Which is better - I-pac or KeyWiz keyboard encoder?

[AndyWarne]

I'm just about to start using the Cypress chips on another project that has nothing to do with arcade machines. They really are very adaptable little beasts. I notice they incorporated your passthrough and auto interface detection directly into some of their other chips now. They should be paying you a development fee ROFL 

If they have used my pass-through code I need to know about it! But I cant imagine why or where they would use a keyboard pass-through.
The auto-detect code thats in some of the Cypress reference designs is an early version which gets it wrong quite often. The later version was a joint effort between myself and Cypress and, yes, I did get paid for it!
Beware of using these chips now though as in some packages they are obsolete and others they are in "not recommended for new design" status which means they will go obsolete soon. Another problem with these chips is that the development boards are expensive and crap (Cypress openly admit this!). I suppose I cant complain though as I never bought mine, I just blagged them off Cypress.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Beware of using these chips now though as in some packages they are obsolete and others they are in "not recommended for new design" status which means they will go obsolete soon.

I guess, that means you and Randy are going to be looking for a new core chip very shortly then.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Grasshopper]

Of the last 5 computer I bought over the last few years none had a PS/2 connector.

That's because you keep buying computers that don't have them.    We did this dance a few years back when people were incorrectly predicting that the demise of PS/2 was "right around the corner" (and I think you were one of them, using the same shaky argument).......

I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure most full size ATX motherboards still have PS/2 connectors but they're far less common on smaller form factor boards, and very few laptops have them.  The trend seems to be towards much smaller computers and motherboards so eventually lack of space is likely to dictate that the legacy ports will slowly disappear.

[Tiger-Heli]

Sure most full size ATX motherboards still have PS/2 connectors but they're far less common on smaller form factor boards, and very few laptops have them.  The trend seems to be towards much smaller computers and motherboards so eventually lack of space is likely to dictate that the legacy ports will slowly disappear.

Points taken, but very few people are buying the KeyWiz for use on a laptop (maybe for a bartop cab, but that would be a small fraction of total sales).  For arcade cab builders buying new motherboards, if you want to use the KeyWiz, you can find a board with PS/2 ports, just like if you have two IDE CD's and an IDE HD, you can find a board with two IDE controllers (with a lot of looking), and for cab builders buying used hardware or upgrading their primary CPU and moving the old one to the cab, the boards will likely still have legacy support by definition of their age.

[RandyT]

I apologize in advance for the long and technical posts that are about to ensue.  Some of this I have brought up in the past.  If you don't care about these types of things, feel free to stop reading now

So, when the keyboard is idle, no interrupts are generated and no processing is required by the pass through. It is not polled at all.

Ok, I'm not going to state that there is always functional speed impact on a well implemented pass-through, but I do know a thing or two about the Cypress CY7C63413 Microcontroller.  You state that the IPAC "Does not use a scanning method which causes a variable delay" and is "interrupt driven" so the following must apply.  I won't even go into why it's impossible to know what is happening on the inputs without "scanning" or why scanning can actually be as fast (or faster) and uniform in speed.  But we can if you would like.

One very important thing to understand when considering how these chips function is that the GPIO (General Purpose Input / Output) interrupt is a single interrupt linked to all inputs set to trigger it.  On a device setup to be "interrupt" driven on it's inputs, all inputs would be set to trigger the GPIO interrupt.  That means that when the interrupt is triggered, the only way to know if it was the keyboard clock line that triggered it, rather than one of the other inputs, is to specifically examine that bit for activity. It would do this any time a button was pressed, a joystick was moved, etc.  Every time, without exception.

From the datasheet:

------

GPIO Interrupt

Each of the 32 GPIO pins can generate an interrupt, if enabled.  The interrupt polarity can be programmed for each GPIO port as part of the GPIO configuration. All of the GPIO pins share a single interrupt vector, which means the firmware will need to read the GPIO ports with enabled interrupts to determine which pin or pins caused an interrupt.


------

So it would be inaccurate to state that a "pass-through" does not use any clock cycles when not triggered.  It's status is checked every time the GPIO interrupt is triggered, otherwise it cannot know what exactly caused the interrupt. One could even accurately state that all inputs are "scanned" whenever one of them is pulled low (button press, etc.), and that's only if the interrupts are not disabled due to another interrupt driven service being acted upon at that moment.  Microcontrollers can only use the CPU for one thing at a time, period, interrupt driven or not.

Furthermore, clocking in bits from the keyboard (or other serial devices) is very timing sensitive, so interrupts which would normally be generated by GPIO ports would be held off.  If the same method were used in daisy chaining controllers, or used internally on a 4-player controller between microcontrollers, one would always be held off while another was being serviced.  Very messy and not the most efficient approach, which is another reason I don't support it.

As an aside, Pass-through ports are pretty much moot nowadays.  USB keyboards are cheap, they don't impact the encoder used at all, and work very happily alongside KeyWiz's, IPAC's, etc...

Its easy to see from a picture of the Keywiz that it uses the same chip (although they seem to sand off the part numbers on their chips for some strange reason) but its a different animal of course, different coding.

As for why we take the numbers off of the chips, it's spelled out in this very thread.  Laypersons aren't fully up to speed with the concept that a microcontroller is a "brick" without the code that gives it life / purpose.  Those same individuals often believe that chips which can be purchased at the local "electronics hut" have only the value of the purchase price, but without understanding how they work, the value of the software is not considered. Much like saying the media for the latest PS3 game costs less than a dollar, why do the games cost sixty? By removing identifying markings, the foundation for that incorrect assumption is removed.  BTW, it's a very common practice, especially for "caseless" products.

Is there anything else I can clear up for you regarding GGG's practices?   

RandyT

[patrickl]

you can find a board with PS/2 ports

The point is that many (most) PC's come without ps/2 port these days. No one is going to replace a mb just to get a PS/2 port.

[RandyT]

I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure most full size ATX motherboards still have PS/2 connectors but they're far less common on smaller form factor boards, and very few laptops have them.  The trend seems to be towards much smaller computers and motherboards so eventually lack of space is likely to dictate that the legacy ports will slowly disappear.

I took a look at the Abit site yesterday and a lot more than just "full size" boards have them.  I also checked the local Wal-Mart last night.  They don't use "full size" boards in those systems, and they all had the legacy ports.  Most (all?) even had PS/2 Keyboard and Mice included.  Keep in mind that these are "new and current" product lines.

This "sky is falling" argument as pertaining to PS/2 was being put out, what, close to 5 years ago now?  My prediction at that time has proven itself to be correct.  MS wants it gone so it can strip support from new Windows versions (like that will help the bloat any ).  But it's not really up to them.  They don't make motherboards and the motherboard manufacturers can't sell stripped down motherboards to consumers who won't buy them.  Again, how long legacy ports last is in the hands of consumers, and they have proven that to be that case over the last several years.

]The point is that many (most) PC's come without ps/2 port these days. No one is going to replace a mb just to get a PS/2 port.

Again, look at the MB manufacturers current offerings.  You will find this statement to be in error.  I would say that Wal-Mart (and other department stores) sell as many, if not more computers than Dell, who is currently forcing non-legacy systems through lack of other options.  And no, people will not replace a system they already have to get a PS/2 port (nor should they), but consumers are looking for the legacy inputs and it affects their decision.

RandyT

[patrickl]

BTW I'm not talking about not non-legacy. Just no PS/2. I got no complaints from the people who I bought these things for.

[Havok]

you can find a board with PS/2 ports

The point is that many (most) PC's come without ps/2 port these days. No one is going to replace a mb just to get a PS/2 port.

There is a multitude of motherboards out there that are current and have ps/2. Of course, if you're one of those people that buy pre-built systems, it's a little tougher to find. (Unless you go with business systems)

My thought is that if you're going to get into this hobby, then you're going to build your own pc, not buy a lame pre-built system...

[DeLuSioNal29]

My new AMD board I just built has PS2 connectors as well.  Bought in November of 2007.

[patrickl]

I'm saying to check if the PC that is to be used has a ps/2 port or not.

[protokatie]

My thought is that if you're going to get into this hobby, then you're going to build your own pc, not buy a lame pre-built system...

Hmm, I am just recycling an old compy that a friend gave to me. It does fine with NEOGEO stuff, so I dont see why getting a lame wally world PC would be a bad idea (since you can get some really cheap ones that have specs much higher than needed for most MAME games). As per legacy I/O, I dont think it matters much, for anything you have that needs it, there are cheap adapters out there.

All this "legacy" talk seems more like picking nits to me... When it comes down to it, at the end of the day, it doesnt really matter...

[Havok]

I was referring to patrickl's post about most computers not coming with ps2 ports. If you're recycling a pc, then that most likely is not the case.

Anyhow, you can get usb interfaces that work just as well, so - I'm with you, it doesn't really matter!

 

[patrickl]

Well it does matter if you buy the ps/2 solution and then find out your computer doesn't have the ps/2 connector that you assumed it had. Other than that indeed it doesn't matter. So again, simply check before you buy and don't assume that it has ps/2.

[AndyWarne]

So it would be inaccurate to state that a "pass-through" does not use any clock cycles when not triggered.  It's status is checked every time the GPIO interrupt is triggered,

No additional cycles are used by the pass-through when idle. I would not make this statement if it were not true. Its very strange being told, incorrectly, how my own code works. End of discussion on this subject as I don't want to have to apologize for boring everyone and I also don't want to explain how it works in any more detail than I already have.

[vrf]

off topic, but is it possible to use an Ipac or a Keywiz to emulate a ... keyboard? I want to rig up some typewriter keys to work as a PC keyboard. Possible? Too few inputs? Which encoder would work best? Would I need to buy a Hagstrom or something?

[Fozzy The Bear]

off topic, but is it possible to use an Ipac or a Keywiz to emulate a ... keyboard? I want to rig up some typewriter keys to work as a PC keyboard. Possible? Too few inputs? Which encoder would work best? Would I need to buy a Hagstrom or something?

Keywiz and Ipac are keyboard emulators..... well to be more accurate they're key encoders.

If this is just for typing on and not for arcade controls, then you could just use the matrix encoder from an actual keyboard. There are no arcade encoders that will give you the full 102 key input, although you could chain some together to do it.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[RandyT]

So it would be inaccurate to state that a "pass-through" does not use any clock cycles when not triggered.  It's status is checked every time the GPIO interrupt is triggered,

No additional cycles are used by the pass-through when idle. I would not make this statement if it were not true. Its very strange being told, incorrectly, how my own code works. End of discussion on this subject as I don't want to have to apologize for boring everyone and I also don't want to explain how it works in any more detail than I already have.

I am not telling you how your code works.  I am telling you how the chip works.  Your code must work within that limitation, end of story.  There is only one other way to accomplish what you say, but your marketing claims do not seem to support that method.

 

RandyT

[MameMaster!]

My 2 cents....both are excellent vendors and make great products....but, I prefer to use the XArcade USB kit.

It comes with the wires and all cables ready to hook up for a 1 or 2 player panel....making the set up super easy. In addition, their boards are out of the box, compatable with Dreamcast, Playstation 1/2, XBox and the GameCube/Wii.

For me, and my needs....that's the best value.

But that being said, both Randy and Andy make excellent products and you can't go wrong no matter what you choose.

[AndyWarne]

My 2 cents....both are excellent vendors and make great products....but, I prefer to use the XArcade USB kit.

It comes with the wires and all cables ready to hook up for a 1 or 2 player panel....making the set up super easy. In addition, their boards are out of the box, compatable with Dreamcast, Playstation 1/2, XBox and the GameCube/Wii.

We do support all of those consoles too.
Andy

[KevSteele]

Don't worry about it Andy, MAMEmaster's a known X-Arcade Shill fan (just kidding, Mitch!) 

The X-Arcade encoder is a bit less versatile than the other encoders, but not horribly so (it just doesn't include software to reprogram the keys, I believe - it's been a while since I've used one)

As to the question at hand -- each encoder has different design decisions which affect their capabilities and feature set. Compare them and their feature set, and pick the one that fits what your project needs are.

As to the PS/2 problem - if you're planning on upgrading your system in the future to a new motherboard, it'd probably be wise to pick an encoder that can handle both PS/2 and USB, or can be easily adapted. I would think having to swap out an encoder in the future when you upgrade your motherboard would be a pain.

I'm a big fan of the I-pac's non-volatile key settings and auto-passthrough keyboard hookup, both of which I use on my cab, but if you need multiple sets of key assignments for different games, the Keywiz is probably a good solution.

Don't bother with the marketing buzzwords and such - do a feature comparison and pick the features that are most important to you. Should make choosing the right encoder pretty easy.

[meismr]

Patrickl you sure do like spreading the fud don't you...
"Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it."  Do you have any data to support this claim?  Go to newegg.com and look at the motherboards...  Out of the 31 on the 'deals' page, 30 have a keyboard ps2 port.

You've been sounding the death knell for ps/2 for years though,
"I would not be surprised if you'd have to "shop around" in as little as 2 years to still find a new PC with a PS/2 port. "  patrickl June 15, 2004

[patrickl]

Patrickl you sure do like spreading the fud don't you...
"Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it."  Do you have any data to support this claim?  Go to newegg.com and look at the motherboards...  Out of the 31 on the 'deals' page, 30 have a keyboard ps2 port.

You've been sounding the death knell for ps/2 for years though,
"I would not be surprised if you'd have to "shop around" in as little as 2 years to still find a new PC with a PS/2 port. "  patrickl June 15, 2004

You do have a lot of trouble reading don't you? If you could learn to read instead of trying to piss great distances it would be greatly appreciated.

Lemme help you a bit again. Maybe if I write in  lowly coder logic you will understand:

MB != PC

I bought a computer without a PS/2 port already back then yes. I was quite surprised about that so I warned people not to make the same mistake. I have since bought more and these also didn't have a ps/2 port.

[meismr]

Maybe you should proof read what you type instead of talking about piss...

Way to attack (feebly I might add) anything other than the your central argument that most motherboards still have a keyboard ps/2 port.  So your statement that most don't have have a ps/2 port is fud.  I brought data to support my claim, where's yours?

[patrickl]

I brought data to support my claim, where's yours?

Ehm ... learn to read? Seriously:

I bought a computer without a PS/2 port already back then ... I have since bought more and these also didn't have a ps/2 port.

[meismr]

Seriously... Find out what statistics are... Seriously.
All 120 pc's I bought for work had a serial connector.  That must mean serial connections are popular on new pc's. 

Get data to support your claim or get owned.   

[saint]

Seriously... Find out what statistics are... Seriously.
All 120 pc's I bought for work had a serial connector.  That must mean serial connections are popular on new pc's. 

Get data to support your claim or get owned.   

This was not necessary to make your point. Quit it.

[patrickl]

All 120 pc's I bought for work had a serial connector.  That must mean serial connections are popular on new pc's. 

What does that have to do with anything? IIRC the computers I bought (helped buy) all had serial and parallel ports too. Just no PS/2.

I'm not even talking about business computers. I recently witnessed a first phase rollout of workstations for the dutch government. Thousands of ps/2-less computers. AFAIK only a few people complained. For instance a guy who insists on using his Dvorak keyboard. Anyway, those computers would probably not be usable for games/MAME so it's not really important. I'm talking about home computers with media/gaming capabilities.

I have to admit that I'm surprised that ps/2 still exists and that the new and improved BTX mainboard design still has not replaced ATX completely. Guess it's easier to make money off the same old design rather than improve on things and they probably tried to change too much at the same time. Or home builders probably just don't realise that BTX is better and keep on buying ATX boards because that's what they know. Still a lot of manufacturers do use BTX boards. Especially for off the shelf PC's.

Still, like I said before. I bought a computer from a store. Wanted to hook up my IPAC and I couldn't because the computer didn't have ps/2. I went back to the store and they had no computers with a ps/2 port (besides some $3000 towers). Luckily I could switch to USB on the I-PAC.

I don't see why this is an issue of so much debate. I simply did not get a ps/2 port on my computer back in 2004 and I did not get one in present day computers. I did not go out of my way to get no ps/2. It's not just Apple, Dell, Fujitsu Siemens and Medion who use use less (or no) ps/2. The stores I went to didn't have a ps/2 port on other brands of PC's either. Good enough indication for me to warn people not to make the same mistake and check if the PC they have actually supports ps/2 before they commit to ps/2.

Besides, there are perfectly good USB alternatives available so why not simply go with USB anyway?

[meismr]

Jumping off the thread.  Don't want to piss off Saint.

[RandyT]

I don't see why this is an issue of so much debate. I simply did not get a ps/2 port on my computer back in 2004 and I did not get one in present day computers. I did not go out of my way to get no ps/2.

My point was that you also did not go out of your way to get one that had it, either.  Other consumers apparently are doing this and they want those ports to be there, or they would be gone by now.  Here, they are so common you can still find them everywhere, so your experience is apparently atypical and based on locale or your shopping habits.

The stores I went to didn't have a ps/2 port on other brands of PC's either.

Find a different store?  A small sampling of retailers is not sufficient to indicate an industry trend.

Good enough indication for me to warn people not to make the same mistake and check if the PC they have actually supports ps/2 before they commit to ps/2.

Good enough advice.  If you had left it at that initially, I'm guessing we would not be having this "debate" 

Besides, there are perfectly good USB alternatives available so why not simply go with USB anyway?

Yes, there are.  But USB is not always the answer.  If you look at virtually every time someone has had a problem using USB, they are told to "switch to PS/2" and somehow that always seems to work.  99.9% of the time, PS/2 is trouble free because of the maturity of the implementations.  It's a fast, true FIFO port that does this task very well so it should be considered as an option, especially for those who might be using a USB keyboard on a system that has one.  There's little reason not to put that port to use in this application.

RandyT

[protokatie]

Just as per my personal experience:

All of the PC's I have bought were Compaq's....

All of the Compaq towers I bought had the color coded PS/2's on them, but oddly came with a USB mouse (but a PS/2 keyboard, if anyone can make any sense out of that...)

My compaq Laptop has no PS/2 ports, but has 2 USB ports.

Over the years, I have seen more computers with no PS/2, but still most of the newer ones I have seen still have them. I could see a time in the "somewhat" near future where they will eventually fade away, but I am not overly concerned, since I make it a point never to get anything that only has a PS/2 plug. (Largely due to my laptop being my primary compy, and it not having a single PS/2)

[protokatie]

If you look at virtually every time someone has had a problem using USB, they are told to "switch to PS/2" and somehow that always seems to work.

Now that you say that, I kinda wished that Andy had an option on his site to get both cables (instead of just one or the other). Or I guess I could always shoot down to the nearest RadioShack and buy a PS/2 patch cable if it becomes an issue.

[patrickl]

Good enough indication for me to warn people not to make the same mistake and check if the PC they have actually supports ps/2 before they commit to ps/2.

Good enough advice.  If you had left it at that initially, I'm guessing we would not be having this "debate" 

Well here is the advice I gave initially:

Check if your computer has ps/2. Most new computers don't have ps/2 ports anymore so you would be hard pressed to attach a ps/2 device to it.

Pretty much the same you say I should have said. At best one could debate wether it's "most", "many", "more and more" or whatever.

This is not about a single retail store. Just look at off the shelf PC's. Indeed I think HP/Compaq is just about the only manufacturer still making PC's with PS/2 ports in the desktop computer class. Servers/Big towers are still mostly old ATX technology, but "many"/"most"/"more and more" modern pre-built home PC's use BTX.

[onespriggan]

I guess I-Pac and KeyWiz should join forces to make the mother of all keyboard encoders.  Then I would not have to choose. 

[patrickl]

I could see a time in the "somewhat" near future where they will eventually fade away, but I am not overly concerned, since I make it a point never to get anything that only has a PS/2 plug.

Exactly 

If you look at virtually every time someone has had a problem using USB, they are told to "switch to PS/2" and somehow that always seems to work.

Now that you say that, I kinda wished that Andy had an option on his site to get both cables (instead of just one or the other). Or I guess I could always shoot down to the nearest RadioShack and buy a PS/2 patch cable if it becomes an issue.

Really, don't you have one of those passive USB<>PS2 adapters laying around? I bought my IPAC with the PS/2 cable and use it now with one of the many of passive adapters I collected over the years.

[protokatie]

Really, don't you have one of those passive USB<>PS2 adapters laying around? I bought my IPAC with the PS/2 cable and use it now with one of the many of passive adapters I collected over the years.

Never had a need for such an adaptor, so I dont have any laying around. I do have an old RS 232 serial to parallel converters I got for 100 bucks at rip-off-shack in the 90's tho... Ooo, and an RS 232 NULL modem and gender changer... Wow, has it been THAT long since I bought an IO converter??? (Now where is my 2400 Baud modem at?)

[Ed_McCarron]

I guess I-Pac and KeyWiz should join forces to make the mother of all keyboard encoders.  Then I would not have to choose. 

I-Wiz?

Nah, sounds too much like toilet humor.

[patrickl]

Really, don't you have one of those passive USB<>PS2 adapters laying around? I bought my IPAC with the PS/2 cable and use it now with one of the many of passive adapters I collected over the years.

Never had a need for such an adaptor, so I dont have any laying around. I do have an old RS 232 serial to parallel converters I got for 100 bucks at rip-off-shack in the 90's tho... Ooo, and an RS 232 NULL modem and gender changer... Wow, has it been THAT long since I bought an IO converter??? (Now where is my 2400 Baud modem at?)

No, no, sorry, I guess I really should learn to be more clear when I say that. It's the little adapters that come free with a ps/2 USB compatible device.

[protokatie]

I guess I-Pac and KeyWiz should join forces to make the mother of all keyboard encoders.  Then I would not have to choose.

Just go with a minipac for the first time out. With all things considered, it is the best geared toward us Newb's. It comes with a wire harness so you can just clip the wires right on to the buttons/etc. you dont need to crimp/strip/cut anything. It about as plug and play as you are going to get for an arcade based keyboard controller.

[protokatie]

No, no, sorry, I guess I really should learn to be more clear when I say that. It's the little adapters that come free with a ps/2 USB compatible device.

Hmm, you mean the adaptor thingy I have thrown away a few times because I didnt think I would ever need it? Hmm, nope, the seagulls own those now... Guess I should hold on to all of the hardware I get when I buy something... Or just go out and get a patch cable if it becomes needed.