Which is better - I-pac or KeyWiz keyboard encoder?

[onespriggan]

Hello,

I am new to the keyboard encoder scene and was wondering which product was better, the I-pac or the Keywiz.  They both seem to have similar features.  I am looking for the most user friendly one and easy to navigate interface.  I will only have (2) 8-way joysticks with 7 buttons each.  It will be running under Windows XP. 

thanks 

[Fozzy The Bear]

I am new to the keyboard encoder scene and was wondering which product was better, the I-pac or the Keywiz.  They both seem to have similar features.  I am looking for the most user friendly one and easy to navigate interface.  I will only have (2) 8-way joysticks with 7 buttons each.  It will be running under Windows XP. 

Both of them are good quality products from very reliable vendors. Both of them will do what you want to do. Both of them are eaqually easy to use and set up. Both of them have flawless support.

So at the end of the day, "you pays your money you takes your choice."

Personally I use Keywiz encoders, because I like them. But that doesn't mean that they're better than the Ipac, but they are a little bit cheaper and for me the Shazaaam shift function works well.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

Fozzy pretty well nailed it.

I use the KeyWiz.

KeyWiz has more inputs.  I-Pac supports USB.  I-Pac remembers programming settings and is likely faster to re-program, but I rarely re-program mine.

More Info here:

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

This is probably a coke vs. pepsi question.   

I have an Ipac.  I dig it.  Andy at Ultimarc was SUPER helpful.  The wiring was a breeze, and I have never in my life wired something before my Ipac.  If I can do it, ANYONE can, haha.

I then got an optipac for my trackball, and it was just as easy.

[SavannahLion]

Here's another way to look at it.

What else are you going to order? Both of them offer a few exclusives designs as well as variations on similar products. For instance, if you're going to order the cold cathode lighting then you might as well bundle your purchase with an iPac and Opti-Pac if need be.

Of course, you can order from both 

[Xam]

This is one of the few times that you cannot make a wrong decision. I personally use Keywiz, but as Fozzy mentioned, this is not saying that it is better than I-PAC.

Both vendors have excellent reputations here as well as both products.

Xam

[Fozzy The Bear]

I-Pac remembers programming settings and is likely faster to re-program, but I rarely re-program mine.

That said, Keywiz includes the uploader software that will re-program it on the fly when you start a particular emulator, or re-program it at boot up for your custom configuration. So it doesn't need to store the information in hardware. It's horses for courses really.  Nuf Said!! They both work fine.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[unclet]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?  If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

[Fozzy The Bear]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?  If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

Yes and Yes.... Keywiz Max includes a pass-thru connector and switch. It's not a pass-thru as such as it's independant of the keywiz, which does have advantages:

From Randy's site: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_80&products_id=199

"The KeyWiz Max 1.5 comes with the same great High-Performance core features of the KeyWiz product line. Added to this are the industrial-quality terminal blocks and an easy-to operate switched PS/2 keyboard port that is completely isolated from the KeyWiz processor. This means you can still use that old keyboard, when you absolutely must, without burdening the cpu with cycle-theiving pass-through code or loss of inputs for your controls."

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?

Yes

If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

The Max does but you have to flip a switch on the KeyWiz for the pass-thru to be active.  The better solution is to use a wireless or USB keyboard to configure MAME.

[Tiger-Heli]

That said, Keywiz includes the uploader software that will re-program it on the fly when you start a particular emulator, or re-program it at boot up for your custom configuration. So it doesn't need to store the information in hardware. It's horses for courses really.  Nuf Said!! They both work fine.

I should have clarified - I use a removable desktop CP with the KeyWiz and hotswap it in and out.  The software does not work if I don't have the KeyWiz plugged in when I launch it, and it takes about 10 seconds under WinXP (faster under Win98).  I like the KeyWiz default codeset better than the I-Pac default and use it and go out of my way to avoid re-programming it, but for a true arcade cab most of these "problems" would disappear.

[DeLuSioNal29]

It also depends on how many players you want on your panel.  I would have bought a Keywiz, since I ordered a TON of stuff from GroovyGameGear.com and it would have been easier and I could have saved on shipping, but the Keywiz encoders did not have as many inputs in one single encoder.  I'm sure you could daisy chain more than one, but I was new at this stuff and didn't want to have to deal with that.  The ipac4 was the answer for me.  Again, it depends how many inputs you need.

For calculating the number of inputs:  (this was confusing for me when I was a newbie so I figured I'd include it)
-  Keep in mind that the 8 way joys only take up 4 inputs per joystick.  The diagonals are actually pressing two at the same time.
-  You can "double-up" inputs.  This is good for things like 4 ways sharing the same inputs at 8 ways for player 1.

Example for calculating inputs on a typical 2 player panel with 6 buttons per player:
2 - joysticks (1 for each player) = 8 inputs
1 - 4 way joystick = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one 8 way inputs which does not need any additional inputs)
6 - buttons for each player = 12 inputs
2 - credit buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
2 - start buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
4 - pinball buttons (2 on the left side of panel (on the side) and 2 on the right) = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one buttons 1 & 2)
24 inputs total in this example
Or you can have less if you use the shift/Shazam button.

The KeyWiz-ST can handle up to 32 inputs so is ideal for a 2 player setup.
The Ipac4 can handle up to 56 inputs so is ideal for a 4 player setup.

Note:  Spinners and/or trackball use separate encoders from the joysticks and buttons.  The Groovy Game Gear Spinner (Turbo Twist 2) comes with it's own USB interface built in as does the Electric Ice-T Trackball (USB) so no encoders are needed for those.  Other brands will need additional encoders that do not come with the trackball/spinner.  (i.e. - Ultimarc's optipac encoder for spinners/trackballs).

Hope this helped!

~ DeLuSioNaL

[DeLuSioNal29]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?

Yes

If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

The Max does but you have to flip a switch on the KeyWiz for the pass-thru to be active.  The better solution is to use a wireless or USB keyboard to configure MAME.

On the flip side, The Ultimarc ipacs have a pass through for keyboards directly on the encoder as well that is always active.

So to clarify further:  The ipac has two PS2 ports on it.  One plugs in to the computer with the included PS2 wire and the other port (pass thru) on the encoder is where you would plug in your PS2 keyboard.

[Avrus]

Mini-Pac because it comes with wiring harness.   

[MazzMn]

Fozzy pretty well nailed it.

I use the KeyWiz.

KeyWiz has more inputs.  I-Pac supports USB.  I-Pac remembers programming settings and is likely faster to re-program, but I rarely re-program mine.

I wanted to have USB support and save a little money, so I tried the GPWiz Eco 32
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_81&products_id=234

This confused me at first as it created Joystick output and not Keyboard output. Randy from GGG pointed me to JoytoKey which converts joystick output to keyboard output (free windows pgm). Once I got this things were much easier. Only slight problem is it can't differentiate between ctl left and ctl right, shift left and shift right...no big deal

http://www.groovygamegear.com/jtk379en.zip

[CheffoJeffo]

For calculating the number of inputs:  (this was confusing for me when I was a newbie so I figured I'd include it)
-  Keep in mind that the 8 way joys only take up 4 inputs per joystick.  The diagonals are actually pressing two at the same time.
-  You can "double-up" inputs.  This is good for things like 4 ways sharing the same inputs at 8 ways for player 1.

Example for calculating inputs on a typical 2 player panel with 6 buttons per player:
2 - joysticks (1 for each player) = 8 inputs
1 - 4 way joystick = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one 8 way inputs which does not need any additional inputs)
6 - buttons for each player = 12 inputs
2 - credit buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
2 - start buttons (1 for each player) = 2 inputs
4 - pinball buttons (2 on the left side of panel (on the side) and 2 on the right) = 0 inputs ("doubles-up" on player one buttons 1 & 2)
24 inputs total in this example
Or you can have less if you use the shift/Shazam button.

The KeyWiz-ST can handle up to 32 inputs so is ideal for a 2 player setup.
The Ipac4 can handle up to 56 inputs so is ideal for a 4 player setup.

Note:  Spinners and/or trackball use separate encoders from the joysticks and buttons.  The Groovy Game Gear Spinner (Turbo Twist 2) comes with it's own USB interface built in as does the Electric Ice-T Trackball (USB) so no encoders are needed for those.  Other brands will need additional encoders that do not come with the trackball/spinner.  (i.e. - Ultimarc's optipac encoder for spinners/trackballs).

 

A very useful example ... thanks for taking the time.

 

[onespriggan]

thanks for the quick responses everyone!  This clears up a lot of questions I had.  I think I will try out the KeyWiz. 

[Havok]

Does the KeyWiz connect to the PS2 keyboard port of the computer?  If so, then does the KeyWiz allow for a normal keyboard to be connected with a pass-thru connector?

I use a Keywiz, and have a usb keyboard hooked up at the same time - works great, and I don't have to flip a switch...

** Edit **

The Keywiz is ps/2 only...

[Singapura]

I put exactly the same question on the Mameworld board this morning! Thanks for the information 

[protokatie]

Mini-Pac because it comes with wiring harness.   Grin

If you order the right one it does . Or you can order the minipac without the harness if you want to make your own I guess.. There are two versions of the minipac, and you can get the one with the optical capabilities as well (I went with the cheaper one since I dont plan on having spinners or the like)

I am a NewB at this, so the obvious choice for me was the minipac, and would definetly recommend it to other NewBs as well. If I get into the addiction of making arcade cabs, I will prolly go for Ipac4's for 4player cabs, and may look into keywiz.

If you are good at dealing with wiring, and dont need a hole tonne of inputs, my suggestion would be to flip a coin to choose between Ipac and keywiz...

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a lot of the gaming vendors are less competitive, and more cooperative than the vendors in other areas of interest.  Perhaps that spawns from it being a very "by the people, for the people" pastime..

[protokatie]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a lot of the gaming vendors are less competitive, and more cooperative than the vendors in other areas of interest.  Perhaps that spawns from it being a very "by the people, for the people" pastime..

Ive gotten the same basic vibe. Also, I have noted that the better the vendors are about things (IE in honesty) the better everything is for everyone. Hell, even Andy said that a competing product was basically the same as his minipac, and even recommended it to another person (As a suggestion as a replacement of a product the other company sold that had ghost keys)! All this, and Andy (instead of profiting) gave an honest and helpful reply for free!

I do really like that not only are most of the people involved in this, but also most of the vendors as well, are more like a community.

KUDDOS to all of the great people who have kept the arcade alive! (Too many names to list tho )

[Tiger-Heli]

Hell, even Andy said that a competing product was basically the same as his minipac, and even recommended it to another person (As a suggestion as a replacement of a product the other company sold that had ghost keys)! All this, and Andy (instead of profiting) gave an honest and helpful reply for free!

Just want to clarify - Andy recommended a product from a competing company that was based on a board that he sells to the competing company.  So if the OP buys that product from Gremlin, Gremlin in turn needs to buy another mini-pac from Andy to replace it.

I agree it was a good move, and I am not faulting Andy at all for it, but your "instead of profiting" goes a bit far in this case.

[missioncontrol]

here's a retroblast review

http://www.retroblast.com/Hardware/RetroBlast-Review-KeyWiz-Keyboard-Encoder.php

[patrickl]

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

BTW you can use the IPAC ps/2 cable with a passive ps/2 usb adapter to hook it up to a USB port. So even if you buy it with ps/2 now you can always switch later. Most people will have one of these adapters laying around (I think I collected at least a few dozen over the years).

[missioncontrol]

another review


http://www.retroblast.com/Hardware/The-Ultimarc-Mini-Pac-Encoder.php

I-Pac review, but it's horribly out of date now (PS-2 only, etc...)

http://www.retroblast.com/Hardware/RetroBlast-IPAC-Review.php

[Tiger-Heli]

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

Not sure how many new PC's are lacking PS/2 ports, but if you don't have one the KeyWiz isn't for you.  This then becomes a GP-Wiz vs. I-PAC issue, but not for this thread.

BTW you can use the IPAC ps/2 cable with a ps/2 usb adapter to hook it up to a USB port. So even if you buy it with ps/2 now you can always switch later. Most people will have one of these adapters laying around (I think I collected at least a few dozen over the years).

I am not sure that works with the I-PAC or not - there is a USB cable that you could probably buy separately from Andy that will work.  I tried the adapter route with the KeyWiz with less than stellar results, but I can't say that the I-Pac would be the same.

[patrickl]

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

Not sure how many new PC's are lacking PS/2 ports, but if you don't have one the KeyWiz isn't for you.  This then becomes a GP-Wiz vs. I-PAC issue, but not for this thread.

Of the last 5 computer I bought over the last few years none had a PS/2 connector.

BTW you can use the IPAC ps/2 cable with a ps/2 usb adapter to hook it up to a USB port. So even if you buy it with ps/2 now you can always switch later. Most people will have one of these adapters laying around (I think I collected at least a few dozen over the years).

I am not sure that works with the I-PAC or not - there is a USB cable that you could probably buy separately from Andy that will work.  I tried the adapter route with the KeyWiz with less than stellar results, but I can't say that the I-Pac would be the same.

I'm talking about something like this. Works fine. I use it too.

BTW I'm not making this up. Andy confirmed that it works (in threads here on BYOAC even). The IPAC basically is a ps/2 + USB capable device. Just what those little adapters were made for.

[RandyT]

Of the last 5 computer I bought over the last few years none had a PS/2 connector.

That's because you keep buying computers that don't have them.    We did this dance a few years back when people were incorrectly predicting that the demise of PS/2 was "right around the corner" (and I think you were one of them, using the same shaky argument).  As I stated then, it isn't going to happen any time soon.  I don't know how it is in the EU, but those "legacy free" systems traditionally don't sell well here.  I see them on the surplus sites as new stock (not re-furbs like the higher spec machines with legacy support.)  And they sell only marginally well at reduced price.

Consumers still demand that their systems support legacy hardware, and as long as they do, you will continue to see it on the majority of systems.  Nobody intentionally opts for less compatibility out of their $500+ investment, and I personally would never buy one lacking in ports unless it was A: Very inexpensive and B: Slated for a very specific purpose like a set-top multimedia box.

That being said, it's hard to say how long new consumers will continue to demand it, as the lower end systems from mainstream marketers are starting to go USB.  But that still doesn't change the availability of all those legacy systems that are perfect for dedicated Arcade systems

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

BTW I'm not making this up. Andy confirmed that it works (in threads here on BYOAC even). The IPAC basically is a ps/2 + USB capable device. Just what those little adapters were made for.

I didn't accuse you of that - I merely stated that those adapters don't work (well the kind I tried) with the KeyWiz, and RandyT has said as much before.

[TheShanMan]

I was surprised to still see a serial port and parallel port on my latest mb I bought a few weeks ago. Amazing how long this legacy stuff stays around.

[protokatie]

Just want to clarify - Andy recommended a product from a competing company that was based on a board that he sells to the competing company.  So if the OP buys that product from Gremlin, Gremlin in turn needs to buy another mini-pac from Andy to replace it.

Ahh, ok. The way I had read it was that the thing gremlin was selling was only based off of the minipac (IE the chip and the way to wire it). I didnt realise that Gremlin was reselling minipacs... NM, sorries.

BTW, a few months ago I ran across the company that makes the chips in the IPAC, quite an interesting list of capabilities the thing has. With the right firmware, you could almost turn the thing into a full fledged CPU-like device.

[Tiger-Heli]

Ahh, ok. The way I had read it was that the thing gremlin was selling was only based off of the minipac (IE the chip and the way to wire it). I didnt realise that Gremlin was reselling minipacs... NM, sorries.

I can't state specifics, but I believe the chip is pretty common - any company selling the a competing device with the chip would be legal to do so.  I imagine the mini-pac firmware is proprietary, so any company selling a device with the chip and Andy's firmware on it (if they didn't buy the board and chip from Andy) would likely be in legal trouble in short order.  While Gremlin could in theory use the same chip and their own firmware to accomplish the same thing, I doubt Andy would refer to the product as "based on our Mini-Pac" and could be in legal trouble if he did so.

But it's not quite right to say Gremlin is reselling minipacs - I believe what they are selling is likely an entire coin return mechanism that incorporates the mini-pac in it's design.  So it's not the same product that you buy from Ultimarc, but for each one sold, Ultimarc gets a new order to replenish Gremlin's stock.

Sorry for the long clarification (and any possible inaccuracies).

[AndyWarne]

Just to clarify the PS/2 to USB converter/adaptor issue:

There are two types of device available:

Active converter modules.
These take the PS/2 protocol and convert to USB using active circuitry. These will not work with any PS/2 gaming device because they will suffer from a key-press limit and will also clear out the keystrokes every couple of seconds to avoid stuck keys. This is fine for a keyboard but would make gameplay impossible since any held-down key would be cleared after a couple of seconds.

Passive adaptors.
These can be used just fine with the I-PAC and the results are the same as using our own USB cable. The I-PAC auto-detects the interface its connected to and invokes different internal firmare for USB or PS/2. It is two devices in one. So running with one of these adaptors renders it a native USB device, not a PS/2 device converted into USB. The small green adaptor plugs fit into this category.

Just another comment relevant to a point mentioned earlier in this thread: the PS/2 pass-through on the I-PAC does not use any clock cycles at all if the keyboard is not being used.

Andy

[Fozzy The Bear]

Just another comment relevant to a point mentioned earlier in this thread: the PS/2 pass-through on the I-PAC does not use any clock cycles at all if the keyboard is not being used.

Now that's interesting Andy. Can you explain how it achieves that?? I may be wrong here, but I'd have thought it would have to be scanning the PS2 Pass-through in order to know if a key on the keyboard has been pressed?? can you explain why that's not the case please.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

I may be wrong here, but I'd have thought it would have to be scanning the PS2 Pass-through in order to know if a key on the keyboard has been pressed?? can you explain why that's not the case please.

Im sure Andy's reply above was better than this one, but in the docs for the chip it mentioned as one of the features that it had circuitry built on the chip that did the detection of USB/PC as well as formatting the output to the detected type. This is from my memory from a month ago, but it did seem to mention actual dedicated circuitry for that. I could post some links to the docs online, but I dont know if Andy would appreciate it if I did. Even tho he doesnt actively censor what chips he uses are, I think I will leave it up to people to do their own detective work...

[AndyWarne]

Now that's interesting Andy. Can you explain how it achieves that?? I may be wrong here, but I'd have thought it would have to be scanning the PS2 Pass-through in order to know if a key on the keyboard has been pressed?? can you explain why that's not the case please.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

OK heres how it works:
The pass-through input consists of a clock and a data line as you probably know. The chip is set to generate an interrupt every time the clock line goes low.
The interrupt routine drives a bit-level state counter which clocks in each bit of the pass-through keyboard data using a state machine. So it can do this while doing its other tasks. There is also a byte-level state machine which assembles the processed byte.
So, when the keyboard is idle, no interrupts are generated and no processing is required by the pass through. It is not polled at all.
Even when the keyboard is in use, there is very little overhead as the interrupt routine which clocks in the bits is very short.
Andy

[AndyWarne]

 I could post some links to the docs online, but I dont know if Andy would appreciate it if I did. Even tho he doesnt actively censor what chips he uses are, I think I will leave it up to people to do their own detective work...

I would not mind at all. The I-PAC uses the Cypress CY7C63413 chip. But this is like saying "This blank CD-R I have bought means I can now produce a hit album". The chip is blank when purchased, there is the small matter of developing all the code to program into it. In fact the ROM on that chip is crammed full, the additional features of the I-PAC such as the self-test LED which indicates wiring problems, the built-in interactive programming, the dual PS/2 USB interface, keyboard LED support and active pass-through add up to a lot of code. But the core code which is used in actual gameplay is compact of course.
In fact regarding the auto-detection of the interface type, this is not built into the chip at all, its coded. I worked closely with a Cypress development engineer with getting that piece of code right and the resulting enhancements found their way into Logitech dual-interface keyboards.
Its easy to see from a picture of the Keywiz that it uses the same chip (although they seem to sand off the part numbers on their chips for some strange reason) but its a different animal of course, different coding.

[Teknique]

I use both an ipac4 and 2x 49way wiz (similar to keywiz) encoders.  Maybe it is because I play with the ipac more but I found the 49way inputs less intuitive especially the use of the shazamm /shift feature.     
I  like the added control I get with plugging in my keyboard to the ipac and doing diagostic type stuff like checking for shorts or bad cherry switches.  That said, I am very pleased with my 49way encoders as well and would buy them again to use just for the joysticks... even though they have additional inputs that can be used.  For general keyboard encoder fuctions though, Id buy an ipac again.

Tek

[Fozzy The Bear]

OK heres how it works:

Thanks Andy.... I get it now.... It's running a separate state counter. Cool bit of coding.

I'm just about to start using the Cypress chips on another project that has nothing to do with arcade machines. They really are very adaptable little beasts. I notice they incorporated your passthrough and auto interface detection directly into some of their other chips now. They should be paying you a development fee ROFL 

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[AndyWarne]

I'm just about to start using the Cypress chips on another project that has nothing to do with arcade machines. They really are very adaptable little beasts. I notice they incorporated your passthrough and auto interface detection directly into some of their other chips now. They should be paying you a development fee ROFL 

If they have used my pass-through code I need to know about it! But I cant imagine why or where they would use a keyboard pass-through.
The auto-detect code thats in some of the Cypress reference designs is an early version which gets it wrong quite often. The later version was a joint effort between myself and Cypress and, yes, I did get paid for it!
Beware of using these chips now though as in some packages they are obsolete and others they are in "not recommended for new design" status which means they will go obsolete soon. Another problem with these chips is that the development boards are expensive and crap (Cypress openly admit this!). I suppose I cant complain though as I never bought mine, I just blagged them off Cypress.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Beware of using these chips now though as in some packages they are obsolete and others they are in "not recommended for new design" status which means they will go obsolete soon.

I guess, that means you and Randy are going to be looking for a new core chip very shortly then.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Grasshopper]

Of the last 5 computer I bought over the last few years none had a PS/2 connector.

That's because you keep buying computers that don't have them.    We did this dance a few years back when people were incorrectly predicting that the demise of PS/2 was "right around the corner" (and I think you were one of them, using the same shaky argument).......

I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure most full size ATX motherboards still have PS/2 connectors but they're far less common on smaller form factor boards, and very few laptops have them.  The trend seems to be towards much smaller computers and motherboards so eventually lack of space is likely to dictate that the legacy ports will slowly disappear.

[Tiger-Heli]

Sure most full size ATX motherboards still have PS/2 connectors but they're far less common on smaller form factor boards, and very few laptops have them.  The trend seems to be towards much smaller computers and motherboards so eventually lack of space is likely to dictate that the legacy ports will slowly disappear.

Points taken, but very few people are buying the KeyWiz for use on a laptop (maybe for a bartop cab, but that would be a small fraction of total sales).  For arcade cab builders buying new motherboards, if you want to use the KeyWiz, you can find a board with PS/2 ports, just like if you have two IDE CD's and an IDE HD, you can find a board with two IDE controllers (with a lot of looking), and for cab builders buying used hardware or upgrading their primary CPU and moving the old one to the cab, the boards will likely still have legacy support by definition of their age.

[RandyT]

I apologize in advance for the long and technical posts that are about to ensue.  Some of this I have brought up in the past.  If you don't care about these types of things, feel free to stop reading now

So, when the keyboard is idle, no interrupts are generated and no processing is required by the pass through. It is not polled at all.

Ok, I'm not going to state that there is always functional speed impact on a well implemented pass-through, but I do know a thing or two about the Cypress CY7C63413 Microcontroller.  You state that the IPAC "Does not use a scanning method which causes a variable delay" and is "interrupt driven" so the following must apply.  I won't even go into why it's impossible to know what is happening on the inputs without "scanning" or why scanning can actually be as fast (or faster) and uniform in speed.  But we can if you would like.

One very important thing to understand when considering how these chips function is that the GPIO (General Purpose Input / Output) interrupt is a single interrupt linked to all inputs set to trigger it.  On a device setup to be "interrupt" driven on it's inputs, all inputs would be set to trigger the GPIO interrupt.  That means that when the interrupt is triggered, the only way to know if it was the keyboard clock line that triggered it, rather than one of the other inputs, is to specifically examine that bit for activity. It would do this any time a button was pressed, a joystick was moved, etc.  Every time, without exception.

From the datasheet:

------

GPIO Interrupt

Each of the 32 GPIO pins can generate an interrupt, if enabled.  The interrupt polarity can be programmed for each GPIO port as part of the GPIO configuration. All of the GPIO pins share a single interrupt vector, which means the firmware will need to read the GPIO ports with enabled interrupts to determine which pin or pins caused an interrupt.


------

So it would be inaccurate to state that a "pass-through" does not use any clock cycles when not triggered.  It's status is checked every time the GPIO interrupt is triggered, otherwise it cannot know what exactly caused the interrupt. One could even accurately state that all inputs are "scanned" whenever one of them is pulled low (button press, etc.), and that's only if the interrupts are not disabled due to another interrupt driven service being acted upon at that moment.  Microcontrollers can only use the CPU for one thing at a time, period, interrupt driven or not.

Furthermore, clocking in bits from the keyboard (or other serial devices) is very timing sensitive, so interrupts which would normally be generated by GPIO ports would be held off.  If the same method were used in daisy chaining controllers, or used internally on a 4-player controller between microcontrollers, one would always be held off while another was being serviced.  Very messy and not the most efficient approach, which is another reason I don't support it.

As an aside, Pass-through ports are pretty much moot nowadays.  USB keyboards are cheap, they don't impact the encoder used at all, and work very happily alongside KeyWiz's, IPAC's, etc...

Its easy to see from a picture of the Keywiz that it uses the same chip (although they seem to sand off the part numbers on their chips for some strange reason) but its a different animal of course, different coding.

As for why we take the numbers off of the chips, it's spelled out in this very thread.  Laypersons aren't fully up to speed with the concept that a microcontroller is a "brick" without the code that gives it life / purpose.  Those same individuals often believe that chips which can be purchased at the local "electronics hut" have only the value of the purchase price, but without understanding how they work, the value of the software is not considered. Much like saying the media for the latest PS3 game costs less than a dollar, why do the games cost sixty? By removing identifying markings, the foundation for that incorrect assumption is removed.  BTW, it's a very common practice, especially for "caseless" products.

Is there anything else I can clear up for you regarding GGG's practices?   

RandyT

[patrickl]

you can find a board with PS/2 ports

The point is that many (most) PC's come without ps/2 port these days. No one is going to replace a mb just to get a PS/2 port.

[RandyT]

I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure most full size ATX motherboards still have PS/2 connectors but they're far less common on smaller form factor boards, and very few laptops have them.  The trend seems to be towards much smaller computers and motherboards so eventually lack of space is likely to dictate that the legacy ports will slowly disappear.

I took a look at the Abit site yesterday and a lot more than just "full size" boards have them.  I also checked the local Wal-Mart last night.  They don't use "full size" boards in those systems, and they all had the legacy ports.  Most (all?) even had PS/2 Keyboard and Mice included.  Keep in mind that these are "new and current" product lines.

This "sky is falling" argument as pertaining to PS/2 was being put out, what, close to 5 years ago now?  My prediction at that time has proven itself to be correct.  MS wants it gone so it can strip support from new Windows versions (like that will help the bloat any ).  But it's not really up to them.  They don't make motherboards and the motherboard manufacturers can't sell stripped down motherboards to consumers who won't buy them.  Again, how long legacy ports last is in the hands of consumers, and they have proven that to be that case over the last several years.

]The point is that many (most) PC's come without ps/2 port these days. No one is going to replace a mb just to get a PS/2 port.

Again, look at the MB manufacturers current offerings.  You will find this statement to be in error.  I would say that Wal-Mart (and other department stores) sell as many, if not more computers than Dell, who is currently forcing non-legacy systems through lack of other options.  And no, people will not replace a system they already have to get a PS/2 port (nor should they), but consumers are looking for the legacy inputs and it affects their decision.

RandyT

[patrickl]

BTW I'm not talking about not non-legacy. Just no PS/2. I got no complaints from the people who I bought these things for.

[Havok]

you can find a board with PS/2 ports

The point is that many (most) PC's come without ps/2 port these days. No one is going to replace a mb just to get a PS/2 port.

There is a multitude of motherboards out there that are current and have ps/2. Of course, if you're one of those people that buy pre-built systems, it's a little tougher to find. (Unless you go with business systems)

My thought is that if you're going to get into this hobby, then you're going to build your own pc, not buy a lame pre-built system...

[DeLuSioNal29]

My new AMD board I just built has PS2 connectors as well.  Bought in November of 2007.

[patrickl]

I'm saying to check if the PC that is to be used has a ps/2 port or not.

[protokatie]

My thought is that if you're going to get into this hobby, then you're going to build your own pc, not buy a lame pre-built system...

Hmm, I am just recycling an old compy that a friend gave to me. It does fine with NEOGEO stuff, so I dont see why getting a lame wally world PC would be a bad idea (since you can get some really cheap ones that have specs much higher than needed for most MAME games). As per legacy I/O, I dont think it matters much, for anything you have that needs it, there are cheap adapters out there.

All this "legacy" talk seems more like picking nits to me... When it comes down to it, at the end of the day, it doesnt really matter...

[Havok]

I was referring to patrickl's post about most computers not coming with ps2 ports. If you're recycling a pc, then that most likely is not the case.

Anyhow, you can get usb interfaces that work just as well, so - I'm with you, it doesn't really matter!

 

[patrickl]

Well it does matter if you buy the ps/2 solution and then find out your computer doesn't have the ps/2 connector that you assumed it had. Other than that indeed it doesn't matter. So again, simply check before you buy and don't assume that it has ps/2.

[AndyWarne]

So it would be inaccurate to state that a "pass-through" does not use any clock cycles when not triggered.  It's status is checked every time the GPIO interrupt is triggered,

No additional cycles are used by the pass-through when idle. I would not make this statement if it were not true. Its very strange being told, incorrectly, how my own code works. End of discussion on this subject as I don't want to have to apologize for boring everyone and I also don't want to explain how it works in any more detail than I already have.

[vrf]

off topic, but is it possible to use an Ipac or a Keywiz to emulate a ... keyboard? I want to rig up some typewriter keys to work as a PC keyboard. Possible? Too few inputs? Which encoder would work best? Would I need to buy a Hagstrom or something?

[Fozzy The Bear]

off topic, but is it possible to use an Ipac or a Keywiz to emulate a ... keyboard? I want to rig up some typewriter keys to work as a PC keyboard. Possible? Too few inputs? Which encoder would work best? Would I need to buy a Hagstrom or something?

Keywiz and Ipac are keyboard emulators..... well to be more accurate they're key encoders.

If this is just for typing on and not for arcade controls, then you could just use the matrix encoder from an actual keyboard. There are no arcade encoders that will give you the full 102 key input, although you could chain some together to do it.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[RandyT]

So it would be inaccurate to state that a "pass-through" does not use any clock cycles when not triggered.  It's status is checked every time the GPIO interrupt is triggered,

No additional cycles are used by the pass-through when idle. I would not make this statement if it were not true. Its very strange being told, incorrectly, how my own code works. End of discussion on this subject as I don't want to have to apologize for boring everyone and I also don't want to explain how it works in any more detail than I already have.

I am not telling you how your code works.  I am telling you how the chip works.  Your code must work within that limitation, end of story.  There is only one other way to accomplish what you say, but your marketing claims do not seem to support that method.

 

RandyT

[MameMaster!]

My 2 cents....both are excellent vendors and make great products....but, I prefer to use the XArcade USB kit.

It comes with the wires and all cables ready to hook up for a 1 or 2 player panel....making the set up super easy. In addition, their boards are out of the box, compatable with Dreamcast, Playstation 1/2, XBox and the GameCube/Wii.

For me, and my needs....that's the best value.

But that being said, both Randy and Andy make excellent products and you can't go wrong no matter what you choose.

[AndyWarne]

My 2 cents....both are excellent vendors and make great products....but, I prefer to use the XArcade USB kit.

It comes with the wires and all cables ready to hook up for a 1 or 2 player panel....making the set up super easy. In addition, their boards are out of the box, compatable with Dreamcast, Playstation 1/2, XBox and the GameCube/Wii.

We do support all of those consoles too.
Andy

[KevSteele]

Don't worry about it Andy, MAMEmaster's a known X-Arcade Shill fan (just kidding, Mitch!) 

The X-Arcade encoder is a bit less versatile than the other encoders, but not horribly so (it just doesn't include software to reprogram the keys, I believe - it's been a while since I've used one)

As to the question at hand -- each encoder has different design decisions which affect their capabilities and feature set. Compare them and their feature set, and pick the one that fits what your project needs are.

As to the PS/2 problem - if you're planning on upgrading your system in the future to a new motherboard, it'd probably be wise to pick an encoder that can handle both PS/2 and USB, or can be easily adapted. I would think having to swap out an encoder in the future when you upgrade your motherboard would be a pain.

I'm a big fan of the I-pac's non-volatile key settings and auto-passthrough keyboard hookup, both of which I use on my cab, but if you need multiple sets of key assignments for different games, the Keywiz is probably a good solution.

Don't bother with the marketing buzzwords and such - do a feature comparison and pick the features that are most important to you. Should make choosing the right encoder pretty easy.

[meismr]

Patrickl you sure do like spreading the fud don't you...
"Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it."  Do you have any data to support this claim?  Go to newegg.com and look at the motherboards...  Out of the 31 on the 'deals' page, 30 have a keyboard ps2 port.

You've been sounding the death knell for ps/2 for years though,
"I would not be surprised if you'd have to "shop around" in as little as 2 years to still find a new PC with a PS/2 port. "  patrickl June 15, 2004

[patrickl]

Patrickl you sure do like spreading the fud don't you...
"Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it."  Do you have any data to support this claim?  Go to newegg.com and look at the motherboards...  Out of the 31 on the 'deals' page, 30 have a keyboard ps2 port.

You've been sounding the death knell for ps/2 for years though,
"I would not be surprised if you'd have to "shop around" in as little as 2 years to still find a new PC with a PS/2 port. "  patrickl June 15, 2004

You do have a lot of trouble reading don't you? If you could learn to read instead of trying to piss great distances it would be greatly appreciated.

Lemme help you a bit again. Maybe if I write in  lowly coder logic you will understand:

MB != PC

I bought a computer without a PS/2 port already back then yes. I was quite surprised about that so I warned people not to make the same mistake. I have since bought more and these also didn't have a ps/2 port.

[meismr]

Maybe you should proof read what you type instead of talking about piss...

Way to attack (feebly I might add) anything other than the your central argument that most motherboards still have a keyboard ps/2 port.  So your statement that most don't have have a ps/2 port is fud.  I brought data to support my claim, where's yours?

[patrickl]

I brought data to support my claim, where's yours?

Ehm ... learn to read? Seriously:

I bought a computer without a PS/2 port already back then ... I have since bought more and these also didn't have a ps/2 port.

[meismr]

Seriously... Find out what statistics are... Seriously.
All 120 pc's I bought for work had a serial connector.  That must mean serial connections are popular on new pc's. 

Get data to support your claim or get owned.   

[saint]

Seriously... Find out what statistics are... Seriously.
All 120 pc's I bought for work had a serial connector.  That must mean serial connections are popular on new pc's. 

Get data to support your claim or get owned.   

This was not necessary to make your point. Quit it.

[patrickl]

All 120 pc's I bought for work had a serial connector.  That must mean serial connections are popular on new pc's. 

What does that have to do with anything? IIRC the computers I bought (helped buy) all had serial and parallel ports too. Just no PS/2.

I'm not even talking about business computers. I recently witnessed a first phase rollout of workstations for the dutch government. Thousands of ps/2-less computers. AFAIK only a few people complained. For instance a guy who insists on using his Dvorak keyboard. Anyway, those computers would probably not be usable for games/MAME so it's not really important. I'm talking about home computers with media/gaming capabilities.

I have to admit that I'm surprised that ps/2 still exists and that the new and improved BTX mainboard design still has not replaced ATX completely. Guess it's easier to make money off the same old design rather than improve on things and they probably tried to change too much at the same time. Or home builders probably just don't realise that BTX is better and keep on buying ATX boards because that's what they know. Still a lot of manufacturers do use BTX boards. Especially for off the shelf PC's.

Still, like I said before. I bought a computer from a store. Wanted to hook up my IPAC and I couldn't because the computer didn't have ps/2. I went back to the store and they had no computers with a ps/2 port (besides some $3000 towers). Luckily I could switch to USB on the I-PAC.

I don't see why this is an issue of so much debate. I simply did not get a ps/2 port on my computer back in 2004 and I did not get one in present day computers. I did not go out of my way to get no ps/2. It's not just Apple, Dell, Fujitsu Siemens and Medion who use use less (or no) ps/2. The stores I went to didn't have a ps/2 port on other brands of PC's either. Good enough indication for me to warn people not to make the same mistake and check if the PC they have actually supports ps/2 before they commit to ps/2.

Besides, there are perfectly good USB alternatives available so why not simply go with USB anyway?

[meismr]

Jumping off the thread.  Don't want to piss off Saint.

[RandyT]

I don't see why this is an issue of so much debate. I simply did not get a ps/2 port on my computer back in 2004 and I did not get one in present day computers. I did not go out of my way to get no ps/2.

My point was that you also did not go out of your way to get one that had it, either.  Other consumers apparently are doing this and they want those ports to be there, or they would be gone by now.  Here, they are so common you can still find them everywhere, so your experience is apparently atypical and based on locale or your shopping habits.

The stores I went to didn't have a ps/2 port on other brands of PC's either.

Find a different store?  A small sampling of retailers is not sufficient to indicate an industry trend.

Good enough indication for me to warn people not to make the same mistake and check if the PC they have actually supports ps/2 before they commit to ps/2.

Good enough advice.  If you had left it at that initially, I'm guessing we would not be having this "debate" 

Besides, there are perfectly good USB alternatives available so why not simply go with USB anyway?

Yes, there are.  But USB is not always the answer.  If you look at virtually every time someone has had a problem using USB, they are told to "switch to PS/2" and somehow that always seems to work.  99.9% of the time, PS/2 is trouble free because of the maturity of the implementations.  It's a fast, true FIFO port that does this task very well so it should be considered as an option, especially for those who might be using a USB keyboard on a system that has one.  There's little reason not to put that port to use in this application.

RandyT

[protokatie]

Just as per my personal experience:

All of the PC's I have bought were Compaq's....

All of the Compaq towers I bought had the color coded PS/2's on them, but oddly came with a USB mouse (but a PS/2 keyboard, if anyone can make any sense out of that...)

My compaq Laptop has no PS/2 ports, but has 2 USB ports.

Over the years, I have seen more computers with no PS/2, but still most of the newer ones I have seen still have them. I could see a time in the "somewhat" near future where they will eventually fade away, but I am not overly concerned, since I make it a point never to get anything that only has a PS/2 plug. (Largely due to my laptop being my primary compy, and it not having a single PS/2)

[protokatie]

If you look at virtually every time someone has had a problem using USB, they are told to "switch to PS/2" and somehow that always seems to work.

Now that you say that, I kinda wished that Andy had an option on his site to get both cables (instead of just one or the other). Or I guess I could always shoot down to the nearest RadioShack and buy a PS/2 patch cable if it becomes an issue.

[patrickl]

Good enough indication for me to warn people not to make the same mistake and check if the PC they have actually supports ps/2 before they commit to ps/2.

Good enough advice.  If you had left it at that initially, I'm guessing we would not be having this "debate" 

Well here is the advice I gave initially:

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

Pretty much the same you say I should have said. At best one could debate wether it's "most", "many", "more and more" or whatever.

This is not about a single retail store. Just look at off the shelf PC's. Indeed I think HP/Compaq is just about the only manufacturer still making PC's with PS/2 ports in the desktop computer class. Servers/Big towers are still mostly old ATX technology, but "many"/"most"/"more and more" modern pre-built home PC's use BTX.

[onespriggan]

I guess I-Pac and KeyWiz should join forces to make the mother of all keyboard encoders.  Then I would not have to choose. 

[patrickl]

I could see a time in the "somewhat" near future where they will eventually fade away, but I am not overly concerned, since I make it a point never to get anything that only has a PS/2 plug.

Exactly 

If you look at virtually every time someone has had a problem using USB, they are told to "switch to PS/2" and somehow that always seems to work.

Now that you say that, I kinda wished that Andy had an option on his site to get both cables (instead of just one or the other). Or I guess I could always shoot down to the nearest RadioShack and buy a PS/2 patch cable if it becomes an issue.

Really, don't you have one of those passive USB<>PS2 adapters laying around? I bought my IPAC with the PS/2 cable and use it now with one of the many of passive adapters I collected over the years.

[protokatie]

Really, don't you have one of those passive USB<>PS2 adapters laying around? I bought my IPAC with the PS/2 cable and use it now with one of the many of passive adapters I collected over the years.

Never had a need for such an adaptor, so I dont have any laying around. I do have an old RS 232 serial to parallel converters I got for 100 bucks at rip-off-shack in the 90's tho... Ooo, and an RS 232 NULL modem and gender changer... Wow, has it been THAT long since I bought an IO converter??? (Now where is my 2400 Baud modem at?)

[Ed_McCarron]

I guess I-Pac and KeyWiz should join forces to make the mother of all keyboard encoders.  Then I would not have to choose. 

I-Wiz?

Nah, sounds too much like toilet humor.

[patrickl]

Really, don't you have one of those passive USB<>PS2 adapters laying around? I bought my IPAC with the PS/2 cable and use it now with one of the many of passive adapters I collected over the years.

Never had a need for such an adaptor, so I dont have any laying around. I do have an old RS 232 serial to parallel converters I got for 100 bucks at rip-off-shack in the 90's tho... Ooo, and an RS 232 NULL modem and gender changer... Wow, has it been THAT long since I bought an IO converter??? (Now where is my 2400 Baud modem at?)

No, no, sorry, I guess I really should learn to be more clear when I say that. It's the little adapters that come free with a ps/2 USB compatible device.

[protokatie]

I guess I-Pac and KeyWiz should join forces to make the mother of all keyboard encoders.  Then I would not have to choose.

Just go with a minipac for the first time out. With all things considered, it is the best geared toward us Newb's. It comes with a wire harness so you can just clip the wires right on to the buttons/etc. you dont need to crimp/strip/cut anything. It about as plug and play as you are going to get for an arcade based keyboard controller.

[protokatie]

No, no, sorry, I guess I really should learn to be more clear when I say that. It's the little adapters that come free with a ps/2 USB compatible device.

Hmm, you mean the adaptor thingy I have thrown away a few times because I didnt think I would ever need it? Hmm, nope, the seagulls own those now... Guess I should hold on to all of the hardware I get when I buy something... Or just go out and get a patch cable if it becomes needed.

[RandyT]

This is not about a single retail store. Just look at off the shelf PC's. Indeed I think HP/Compaq is just about the only manufacturer still making PC's with PS/2 ports.

Again, this view is rather myopic.   You should be looking at motherboard manufacturers.   There are so many different boards from so many manufacturers which are still including legacy I/O ports that one would need to be a bit naive to believe that those boards were only used by "individuals".  You are referring to strictly "lower end, mass marketed systems from a few specific companies".  Most people do not have "Dell" computers, but that is not an indicator that the systems "most" have are one-offs.  Better deals (and systems) can be had by purchasing base system configurations offered by smaller companies and there are thousands out there who offer them.  This is where the majority of systems come from where the owner is not a first time purchaser.

RandyT

[saint]

Jumping off the thread.  Don't want to piss off Saint.

Nah, debate away - just don't make it personal please.

[MinerAl]

FWIW the new Gateways we just bought at work have ps/2 keyboard ports.

Having said that, I have Macs and PCs at home, so an I-pac was the way to go when I wanted a controller that would work on everything.

I think both companies make top notch products.  When I get around to making my next cabinet, GGG offers a few things that I will be ordering for sure.  Andy has some unique products too so, based on that and the positive experiences in the past I'll be an Ultimarc customer too.