Which is better - I-pac or KeyWiz keyboard encoder?

[onespriggan]

Hello,

I am new to the keyboard encoder scene and was wondering which product was better, the I-pac or the Keywiz.  They both seem to have similar features.  I am looking for the most user friendly one and easy to navigate interface.  I will only have (2) 8-way joysticks with 7 buttons each.  It will be running under Windows XP. 

thanks 

[Fozzy The Bear]

I am new to the keyboard encoder scene and was wondering which product was better, the I-pac or the Keywiz.  They both seem to have similar features.  I am looking for the most user friendly one and easy to navigate interface.  I will only have (2) 8-way joysticks with 7 buttons each.  It will be running under Windows XP. 

Both of them are good quality products from very reliable vendors. Both of them will do what you want to do. Both of them are eaqually easy to use and set up. Both of them have flawless support.

So at the end of the day, "you pays your money you takes your choice."

Personally I use Keywiz encoders, because I like them. But that doesn't mean that they're better than the Ipac, but they are a little bit cheaper and for me the Shazaaam shift function works well.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

Fozzy pretty well nailed it.

I use the KeyWiz.

KeyWiz has more inputs.  I-Pac supports USB.  I-Pac remembers programming settings and is likely faster to re-program, but I rarely re-program mine.

More Info here:

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

This is probably a coke vs. pepsi question.   

I have an Ipac.  I dig it.  Andy at Ultimarc was SUPER helpful.  The wiring was a breeze, and I have never in my life wired something before my Ipac.  If I can do it, ANYONE can, haha.

I then got an optipac for my trackball, and it was just as easy.

[SavannahLion]

Here's another way to look at it.

What else are you going to order? Both of them offer a few exclusives designs as well as variations on similar products. For instance, if you're going to order the cold cathode lighting then you might as well bundle your purchase with an iPac and Opti-Pac if need be.

Of course, you can order from both 

[Xam]

This is one of the few times that you cannot make a wrong decision. I personally use Keywiz, but as Fozzy mentioned, this is not saying that it is better than I-PAC.

Both vendors have excellent reputations here as well as both products.

Xam

[Fozzy The Bear]

I-Pac remembers programming settings and is likely faster to re-program, but I rarely re-program mine.

That said, Keywiz includes the uploader software that will re-program it on the fly when you start a particular emulator, or re-program it at boot up for your custom configuration. So it doesn't need to store the information in hardware. It's horses for courses really.  Nuf Said!! They both work fine.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[unclet]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?  If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

[Fozzy The Bear]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?  If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

Yes and Yes.... Keywiz Max includes a pass-thru connector and switch. It's not a pass-thru as such as it's independant of the keywiz, which does have advantages:

From Randy's site: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_80&products_id=199

"The KeyWiz Max 1.5 comes with the same great High-Performance core features of the KeyWiz product line. Added to this are the industrial-quality terminal blocks and an easy-to operate switched PS/2 keyboard port that is completely isolated from the KeyWiz processor. This means you can still use that old keyboard, when you absolutely must, without burdening the cpu with cycle-theiving pass-through code or loss of inputs for your controls."

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?

Yes

If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

The Max does but you have to flip a switch on the KeyWiz for the pass-thru to be active.  The better solution is to use a wireless or USB keyboard to configure MAME.

[Tiger-Heli]

That said, Keywiz includes the uploader software that will re-program it on the fly when you start a particular emulator, or re-program it at boot up for your custom configuration. So it doesn't need to store the information in hardware. It's horses for courses really.  Nuf Said!! They both work fine.

I should have clarified - I use a removable desktop CP with the KeyWiz and hotswap it in and out.  The software does not work if I don't have the KeyWiz plugged in when I launch it, and it takes about 10 seconds under WinXP (faster under Win98).  I like the KeyWiz default codeset better than the I-Pac default and use it and go out of my way to avoid re-programming it, but for a true arcade cab most of these "problems" would disappear.

[DeLuSioNal29]

It also depends on how many players you want on your panel.  I would have bought a Keywiz, since I ordered a TON of stuff from GroovyGameGear.com and it would have been easier and I could have saved on shipping, but the Keywiz encoders did not have as many inputs in one single encoder.  I'm sure you could daisy chain more than one, but I was new at this stuff and didn't want to have to deal with that.  The ipac4 was the answer for me.  Again, it depends how many inputs you need.

For calculating the number of inputs:  (this was confusing for me when I was a newbie so I figured I'd include it)
-  Keep in mind that the 8 way joys only take up 4 inputs per joystick.  The diagonals are actually pressing two at the same time.
-  You can "double-up" inputs.  This is good for things like 4 ways sharing the same inputs at 8 ways for player 1.

Example for calculating inputs on a typical 2 player panel with 6 buttons per player:
2 - joysticks (1 for each player) = 8 inputs
1 - 4 way joystick = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one 8 way inputs which does not need any additional inputs)
6 - buttons for each player = 12 inputs
2 - credit buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
2 - start buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
4 - pinball buttons (2 on the left side of panel (on the side) and 2 on the right) = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one buttons 1 & 2)
24 inputs total in this example
Or you can have less if you use the shift/Shazam button.

The KeyWiz-ST can handle up to 32 inputs so is ideal for a 2 player setup.
The Ipac4 can handle up to 56 inputs so is ideal for a 4 player setup.

Note:  Spinners and/or trackball use separate encoders from the joysticks and buttons.  The Groovy Game Gear Spinner (Turbo Twist 2) comes with it's own USB interface built in as does the Electric Ice-T Trackball (USB) so no encoders are needed for those.  Other brands will need additional encoders that do not come with the trackball/spinner.  (i.e. - Ultimarc's optipac encoder for spinners/trackballs).

Hope this helped!

~ DeLuSioNaL

[DeLuSioNal29]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?

Yes

If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

The Max does but you have to flip a switch on the KeyWiz for the pass-thru to be active.  The better solution is to use a wireless or USB keyboard to configure MAME.

On the flip side, The Ultimarc ipacs have a pass through for keyboards directly on the encoder as well that is always active.

So to clarify further:  The ipac has two PS2 ports on it.  One plugs in to the computer with the included PS2 wire and the other port (pass thru) on the encoder is where you would plug in your PS2 keyboard.

[Avrus]

Mini-Pac because it comes with wiring harness.   

[MazzMn]

Fozzy pretty well nailed it.

I use the KeyWiz.

KeyWiz has more inputs.  I-Pac supports USB.  I-Pac remembers programming settings and is likely faster to re-program, but I rarely re-program mine.

I wanted to have USB support and save a little money, so I tried the GPWiz Eco 32
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_81&products_id=234

This confused me at first as it created Joystick output and not Keyboard output. Randy from GGG pointed me to JoytoKey which converts joystick output to keyboard output (free windows pgm). Once I got this things were much easier. Only slight problem is it can't differentiate between ctl left and ctl right, shift left and shift right...no big deal

http://www.groovygamegear.com/jtk379en.zip

[CheffoJeffo]

For calculating the number of inputs:  (this was confusing for me when I was a newbie so I figured I'd include it)
-  Keep in mind that the 8 way joys only take up 4 inputs per joystick.  The diagonals are actually pressing two at the same time.
-  You can "double-up" inputs.  This is good for things like 4 ways sharing the same inputs at 8 ways for player 1.

Example for calculating inputs on a typical 2 player panel with 6 buttons per player:
2 - joysticks (1 for each player) = 8 inputs
1 - 4 way joystick = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one 8 way inputs which does not need any additional inputs)
6 - buttons for each player = 12 inputs
2 - credit buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
2 - start buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
4 - pinball buttons (2 on the left side of panel (on the side) and 2 on the right) = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one buttons 1 & 2)
24 inputs total in this example
Or you can have less if you use the shift/Shazam button.

The KeyWiz-ST can handle up to 32 inputs so is ideal for a 2 player setup.
The Ipac4 can handle up to 56 inputs so is ideal for a 4 player setup.

Note:  Spinners and/or trackball use separate encoders from the joysticks and buttons.  The Groovy Game Gear Spinner (Turbo Twist 2) comes with it's own USB interface built in as does the Electric Ice-T Trackball (USB) so no encoders are needed for those.  Other brands will need additional encoders that do not come with the trackball/spinner.  (i.e. - Ultimarc's optipac encoder for spinners/trackballs).

 

A very useful example ... thanks for taking the time.

 

[onespriggan]

thanks for the quick responses everyone!  This clears up a lot of questions I had.  I think I will try out the KeyWiz. 

[Havok]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?  If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

I use a Keywiz, and have a usb keyboard hooked up at the same time - works great, and I don't have to flip a switch...

** Edit **

The Keywiz is ps/2 only...

[Singapura]

I put exactly the same question on the Mameworld board this morning! Thanks for the information 

[protokatie]

Mini-Pac because it comes with wiring harness.   Grin

If you order the right one it does . Or you can order the minipac without the harness if you want to make your own I guess.. There are two versions of the minipac, and you can get the one with the optical capabilities as well (I went with the cheaper one since I dont plan on having spinners or the like)

I am a NewB at this, so the obvious choice for me was the minipac, and would definetly recommend it to other NewBs as well. If I get into the addiction of making arcade cabs, I will prolly go for Ipac4's for 4player cabs, and may look into keywiz.

If you are good at dealing with wiring, and dont need a hole tonne of inputs, my suggestion would be to flip a coin to choose between Ipac and keywiz...

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a lot of the gaming vendors are less competitive, and more cooperative than the vendors in other areas of interest.  Perhaps that spawns from it being a very "by the people, for the people" pastime..

[protokatie]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a lot of the gaming vendors are less competitive, and more cooperative than the vendors in other areas of interest.  Perhaps that spawns from it being a very "by the people, for the people" pastime..

Ive gotten the same basic vibe. Also, I have noted that the better the vendors are about things (IE in honesty) the better everything is for everyone. Hell, even Andy said that a competing product was basically the same as his minipac, and even recommended it to another person (As a suggestion as a replacement of a product the other company sold that had ghost keys)! All this, and Andy (instead of profiting) gave an honest and helpful reply for free!

I do really like that not only are most of the people involved in this, but also most of the vendors as well, are more like a community.

KUDDOS to all of the great people who have kept the arcade alive! (Too many names to list tho )

[Tiger-Heli]

Hell, even Andy said that a competing product was basically the same as his minipac, and even recommended it to another person (As a suggestion as a replacement of a product the other company sold that had ghost keys)! All this, and Andy (instead of profiting) gave an honest and helpful reply for free!

Just want to clarify - Andy recommended a product from a competing company that was based on a board that he sells to the competing company.  So if the OP buys that product from Gremlin, Gremlin in turn needs to buy another mini-pac from Andy to replace it.

I agree it was a good move, and I am not faulting Andy at all for it, but your "instead of profiting" goes a bit far in this case.

[missioncontrol]

here's a retroblast review

http://www.retroblast.com/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-KeyWiz-Keyboard-Encoder.php

[patrickl]

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

BTW you can use the IPAC ps/2 cable with a passive ps/2 usb adapter to hook it up to a USB port. So even if you buy it with ps/2 now you can always switch later. Most people will have one of these adapters laying around (I think I collected at least a few dozen over the years).

[missioncontrol]

another review


http://www.retroblast.com/Hardware/The-Ultimarc-Mini-Pac-Encoder.php

I-Pac review, but it's horribly out of date now (PS-2 only, etc...)

http://www.retroblast.com/Hardware/RetroBlast-IPAC-Review.php

[Tiger-Heli]

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

Not sure how many new PC's are lacking PS/2 ports, but if you don't have one the KeyWiz isn't for you.  This then becomes a GP-Wiz vs. I-PAC issue, but not for this thread.

BTW you can use the IPAC ps/2 cable with a ps/2 usb adapter to hook it up to a USB port. So even if you buy it with ps/2 now you can always switch later. Most people will have one of these adapters laying around (I think I collected at least a few dozen over the years).

I am not sure that works with the I-PAC or not - there is a USB cable that you could probably buy separately from Andy that will work.  I tried the adapter route with the KeyWiz with less than stellar results, but I can't say that the I-Pac would be the same.

[patrickl]

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

Not sure how many new PC's are lacking PS/2 ports, but if you don't have one the KeyWiz isn't for you.  This then becomes a GP-Wiz vs. I-PAC issue, but not for this thread.

Of the last 5 computer I bought over the last few years none had a PS/2 connector.

BTW you can use the IPAC ps/2 cable with a ps/2 usb adapter to hook it up to a USB port. So even if you buy it with ps/2 now you can always switch later. Most people will have one of these adapters laying around (I think I collected at least a few dozen over the years).

I am not sure that works with the I-PAC or not - there is a USB cable that you could probably buy separately from Andy that will work.  I tried the adapter route with the KeyWiz with less than stellar results, but I can't say that the I-Pac would be the same.

I'm talking about something like this. Works fine. I use it too.

BTW I'm not making this up. Andy confirmed that it works (in threads here on BYOAC even). The IPAC basically is a ps/2 + USB capable device. Just what those little adapters were made for.

[RandyT]

Of the last 5 computer I bought over the last few years none had a PS/2 connector.

That's because you keep buying computers that don't have them.    We did this dance a few years back when people were incorrectly predicting that the demise of PS/2 was "right around the corner" (and I think you were one of them, using the same shaky argument).  As I stated then, it isn't going to happen any time soon.  I don't know how it is in the EU, but those "legacy free" systems traditionally don't sell well here.  I see them on the surplus sites as new stock (not re-furbs like the higher spec machines with legacy support.)  And they sell only marginally well at reduced price.

Consumers still demand that their systems support legacy hardware, and as long as they do, you will continue to see it on the majority of systems.  Nobody intentionally opts for less compatibility out of their $500+ investment, and I personally would never buy one lacking in ports unless it was A: Very inexpensive and B: Slated for a very specific purpose like a set-top multimedia box.

That being said, it's hard to say how long new consumers will continue to demand it, as the lower end systems from mainstream marketers are starting to go USB.  But that still doesn't change the availability of all those legacy systems that are perfect for dedicated Arcade systems

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

BTW I'm not making this up. Andy confirmed that it works (in threads here on BYOAC even). The IPAC basically is a ps/2 + USB capable device. Just what those little adapters were made for.

I didn't accuse you of that - I merely stated that those adapters don't work (well the kind I tried) with the KeyWiz, and RandyT has said as much before.

[TheShanMan]

I was surprised to still see a serial port and parallel port on my latest mb I bought a few weeks ago. Amazing how long this legacy stuff stays around.

[protokatie]

Just want to clarify - Andy recommended a product from a competing company that was based on a board that he sells to the competing company.  So if the OP buys that product from Gremlin, Gremlin in turn needs to buy another mini-pac from Andy to replace it.

Ahh, ok. The way I had read it was that the thing gremlin was selling was only based off of the minipac (IE the chip and the way to wire it). I didnt realise that Gremlin was reselling minipacs... NM, sorries.

BTW, a few months ago I ran across the company that makes the chips in the IPAC, quite an interesting list of capabilities the thing has. With the right firmware, you could almost turn the thing into a full fledged CPU-like device.

[Tiger-Heli]

Ahh, ok. The way I had read it was that the thing gremlin was selling was only based off of the minipac (IE the chip and the way to wire it). I didnt realise that Gremlin was reselling minipacs... NM, sorries.

I can't state specifics, but I believe the chip is pretty common - any company selling the a competing device with the chip would be legal to do so.  I imagine the mini-pac firmware is proprietary, so any company selling a device with the chip and Andy's firmware on it (if they didn't buy the board and chip from Andy) would likely be in legal trouble in short order.  While Gremlin could in theory use the same chip and their own firmware to accomplish the same thing, I doubt Andy would refer to the product as "based on our Mini-Pac" and could be in legal trouble if he did so.

But it's not quite right to say Gremlin is reselling minipacs - I believe what they are selling is likely an entire coin return mechanism that incorporates the mini-pac in it's design.  So it's not the same product that you buy from Ultimarc, but for each one sold, Ultimarc gets a new order to replenish Gremlin's stock.

Sorry for the long clarification (and any possible inaccuracies).

[AndyWarne]

Just to clarify the PS/2 to USB converter/adaptor issue:

There are two types of device available:

Active converter modules.
These take the PS/2 protocol and convert to USB using active circuitry. These will not work with any PS/2 gaming device because they will suffer from a key-press limit and will also clear out the keystrokes every couple of seconds to avoid stuck keys. This is fine for a keyboard but would make gameplay impossible since any held-down key would be cleared after a couple of seconds.

Passive adaptors.
These can be used just fine with the I-PAC and the results are the same as using our own USB cable. The I-PAC auto-detects the interface its connected to and invokes different internal firmare for USB or PS/2. It is two devices in one. So running with one of these adaptors renders it a native USB device, not a PS/2 device converted into USB. The small green adaptor plugs fit into this category.

Just another comment relevant to a point mentioned earlier in this thread: the PS/2 pass-through on the I-PAC does not use any clock cycles at all if the keyboard is not being used.

Andy

[Fozzy The Bear]

Just another comment relevant to a point mentioned earlier in this thread: the PS/2 pass-through on the I-PAC does not use any clock cycles at all if the keyboard is not being used.

Now that's interesting Andy. Can you explain how it achieves that?? I may be wrong here, but I'd have thought it would have to be scanning the PS2 Pass-through in order to know if a key on the keyboard has been pressed?? can you explain why that's not the case please.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

I may be wrong here, but I'd have thought it would have to be scanning the PS2 Pass-through in order to know if a key on the keyboard has been pressed?? can you explain why that's not the case please.

Im sure Andy's reply above was better than this one, but in the docs for the chip it mentioned as one of the features that it had circuitry built on the chip that did the detection of USB/PC as well as formatting the output to the detected type. This is from my memory from a month ago, but it did seem to mention actual dedicated circuitry for that. I could post some links to the docs online, but I dont know if Andy would appreciate it if I did. Even tho he doesnt actively censor what chips he uses are, I think I will leave it up to people to do their own detective work...

[AndyWarne]

Now that's interesting Andy. Can you explain how it achieves that?? I may be wrong here, but I'd have thought it would have to be scanning the PS2 Pass-through in order to know if a key on the keyboard has been pressed?? can you explain why that's not the case please.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

OK heres how it works:
The pass-through input consists of a clock and a data line as you probably know. The chip is set to generate an interrupt every time the clock line goes low.
The interrupt routine drives a bit-level state counter which clocks in each bit of the pass-through keyboard data using a state machine. So it can do this while doing its other tasks. There is also a byte-level state machine which assembles the processed byte.
So, when the keyboard is idle, no interrupts are generated and no processing is required by the pass through. It is not polled at all.
Even when the keyboard is in use, there is very little overhead as the interrupt routine which clocks in the bits is very short.
Andy

[AndyWarne]

 I could post some links to the docs online, but I dont know if Andy would appreciate it if I did. Even tho he doesnt actively censor what chips he uses are, I think I will leave it up to people to do their own detective work...

I would not mind at all. The I-PAC uses the Cypress CY7C63413 chip. But this is like saying "This blank CD-R I have bought means I can now produce a hit album". The chip is blank when purchased, there is the small matter of developing all the code to program into it. In fact the ROM on that chip is crammed full, the additional features of the I-PAC such as the self-test LED which indicates wiring problems, the built-in interactive programming, the dual PS/2 USB interface, keyboard LED support and active pass-through add up to a lot of code. But the core code which is used in actual gameplay is compact of course.
In fact regarding the auto-detection of the interface type, this is not built into the chip at all, its coded. I worked closely with a Cypress development engineer with getting that piece of code right and the resulting enhancements found their way into Logitech dual-interface keyboards.
Its easy to see from a picture of the Keywiz that it uses the same chip (although they seem to sand off the part numbers on their chips for some strange reason) but its a different animal of course, different coding.

[Teknique]

I use both an ipac4 and 2x 49way wiz (similar to keywiz) encoders.  Maybe it is because I play with the ipac more but I found the 49way inputs less intuitive especially the use of the shazamm /shift feature.     
I  like the added control I get with plugging in my keyboard to the ipac and doing diagostic type stuff like checking for shorts or bad cherry switches.  That said, I am very pleased with my 49way encoders as well and would buy them again to use just for the joysticks... even though they have additional inputs that can be used.  For general keyboard encoder fuctions though, Id buy an ipac again.

Tek

[Fozzy The Bear]

OK heres how it works:

Thanks Andy.... I get it now.... It's running a separate state counter. Cool bit of coding.

I'm just about to start using the Cypress chips on another project that has nothing to do with arcade machines. They really are very adaptable little beasts. I notice they incorporated your passthrough and auto interface detection directly into some of their other chips now. They should be paying you a development fee ROFL 

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)