Keyboard encoder

[DiGi]

Hi ive got a ps2 keyboard encoder that works fine i wanted to conect the coin mech up it has Cred,Lamp,MTR  12v and 0v.  Ive wired the 12v and 0v into the pc hard drive connector then tried using the Cred and 0v wire to the spade connectors for coin but when i use virtual keyboard it shows that it lights up about 12 keys but also adds the credit when in a game, now i know i should have asked and searched first but when i looked just i saw about the voltage a ipac needs and so if i carry on am i likely to be sending too much of a voltage to the encoder and killing it.

Cheers

DiGi

[Avrus]

Hi ive got a ps2 keyboard encoder that works fine i wanted to conect the coin mech up it has Cred,Lamp,MTR  12v and 0v.  Ive wired the 12v and 0v into the pc hard drive connector then tried using the Cred and 0v wire to the spade connectors for coin but when i use virtual keyboard it shows that it lights up about 12 keys but also adds the credit when in a game, now i know i should have asked and searched first but when i looked just i saw about the voltage a ipac needs and so if i carry on am i likely to be sending too much of a voltage to the encoder and killing it.

Cheers

DiGi

I'll bite.

Do you have an Ipac, or some other sort of encoder?  If you have some other sort of encoder, brand would be good, as well as how you have it plugged in (USB or PS/2 connector).

What kind of coin mech do you have?  Pictures?

I didn't follow about the 'spade connectors' and I didn't understand what you were saying about credits in the game.  Does it work currently, or does it not work?

Your 12v should just be going to the lamps.

[Fozzy The Bear]

I'll bite as well..... we need to know what coin mech this is that you are powering from 12V on the PC supply. We also need to know what interface it actually has... is it a serial or parallel one.....

I have a feeling that you're trying to connect an electronic coin mech directly to your IPac. This is a no no!! You'll need to go via a credit board to do that. The credit board will then send the correct pulses for coin up to the IPac....  As far as I know the inputs for coin up on the encoder need to be 5V not 12V... you can achieve that with a dropping resistor and maybe a voltage regulator. But to do that you'll need to know what you're doing and it sounds to me like you don't.

Please be more specific about what you are trying to do and what is actually happening, your initial description is a bit on the confusing side. Photographs and/or diagrams of what and how you have connected things would help.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) 

[Avrus]

I'll bite as well..... we need to know what coin mech this is that you are powering from 12V on the PC supply. We also need to know what interface it actually has... is it a serial or parallel one.....

I have a feeling that you're trying to connect an electronic coin mech directly to your IPac. This is a no no!! You'll need to go via a credit board to do that. The credit board will then send the correct pulses for coin up to the IPac....  As far as I know the inputs for coin up on the encoder need to be 5V not 12V... you can achieve that with a dropping resistor and maybe a voltage regulator. But to do that you'll need to know what you're doing and it sounds to me like you don't.

Please be more specific about what you are trying to do and what is actually happening, your initial description is a bit on the confusing side. Photographs and/or diagrams of what and how you have connected things would help.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) 

What no rippage on him for the lack of paragraphs, punctuation and spelling?  Fozzy I'm disappointed.   

[DiGi]

What no rippage on him for the lack of paragraphs, punctuation and spelling?  Fozzy I'm disappointed.   

I know it looks bad but if id passed my English exams id be more than happy to get told off at least i usually remember to use spell check 

Right to start off i used the word mech instead of board in the original post and probably some other things that probably confused you the reference to the ipac was just about the voltage it needed to get it working properly.

I am using the following:


http://www.gremlinsolutions.co.uk/products/gsarcade.htm

The coin mech is a Mars MS111TS have no documentation for it and it is connected to a old version of this credit board.


http://www.dmkent.co.uk/credit-coindt.htm

Ive wired the power from a PC`s PSU hard drive connection to the credit board then added 2 more wires to the credit board one to the pin called cred the other to the 0v which i believe is correct to get a signal that a coin is inserted ,  the other ends i then connected to the crimp connections ( i also call them spade ) of the encoder wiring for coin (button 5 ) this is were a micro switch would usually be.

I measured the voltage from the pin for cred and it was 0.06 on a voltmeter set at  20 DC this dropped between 0-6 when  different coin`s were inserted but its telling the keyboard encoder that about 12 keys have been pressed and not just button 5 and that is what the problem is.

If im using mame in a game if i put £1 it will give me 8 credits but it will also open the volume key and the test screen , and if im in windows and use virtual keyboard program it shows 12 keys light up when a coin is inserted .

Hope i have give you a better understanding and not caused more confusion.

Thanks

DiGi

[Fozzy The Bear]

OK start by disconnecting the Mars Mech from the credit board......  Then hit the credit button on the credit board.... What happens??  Is the encoder still showing about 12 keys pressed??

I'm not sure why it would be showing 12 keys pressed if the connection between the credit board and the encoder is only on two wires, connected to Ground and Coin Up on the key encoder.

If you haven't made 12 connections to the key encoder it's a bit of a mystery why it's showing 12 keys pressed. You might want to add a dropping resistor into the line there to pull the voltage down from 12V to 5V. Stick a meter on it and figure out what you need to limit the current. If it seems to the encoder to be sending coin up all the time then that 0.06V might be enough to be triggering the encoder input. The resistor should cure that one by pulling that voltage right down to next to nothing.

This sounds like more of a problem with the encoder than the connections made. I can dig out the manuals for mars mechs if you need them. Although if it needs a re-program it'll be a bit of a bugger without the right kit to do it.

Do you have a manual for the credit board?? Without that it's going to be impossible to tell if the dip switches are set correctly for the price of play that you want to set and the type of output you want. That's a Kent, credit board... I might be able to dig out a manual for it if I can figure out exactly which one it is. The trouble with them is that they're all different in the switch settings.

To be honest, that GS Arcade box is the suspect here..... They're not the best choice of encoder on the planet. They have ghosting and key blocking problems. You say it coins up during a game... do you mean without an intentional coin up signal?? that could be a result of key ghosting where when you hit combinations of buttons others get triggered at the same time, due to the poor key matrix based encoder.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[RandyT]

Again, Fozzy is right on the money. 

Those encoders are junk, unless you are building a small panel with very few controls.   They are falsely advertised.  I know this because I wasted money buying one when I suspected these were inferior items being pushed onto unsuspecting members of the community with improper specifications.  It turned out that I was correct.  These are nothing more than a standard, matrixed keyboard chip.  A pre-hacked keyboard, if you will.  Severe blocking and ghosting problems, even though the description specifically, and deceitfully, states they don't have these issues.

The seller is still selling them on ebay with the fraudulent description, even though I informed him of the problems with them. 

I posted on these in the past, but I'm bringing it up again to hopefully help spare someone the expense and aggravation of these things.

As for why this is making 12 keys pressed with one....  Because these operate on a matrix, there is no common ground.  To get a keypress out of a matrix, the encoder will internally change the state of a row/column and then look for a state change of a member of another row/column to see if they are connected (through a switch).  If you hook the 0v (ground) to a row or column of a matrix, it has the effect of overriding the internal function that does that, thus indicating that every one of the keys on that row/column is activated.  This description is a little simplistic, but I'm sure it what you are experiencing.

The short of it is that the coin board is incompatible with that "encoder".  None of the input lines can be grounded, only connected to other input lines on the board.  Your coin mech seems to require a ground on one side.  The only workaround I can think of would be to use an analog switching chip (or tiny relay), and possibly an inverter between the coin mech and the "encoder" to connect two lines of the encoder together when the coin mech sends a pulse.  But that won't help the other issues you're sure to experience with that "encoder".

RandyT

[Orclord]

kit to do it.

Do you have a manual for the credit board?? Without that it's going to be impossible to tell if the dip switches are set correctly for the price of play that you want to set and the type of output you want.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

In the link he provides there is a tech spec sheet.


http://www.dmkent.co.uk/pdf/coin_dt.pdf

*Edit*

---Cleveland steamer--- just read the "Old version" bit....

Must stop drinking.....

Tomorrow maybe..

[RandyT]

According to the manual, the relay output is a factory installed option.  So, as Fozzy stated, without knowing the specifics of the board being used, it's impossible to know if its set up properly, or even capable of being set-up that way.  The board picture shown has a big empty spot where the relay would be, so if it looks like that, the only option would be to add one somehow.

RandyT

[DiGi]

Thanks for the help so far looks like it may be a no go then but this is what I'm getting at the moment. Its the same with or without the credit mech connected.

This is what happens with the credit button pressed

If i hold the credit button all the keys flash and cycle but CTRL button bottom left stays on even after i stop holding the  credit button , until i press the button that CTRL is assigned to which is player 1 button 2.

I then noticed that if i hold the Cred wire onto one of the crimps it shows the same as above without the ground wire connected while if on the other crimp it shows as clear even with the ground connected until the credit button is pressed.

I took a photo of my board



It has PCB 84275 by the chip with the sticker and the dip switches i left as they were originally but i presumed they used a similar credit and bonus plan to the one in the link above which is on there as a pdf file,  I have no other information i did contact DM Kent for the price of a new one but they told me there new ones may be incompatible with the MS111TS stating

"The current COIN+DT boards are only compatible with coin mechs where the signal common is referenced to 0V (which covers all current production by all known manufacturers). 
If you have technical literature on the coin mech. then check that the electrical interface description states that the "signal common" (or similar wording) can be grounded, 0V, low or similar wording.  Alternatively it might state that the interface is bipolar or "dual voltage" or similar."

Don't know if this helps there was a bit more info in the email which i could post but i don`t want to waste peoples time i am able to do a few things but Ive forgotton most of my electrical training i had in my teens.

Edit:

You say it coins up during a game... do you mean without an intentional coin up signal?? that could be a result of key ghosting where when you hit combinations of buttons others get triggered at the same time, due to the poor key matrix based encoder.

The coin when inserted to the mech trigers the credits correcly  but because of all the other key triggering i get the test screen and the volume options, the encoder works fine if im using a microswitch  ive had virtual encoder up and tried as many 10 inputs and they seem to be fine.

Ive just tried pressing the button  which is assigned to the letter F this now highlights 14 more buttons but dfferent to the ones in the picture  but only when the credit board is wired else it works fine

Thanks again

DiGi

[Fozzy The Bear]

OK..... Well I'm afraid to tell you this but the Mars Mech that you have is NOT 0V Low.... So you need to keep using the credit board that you have there. 

My advice is to ditch that crappy key encoder altogether and buy a KeyWiz.... They're not expensive and Randy is about the most helpful guy on the planet if you run into any problem. Visit http://www.GroovyGameGear.com and order one today. The KeyWiz Eco 2 is only $21.95 US Dollars..... That's about £11 UK Pounds.

You will need to stick a resistor on the credit line to pull it down to 5V though... Otherwise you'll fry the inputs on the KeyWiz.... I've no doubt that Randy will be able to advise you of the correct value.

You may even be able to send that GS Encoder back to Gremlin Solutions and get a refund on it, on the grounds that their description is a breach of the "Trades Descriptions Act" because it DOES have ghosting and key blocking problems (contrary to thier advertising) and is therefore unfit for the purpose it is being sold for.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[DiGi]

OK..... Well I'm afraid to tell you this but the Mars Mech that you have is NOT 0V Low.... So you need to keep using the credit board that you have there. 

Thanks for the reply but that confused me  little because even without the Mars Mech connected to the credit  board i get the same problem ,  so i presume your saying that if i get a key wiz and a new coin mech the credit board should work with it ? or would i still need to buy a credit board to ensure compatibility ?.

Thanks

DiGi 

[Fozzy The Bear]

Thanks for the reply but that confused me  little because even without the Mars Mech connected to the credit  board i get the same problem ,  so i presume your saying that if i get a key wiz and a new coin mech the credit board should work with it ? or would i still need to buy a credit board to ensure compatibility ?.

No..... What I'm saying is keep the coin mech and the credit board..... There's nothing wrong with them. Unplugging the mech and pressing the credit button confirmed that the mech was not defective, because you got the same result.  Having only two wires connected to the encoder confirmed that the credit board is not defective. That Mech and Credit Board are a perfect match for each other. The output is perfect and working fine.

The only thing that is not working as advertised is your keyboard encoder! it's a piece of junk that needs to go back to Gremlin Solutions for a refund.

The only thing you need to buy is a new keyboard encoder. Recommend the KeyWiz.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[DiGi]

Ok thanks

If i was to send it back could you do me one last thing and give me a short explanation of what the problem is ,  because although it states it supports insert coin it doesn't say it supports coin mechs although as i said previously with a microswitch connected technically the encoder works fine as far i can tell so far.

Thanks

DiGi

[Fozzy The Bear]

If i was to send it back could you do me one last thing and give me a short explanation of what the problem is

The problem is as Randy Turner said, It's a Matrix Encoder.... It's no better than an ordinary keyboard with wires soldered to it. In fact the chip in it is exactly that. it's a chip designed for a keyboard not for arcade controls. So it suffers from "key ghosting" which is why you end up with 12 keys appearing to be pressed when you actually only connected 1 input.

They falsely advertise it as not having key ghosting and key blocking problems when in actual fact it suffers very badly from that, just as you have experienced here.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[AndyWarne]

I have spoken to Gremlin several times about that GS box. I really wish they would discontinue it. Gremlin also sell kits based on our Mini-PAC board. See if you can get them to swap it over for one of those. You can tell tham I sent you hehe....
Andy

[DiGi]

Thanks everyone for the help. 

I got my 2nd project  dropped off last night a candy cab unfortunately its  pretty much gutted and has quite a few cig burns but it was left with the 19" touchscreen and lead so i  tested it on my PC and it works fine just need use the serial lead in my other cab to test the controller board for the touchscreen on that, and there`s a kind of marquee light made from led`s  but haven't had a proper look to see if there`s anything that can be done with it.

I may use the keyboard encoder in that and use the experience as a lesson learned and buy one of the better products mentioned,  plus it doesn't have the coin mech anymore,  so i shouldn't have the problem above just need decide the cabs fate.

Thanks again

DiGi

[Fozzy The Bear]

I may use the keyboard encoder in that and use the experience as a lesson learned and buy one of the better products mentioned,  plus it doesn't have the coin mech anymore,  so i shouldn't have the problem above just need decide the cabs fate.

With the recommendation from Andy there... I'd be going straight back to Gremlin and asking them to swap it for one of his MiniPac encoders. They're a quality product that will cause you no problems. With Andy's name attached to the request you should have no problem getting them to swap it out for you.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

Digi, I would just say -- righty tighty -- to it and buy a real encoder, like one from Andy.

I placed an order with Andy and 2 days later it came (across the proverbial pond no less) and havent had any problems (Other than Andy not replying to my email about why I didnt get the prestigious ultimarc CD with the programming software on it (which I just later downloaded))

Also, note to Andy Warne: Can you add a line in the minipac install instruction to say "The first purple wire near the adapter key is the ground wire that you connect the ground daisy chain wire to".  I Know it sounds small, but after looking at the schematic and seeing it as GND I was sweating bullets and it took up some nerve to actually connect the ground of the switches to it, seeing as how it wasnt implicitly mentioned in the text part of the manual...

[AndyWarne]

I have amended the instructions as you suggest.

Regarding the email, I do always reply to emails without exception, so not sure what happened. I do recall receiving and answering an email about the CD a few days ago, so the reply must have got lost somewhere, apologies for that.

I can send a CD if you need it.
Andy

[protokatie]

I can send a CD if you need it.

No need, I got the program from the download section of your site. Thanx