Non-Software Coin Limiter.. Any ideas?

[Mr Kray]

Hi Everyone,

To condense my post:

I would like to limit the number of credits per game.. I'd like to do this electronically rather than via software.

Read on for more details and the full reason why...

When my cabinet was being 'tested' by friends I found that they just pumped in hundreds of credits to get through games like Final Fight and then moved onto the next game, this was extremely annoying for me as I could see the fun wearing off very quickly as once you know the ending it's not as fun to play again. Unlike Contra (if memory serves me correctly) that is not only quite a difficult game but limits the continues you get, I've never gotten bored of this game, but I'm also yet to get very far. 

I know that there is a software solution posted that limits the number of credits per boot but I would like to limit the number of credits per loaded game.

Someone in the another thread mentioned using the dip switches to change the game settings, but can this be done for all games or just those that originally had the dipswitches on them? And if so can it be done without having to go in and modify each game one at a time.

I would also not like to be limited to a particular FE just because it has the ability to limit in game credits but if that is the easiest option I may go for it.

Coin mech and tokens is not really feasible as I can't afford tokens, I don't want to accept cash and I don't want to have to keep handing out more tokens of opening up the cabinet to replenish spent supplies during parties or whatever.

I was thinking that a circuit could be made that once the credit button has been hit a certain number of times (5 or 6 say) the it will be disable until the circuit detects that the 'quit game' keypress has been triggered. That way the credits are limited and the machine does not need to go through a full reboot to allow more credits, if they want to keep playing the same game they just reload it.

Any thoughts, suggestions or comments welcome! Especially if you know a bit more than I about electronics!

Thanks,
Gav (Mr Kray)

[protokatie]

When playing around with one of those 300-in-1 electronic kits there was a circuit for a step counter, that would be the only real "circuit friendly" way to do it cheaply. Another method would be to use a series of low power relays, hitting the coin button would trigger a relay that closed a circuit for the next relay (but also cut itself out of the loop). Once all relays had been tripped, the coin button would have nothing but open circuit and therefor wouldnt do anything. (Its late, lemme see if I can do a draw up in the next few days as to how this would work). You would also have to wire your quit button up so that it clicked the relays back to the starting position.

Honestly, Id say try to find another way, unless you are handy in electronics, it is too much bother.

[SavannahLion]

Build a modified counting circuit?

Off the top of my head. You could use a 4017 along with a couple of transistors (or an IC with a couple of NOTs) and some debounce to build a hardware based counter. A 4017 gives you a total of 10 credits. You could daisy chain the circuit to add more credits as you see fit. The biggest problem with a hardware solution like that though is you're basically restricted to whatever design you choose. What if you decide you want to up the coin counter to accept 15 credits? You would have to rebuild the entire circuit. You could alleviate it somewhat by adding jumpers or DIP switches to give you a selectable range of 0 credits to N. 

I have to say though, a far more powerful and flexible solution would still be software based. A small program hooking into keyboard input. Counts N key presses on a particular key then blocks future key presses past N until a reset key is pressed.

[Mr Kray]

Another method would be to use a series of low power relays, hitting the coin button would trigger a relay that closed a circuit for the next relay (but also cut itself out of the loop). Once all relays had been tripped, the coin button would have nothing but open circuit and therefor wouldnt do anything.

Actually this was the method I thought of, having a few relays set up shutting off after each press and then being reset, but I hadn't put much thought into it to come up with an actual schematic or anything... I know basic electronics so I could make a basic circuit although my soldering skills need a bit of work. 

Build a modified counting circuit?

Off the top of my head. You could use a 4017 along with a couple of transistors (or an IC with a couple of NOTs) and some debounce to build a hardware based counter. A 4017 gives you a total of 10 credits. You could daisy chain the circuit to add more credits as you see fit. The biggest problem with a hardware solution like that though is you're basically restricted to whatever design you choose. What if you decide you want to up the coin counter to accept 15 credits? You would have to rebuild the entire circuit. You could alleviate it somewhat by adding jumpers or DIP switches to give you a selectable range of 0 credits to N. 

That sounds okay, if I could put in the dip switches, the benefit of having it electronic is that regardless of whether your using MAME or just have it hooked up to a coin mech you could always limit the credits (I assume, I don't know much about coin mechs).

I'm not familiar with the 4017 but it gives me somewhere to start researching possibilities.

I have to say though, a far more powerful and flexible solution would still be software based. A small program hooking into keyboard input. Counts N key presses on a particular key then blocks future key presses past N until a reset key is pressed.

I'm better at electronics that I am with programming, used to know some back in the day but wouldn't have a clue where to start now, that's why I favoured the electronics route, I thought someone might already know a circuit that could be modified or I figured there would be a simple way to rig something up.

If anyone knows how to program something to do this that'd be great but I'm not the one to do it. 

Maybe Endtwist's coin limiter could be modified to reset the counter on a key press rather than a reboot?

Anyway, thanks for the help, if anyone else out there has a solution please speak up, otherwise I'll start a researchin'. 

[Neverending Project]

Here's a crazy solution that just may actually work. I'm still trying to figure it out in my head as I write this so bear with me, but what about using a relay and a macro? Here's how I would picture it: The Insert Coin button would be programmed on your cab in insert the maximum number of coins you want, call it 5. It would also be wired to turn a relay Off. So as soon as the Insert Coin button is pressed 5 coins are sent to the game, and then it disables itself by turning the relay off. Turning the relay back on would be via a hidden reset button. If you have an LED controller you could use an unused LED control line to turn the relay on/off when new games are launched - just treat it as an LED.

Like I said, I am not sure I have thought it all the way through, but maybe the idea is inspiring?

Should I just go have some more coffee?

[Edit]
So I was thinking about this some more (after my second cup of coffee).... you could implement a counter using either a 4017 IC as mentioned above, or build a 3 or 4-bit binary counter using relays (also mentioned above), but both solutions will need a reset switch since they are locked out once the maximum count is reached. Since you want a solution that is non-software and the software is what switches the game, you would have to wire the reset into the game quit button (and this would have to be a dedicated button) so whenever the game is quit the counter would get reset.

But if it's wired to the game quit button, what happens if you want to play more than the predetermined counter allows? Thusly, it is hereforeto my conclusion that you will either need to wire a hidden reset button (or button combination), or use a hardware/software combo for your solution.

[SavannahLion]

Here's a crazy solution that just may actually work. I'm still trying to figure it out in my head as I write this so bear with me, but what about using a relay and a macro? Here's how I would picture it: The Insert Coin button would be programmed on your cab in insert the maximum number of coins you want, call it 5. It would also be wired to turn a relay Off. So as soon as the Insert Coin button is pressed 5 coins are sent to the game, and then it disables itself by turning the relay off. Turning the relay back on would be via a hidden reset button. If you have an LED controller you could use an unused LED control line to turn the relay on/off when new games are launched - just treat it as an LED.

Like I said, I am not sure I have thought it all the way through, but maybe the idea is inspiring?

Should I just go have some more coffee?

I had considered using a LED controller but I wasn't sure how much the OP was willing to spend.

In any case. A relay is kind of heavy duty for a simple switch. An alternate use would be a general purpose PNP transistor (or an NPN depending on how you want to program it). With some creative wiring, you could use the LED controller AND get LED usage out of it. The LED would go into the coin button. Using an NPN when the coin is active, the light comes on and credits can be entered. When the limit is reached, the LED switches off, no more credits.

Your solution would still require some scripting to handle the counting and reset states of the buttons and LED, but it seems to be a little bit more accessable to your average joe than full on hooking of the keyboard. I'm not entirely sure if a controller will have problems with the NPN though. Every time I simulate a circuit to use a transistor as a drain, I can never quite get it down to zero volts. Then when I build a breadboard, I keep forgetting to check the voltage levels there. Oh well.

[protokatie]

But if it's wired to the game quit button, what happens if you want to play more than the predetermined counter allows?

he could have a hidden switch that would bypass all the IC or relay logic.

Also, if he wanted to get mad-crazy and use a microcontroller to help control the number of times the coin button can be pressed, there could be a timer that lets more coins be entered after a period of time. But that is just getting to the point where it would be better to use software on the computer....

He also said that he wanted to do this because he didnt want to charge his friends and couldnt afford tokens... Maybe just use a comparator coin mech set up for pennies, and keep a bunch of penny rolls around for his friends to use. Much cheaper than tokens and much less likely to get stolen than tokens or quarters. Also, it helps add to the "authentic" feel if you have to put a coin into the machine, as opposed to just hitting a button...

[Mr Kray]

I'll have a look into the LED controller and 4017 and other options when I have a bit more time (I'm at work at the moment  ) and then reply about that a bit later but for now...

He also said that he wanted to do this because he didn't want to charge his friends and couldn't afford tokens... Maybe just use a comparator coin mech set up for pennies, and keep a bunch of penny rolls around for his friends to use. Much cheaper than tokens and much less likely to get stolen than tokens or quarters. Also, it helps add to the "authentic" feel if you have to put a coin into the machine, as opposed to just hitting a button...

I can actually afford the tokens but shipping to Australia would be a killer, the main reason for not wanting the tokens is that if I were to have a number of friends around I would have to have enough tokens/pennies (smallest is 5c over here) for all of them and then I would either have to give more out when they run out or risk having one person use all the pennies I've left out for everyone in one go and stocking up on credits.

I want to just be able to leave the system on it's own and not have to worry about it... I figure if I have an electronic limiter then I can go the token route in the future and still limit the credits.. that way I get authenticity and longevity of game play! 

So I don't mind spending that little bit extra to get this working and being able to change the number of credits that are allowed would be nice... but if the software option would be easier that using the methods described so far then it may be cheaper for me to offer a $20-$30 payment to a friend to get them to program it for me.

Can anyone give me a rough idea on how much each of these options may end up costing me - relays, 4017, LED Controller, or Microcontroller (I actually thought of this as well but realised I may as well learn to program a small piece of software if I'm going that far)

[Thenasty]

would this work ?

With MAME save states, load up the game, insert the amount of credits you want, then exit out. Then set the games NVRAM, CFG to +R (read only) so its always the same time (no savingg when game is exited).
After ALL this WORK is done with all the GAMES, edit the MAME INI/CFG and disable the COIn in 5 6 7 8 etc.... So no credits is accepted even if they shove coins in.
When the credits are all used up, they have to exit out the game, and can go back in with the SET CREDITS again, but they start the game from the beggining.

[Neverending Project]

I was just thinking about a similar idea to Thenasty's. First of all, do you have an I-PAC? You could write a couple of simple batch files to reprogram the I-PAC - one programs it to a macro (more on this below), and one disables it completely. Batch File A programs the I-PAC with a macro that would send five keypresses of your insert coin (5), and then call Batch File B. Batch File B reprograms the I-PAC to set the Insert Coin button to do nothing. Set your front-end to send the Batch File A at game launch (and possibly at game exit also, although this isn't really necessary).

It would work like this: you select a game from your front end and the I-PAC is programmed with Batch File A. Pressing the Insert Coin button will insert something like 5 coins, and then call Batch File B. This will reprogram the I-PAC so the Insert Coin button no longer does anything until a new game is selected from the front end, hence you would have to ext and re-select the game for more credits.

You could set the shifted function of the Insert Coin button to send the normal insert coin keypress, so you always have a "secret" way of adding coins. You could also get fancy and instead of the batch file reprogramming the IPAC right away, it could use a text file as a simple counter. Each time it runs, it reads the text file and either increments the text file counter or disables the IPAC depending on the count.

I realize this is a pretty crude solution, but it wouldn't cost anything and using batch files as a scripting language is simple enough...

About the cost of the HW solutions, the project board, 555 timer and 4017 IC (and some other miscellaneous transistors, resistors, etc.) should cost more than a few bucks, maybe 10 (assuming you have a soldering iron and such)... the bigger pain would be designing the circuit and building it. And it would still need an extra reset button and would not be easy to change the number of credits allowed.

*Edit
I just realized that the IPAC may not have the capability of calling a batch file in a macro, nor would it sent the Insert Coins sequentially. I believe it sends all four keys of the macro simultaneously. So you would need some third party utility to execute the above macro on a keypress instead. Still possible, just would need a little something something to help it along.

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, as I was reading NP's suggestion I was thinking "this could probably be done with the autohotkey program". Instead of 2 batch files maybe you could have 2 hotkey files, and on game start it would load one of them, and then on coin insert it would do the credits and then load the other hotkey file, which would not allow coin inserts to do anything. I'm no expert on that so I can't provide much specific advice, but it's a starting point at least.

EDIT: Scratch that idea - until a program like autohotkey supports the RawInput system that mame uses, it wouldn't work.

[Mr Kray]

would this work ?

With MAME save states, load up the game, insert the amount of credits you want, then exit out. Then set the games NVRAM, CFG to +R (read only) so its always the same time (no savingg when game is exited).
After ALL this WORK is done with all the GAMES, edit the MAME INI/CFG and disable the COIn in 5 6 7 8 etc.... So no credits is accepted even if they shove coins in.
When the credits are all used up, they have to exit out the game, and can go back in with the SET CREDITS again, but they start the game from the beggining.

I would prefer not to have to go through the games individually. Also would there be anything else that is lost if the game state cannot be saved? Highscores are handled seperately aren't they?
If disabling the ability to save game states doesn't disable any other functionality this is a possible solution (besides setting up games one at a time).

I was just thinking about a similar idea to Thenasty's. First of all, do you have an I-PAC? You could write a couple of simple batch files to reprogram the I-PAC - one programs it to a macro (more on this below), and one disables it completely. Batch File A programs the I-PAC with a macro that would send five keypresses of your insert coin (5), and then call Batch File B. Batch File B reprograms the I-PAC to set the Insert Coin button to do nothing. Set your front-end to send the Batch File A at game launch (and possibly at game exit also, although this isn't really necessary).

..........

I realize this is a pretty crude solution, but it wouldn't cost anything and using batch files as a scripting language is simple enough...

As I have an I-Pac² this post got me quite excited that a cheap (free) solution had finally been found...

*Edit
I just realized that the IPAC may not have the capability of calling a batch file in a macro, nor would it sent the Insert Coins sequentially. I believe it sends all four keys of the macro simultaneously. So you would need some third party utility to execute the above macro on a keypress instead. Still possible, just would need a little something something to help it along.

Until I read this. 

Can anyone confirm that the I-Pac acts in this way.. or do they know of the software that could help it along?

So far I think the best option (assuming the I-Pac one is not possible) is using a 4017, I've done a bit of research and it doesn't seem too difficult to use, they cost about $1 here in Aus (as does a 555) so I'd be able to daisy chain a couple of them and then use a switch or some such to change the amount of credit (maybe in lots of 5), the whole thing would cost me less than $10 and since I was expecting around $20 it's like I'm making a profit! 

Just wondering why I would need the 555 timer?

And what is a LED controller? I've done a search on Google and come up with some circuits that control LEDs but the ones I've seen use a 4017 so I don't see the difference, can someone explain?

[protokatie]

LED controllers (such as the LEDwiz) allow you to use premade software to control 5Vdc outputs in a controlled manner. This output can be usefull for other means as well (IE not LED based).

Since you do not know much about electronic wiring I SERIOUSLY advise you to buy a 300 or 500 in one electronics kit (from radioshack or similar). They are REALLY fun to work with and will teach you everything from basic wiring, to step counters, to AM transmitters, and much more. The 50 or so you will drop on one of those kits is worth a year in college level electrical engineering. (Once you start to get "it" with the 300-in-1 kit, you will be like a kid in a sandbox!!!)

Just buy one, even if it wont help you with your cab, they are fun to play with!

[Neverending Project]

The input of the 4017 expects a clock signal. When you hook a pushbutton to this input to simulate a clock input, there is a chance the input will "bounce" when you press the button, sending more than one clock count to the counter. So the 555 is used to "debounce" the input. In a nutshell it is wired between the pushbutton and the 4017 input. When the pushbutton is pressed, it sends out one clock pulse and then stays low, so there is no "bouncing".

The cost isn't really an issue, but more the soldering skills required and the design as well. It's a fairly simple circuit, but you will still need to figure resistors, capacitors, transistors, and the 555 and 4017.

Back to the software idea... we'll need some mame gurus to help out. Here's what I tried... I created a simple batch file that did nothing of significance - I just wanted something to test. Then I created a shortcut to this batch file (important step). On the shortcut (in XP) I right-clicked and went to Properties, and then clicked the Shortcut tab. I clicked in the Shortcut key field and pressed the letter "G" (unused as far as I know). This will set the key combination to run this shortcut to Ctrl-Alt-G. Then in the MAME input menu I set the coin 1 input to Ctrl-Alt-G as well. I want to see if MAME will insert a coin AND run the batch file. It doesn't. It will run the batch file, but no coin is inserted.

If we could get past this, then you could use this trick to have the batch file make a simple text-file counter (as talked about above). Once the limit is reached, the batch file would instead reconfig the IPAC (and reset the counter). But Windows seems to be taking over when you assign the same key shortcut to open the batch file as you use in MAME.

Does anyone know a way around this? So close, and yet...

[tommyinajar]

Sorry if this thread is dead or not, but I stumbled on this post because I was looking for the same thing.

Atomic FE Had a credit limiter but it was removed pre request of the Mame team, but the program you wanted I think was called Coin Drop

[protokatie]

Sorry if this thread is dead or not, but I stumbled on this post because I was looking for the same thing.

Atomic FE Had a credit limiter but it was removed pre request of the Mame team, but the program you wanted I think was called Coin Drop

HedKaze no longer supports or distributes that program. Would be nice if he did, but I guess it was a big issue with too many people, so he just decided to drop it. Can't really blame him for it, maybe someone else will try their hand at something similar.

[Mr Kray]

Sorry if this thread is dead or not, but I stumbled on this post because I was looking for the same thing.

Atomic FE Had a credit limiter but it was removed pre request of the Mame team, but the program you wanted I think was called Coin Drop

Actually I managed to get a copy of Headkaze's software a while back, and while it does the job it doesn't totally suit my needs...

Really the reason I wanted to have a non-software version is so that I could put in a secret button that bypassed the limiting circuit to give extra credits... Using Headkaze's software the only way to bypass it is to assign another key to 'coin insert' in mame to bypass the limiting software.

Unfortunately I have an ipac2 and I've pretty much maxed out my number of key inputs so I don't have a spare key to assign. 

[Blanka]

I don't get it.
Your friends like to toss in 100 virtual coins to see the end? Throwing in enough to finish Golden Axe or 1944 is also really awesome, and as the games are 2 player, its big fun anyway. Well let them have their fun or tell them you don't like it! Talking is the cheapest solution to almost everything!
If that doesn't help, go for the real quarters. They will come to you for change now and then so its easier to refuse. No one has 100 quarters in his pocket
Going the Willy Carrot way to solve it is not worth it.

[Blanka]

Guess he's not Willy Carrot in English 
Googling Willy Carrot gives this:

[Neverending Project]

I think this can be done using a microcontroller, something like the Arduino.

First, the design concept:
Take your 1P pushbutton, and connect it to one of your microcontroller inputs. Hook one of the microcontroller outputs to your iPAC 1P port. The microcontroller program flow would be something like this:
1P is pushed (debounce) -> Is the max number of credits reached?
If no, send 1P output low.
If yes, do nothing.
You could use a separate hidden button wired in to the microcontroller to reset the coin counter, or you could wire some of your existing pushbuttons in series as a reset. You could also program it so holding the 1P for 10 seconds (or longer) will reset it. Actually, now that I think about it, you could make the secret reset like a secret knock, three short, three long and three short presses, or something similar.

Repeat the above for the 2P button, on a separate input/output on the microcontroller.

Next, the cost:
The Arduino will cost you about $20 (excluding shipping). The problem is that you will need a USB board or cable to program it (one-time cost) of another $20. All the software is free.

Finally, the limitations:
The coin count will have to be hard-programmed into the microcontroller. The only way to have it (easily) changeable would be to add a rotary or dip-switch to the microcontroller, and program the values ahead of time. Also, your secret hidden reset button might be easily discovered, the first time anyone sees you press it.

Want to have the coin counter reset automatically every time you switch games? If you have an existing port available on an LED controller, you could have your FE set that port on, and wire it directly to the microcontroller as a reset. If you don't have an LED controller, you will need some modifications on the design, but it can be done.

Does this all sound overly complicated for a seemingly simple task? Absolutely. But that's part of the fun, no? Let me know if you're interested, and I can help with the design in a bit more detail.

[Benevolance]

Blanka is correct: using real coins would be the easiest solution.

[SavannahLion]

Guess he's not Willy Carrot in English 

His name is Gyro Gearloose. He was, somewhat, a regular on Ducktales.

[Mr Kray]

I think this can be done using a microcontroller, something like the Arduino.
.
.
.

Does this all sound overly complicated for a seemingly simple task? Absolutely. But that's part of the fun, no? Let me know if you're interested, and I can help with the design in a bit more detail.

That is very much something I like the look of, unfortunately (or fortunately) I'm going overseas for.. well, indefinitely in about 5 days and I'm handing my cab over to some friends to look after so I don't have the time to work on such a device and they don't have the care to undertake such a project.

Thanks for the suggestion and the offer of help, once I return at some point I'll no doubt drag this thread back out of the ether and try again but until then I'll just setup Headkaze's software and let my friends work hard to get through their games 

[Malenko]

This might be a little off base but....
why do you care if they ruin their fun by pumping in a ton of credits?  Even on the easiest Setting I cant be Final Fight on 5 credits. My Nephews pump in MAD credits on Metal Slug and love it.


Hows about you just say "only put in 10 credits or you cant play" sounds like a lot less work then wiring up relays and circuits

[Mr Kray]

That's a fair call but really 5 credits isn't what I'd limit it to, more like 20.. but the idea is not just to limit the credits to make it harder to finish the games but also to make it more like the true experience of being at the arcades and having a limited amount of cash to spend.. that's why I want to do it.. others want to do it so they can limit the amount of credits the reward their kids with etc.

Plus the challenge of making such a system workable.

[Malenko]

That's a fair call but really 5 credits isn't what I'd limit it to, more like 20.. but the idea is not just to limit the credits to make it harder to finish the games but also to make it more like the true experience of being at the arcades and having a limited amount of cash to spend.. that's why I want to do it.. others want to do it so they can limit the amount of credits the reward their kids with etc.

Plus the challenge of making such a system workable.

heres what I did:

I hooked up coin mechs and I give them a specific number of tokens to use.

I can see what youre trying to accomplish and why, but in the end I dont think the payoff is worth that amount of work when there are simpler and easier methods of controlling credits already out there. I personally feel that your best 2 options are coin mechs & limited coins or a credit button that can have physical access to restricted.

EDIT:
Also, I'd like to say that games like Final Fight were DESIGNED to consume as many quarters as possible so you've got to decide whats more important being able to beat the game or seeing how far you can get on X amount of credits

[AndyWarne]

I think this is a great idea, but by far the neatest way would be a new setting in mame. If enough people request it, maybe the devs will add this feature.

I can see exactly where you are coming from. The "do you want to continue" games lose some of their challenge if everyone has unlimited credits available.

[u_rebelscum]

I think this is a great idea, but by far the neatest way would be a new setting in mame. If enough people request it, maybe the devs will add this feature.

Never going to happen in official mame.  I'm not against limits, but just saying this feature is against MameDev's idea.  Please don't bug them about adding features that enhance play at the cost of changing the original game design.  Other derivs might add it, but not official mame. 

Also, I'd like to say that games like Final Fight were DESIGNED to consume as many quarters as possible so you've got to decide whats more important being able to beat the game or seeing how far you can get on X amount of credits

Truth.  Adding limits the original game didn't have is a case of changing the original game.