15KHZ on a 31KHZ Monitor

[CheffoJeffo]

You are banging your head, but I think most of us feel that you really don't understand what is meant by a "15KHz signal". Perhaps you are confusing resolution and scan rate. I dunno.

By your logic, ALL VGA cards can do a 15KHz to 31KHz conversion, since you can run MAME on a PC monitor.

[Bluedeath]

Gene We suggest you to read the wiki not because we don't want to help you but because it cointains all the knowledge base needed for you to understand the technical jargon and concept that we commonly use. Don't bang your head, you will undesrand why we insist pople to read the wiki only after you read it. Trust me.


Any how you are excahnging fequency with resolution, "scaled 15kHz" does not exist as concept. The upscaler actually increase the resolution and doubles the the frequency, for instance the original signal 320x240@15.7khz will be trransformed into a 640x480 @31khz.

[Malenko]

he doesnt want to learn or he forgot how. we must as a community spoon feed him every little bit of info, you cannot just post links, he wont click them, you have to copy and paste


Horizontal Scanrate
The single most important value when you look at any monitor's specs is the horizontal scanrate

This value will tell you almost everything you need to know about the monitor's capabilities
It governs the length of time it takes to draw a complete horizontal line on the display


http://pc2jamma.mameworld.info/monitors.html

he cant seem to separate resolution, refresh rate, and scan rate and he thinks they are all terms for the same thing. He also doesnt understand that MAME doesnt output video and that a video card does, as if magically you can run MAME on a PC without a video card and get a display. He also thinks everything is "emulated" and not "true to the code"

read the ---smurfing--- wiki, thats what its there for. Also, your Google-Fu sucks because I found that description on the first page of results

[genesim]

Any how you are excahnging fequency with resolution, "scaled 15kHz" does not exist as concept. The upscaler actually increase the resolution and doubles the the frequency, for instance the original signal 320x240@15.7khz will be trransformed into a 640x480 @31khz.

And that would be classic scaling which answered the first question.   

Though Ahofle answered this earlier, the important thing is that others need to look at my post and adress the differences in quotes specifically...or not instead of telling me what I don't know.   

The rest of it is not important.   This is about signal, not monitor capability.   

There is nothing left to say here.   Civilized discussion is a must.




 

[CheffoJeffo]

the important thing is that others need to look at my post and adress the differences in quotes specifically...or not instead of telling me what I don't know.   

Yeah, because we have all seen how well that works out.

 

[genesim]

Try it, but do it in a civlized manner.  We can start with your quote and the relation it has to others.   I am all ears.

[Hoopz]

Try it, but do it in a civlized manner.  We can start with your quote and the relation it has to others.   I am all ears.

I hope you get answers to your questions as it obvious that there's a disconnect between what your understanding is and what others are trying to explain.  However, I would think that since you are attempting to ask for help that you would demonstrate some common courtesies instead of telling others to be "civlized" (sic).  Perhaps you are frustrated that you're not getting answers to your questions but you reap what you sow.  After how you've treated others, I would hardly expect them to bend over backwards to help you especially when you haven't demonstrated that you've attempted to learn anything on your own.

And if your question is specific to the ArcadeVGA, then why not ask Andy directly?  It's HIS product.   

[genesim]

Ooops, I guess that was too much.

Though my question was posed specificallly to the people I quoted.   Perhaps there are reasons why some people are avoiding the answers.

At any rate if I am to keep paying for my supposed sins of the past, then that is not exactly moving forward is it?

At any rate, it looks like this topic is dead with me.   I can live with that.

[genesim]

Correction to the first line:

Oops, I guess that was too much to ask.

EXTRA EDITION:

your question is specific to the ArcadeVGA, then why not ask Andy directly?  It's HIS product.

Yet another that hasn't taken the time to read my post.   My question isn't about Andy's Arcade VGA either.    Asking him how a product that he make is also not going to help.   

People tell me to read Wiki, how about reading what I actually post.   

Over and out.

[Hoopz]

Yet another that hasn't taken the time to read my post.   My question isn't about Andy's Arcade VGA either.    Asking him how a product that he make is also not going to help.   

So the THREE sets of quotes where you just happen to have comments about the ArcadeVGA that you don't understand and want clarification on aren't about the ArcadeVGA?

Or how about answering the direct question?  

Even on here there is conflicting information.

MAME doesn't produce any video signals. 

all models of the arcadeVGA and advancemame are capable of sending "true" 15khz signals to an arcade monitor.

xxxxxxxxxxx

The arcade monitor would be what is using the 15khz, not the PC monitor.

(referring to Arcade VGA on Ultimarc's site)All the native game resolutions are available on both the arcade and the PC monitor.

xxxxxxx

Then of course this is this.

About the only things that I have seen put out 15KHz are arcade PCBs and CGA video cards

Then I say:

If this is true, then what is the purpose of Advance MAME?

So then a retort happens that says this.

MAME doesn't produce any video signals. 

So what happens...I get corrected with:

all models of the arcadeVGA and advancemame are capable of sending "true" 15khz signals to an arcade monitor.

How about correcting others instead and tell them to read the wiki??

I was originally asking the question, but it seems that I understood it correct from the beginning which is MAME behaves like a PCB when paired with a graphics card, so the end result can be what Arcade VGA offers...either true 15khz signal or scalled 15khz signal to a PC Monitor.

Which goes back to my first post, yeah...Arcade VGA can do a 15khz to 31khz conversion.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Let's see if I can do this without saint being subjected to a flurry of PMs demanding that I be removed from the boards ... fingers crossed ...

Or how about answering the direct question?  

Even on here there is conflicting information.

MAME doesn't produce any video signals. 

all models of the arcadeVGA and advancemame are capable of sending "true" 15khz signals to an arcade monitor.

MAME <> advanceMAME

The official Windows MAME is forced by Windows drivers to select a video mode from a prefixed list of mode sizes and clocks. If the emulated game requires a not standard mode size the emulator must stretch the game image to fit the screen (losing in quality). If the emulated games requires a not standard clock the emulator must play the game without synchronizing with the video vertical retrace (generating the tearing disturb on scrolling game) or display frames for different time (generating a not constant scrolling).

Of particular relevance to your questions and this thread are the following two bits of wisdom:

AdvanceMAME has the ability to directly control your video board to get the best possible video modes with always the correct size and aspect ratio.

On Fixed Frequency monitors you are physically limited on the choice of Horizontal Frequency in the video mode. In this case AdvanceMAME takes care of your monitor's limitations and in the most cases is able to use a video mode with the correct size but not with the correct frequency due to the monitor's limitations. For example for the game "Pac-Man" and a VGA monitor (31.5 kHz) a video mode of 400x288 at 100 Hz (perfect size) is used.

The arcade monitor would be what is using the 15khz, not the PC monitor.

(referring to Arcade VGA on Ultimarc's site)All the native game resolutions are available on both the arcade and the PC monitor.

OBJECTION!! Asked and Answered!

Resolution <> Scan Rate

As I have suggested, far too many times for either of us to be happy about it, you need to at least try to understand the differences between Scan Rate, Resolution and Refresh Rate (also Frame Rate, since it is different and you keep citing it in your rants).

Start with this basic equation:

Refresh Rate = .95 x (Scan Rate / # Lines)

Then of course this is this.

About the only things that I have seen put out 15KHz are arcade PCBs and CGA video cards

Then I say:

If this is true, then what is the purpose of Advance MAME?

So then a retort happens that says this.

MAME doesn't produce any video signals. 

So what happens...I get corrected with:

all models of the arcadeVGA and advancemame are capable of sending "true" 15khz signals to an arcade monitor.

How about correcting others instead and tell them to read the wiki??

I was originally asking the question, but it seems that I understood it correct from the beginning which is MAME behaves like a PCB when paired with a graphics card, so the end result can be what Arcade VGA offers...either true 15khz signal or scalled 15khz signal to a PC Monitor.

Which goes back to my first post, yeah...Arcade VGA can do a 15khz to 31khz conversion.

 

Read as per above ... and, please, do read the wiki and the AdvanceMAME FAQ and related stuff -- there is lots of good information there and there is the added bonus that the wiki won't slap you down when you call it names !

 

[AndyWarne]

The ArcadeVGA card does not send a 15Khz horizontal refresh rate to a PC monitor because, as has been mentioned, this would cause an "out of range" message.
What is does do, however, is present the Mame painted screen at the same resolution it was painted at (provided stretch is disabled).
So it will present for example a 320 X 240 graphical screen on a PC monitor. Normally this low resolution would be impossible to scan at 31Khz but it can be done by sending two horizontal sync pulses per line. Although this technically could be thought of as scaling, it is an exact multiple of two, so there is no distortion, the original resolution is intact.
LCD monitors dont have any concept of scanlines so the result of this is simply larger pixels than a (for example) 640 X 480 resolution, exactly what is required.
When used with an arcade monitor it does actually scan at 15Khz of course.
Andy

[genesim]

People, notice the slight of hand of Cheffo.

Never said MAME equals Advance MAME.

Hence this quote:

If this is true, then what is the purpose of Advance MAME?

Common sense would tell you that was what I was speaking about.   But I am not sure that MAME doesn't do this too because it works with arcade VGA.

But the bigger slight of hand is your completely ignoring your other quote:

About the only things that I have seen put out 15KHz are arcade PCBs and CGA video cards

There has been no confusion.  Care to explain this?  I have asked you numerous times now.   

Supposedly doing a gotcha on Advance MAME vs MAME and completely ignoring my quote is how you often work.

Isn't this another slight of hand?

Again, if people would actually read what I wrote there would be no confusion.   

Not being disrespectful here, but most people would not like this kind of behavior.

That...and I also have never demanded you being removed from the board.   Actually what I have asked is how I can be banned for doing nothing different from what you have been doing.    Big difference.  Another slight of hand.

All this is probably going to get me removed though because I am against the group.

No sarcasm and no "pot shots" here.   I am just speaking the truth.

XXXXXXX

Andy,

Thanks for clarifying what I have been saying from the beginning.   It is a scaling of a 15khz to 31khz.   If it is an exact multiple it the classic definition of scaling.

[genesim]

(referring to Arcade VGA on Ultimarc's site)All the native game resolutions are available on both the arcade and the PC monitor.

OBJECTION!! Asked and Answered!

Resolution <> Scan Rate

As I have suggested, far too many times for either of us to be happy about it, you need to at least try to understand the differences between Scan Rate, Resolution and Refresh Rate (also Frame Rate, since it is different and you keep citing it in your rants).

Start with this basic equation:

Refresh Rate = .95 x (Scan Rate / # Lines)

Another slight of hand.   This quote that I said originally was in reference to the original game resolution being displayed.   It was not saying that it was equivalent in that refresh rate = resolution

The key word is NATIVE.   There is only one way this is truly possible while maintaining the correct refresh rate...SCALING.

Must take the time to comprehend rather passing swift judgement.   

[genesim]

Dagnabbit.

Fixing this line since I can't edit:

The key word is NATIVE.   There is only one way this(MAXIMIZED resolution) is truly possible while maintaining the correct refresh rate(that is scaled to fit within the difined parameters of a modern day PC which cannot take that low refresh rate with said resolution)...SCALING.

[genesim]

Andy,

One more thing, is this not like what current LCD's do with a 120HZ refresh rate where a film print is 24 frames per second..in that the exact frame is shown 5 times per second, hense no jitters?   

Not exact because nothing has to be drawn twice as much for each second, but in the idea of taking out anomolies that crop up when you have an uneven divisor.

What I do know is this...what I argued over a year ago still holds true to now.  MULTIPLE PIXEL representation technology for low resolution.   I was made fun of then, what I knew was happening now.    This is the future my friends.

[genesim]

Another correction..sorry posting at work.

One more thing, is this not like what current LCD's do with a 120HZ refresh rate where a film print is 24 frames per second..in that the exact (24)frames is shown 5 times per second, hense no jitters? 

[ahofle]

About the only things that I have seen put out 15KHz are arcade PCBs and CGA video cards

There has been no confusion.  Care to explain this?  I have asked you numerous times now.   

Supposedly doing a gotcha on Advance MAME vs MAME and completely ignoring my quote is how you often work.

I'm not sure what you find wrong with his quote.  AdvanceMAME won't work correctly without a CGA capable video card.  Neither will Soft15khz.  The ArcadeVGA also has a low enough pixel clock to produce 15khz signals.   

One more thing, is this not like what current LCD's do with a 120HZ refresh rate where a film print is 24 frames per second..in that the exact (24)frames is shown 5 times per second, hense no jitters? 

If you are referring to the artificial 'smoothing' of film on 120hz LCDs (called motion plus, motion flow, etc depending on manufacturer), it's not just showing the same frame 5 times (that would look exactly the same).  It's actually inventing (approximating) frames in between and produces artifacts if you look closely.  This is besides the fact that it makes your movies look like cheesy soap operas or home video, and IMO ruins much of the artistic properties found in film.  Do you actually like how it looks?  I have it turned off on my Samsung.

[genesim]

How are you "inventing" frames when the it is an even divisor?

100hz Samsungs used Motion Plus because of the difference.  Don't get confused with the jargon correction for their obvious uneven problem. 

http://www.cnet.com.au/samsung-responds-to-100hz-motion-plus-issues-339287355.htm

Motion blur happens when the response time on old LCD's are to slow.  This also has nothing to do with 120hz.

Actually if anything was invented, it was when televisions were 60 subfield because of the obvious unscalable issues with film standard being 24frames per second.

http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdtv/what-is-120hz.html

120hz does not "create" frames.  It only repeats the signal.  It cannot "create" what isn't there.

As for the the quote, the part that is deceptive is that he is saying only PCB's and CGA cards put out 15khz...aparently this is not so.

Arcade VGA does this..."not just PCB's and CGA" cards.  That was false from the first post.  And I was correct from my first reponse when I talked about the 15khz to 31khz scaling.

If Cheffo wasn't aware that I was right, he should have just said so.   I am even gave him a link and he still didn't seem to understand.

[genesim]

Oh and also Motion Flow from Sony is also a corrective measure from non Film sources.   

It is a way of compensating for poor signal.   A higher refresh rate does not make "cheesy", if anything it makes it more accurate because it keeps you from losing information that you might not have got becuase of a "judder".

Not pertinent to my point though.   In a 1080p/24 Bluray, it is a 1:1 ratio.  No motion flow, motion blur..etc. is needed.   

[genesim]

Oh and for the record..turn off the motion flow if you don't like it.   Ooooh problem solved.  It has nothing to do with the benefits of a 120hz refresh.

24 frames are still shown five times which is a heck of alot better then what NTSC standards produce, or what 60hz produces.  Again..even divisor.

[genesim]

Sorry about the "Oooh problem solved".   I would rather keep this discussion civilized, and that doesn't help.

It is hard not to sound condescending writing text...as I am sure it can be that way from the other side.

ahofle, I do appreciate you being decent as well as other being more reserved.  We can disagree without it turning into a flame war.   I am really really trying.

[Bluedeath]

I add this only because "real" arcade monitors are in fact nothing more NTSC TVs without tuner.

Movies are in 24 frames (actually 48 since every frame is displayed 2 times to avoid flickering) at the movie teather. when you watch them from a DVD you will see 25 frames (actually the movie is displayed at 104% of the original speed) in Pal systems.
For NTSC systems the trick id done by replicating some frames and discarding some others with a procedure called pulldown normally sequence (if i remember correctly) is 3-2-3 or somethin like that. You see the movie looking on a 120Hz screen because is 4 times the original refresh rate. But unless you have access to 24P material (i don't' know if blue ray disks are always encoded in 24p) you are still seeing the same number of frame that you could see with a 60Hz display.

The 60Hz for NTSC and  50Hz for par were chosen because is the phase timing of the mains power in the countries
where the system were used, this prevented the need of expensive power converters in the TVs.

Is possible to create the missing frames via software but the result os not very good (there are programs to generate slow motion from normal footage)

Edit: Gene i didnt saw that you already expalined this sorry.

[Bluedeath]

maybe this can help. If not i apologize in advance.

we should keep separate the emulation software from the process that is needed to visualize it.

Mame by itself doesn't produce any video signals when it runs create a virtual screen that is not what you really see displayed by your card. This screen is "rendered" and then visualized by the software driver that manage your video card. when you set the options in MAME you set the frame rate and the resolution of the emulation (basically what i called the virtual screen) then you video card translate it into video signals for the display.

This means that Mame cannot tweak the sync signal to drive a 15KHz display so you need a software solution that does that.

Advance MAME instead is born with the ability to directly control the video card to to output a 15KHz signal and what you see when you use it is the closest approximation to the "virtual screen" that MAME creates.


Differences are due to the fact that Normal MAME works trough and HAL (hardware abstraction layer) while Advacne MAME has direct control over the video chips in the card.

Theoretically (and i underscore it  thousand timetheoretically ) all the cards could output 15KHz signals if driven in the correct way is but this is not their "native" frequency since they are supposed to work with 31kHz display, so by default in the firmware of the card this is set to output a 31KHz signal.   

[genesim]

As far as I know 24p is the standard for most Bluray movies.   

[CheffoJeffo]

As for the the quote, the part that is deceptive is that he is saying only PCB's and CGA cards put out 15khz...aparently this is not so.

Arcade VGA does this..."not just PCB's and CGA" cards.  That was false from the first post.  And I was correct from my first reponse when I talked about the 15khz to 31khz scaling.

If Cheffo wasn't aware that I was right, he should have just said so.   I am even gave him a link and he still didn't seem to understand.

About the only things that I have seen put out 15KHz are arcade PCBs and CGA video cards

If this is true, then what is the purpose of Advance MAME?

Making a VGA video card act like CGA video card ?

I guess I should add ArcadeVGA cards and cards running under Soft15KHz as well, but if they are putting out a 15KHz signal, to my mind the cards are behaving as CGA.

saint -- can we get a facepalm smiley ? We're gonna need it if gene is going to stick around!

[CheffoJeffo]

The key word is NATIVE.   There is only one way this(MAXIMIZED resolution) is truly possible while maintaining the correct refresh rate(that is scaled to fit within the difined parameters of a modern day PC which cannot take that low refresh rate with said resolution)...SCALING.

You see, to me, this line screams that you don't understand what you are talking about with respect to CRTs ... "maintaining the correct refresh rate". The refresh rate is the variable component, since the scan rate is fixed (well, for multisyncs, you have a choice) and the number of lines is determined by the game.

[genesim]

Well to your mind you don't understand the difference.

The Arcade VGA is not a CGA card.    It not only can put out a Horizontal frequency of 15khz, but also 25khz...etc.

Plus of course the scaling features.   Not exactly the same, even if "behaving like one" is part of it.  But what it does do is blow your whole arguement to bits that "PCB's and CGA" are all there is.   As pointed out by others, there are more.

As for "this line screams that you don't understand what you are talking about with respect to CRTs"

Mabye Andy can help you out:

Why can't you run your normal PC SVGA monitor at 31Khz with these low game resolutions?

The answer is this: The vertical refresh rate is a simple calculation: Hfreq divided by lines. Therefore as the number of lines is reduced, the vertical refresh rate goes up. So for a vertical resolution of 256, the vertical refresh would be 121Hz, which the monitor (probably) cannot handle. This is why PC monitors cannot display these resolutions natively. The option of reducing the pixel clock is not there because SVGA monitors cannot display under 31Khz Horizontal. A few high-resolution arcade monitors can display the entire range 15Khz - 31Khz and these are ideal but expensive.

Its really not that hard to interpret but lets go for it anway.

My quote and then what corresponds me first..Andy second.

The Key word is Native-

This is why PC monitors cannot display these resolutions natively.

xxxxxxxxx

There is only one way this(MAXIMIZED resolution) is truly possible while maintaining the correct refresh rate

So for a vertical resolution of 256, the vertical refresh would be 121Hz

Note...or you can have multiple pixels represented for every one...hmmm

xxxxxxx

(that is scaled to fit within the difined parameters of a modern day PC which cannot take that low refresh rate with said resolution)...SCALING.

Should have been clear, but I stated it again in case you missed it.

Nothing "screaming that you don't understand" here.

Maintaining the refresh rate absolutely makes sense.   Hence the picture having to be drawn tiwce and thus accomodating a higher refresh rate.

[CheffoJeffo]

Should have been clear, but I stated it again in case you missed it.

Nothing "screaming that you don't understand" here.

Maintaining the refresh rate absolutely makes sense.   Hence the picture having to be drawn tiwce and thus accomodating a higher refresh rate.

I cited the basic formula for refresh rates on CRTs and explained how the scan rate is fixed by the monitor and the resolution is fixed by the game, which means that the refresh rate is NOT fixed. If you dispute any of those facts, please address then specifically:

- is the scan rate fixed by the monitor (remember, we are talking about CRTs, NOT LCDs ... big frakking difference in that regard) ?
- is the resolution fixed by the game ?

If you answered yes to the above, then how can you possibly maintain that the refresh rate is something to be maintained ? Do you dispute the formula ?

I am trying, as I did two years ago when you first started spouting off about video stuff, trying to remain civil, but I don't understand how you can be missing the obvious and be so obnoxious in your ignorance.

 

[genesim]

I cited the basic formula for refresh rates on CRTs and explained how the scan rate is fixed by the monitor and the resolution is fixed by the game, which means that the refresh rate is NOT fixed.

No I do not dispute this.

- is the scan rate fixed by the monitor (remember, we are talking about CRTs, NOT LCDs ... big frakking difference in that regard) ?

It depends on the monitor.   Multisync NO, Fixed YES

- is the resolution fixed by the game ?

Grey area.   If we are talking about the original code then YES, but the resolution can change depending on the program.  But I assume you are speaking about code so the answer is YES.

NOW lets get to your problem.

then how can you possibly maintain that the refresh rate is something to be maintained ? Do you dispute the formula ?

EASY.   The refresh must be maintained to draw the picture on a current monitor with no scaling.    Lets break it down even further.

If you have a bunch of bricks you are laying and it takes you 15 seconds to do it...then if you have 30 seconds you will have laid twice the amount of bricks.    The problem is this, a monitor will have to work twice as hard because in 30 seconds it also has to lay that many more bricks sticking to the original formula to stay true without deviating.

No different then arcade resolution.  To stay true to PACMAN which has less resolution, you will have drawn the image that many more times in the set interval because it is not only less amount of pixels, but it is refreshed that much quicker.

Now MY IGNORANCE?   Do you understand this FACT?

The only way to get a modern computer to understand this is to tell it to redraw the image to fit the current standard.   Andy lines this out perfectly and you ignore it.    Read it and then understand.

What I have always meant by maintaining the refresh rate is having proper scaleup while staying true to the native image. 

You like to twist it around to some kind of simplistic notion that I think refresh rates don't change.  NOT TRUE.   For all CRT monitors there is a little trick I can show you..

Go to control panel-->appearances and themes-->display-->settings-->advanced-->monitor-->SCREEN REFRESH RATE.

 

[genesim]

Look man, I don't care anymore..you know why???!!

I HAVE NOT BEEN LAID OFF!!   I just found out that I survived, and this is a big one.   Take care guys.

We can agree to disagree.   It just doesn't matter.   

Last word Cheffo.   WHOOOOO  HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[CheffoJeffo]

Look man, I don't care anymore..you know why???!!

I HAVE NOT BEEN LAID OFF!!   I just found out that I survived, and this is a big one.   Take care guys.

We can agree to disagree.   It just doesn't matter.   

Last word Cheffo.   WHOOOOO  HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

First, a genuine congratulations on not getting laid off. 

But, you still don't seem to have the first clue about CRT monitors and the way they work and it does matter when you spout off as an expert giving advice.

[genesim]

thx...and the rest..thats ok.   We can just disagree....

WOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!   YEAH!!!

I'm getting drunk!!   Can't wait to see my wife!!!

[DaveMMR]

EDIT: Ah, nevermind. 

[DJ_Izumi]

Whoever took away genesim's edit button should have taken away his 'reply' button too. :/

[Malenko]

Whoever took away genesim's edit button should have taken away his 'reply' button too. :/

he has 743 posts and 645 of those are double or triple or more posts

[Ummon]

And for still being employed, he sure seems to have a lot of ---smurfin--- off time. Boys, you are rubes.