work Yvan! NOw get some white buttons! 

[Yvan256]

Received my parts from Digi-Key!

I will need to re-center the 7-segment display (it's a millimeter or so too low right now), but other than that it's starting to look like a real Neo-Geo control panel!

The 7-segment display + coin mech will be driven by a PIC16F84.