Carriage Bolts On your CP: Tacky, or Tasteful?

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Just curious.  I'm considering just letting them shine on the CP.  I'm wanting to drill as little as possible...

[DrumAnBass]

Use T-Nuts under plexi or lexan. Much nicer not to see them.

[Afterburner]

Tacky.

T-nuts or use counter-sunk bolts.

I used countersunk bolts on all my controls.  Then overlaid the artwork to hide them.  Looks very clean.

[Avrus]

I recently looked at some older style cabinets, and they all had carriage bolts showing over the CPO.

[Franco B]

I used t-nuts on my first cab and they did the job fine.

I'm going to go for sunken carriage bolts on my cocktail purely because I'm going to CNC drill all the holes in CPs and counter bore the bolt holes from the top and fill the holes and then bolt the joys from behind. This should make it much stronger

T nuts will do the job fine though if you secure the t nuts properly. Drill the relief hole very slightly smaller than the diameter of the t nut. You will also want to use an adhesive to give the nuts some extra strength. 

If you have the ability to use sunken carriage bolts I would go for that option though, you can easily drill the holes and then route the 'counter bore' before filling the holes.

Thats if you want to hide the bolts that is, you can leave them proud but they look ugly IMO.

[2600]

I recently looked at some older style cabinets, and they all had carriage bolts showing over the CPO.

They most likely had metal Control Panels.  Try looking at control panels made of wood like Robotron or Donkey Kong.

[brock.sampson]

Not of a fan of bolts or exposed trackball plates.  I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.  I'm going to try to get some elevator bolts for the cabinet I'm building right now.   Should not have to recess them nearly as far as a standard carriage bolt.

[Sir Auros]

I remember almost every arcade game that got a lot of playtime from me having the carriage bolts on the outside, so I feel like they should be out there. I feel the same about joystick dust washers.

[patrickl]

I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.

How is a t-nut going to work itself loose over time?

[Franco B]

I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.

How is a t-nut going to work itself loose over time?

They can become loose quite easily if you don't install them properly.  If the hole is too big and you don't use glue etc, all that is holding them in is the prongs which don't take much effort to work loose.

[patrickl]

I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.

How is a t-nut going to work itself loose over time?

They can become loose quite easily if you don't install them properly.  If the hole is too big and you don't use glue etc, all that is holding them in is the prongs which don't take much effort to work loose.

Glue on a t-nut?

You hammer a T-Nut in and the only way it will works itself loose is if you forget to tighten the bolt on the bottom of the panel.

Whatever issue you might have with improperly installing a t-nut, a t-nut is structurally a lot stronger than a carriage bolt.

[Franco B]

Are we on about installing them from the top or bottom of the CP here?

[MaximRecoil]

You hammer a T-Nut in and the only way it will works itself loose is if you forget to tighten the bolt on the bottom of the panel.

Say what? A T-nut can come out the same way it went in, regardless of the tightness of the bolt. The T-nut grips the wood—the bolt screwed into it is irrelevant in regard to whether or not it will work loose.

Whatever issue you might have with improperly installing a t-nut, a t-nut is structurally a lot stronger than a carriage bolt.

Again, say what? You have that backwards. You could pry a T-nut mounted joystick off with a flat-bladed screw driver. All that is holding it there is the friction of the short T-nut prongs in the wood, which is about the same idea as mounting the joystick with 12 short nails (4 T-nuts, 3 short prongs each):



I'd like to see someone pry off a joystick mounted with carriage bolts. You'd have to either break the bolts themselves, break the nuts, or somehow pull the bolts completely through the wood (not very easy when the bolt head is a good deal larger than the hole in the wood that the bolt shafts go through).

Bolts are used for heavy duty structural applications where T-nuts wouldn't even hold for a moment.

[patrickl]

You hammer a T-Nut in and the only way it will works itself loose is if you forget to tighten the bolt on the bottom of the panel.

Say what? A T-nut can come out the same way it went in, regardless of the tightness of the bolt. The T-nut grips the wood—the bolt screwed into it is irrelevant in regard to whether or not it will work loose.

Whatever issue you might have with improperly installing a t-nut, a t-nut is structurally a lot stronger than a carriage bolt.

Again, say what? You have that backwards. You could pry a T-nut mounted joystick off with a flat-bladed screw driver. All that is holding it there is the friction of the short T-nut prongs in the wood, which is about the same idea as mounting the joystick with 12 short nails (4 T-nuts, 3 short prongs each):

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

[patrickl]

Are we on about installing them from the top or bottom of the CP here?

Doesn't matter. The bolt goes on one side and the nut on the other side. For this application it doesn't make much sense to put a t-nut on bottom though.

[MaximRecoil]

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

That's not how T-nuts are normally used but that method would be as strong (or nearly as strong) as mounting with carriage bolts. I say "nearly as strong" because a regular nut is stronger than a T-nut, but it wouldn't make much of a difference for mounting a joystick—both would be more than up to the task.

[patrickl]

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

That's not how T-nuts are normally used but that method would be as strong (or nearly as strong) as mounting with carriage bolts. I say "nearly as strong" because a regular nut is stronger than a T-nut, but it wouldn't make much of a difference for mounting a joystick—both would be more than up to the task.

Well that's how a t-nut is used in mounting a joystick to a control panel (the subject of the thread).

The difference and the reason for using the t-nut in this case, is that a t-nut can be installed without a visible nut or bolt head on the top side of the CP.

[MaximRecoil]

Well that's how a t-nut is used in mounting a joystick to a control panel (the subject of the thread).

The difference and the reason for using the t-nut in this case, is that a t-nut can be installed without a visible nut or bolt head on the top side of the CP.

Yeah, it makes sense. I never thought of adapting T-nuts for a novel application like that because they already make elevator bolts which will accomplish the same thing (and be a bit stronger in the process), particularly fanged elevator bolts if that sort of extra stabilization is important to you:

[Fozzy The Bear]

It all depends on what you're building and what you like personally...... I don't mind them, many original control panels had them so they're kind of authentic. But that said they're not always aesthetically pleasing so the answer is to go with what you like the look of. If they fit the theme of your cab then have them showing.

What I mean to say, is that at the end of the day it's about personal choice and what looks right to you.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[CheffoJeffo]

What Fozzy said, although  for all of those clowns who would call Galaga (or PacMan or Donkey Kong, etc.) tacky ...

 

[Avrus]

I remember almost every arcade game that got a lot of playtime from me having the carriage bolts on the outside, so I feel like they should be out there. I feel the same about joystick dust washers.

That was my feeling as well.  I mean, going through the trouble of building an arcade cabinet and them removing the carriage bolts? For me that would have been like not having a coin door.

That being said, if it made my cabinet look cooler I'm sure I would have considered it.   

[RandyT]

My opinion is that bolt heads were seen on panels only for purposes of cost and expedience.  There is only one circumstance in which the bolt heads serve a valuable purpose, and that is additional binding points to hold down a clear plexi or lexan overlay.  While that has mechanical benefit, it certainly doesn't do much for aesthetics.

With a few exceptions, carriage bolts were added by operators, rather than installed as original equipment by the manufacturer.  More likely than not, they were installed as a repair when the OEM mounting methods gave up the fight after a few years of abuse. 

As Fozzy stated, it's mostly about what you like, what you remember, and what you are trying to recreate.  Most manufacturers (then and now) try their best to hide hardware when possible, as the result is generally considered more pleasing to the eye unless the hardware is decorative or part of a specific theme.  But it is a matter of taste, pure and simple.

For the most part, you should never have to worry about your sticks breaking free if you use the right hardware.  You (hopefully) won't be leaving your machine in an unattended 24hr laundr-o-mat to be hammered on by drunken thugs, so the added durability of carriage bolts is probably not a concern here.

RandyT

[rovingmind]

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

That's not how T-nuts are normally used but that method would be as strong (or nearly as strong) as mounting with carriage bolts.

Actually that IS the way they are supposed to be used.  If the joysticks were undermounted the t-nut would go on top with the overlay covering them.  If the joysticks were topmounted, the tnut "should" go on the bottom with the stick and bolt heads recessed enough for the overlay to cover them. 

T-nuts were designed to work as blind nuts in wood.  After they get put in, the bolt puts pressure on it to pull it into the wood fibers.  Initially the prongs are there to take the place of having to use a wrench on the back.  They usually fail through poor initial installation or overtightening which causes the teeth to literaly cut a groove letting it spin, hence the use of glue to assist its holding power.  Once it starts spinning you cant get it to a proper torque to hold and the bolt can work loose like any other undertightened bolt.  If a joystick is top-mounted and the t-nut is on the topside of the panel also, thats just poor craftsmanship, or somebody in a hurry and didn't know any better.   If a cabinet manufacturer did this they might have been expecting the plexi to assist in holding it down. 

They do have some that CAN be used that way but they have a larger flat and nail holes to hold them to the wood.  You still have the, "screwdriver will pop them out" problem if you work at them.

edit:  i havnt dissassembled arcade cabinets, so i do not know how the manufacturers of them have used t-nuts.  I have used them in industrial uses where they have to meet their rated holding power to be ISO compliant.

[javeryh]

I've got black ones on my cocktail CPs (metal) but if I had to do it over (which I may yet do) I'd get rid of them.

[MaximRecoil]

Actually that IS the way they are supposed to be used.  If the joysticks were undermounted the t-nut would go on top with the overlay covering them.  If the joysticks were topmounted, the tnut "should" go on the bottom with the stick and bolt heads recessed enough for the overlay to cover them. 

T-nuts were designed to work as blind nuts in wood.  After they get put in, the bolt puts pressure on it to pull it into the wood fibers.  Initially the prongs are there to take the place of having to use a wrench on the back.  They usually fail through poor initial installation or overtightening which causes the teeth to literaly cut a groove letting it spin, hence the use of glue to assist its holding power.  Once it starts spinning you cant get it to a proper torque to hold and the bolt can work loose like any other undertightened bolt.  If a joystick is top-mounted and the t-nut is on the topside of the panel also, thats just poor craftsmanship, or somebody in a hurry and didn't know any better.   If a cabinet manufacturer did this they might have been expecting the plexi to assist in holding it down. 

They do have some that CAN be used that way but they have a larger flat and nail holes to hold them to the wood.  You still have the, "screwdriver will pop them out" problem if you work at them.

edit:  i havnt dissassembled arcade cabinets, so i do not know how the manufacturers of them have used t-nuts.  I have used them in industrial uses where they have to meet their rated holding power to be ISO compliant.

Have you ever seen the T-nuts on the bottom of an arcade machine for the leg levelers? How about speaker enclosures (T-nuts are often used for mounting the speakers—you don't want to go all the way through because that compromises the seal of the basket to the baffle).

In any event, T-nuts are typically used for screws that are going to be removed or adjusted often. They provide metal threads that don't strip as easily as wood, and that is their primary purpose. If someone needs a lot of holding power/clamping force, they use hex nuts or something along those lines (note how much burlier a hex nut is than a T-nut). Also keep in mind that the back side isn't always accessible in applications that call for T-nuts—and in the cases where the back side is accessible, most people would just opt for a conventional nut and bolt arrangement, if they needed a lot of strength.

The situation with an arcade control panel is not a common one. How many other applications can you think of where you need to bolt from the back side and have nothing protruding on the front side so you can apply an overlay?

[patrickl]

In any event, T-nuts are typically used for screws that are going to be removed or adjusted often.

Yes, but it's not always that the bolt goes in from the same side as where the nut went in.

T-Nuts are also used in situations where the nut needs to remain put and where the nut is impossible (or hard) to reach after everything is installed. For instance climbing walls are full of T-nuts so they can rearrange the "rocks". The t-nuts are obviously installed on the back of the climbing wall.

[tommy]

All original arcade cabs in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

[MaximRecoil]

In any event, T-nuts are typically used for screws that are going to be removed or adjusted often.

Yes, but it's not always that the bolt goes in from the same side as where the nut went in.

T-Nuts are also used in situations where the nut needs to remain put and where the nut is impossible (or hard) to reach after everything is installed. For instance climbing walls are full of T-nuts so they can rearrange the "rocks". The t-nuts are obviously installed on the back of the climbing wall.

I suppose it is a matter of perspective with regard to what is the normal or usual method of using a T-nut. I'm most familiar with them from speaker enclosure building, and they are always mounted on the same side as the screw in that context.

[patrickl]

All original arcade cabs with metal control panels in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

Fixed

Sure if you have a metal CP then a carriage bolt makes sense. That's where they actually work. On a wooden CP there is no need for a carriage bolt.

[MaximRecoil]

All original arcade cabs with metal control panels in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

Fixed

Sure if you have a metal CP then a carriage bolt makes sense. That's where they actually work. On a wooden CP there is no need for a carriage bolt.

Nintendo used plenty of carriage bolts on their wooden CP's, but not for mounting the joystick.

Edit: And not all metal CP's used carriage bolts. Ikari Warriors comes to mind.

[AE35]

I like them to be visible....



Nicholas

[koolmoecraig]

All original arcade cabs in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

Wrong.

Q*bert didn't.  Only to hold the panel down. Not on the joystick.  It has bolts welded to the CP.

[patrickl]

and shockingly the dust washer is under the CP too 

[tommy]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

[CheffoJeffo]

MOST times they used bolts. 

While I don't mind carriage bolts, ridiculous statements like "ALL" or "MOST" didn't use carriage bolts are pretty much nothing but shooting your mouth off, unless you have a gameroom that would make Peter Hirschberg jealous ...

Many games did and many games didn't.

[tommy]

Damn swami is always following me around the board. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Damn swami is always following me around the board. 

I'm always stalking you and genesim ... waiting for you guys to post something opinionated and stupid ... 

 

[tommy]

Damn swami is always following me around the board. 

I'm always stalking you and genesim ... waiting for you guys to post something opinionated and stupid ... 

 

Keep looking then, it won't be too much more longer for the opinionated versions. How hard is it to run around second guessing people, not very hard. Try to post something on your own that does not involve others thoughts. 

Who are you? Some kind of all knowing Jesus troll?

[CheffoJeffo]

Keep looking then, it won't be too much more longer for the opinionated versions. How hard is it to run around second guessing people, not very hard. Try to post something on your own that does not involve others thoughts. 

Let's see, I post my OPINION at 8:45 Eastern Time ... you post a TOTAL FALLACY (ALL games used carriage bolts!) at 13:25 Eastern Time (followed by another at 17:33) ... does that qualify as posting on my own ?

At the end of the day, you are right -- it is ridiculously easy to second (or even third, fourth or fifth) guess you.

Do you think that maybe you could make it tougher on me by not saying the first thing that pops into your little mind and taking a moment to spin some neurons ?

Please ?

[tommy]

I say over 60% of games used bolts on their CP. If you can challenge that then by all means, do it. Until then me saying that most games used bolts is true enough.

[CheffoJeffo]

Until then me saying that most games used bolts is true enough.

tommy says it, it must be true ... or, rather, "true enough" ... 

[tommy]

Instead of that, prove me wrong.

[RandyT]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.


RandyT

[Sir Auros]

Oooh, it may be just because I don't venture into GD, but I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

[tommy]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.


RandyT

Well, that's conclusive. I have had 5 that had bolts. That's not anymore conclusive.

[tommy]

Oooh, it may be just because I don't venture into GD, but I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

That's because the Giants have won their games and are in the superbowl.

[CheffoJeffo]

I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

As opposed to the solitary "tommy-is-right" thread ?

 

[tommy]

I may go about things in an somewhat arrogant and opinionated way, but in the end you do see I was right a lot of the time. It's not a way to get people to like you, but it is still true.

[RandyT]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.

Well, that's conclusive. I have had 5 that had bolts. That's not anymore conclusive.

I wrote it to show that the earlier example is far more than a simple exception, as you described it.

The difficulty here is that there are no more new machines fresh from the manufacturers to study.  But one could say that it is far more likely that an operator would have installed them into a machine as a repair rather than removed them from a machine that came with them installed from the factory.

So many machines have been converted and repaired (several times over) that this debate is unlikely to to find a conclusive answer.  So you have to go with what makes sense (or what you like looking at.)

RandyT

[Fozzy The Bear]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.

Well, that's conclusive. I have had 5 that had bolts. That's not anymore conclusive.

I wrote it to show that the earlier example is far more than a simple exception, as you described it.

The difficulty here is that there are no more new machines fresh from the manufacturers to study.  But one could say that it is far more likely that an operator would have installed them into a machine as a repair rather than removed them from a machine that came with them installed from the factory.

So many machines have been converted and repaired (several times over) that this debate is unlikely to to find a conclusive answer.  So you have to go with what makes sense (or what you like looking at.)

RandyT

Chaps I don't want to butt in to your obvious enjoyment of ragging on each other here and as you well know I can be as opinionated as anybody else on here..... BUT!

DOES IT REALLY MATTER!!!!

If this was something life threateningly important then I could well appreciate the argument. But you guys are arguing over whether carriage bolts should be visible or not!!!! Come On!!!! Anybody would think that world would come to an end if you did or didn't show bolts on your CP's

I dispair!! I really do.... 

As Randy Said, If you like em, put em on there..... If you don't like em, don't put em on there.

The world will still be turning tomorrow either way.

  

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[tommy]

I think you're taking this way to seriously. It's not a matter of life or death, but when people talking about something it does not mean it is a big deal or it should not be talked about. People talk about things and do not agree most times, no big deal.

So you're saying when a few people talk about something who have different views and post a few times you feel things are out of control?

[Sir Auros]

It just wouldn't be BYOAC if we didn't have a thread where a bunch of highly-opinionated nerds argue and ultimately act like ---Deutsche Frankfurters--- to those that disagree with their righteous arcade-building scripture. 

[RandyT]

It just wouldn't be BYOAC if we didn't have a thread where a bunch of highly-opinionated nerds argue and ultimately act like ---Deutsche Frankfurters--- to those that disagree with their righteous arcade-building scripture. 

I'm not a nerd, I just play one on TV 

RandyT

[tommy]

It just wouldn't be BYOAC if we didn't have a thread where a bunch of highly-opinionated nerds argue and ultimately act like ---Deutsche Frankfurters--- to those that disagree with their righteous arcade-building scripture. 

I'm not a nerd, I just play one on TV 

RandyT

That's what all the nerds say.

[Minwah]

I don't mind either way...both can look good.

I am going to have them showing (for joysticks, not trackball etc) because my machine is based on an Atari design and Atari used carriage bolts.

That said I think they had the dust washers under the CP...which I am not going to do because I think it would be difficult to get a nice enough finish on the CPO around the joystick hole, and it might be prone to lifting (no plexi).  So that is more of a practical decision rather than an aesthetic one.  Mind you as long as the washers aren't massive I don't think this looks bad anyway.

[ErikRuud]

I'll try and get this back on track, at least for a moment.

Visible bolt heads do not contribute to the playability of the games.  That pretty much means it comes done to an aesthetic choice without a really wrong or right answer.

Personally I prefer to have the CP as clean as possible.  I just think it looks better.

I don't remember how many arcade games had visible bolts when I was hanging out in arcades in the early 80's.

I do remember that Warrior had carriage bolts for the joysticks.  At the local arcade the Warrior machine was right next to a pinball game.  If you accidentally  made contact with one of the bolt heads and he chrome trim of the pinball game, you got a nasty shock!

[patrickl]

I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

As opposed to the solitary "tommy-is-right" thread ?

 

Has Tommy ever been right about anything? Or is that only in his mind?

Tommy: "All original cabinets used bolts to hold the joysticks"
BYOAC: "No Tommy you're wrong. A lot maybe but certainly not all"
Tommy: "OK then, a lot of them used bolts."
Tommy: "Ha, see I'm right"
BYOAC:  *mumble* I wish there was an ignore filter *mumble*

[shardian]

Main point, OEM metal panels is pretty much guaranteed to be bolts. OEM wood panels (Mortal kombat, etc) are mostly not bolted. Now you have to also take into consideration the fact that most machines have been converted at one point or another. For conversions, it is much easier for the op to just use bolts.

I have 4 games that all have metal panels, and they all of course have bolts.

[patrickl]

Not sure how it matters either way how many cabinets had bolts showing or not. Maybe it matters if you are creating an exact replica of a certain cabinet, but for most of us we just make something that we feel looks best.

Personally I'll just take a bit more effort to design and build the CP so the bolts and the washers are hidden. I don't like how they (bolts and dust washers) interfere with the artwork. Other people design their artwork to incorporate the bolts and or washers or they just don't care at all. Seems like finding out where people stand is what this poll is about.

[RandyT]

Main point, OEM metal panels is pretty much guaranteed to be bolts.

That's just not true.  I have a ROMSTAR Twin Cobra conversion in front of me that has a clean OEM metal panel with welded studs and a bolt-head-free top.

I don't think it's possible to make accurate generalizations regarding this, other than the bolts were definitely added by operators later in the machine's life.  How many came that way direct from the manufacturer is anyone's guess.  Maybe they started doing it when it was important to get games out the door as quickly and cheaply as possible.  I.e. toward the end of the "boom".

I was an arcade junkie at the time.  I noticed these types of things, and do specifically recall the recoil when I saw machines that had carriage bolts (for the sticks) and plastic on them.

This one really can go on forever, but I'll bounce out a guideline (take it for what you will);  If you have a clean panel will no artwork, or bland patterned generic artwork, then bolt heads won't hurt much aesthetically.  The end result will look like an operator conversion that you probably remember.  But why would one want to go through the trouble and expense of creating a fantastic looking piece of artwork for a panel, and then pepper it with bolt heads?   

RandyT

[shardian]

That's just not true.  I have a ROMSTAR Twin Cobra conversion in front of me that has a clean OEM metal panel with welded studs and a bolt-head-free top.

I didn't say all of them are. There are definitely exceptions, such as yours.

[CheffoJeffo]

Of the three classic cabs that I have with metal panels and joysticks, all have CP art, one has no exposed bolts (Tron), one has exposed bolts for the joystick (Galaga) and one has exposed bolts to attach the underlying wood panel to which the joystick is attached (PacMan). My MVS-2-25 has exposed bolts to secure the CP overlay, but metal studs to secure the joystick. None of them have dustwashers above the panel.

I also have an OEM CapCom cab with a metal panel and no bolts for joysticks (metal studs), that does have the dustwashers above the panel.

Examples and Counter-Examples for everything will abound.

At the end of the day, Fozzy's statement stands and, for a scratch-built cab, it comes down to preference. I don't particularly prefer non-exposed over exposed, although I do typically prefer smaller-head bolts, if they are to be exposed.

For those who do choose exposed bolts, pr0k's bolt head restoration tutorial may be useful.

http://www.rgvac.com/restoration.asp?projid=17

 

[RetroBorg]

I'm surprised how many Mame control panels have bolts showing, I think they look much better without the bolts, I don't even like the joystick dust washers showing but my real big hate is trackball mounting plates showing, yuk! 

[MaximRecoil]

For those who do choose exposed bolts, pr0k's bolt head restoration tutorial may be useful.

http://www.rgvac.com/restoration.asp?projid=17

 

Wow, "cold blue" for bolt heads; that's a great idea. I looked around for a long time to find some larger carriage bolts (3/8-16 x 1-1/4) with a factory black oxide finish for plugging security bar holes. I finally did find some made by Williams here (link) that worked perfectly, and had a nice, deep, satin black finish that you can only get from an oxide process (not from paint). A cold blue (which is really closer to black than blue) solution like is used for touching up gun finishes would be the same idea as that though.

[Crowquill]

It depends on what you're going for when building your cab. If you're wanting to build a shiny, clean, perfectly finished cabinet with frankenpanel then use t-nuts under the artwork and have the whole thing look clean and uncluttered.

OTOH, my MAME upright is an old cab which hadn't been modified from it's original state. I wanted to recreate the cabinets that I played at our local laundromat in the late 80's. My ultimate goal was to make it look like a well-done conversion. I also wanted a metal control panel and the bolts that came with it to recreate the experience of those cabs. Feeling the cold metal through a textured overlay was part of the experience for me.

I actually had a really hard time finding carriage bolts locally that were smaller than 1/4". Finally found that Ace Hardware carries an odd size that's the next size down. The smaller heads are definitely better.

And just in case there was anyone who was starting to be convinced that ALL wooden panels didn't have exposed bolts:

[MaximRecoil]

And just in case there was anyone who was starting to be convinced that ALL wooden panels didn't have exposed bolts:

I believe that Gauntlet had a wooden CP with exposed carriage bolts too (correct me if I'm wrong).

[RandyT]

I believe that Gauntlet had a wooden CP with exposed carriage bolts too (correct me if I'm wrong).

One small benefit of exposed bolt heads on a 4-player panel is an immediate indicator as to whether the sticks are mounted square or at some other angle to the screen.

That being said, Gauntlet Legends does not have exposed heads.  No idea about the earlier Gauntlet cab.

RandyT

[Crowquill]

That being said, Gauntlet Legends does not have exposed heads.  No idea about the earlier Gauntlet cab.

It seems Gauntlet 1 & Gauntlet 2 both had exposed bolts.

I was just trying to make a point that it varies from company to company and sometimes from game-to-game. Atari never seemed to think twice about having exposed bolts. Even years after Gauntlet, Pit-Fighter had exposed bolts.

There are metal panels with welded studs on the underside. There are also metal panels with recessed areas for the bolt-heads that would be covered by artwork. As mentioned before, I'm amused by my Neo-Geo cabinet that has welded studs for the joysticks but exposed bolts to hold on the super-thin plexi overlay. All of this is on an aluminum panel.

I don't know if I'd classify them as either tacky or tasteful but they're definitely authentic.

[patrickl]

I don't know if I'd classify them as either tacky or tasteful but they're definitely authentic.

Yet the poll question is if they are tacky or tasteful. Not if they are authentic.

[TOK]

Carriage bolts are fine. Cigarette burns, a few scratches, crudely misspelled curses in the high score list are great too. Thats how it was, and still part of the appeal to me.

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

See, that's another thing.  I was intending on simply painting and finishing my CPs, not necessarily adding an overlay, then lexan (i would off myself working with any more of that stuff than I have to).  Given that, I'm hesitant to do something like countersink a bolt, fill the recess with putty or what have you, sand that flush, paint and finish...then, UH OH, something happens, and I gotta take the joystick out..


I think for the purposes (and i suppose limitations) of my project, I'd be better off just "biting the bolt." 

[RandyT]

Here's another interesting possibility;

Different people hold the stick differently while playing.  Many, like myself, will rest their hand on the panel and control the stick with with their fingers, while others will hold the grip like a gear shift and their hands will never come into contact with the panel.  This may also have something to do with the preferences of individuals.

I cut my gaming teeth on early games like Galaxian, which didn't have the bolts and also had a very short joystick shaft.  So I got used to them not being there and resting my hand on the panel.  When I later went to other games that had them, I found the lumps of cold metal on the side of my hand to be a distraction.  If I hadn't already become accustomed to holding a stick a certain way on a smooth panel, I would probably not be so spoiled. 

RandyT

[patrickl]

Given that, I'm hesitant to do something like countersink a bolt, fill the recess with putty or what have you, sand that flush, paint and finish...then, UH OH, something happens, and I gotta take the joystick out..

Well you can take the joystick out just fine when you countersink the t-nut. Why wouldn;t that be possible? There is really no difference between using countersunk t-nuts or carriage bolts. Apart from the fact that you have a clean CP when you use countersunk t-nuts and will have bolts showing when you use carriage bolts.

Look at the picture in this post

It's only a problem when you mount the sticks from the top with flat head screws and then cover the whole stick with putty. I saw that suggested in another thread and indeed that's a method you should not be using if you want to be able to remove/service the parts.

[TheShanMan]

I have a metal cp and went to home depot and lowes yesterday looking for the best solution. "Threaded posts" seemed best to me. They are kind of like the elevator bolts, but much smaller than the elevator posts I saw there. Only problem is I have to get spacers to make this work because they're so long, yet the cp + joystick only totals a little over 1/4" thick.

These are nice because unlike carriage bolts, they are so flat. I might have to try some of that perma-blue to get them to look black. I was thinking that these might be a temporary solution and that I'd have to go online to find some less common black ones.

These came from lowes, btw.

I'd be interested in other ideas people have come up with for metal cp's.

[rackoon]

I read most of this thread and didn't see any options for metal control panels besides welding. Any one try epoxy or JB Weld?

Oh and by the way I like cigarette burns in my CP and suggestive remarks on the high score screen as well. Heck, I even like the smell of warm electronics from new machines.

[Avrus]

Lol, I had 3 people on Sunday ask if we were going to put cigarette burns into my CP to make it more realistic.

[Havok]

Carriage bolts are DEAD SEXY!

 

And, not that it will be a problem if you are building now, but every older cab I have gotten my hands on with t-nuts, the bolts freeze up, and when trying to take the bolts out end up spinning the t-nut around, and damaging the wood...

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Given that, I'm hesitant to do something like countersink a bolt, fill the recess with putty or what have you, sand that flush, paint and finish...then, UH OH, something happens, and I gotta take the joystick out..

Well you can take the joystick out just fine when you countersink the t-nut. Why wouldn;t that be possible? There is really no difference between using countersunk t-nuts or carriage bolts. Apart from the fact that you have a clean CP when you use countersunk t-nuts and will have bolts showing when you use carriage bolts.

Look at the picture in this post

It's only a problem when you mount the sticks from the top with flat head screws and then cover the whole stick with putty. I saw that suggested in another thread and indeed that's a method you should not be using if you want to be able to remove/service the parts.

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

[MaximRecoil]

Whether certain individuals consider exposed carriage bolts to be "tacky" or "tasteful" is irrelevant in light of the fact that most manufacturers used them at one time or another. The manufacturers collectively defined these machines which brought us to this point in the first place. If they'd never existed, neither would BYOAC. What the manufacturers did, particularly when it was a widespread practice, trumps my or your opinion regarding aesthetics.

You might as well ask if T-molding is "tacky or tasteful". Now a builder of fine furniture and cabinetry who perhaps uses exotic hardwoods would no doubt scoff at the idea of T-molding, which is best known for its use in cheap woodgrain melamine-covered particle board tables with fold-out tubular steel legs.

You need to put things in context. How can something that was so widespread on real machines, including ones from the "classic era", be considered "tacky" without considering pretty much everything else common to those same machines (e.g. T-molding or cartoonish stickers plastered everywhere or low-rent particle board/plywood/MDF construction, etc.) to be equally "tacky"?

[RandyT]

You need to put things in context. How can something that was so widespread on real machines, including ones from the "classic era", be considered "tacky" without considering pretty much everything else common to those same machines (e.g. T-molding or cartoonish stickers plastered everywhere or low-rent particle board/plywood/MDF construction, etc.) to be equally "tacky"?

Meh.  For every machine you find that was put out with carriage bolts visible, you can find one where the manufacturers went the extra mile and hid them.  They both existed in the wild, and one could certainly consider them "tacky" or "uncomfortable", as this is a strict matter of taste.

It's no different than looking at a particular cab design and finding it ugly.   Just because a real machine was built using it, it doesn't change one's opinion of it's aesthetic quality.

RandyT

[patrickl]

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

You are not even going to paint it?

But yeah, if you don't have any artwork it doesn't matter that much if you have bolt heads showing or not.

If you think about adding artwork later then the bolt heads might "disrupt" the artwork though.

[MaximRecoil]

Meh.  For every machine you find that was put out with carriage bolts visible, you can find one where the manufacturers went the extra mile and hid them.

"Went the extra mile"? According to whom? Do you know exactly what their reasoning was in every case? If not, then your characterization of hiding the bolts as "[going] the extra mile" is unfounded. Perhaps they wanted everything to be easily serviceable. What happens when you strip a hidden T-nut; or it seizes up?

They both existed in the wild, and one could certainly consider them "tacky" or "uncomfortable", as this is a strict matter of taste.

It is a laughable concept for someone to consider anything commonly done on original arcade machines to be "tacky", when the entire machines are about as "tacky" as you can get from the persective of most anyone who actually cares if something is "tacky" or not. Particle board? T-molding? Plexiglass? Cartoonish stickers? LOL. Not exactly upper crust stuff for home furnishings here.

It's no different than looking at a particular cab design and finding it ugly.

Yes, it is different; unless you are talking about a particular cabinet design that was widely used by most manufacturers. The closest example of that would probably be a typical Dynamo cabinet. If someone finds a Dynamo cabinet ugly (which was used by various manufacturers and is also reminiscent of classic Williams and Atari cabinet designs, among others), then I'd say they may be in the wrong hobby.

[patrickl]

I don't see what the big debate is. Some people consider them tacky. Even if they are authentic. So?

[RandyT]

"Went the extra mile"? According to whom? Do you know exactly what their reasoning was in every case? If not, then your characterization of hiding the bolts as "[going] the extra mile" is unfounded. Perhaps they wanted everything to be easily serviceable. What happens when you strip a hidden T-nut; or it seizes up?

If not for reasons of aesthetics, please tell me what the manufacturers had in mind when they paid more and further complicated the manufacturing process to have weld studs or threaded inserts installed.  And operators would indeed repair those units with carriage bolts because aesthetics were way below expedience on the priority list.

Yes, it is different; unless you are talking about a particular cabinet design that was widely used by most manufacturers. The closest example of that would probably be a typical Dynamo cabinet. If someone finds a Dynamo cabinet ugly (which was used by various manufacturers and is also reminiscent of classic Williams and Atari cabinet designs, among others), then I'd say they may be in the wrong hobby.

Wow.  I made a general statement about ugly cabinet design, and you went all specific on me.  I guess there's one that sticks in your craw as well, thus proving my point.

RandyT

[MaximRecoil]

I don't see what the big debate is. Some people consider them tacky. Even if they are authentic. So?

Because considering a common feature of arcade machines to be "tacky" while not considering the rest of it to be "tacky" is laughably ironic.

Visible carriage bolts are "tacky" but the DEEEEluxe particle board, T-molding, and cartoonish vinyl stickers = the height of style and good taste (lol).

[patrickl]

I don't see what the big debate is. Some people consider them tacky. Even if they are authentic. So?

Because considering a common feature of arcade machines to be "tacky" while not considering the rest of it to be "tacky" is laughably ironic.

So?

Bad paint jobs, "broken" joysticks, sticky buttons, cigarette burns, peeled off CP art and what not where "authentic" too.

There is tacky as in style or as in poor finish. Some people who built their cabs now (and then) think bolt heads are poor finishing. Indeed we often use better wood now too.

I really don't see what any fault that poorly built machines might have had in the eighties has anything to do with what we built now.

[MaximRecoil]

If not for reasons of aesthetics, please tell me what the manufacturers had in mind when they paid more and further complicated the manufacturing process to have weld nuts or threaded inserts installed.  And operators would indeed repair those units with carriage bolts because aesthetics were way below expedience on the priority list.

I don't agree with your "going the extra mile" characterization if that extra mile was a mistake, or arguably a mistake. The "going the extra mile" phrase implies an improvement gained through extra effort and/or cost, and also implies that the alternative is a lazy shortcut with lower quality results. That is not necessarily the case. I would imagine that a good deal of operators complained and some manufacturers listened.  

Wow.  I made a general statement about ugly cabinet design, and you went all specific on me.  I guess there's one that sticks in your craw as well, thus proving my point.

RandyT

No, it didn't prove your point. I gave you a specific scenario to show you how your invalid analogy could be made valid. Thinking that a single cabinet design is ugly is not analogous to thinking visible carriage bolts are "tacky", because a single cabinet design is only representative of itself, while visible carriage bolts are representive of a huge amount of cabinets spanning most of the manufacturers at one time or another. So if we change your analogy to a common style of cabinet, a style that could be considered almost archetypal, then it becomes more valid.

[MaximRecoil]

So?

Bad paint jobs, "broken" joysticks, sticky buttons, cigarette burns, peeled off CP art and what not where "authentic" too.

That's not how they came from the manufacturer (unless they were defective). However, many, many cabinets came from the manufacturer with exposed carriage bolts, and in some cases, lots of them.

There is tacky as in style or as in poor finish. Some people who built their cabs now (and then) think bolt heads are poor finishing. Indeed we often use better wood now too.

I really don't see what any fault that poorly built machines might have had in the eighties has anything to do with what we built now.

T-molding could be considered "poor finishing" too. It is certainly a lazy way of finishing an edge, which is why you would never see it in high-end furniture or cabinetry.

[RandyT]

I don't agree with your "going the extra mile" characterization if that extra mile was a mistake, or arguably a mistake. The "going the extra mile" phrase implies an improvement gained through extra effort and/or cost, and also implies that the alternative is a lazy shortcut with lower quality results. That is not necessarily the case. I would imagine that a good deal of operators complained and some manufacturers listened. 

I'm going to guess your panel has carriage bolts on it   Regardless of what you wish to believe, in the English language "going the extra mile" means putting in additional effort to achieve a desired end.  As I mentioned earlier, it costs more and takes more time to hide them than to just drill some holes on the panel and push some bolts through.  They hid them and they did it intentionally at an extra cost.

And if you believe that the complaints of operators forced the manufacturers to use the bolts, then how do you explain a very recent game like Gauntlet Legends which has no exposed bolts?  Are they thumbing their noses at the operators, or did they just wish to not sully the extremely artistic presentation of the cabinet with exposed hardware?

No, it didn't prove your point. I gave you a specific scenario to show you how your invalid analogy could be made valid. Thinking that a single cabinet design is ugly is not analogous to thinking visible carriage bolts are "tacky", because a single cabinet design is only representative of itself, while visible carriage bolts are representive of a huge amount of cabinets spanning most of the manufacturers at one time or another. So if we change your analogy to a common style of cabinet, a style that could be considered almost archetypal, then it becomes more valid.

Personally, I dislike the concept of a "generic" cab in an Arcade.  You actually did bring up a good example.  When the manufacturers (and operators) no longer cared about presentation, the arcades lost something special.  Generic cabinets (usually coupled with "do-it-yourself-marquees") lowered the bar, and probably helped in some perhaps not-so-small way to hasten the decline of the industry.

But I'm seeing that you don't quite get the idea of personal preference.  It's possible for an individual to like or dislike anything for no other reason than that they do.  You seem to be putting way to much effort into justifying something so basic.  Certain manufacturers found exposed hardware offensive, while others took the more utilitarian approach.  It's prerogative, pure and simple.  They obviously preferred one way over the other, so why is it so hard for you to accept that we can behave similarly? 

T-molding could be considered "poor finishing" too. It is certainly a lazy way of finishing an edge, which is why you would never see it in high-end furniture or cabinetry.

T-molding is seen as an acceptable means of finishing man-made wood products that do not inherently have a good edge-grain.  It's used on many a commercial product.  The thin veneers used as an alternative are no better or worse.  Just a different option selected for a specific purpose.

RandyT

[patrickl]

So?

Bad paint jobs, "broken" joysticks, sticky buttons, cigarette burns, peeled off CP art and what not where "authentic" too.

That's not how they came from the manufacturer (unless they were defective). However, many, many cabinets came from the manufacturer with exposed carriage bolts, and in some cases, lots of them.

The finishing and wood on the cabs coming straight out the factory was not furniture grade. We make cabs better now. Better paint, better wood, better joysticks, better artwork, better designed cabs and less showing bolt heads. We take pride in our built and built what we feel looks nice. Maintaining the style of the originals, but not the poor finishing.

I really don't see what the fact that some original cabs had bolts showing has anything to do with if we want to show them now. Some cabs did show them and some not. So you can make both arguments from that. It's completely useless.

Unless you want to make an exact replica of a specific cab there is no need to show bolt heads in order to be "authentic".

[MaximRecoil]

I'm going to guess your panel has carriage bolts on it

I own three original arcade machines and nothing else (four if you count the gutted machine in the shed). Two of them have visible carriage bolts and one of them does not. I didn't make the decision, the manufacturers of them did.

Regardless of what you wish to believe, in the English language "going the extra mile" means putting in additional effort to achieve a desired end.

Yes, and it also carries with it certain implications, like all words and phrases do, due to common language application. If someone puts forth extra effort but gets worse results ("worse" in regard to whatever goal is deemed most important), then people wouldn't generally say they "went the extra mile". For example, if the important goal is to remove rust, and someone stays up toiling away all night with 2000 grit sandpaper and only removes half the rust; would he be said to have "gone the extra mile" compared to someone who removed all the rust in a short time with 40 grit sandpaper?  

As I mentioned earlier, it costs more and takes more time to hide them than to just drill some holes on the panel and push some bolts through.  They hid them and they did it intentionally at an extra cost.

I didn't disagree with that. I disagree with the "extra mile" characterization of this, due to the implication of this phrase that the results were an improvement over the easier alternative.

And if you believe that the complaints of operators forced the manufacturers to use the bolts, then how do you explain a very recent game like Gauntlet Legends which has no exposed bolts?  Are they thumbing their noses at the operators, or did they just wish to not sully the extremely artistic presentation of the cabinet with exposed hardware?

You would have to ask them. I only suggested a possibility. I didn't claim to know the reasoning behind each and every case. You are the one that is implying that you know.

Personally, I dislike the concept of a "generic" cab in an Arcade.  You actually did bring up a good example.  When the manufacturers (and operators) no longer cared about presentation, the arcades lost something special.  Generic cabinets (usually coupled with "do-it-yourself-marquees") lowered the bar, and probably helped in some perhaps not-so-small way to hasten the decline of the industry.

That is something different altogether. Do you find the design of the Dynamo to be ugly based solely on the design itself (and not what the generic cabinet trend represented to the industry)? Keep in mind that a Williams Joust, Atari Centipede, Data East Karate Champ, Taito Double Dragon, etc., all follow roughly the same lines, and that general style is the first thing that pops into most people's minds when they hear "arcade machine".

But I'm seeing that you don't quite get the idea of personal preference.  It's possible for an individual to like or dislike anything for no other reason than that they do.  You seem to be putting way to much effort into justifying something so basic.  Certain manufacturers found exposed hardware offensive, while others took the more utilitarian approach.  It prerogative, pure and simple.  They obviously preferred one way over the other, so why is it so hard for you to accept that we can behave similarly?

I'm simply pointing out the irony, given the context.  

T-molding is seen as an acceptable means of finishing man-made wood products that do not inherently have a good edge-grain.  It's used on many a commercial product.  The thin veneers used as an alternative are no better or worse.  Just a different option selected for a specific purpose.

It is chosen primarily for its durability and ease of replacement (sound familiar?). This is a very important consideration for products intended for a commercial environment. In any event, neither the T-molding nor the cheap man-made wood-stuff material that it is attached to rank very high for "style" or "good taste" (which is the oppostite of "tacky").

It is kind of like worrying that your leopard-print couch looks "tacky" next to your harvest gold shag carpeting.

[MaximRecoil]

The finishing and wood on the cabs coming straight out the factory was not furniture grade. We make cabs better now. Better paint, better wood, better joysticks, better artwork, better designed cabs and less showing bolt heads. We take pride in our built and built what we feel looks nice. Maintaining the style of the originals, but not the poor finishing.

Better paint: Do you think you can best the factory finish on a Nintendo cabinet for example? This is a heat cured epoxy finish that some people mistake for a laminate.

Better wood: How so? Most people use MDF. Plenty of original cabinets also use MDF. Another option is plywood. Again, lots of original cabinets also used plywood. In the case of original cabinets made from particle board, then either MDF or plywood is indeed a better choice IMO.

Better joysticks: Which joysticks are you referring to exactly?

Better artwork: This is a highly subjective claim if you are referring to the art content itself. However, most BYOAC cabinets do not use screen printed artwork while nearly all original cabinets did. 

Better designed cabs: "Better designed" how? Perhaps better designed to play hundreds of games, but that is comparing apples to oranges so to speak.

I really don't see what the fact that some original cabs had bolts showing has anything to do with if we want to show them now. Some cabs did show them and some not. So you can make both arguments from that. It's completely useless.

Unless you want to make an exact replica of a specific cab there is no need to show bolt heads in order to be "authentic".

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I never claimed that someone should have exposed bolt heads in order to be authentic (especially since not all cabinets had them). I am saying that the claim that exposed bolt heads are "tacky" is a ridiculous piece of irony, given the context.

I don't care how people decide to build their own cabinets—with or without visible carriage bolts, I couldn't care less. It is the claim that one or the other is "tacky" that is ridiculous.

[RandyT]

I own three original arcade machines and nothing else (four if you count the gutted machine in the shed). Two of them have visible carriage bolts and one of them does not. I didn't make the decision, the manufacturers of them did.

What do you suppose the decision was based upon?

I didn't disagree with that. I disagree with the "extra mile" characterization of this, due to the implication of this phrase that the results were an improvement over the easier alternative.

They must have thought it was, or they wouldn't have done it.  I'm sure they believed they were "going the extra mile".

I didn't claim to know the reasoning behind each and every case. You are the one that is implying that you know.

All I know is common sense and having designed commercial kiosks for a few years.  One basic rule is to hide hardware if possible, and it usually is.

That is something different altogether. Do you find the design of the Dynamo to be ugly based solely on the design itself (and not what the generic cabinet trend represented to the industry)? Keep in mind that a Williams Joust, Atari Centipede, Data East Karate Champ, Taito Double Dragon, etc., all follow roughly the same lines, and that general style is the first thing that pops into most people's minds when they hear "arcade machine".

No, it is not.  I can honestly say that I do not prefer generic cabinets in an arcade setting, and that really all the justification that is necessary.  It is my preference.  See how that works?  But I will humor you and say that each of the games that you mentioned own that similar design.  They had specific artwork that connected the game to the cabinet design and so-on.  The generic cabs are just generic cabs with no personality, merely a similar shape.

It is chosen primarily for its durability and ease of replacement (sound familiar?). This is a very important consideration for products intended for a commercial environment. In any event, neither the T-molding nor the cheap man-made wood-stuff material that it is attached to rank very high for "style" or "good taste" (which is the oppostite of "tacky").

Again, it is a subjective terminology.  Retro modern is pretty tacky by todays standards, but was considered "classy" in the 70's.  And the T-molding is as much about defining the look and feel of the game as it is to protect / hide the edges.  Unless you would now like to take the position that a Pac-Man cabinet would look the same with green T-molding on it.

RandyT

[MaximRecoil]

What do you suppose the decision was based upon?

Who knows? Different companies tend to have different priorities and ideas.

They must have thought it was, or they wouldn't have done it.  I'm sure they believed they were "going the extra mile".

Yes, they probably did believe they were "going the extra mile". I wonder if operators believed they "went the extra mile" as a T-nut started spinning in place when they tried to remove the bolt, due to gunked and rusted threads from several months or years' worth of soda spills.

All I know is common sense and having designed commercial kiosks for a few years.  One basic rule is to hide hardware if possible, and it usually is.

All hardware isn't necessarily given equal considerations. Hardware that mounts a joystick, which needs routine maintenance, and is subject to the likes of soda spills, may very well have different considerations (beyond subjective aesthetics) than hardware that will rarely, if ever, have to be removed.

No, it is not.

Yes it is a different thing altogether. We were talking about ugly cabinet designs, and you went off on something different.

I can honestly say that I do not prefer generic cabinets in an arcade setting, and that really all the justification that is necessary.  It is my preference.  See how that works?  But I will humor you and say that each of the games that you mentioned own that similar design.  They had specific artwork that connected the game to the cabinet design and so-on.  The generic cabs are just generic cabs with no personality, merely a similar shape.

So apparently you don't find that general shape to be ugly.

Again, it is a subjective terminology.  Retro modern is pretty tacky by todays standards, but was considered "classy" in the 70's.  And the T-molding is as much about defining the look and feel of the game as it is to protect / hide the edges.  Unless you would now like to take the position that a Pac-Man cabinet would look the same with green T-molding on it.

Look and feel was a secondary consideration. Once you have already decided to use T-molding (and pretty much all of them did make that very decision) because it is a cheap and durable method of finishing and protecting the edges of the cheap wood, then it is a small matter to specify a color of the T-molding when you order it.

[patrickl]

I guess you stated "tasteful"  in the poll. That's about all we need to know really. There is no right or wrong when the question is a matter of taste.

[MaximRecoil]

I guess you stated "tasteful"  in the poll.

"Tasteful" wasn't an option in the poll.

There is no right or wrong when the question is a matter of taste.

No, but there is irony.

[FrizzleFried]

Why is it that Maximum is the only guy i've EVER SEEN that thinks Japanese Nintendo cabinets are covered in heat cured epoxy?   It's FORMICA!  I know...I've removed some!  Sheesh...

[MaximRecoil]

Why is it that Maximum is the only guy i've EVER SEEN that thinks Japanese Nintendo cabinets are covered in heat cured epoxy?

Prok thinks so too, along with me and whoever "Maximum" is (lol).

Original Galagas were built with the
same coated wood process that Nintendo cabs were (the japanese version has a
thicker coating though).  These were an epoxy based finish that is typically
sprayed by machine and cured with heat

Link

It's FORMICA!  I know...I've removed some!  Sheesh...

Like hell it is. You realize that "Formica" is a brand of HPL right? And it is about 1/16" thick, or half that for "vertical grade". You also can't see traces of the grain of the plywood through HPL, while you can on Japanese plywood Nintendo cabinets.

If you removed some HPL from a Nintendo cabinet then it was an anomaly (maybe operator applied or Nintendo used different finishes at different times), because neither my Punch-Out nor my Popeye have laminate of any sort. It is a coating that is hard enough to chip/flake (meaning not Melamine/LPL) and as thin as a paint job (meaning not Formica/HPL) as well as being able to see traces of the plywood grain beneath it (again, obviously not HPL).

Edit: This is from the Popeye in the shed:



It is paper thin and note the impressions in it from where it formed to the grain of the plywood. It is flexible to a point, but if you start to fold it, it snaps cleanly in two. I wonder where I can get a lab analysis done of it, lol.

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

You are not even going to paint it?

Oh yeah, I'm gonna paint it.  I'll probably give it a thorough painting, sanding, painting, etc...make it nice and smooth and less "wood like".



I should also add, that I had NO idea my poll would stir up such debate!  I was just looking for second opinions, haha. 

[Avrus]

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

You are not even going to paint it?

Oh yeah, I'm gonna paint it.  I'll probably give it a thorough painting, sanding, painting, etc...make it nice and smooth and less "wood like".



I should also add, that I had NO idea my poll would stir up such debate!  I was just looking for second opinions, haha. 

If it's arcade related ... it's going to stir a debate.