Carriage Bolts On your CP: Tacky, or Tasteful?

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Just curious.  I'm considering just letting them shine on the CP.  I'm wanting to drill as little as possible...

[DrumAnBass]

Use T-Nuts under plexi or lexan. Much nicer not to see them.

[Afterburner]

Tacky.

T-nuts or use counter-sunk bolts.

I used countersunk bolts on all my controls.  Then overlaid the artwork to hide them.  Looks very clean.

[Avrus]

I recently looked at some older style cabinets, and they all had carriage bolts showing over the CPO.

[Franco B]

I used t-nuts on my first cab and they did the job fine.

I'm going to go for sunken carriage bolts on my cocktail purely because I'm going to CNC drill all the holes in CPs and counter bore the bolt holes from the top and fill the holes and then bolt the joys from behind. This should make it much stronger

T nuts will do the job fine though if you secure the t nuts properly. Drill the relief hole very slightly smaller than the diameter of the t nut. You will also want to use an adhesive to give the nuts some extra strength. 

If you have the ability to use sunken carriage bolts I would go for that option though, you can easily drill the holes and then route the 'counter bore' before filling the holes.

Thats if you want to hide the bolts that is, you can leave them proud but they look ugly IMO.

[2600]

I recently looked at some older style cabinets, and they all had carriage bolts showing over the CPO.

They most likely had metal Control Panels.  Try looking at control panels made of wood like Robotron or Donkey Kong.

[brock.sampson]

Not of a fan of bolts or exposed trackball plates.  I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.  I'm going to try to get some elevator bolts for the cabinet I'm building right now.   Should not have to recess them nearly as far as a standard carriage bolt.

[Sir Auros]

I remember almost every arcade game that got a lot of playtime from me having the carriage bolts on the outside, so I feel like they should be out there. I feel the same about joystick dust washers.

[patrickl]

I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.

How is a t-nut going to work itself loose over time?

[Franco B]

I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.

How is a t-nut going to work itself loose over time?

They can become loose quite easily if you don't install them properly.  If the hole is too big and you don't use glue etc, all that is holding them in is the prongs which don't take much effort to work loose.

[patrickl]

I'm concerned t-nuts would work themselves loose over time.

How is a t-nut going to work itself loose over time?

They can become loose quite easily if you don't install them properly.  If the hole is too big and you don't use glue etc, all that is holding them in is the prongs which don't take much effort to work loose.

Glue on a t-nut?

You hammer a T-Nut in and the only way it will works itself loose is if you forget to tighten the bolt on the bottom of the panel.

Whatever issue you might have with improperly installing a t-nut, a t-nut is structurally a lot stronger than a carriage bolt.

[Franco B]

Are we on about installing them from the top or bottom of the CP here?

[MaximRecoil]

You hammer a T-Nut in and the only way it will works itself loose is if you forget to tighten the bolt on the bottom of the panel.

Say what? A T-nut can come out the same way it went in, regardless of the tightness of the bolt. The T-nut grips the wood—the bolt screwed into it is irrelevant in regard to whether or not it will work loose.

Whatever issue you might have with improperly installing a t-nut, a t-nut is structurally a lot stronger than a carriage bolt.

Again, say what? You have that backwards. You could pry a T-nut mounted joystick off with a flat-bladed screw driver. All that is holding it there is the friction of the short T-nut prongs in the wood, which is about the same idea as mounting the joystick with 12 short nails (4 T-nuts, 3 short prongs each):



I'd like to see someone pry off a joystick mounted with carriage bolts. You'd have to either break the bolts themselves, break the nuts, or somehow pull the bolts completely through the wood (not very easy when the bolt head is a good deal larger than the hole in the wood that the bolt shafts go through).

Bolts are used for heavy duty structural applications where T-nuts wouldn't even hold for a moment.

[patrickl]

You hammer a T-Nut in and the only way it will works itself loose is if you forget to tighten the bolt on the bottom of the panel.

Say what? A T-nut can come out the same way it went in, regardless of the tightness of the bolt. The T-nut grips the wood—the bolt screwed into it is irrelevant in regard to whether or not it will work loose.

Whatever issue you might have with improperly installing a t-nut, a t-nut is structurally a lot stronger than a carriage bolt.

Again, say what? You have that backwards. You could pry a T-nut mounted joystick off with a flat-bladed screw driver. All that is holding it there is the friction of the short T-nut prongs in the wood, which is about the same idea as mounting the joystick with 12 short nails (4 T-nuts, 3 short prongs each):

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

[patrickl]

Are we on about installing them from the top or bottom of the CP here?

Doesn't matter. The bolt goes on one side and the nut on the other side. For this application it doesn't make much sense to put a t-nut on bottom though.

[MaximRecoil]

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

That's not how T-nuts are normally used but that method would be as strong (or nearly as strong) as mounting with carriage bolts. I say "nearly as strong" because a regular nut is stronger than a T-nut, but it wouldn't make much of a difference for mounting a joystick—both would be more than up to the task.

[patrickl]

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

That's not how T-nuts are normally used but that method would be as strong (or nearly as strong) as mounting with carriage bolts. I say "nearly as strong" because a regular nut is stronger than a T-nut, but it wouldn't make much of a difference for mounting a joystick—both would be more than up to the task.

Well that's how a t-nut is used in mounting a joystick to a control panel (the subject of the thread).

The difference and the reason for using the t-nut in this case, is that a t-nut can be installed without a visible nut or bolt head on the top side of the CP.

[MaximRecoil]

Well that's how a t-nut is used in mounting a joystick to a control panel (the subject of the thread).

The difference and the reason for using the t-nut in this case, is that a t-nut can be installed without a visible nut or bolt head on the top side of the CP.

Yeah, it makes sense. I never thought of adapting T-nuts for a novel application like that because they already make elevator bolts which will accomplish the same thing (and be a bit stronger in the process), particularly fanged elevator bolts if that sort of extra stabilization is important to you:

[Fozzy The Bear]

It all depends on what you're building and what you like personally...... I don't mind them, many original control panels had them so they're kind of authentic. But that said they're not always aesthetically pleasing so the answer is to go with what you like the look of. If they fit the theme of your cab then have them showing.

What I mean to say, is that at the end of the day it's about personal choice and what looks right to you.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[CheffoJeffo]

What Fozzy said, although  for all of those clowns who would call Galaga (or PacMan or Donkey Kong, etc.) tacky ...

 

[Avrus]

I remember almost every arcade game that got a lot of playtime from me having the carriage bolts on the outside, so I feel like they should be out there. I feel the same about joystick dust washers.

That was my feeling as well.  I mean, going through the trouble of building an arcade cabinet and them removing the carriage bolts? For me that would have been like not having a coin door.

That being said, if it made my cabinet look cooler I'm sure I would have considered it.   

[RandyT]

My opinion is that bolt heads were seen on panels only for purposes of cost and expedience.  There is only one circumstance in which the bolt heads serve a valuable purpose, and that is additional binding points to hold down a clear plexi or lexan overlay.  While that has mechanical benefit, it certainly doesn't do much for aesthetics.

With a few exceptions, carriage bolts were added by operators, rather than installed as original equipment by the manufacturer.  More likely than not, they were installed as a repair when the OEM mounting methods gave up the fight after a few years of abuse. 

As Fozzy stated, it's mostly about what you like, what you remember, and what you are trying to recreate.  Most manufacturers (then and now) try their best to hide hardware when possible, as the result is generally considered more pleasing to the eye unless the hardware is decorative or part of a specific theme.  But it is a matter of taste, pure and simple.

For the most part, you should never have to worry about your sticks breaking free if you use the right hardware.  You (hopefully) won't be leaving your machine in an unattended 24hr laundr-o-mat to be hammered on by drunken thugs, so the added durability of carriage bolts is probably not a concern here.

RandyT

[rovingmind]

You don't understand how a t-nut works then. The bolt goes on on the OTHER side of the wood from the t-nut. The bolt pulls the t-nut into the wood.

A t-nut with bolt is basically the same as a carriage bolt with a nut. The difference is that in the case of the t-nut, the nut is actually stabilized by the nails on the nut.

That's not how T-nuts are normally used but that method would be as strong (or nearly as strong) as mounting with carriage bolts.

Actually that IS the way they are supposed to be used.  If the joysticks were undermounted the t-nut would go on top with the overlay covering them.  If the joysticks were topmounted, the tnut "should" go on the bottom with the stick and bolt heads recessed enough for the overlay to cover them. 

T-nuts were designed to work as blind nuts in wood.  After they get put in, the bolt puts pressure on it to pull it into the wood fibers.  Initially the prongs are there to take the place of having to use a wrench on the back.  They usually fail through poor initial installation or overtightening which causes the teeth to literaly cut a groove letting it spin, hence the use of glue to assist its holding power.  Once it starts spinning you cant get it to a proper torque to hold and the bolt can work loose like any other undertightened bolt.  If a joystick is top-mounted and the t-nut is on the topside of the panel also, thats just poor craftsmanship, or somebody in a hurry and didn't know any better.   If a cabinet manufacturer did this they might have been expecting the plexi to assist in holding it down. 

They do have some that CAN be used that way but they have a larger flat and nail holes to hold them to the wood.  You still have the, "screwdriver will pop them out" problem if you work at them.

edit:  i havnt dissassembled arcade cabinets, so i do not know how the manufacturers of them have used t-nuts.  I have used them in industrial uses where they have to meet their rated holding power to be ISO compliant.

[javeryh]

I've got black ones on my cocktail CPs (metal) but if I had to do it over (which I may yet do) I'd get rid of them.

[MaximRecoil]

Actually that IS the way they are supposed to be used.  If the joysticks were undermounted the t-nut would go on top with the overlay covering them.  If the joysticks were topmounted, the tnut "should" go on the bottom with the stick and bolt heads recessed enough for the overlay to cover them. 

T-nuts were designed to work as blind nuts in wood.  After they get put in, the bolt puts pressure on it to pull it into the wood fibers.  Initially the prongs are there to take the place of having to use a wrench on the back.  They usually fail through poor initial installation or overtightening which causes the teeth to literaly cut a groove letting it spin, hence the use of glue to assist its holding power.  Once it starts spinning you cant get it to a proper torque to hold and the bolt can work loose like any other undertightened bolt.  If a joystick is top-mounted and the t-nut is on the topside of the panel also, thats just poor craftsmanship, or somebody in a hurry and didn't know any better.   If a cabinet manufacturer did this they might have been expecting the plexi to assist in holding it down. 

They do have some that CAN be used that way but they have a larger flat and nail holes to hold them to the wood.  You still have the, "screwdriver will pop them out" problem if you work at them.

edit:  i havnt dissassembled arcade cabinets, so i do not know how the manufacturers of them have used t-nuts.  I have used them in industrial uses where they have to meet their rated holding power to be ISO compliant.

Have you ever seen the T-nuts on the bottom of an arcade machine for the leg levelers? How about speaker enclosures (T-nuts are often used for mounting the speakers—you don't want to go all the way through because that compromises the seal of the basket to the baffle).

In any event, T-nuts are typically used for screws that are going to be removed or adjusted often. They provide metal threads that don't strip as easily as wood, and that is their primary purpose. If someone needs a lot of holding power/clamping force, they use hex nuts or something along those lines (note how much burlier a hex nut is than a T-nut). Also keep in mind that the back side isn't always accessible in applications that call for T-nuts—and in the cases where the back side is accessible, most people would just opt for a conventional nut and bolt arrangement, if they needed a lot of strength.

The situation with an arcade control panel is not a common one. How many other applications can you think of where you need to bolt from the back side and have nothing protruding on the front side so you can apply an overlay?

[patrickl]

In any event, T-nuts are typically used for screws that are going to be removed or adjusted often.

Yes, but it's not always that the bolt goes in from the same side as where the nut went in.

T-Nuts are also used in situations where the nut needs to remain put and where the nut is impossible (or hard) to reach after everything is installed. For instance climbing walls are full of T-nuts so they can rearrange the "rocks". The t-nuts are obviously installed on the back of the climbing wall.

[tommy]

All original arcade cabs in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

[MaximRecoil]

In any event, T-nuts are typically used for screws that are going to be removed or adjusted often.

Yes, but it's not always that the bolt goes in from the same side as where the nut went in.

T-Nuts are also used in situations where the nut needs to remain put and where the nut is impossible (or hard) to reach after everything is installed. For instance climbing walls are full of T-nuts so they can rearrange the "rocks". The t-nuts are obviously installed on the back of the climbing wall.

I suppose it is a matter of perspective with regard to what is the normal or usual method of using a T-nut. I'm most familiar with them from speaker enclosure building, and they are always mounted on the same side as the screw in that context.

[patrickl]

All original arcade cabs with metal control panels in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

Fixed

Sure if you have a metal CP then a carriage bolt makes sense. That's where they actually work. On a wooden CP there is no need for a carriage bolt.

[MaximRecoil]

All original arcade cabs with metal control panels in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

Fixed

Sure if you have a metal CP then a carriage bolt makes sense. That's where they actually work. On a wooden CP there is no need for a carriage bolt.

Nintendo used plenty of carriage bolts on their wooden CP's, but not for mounting the joystick.

Edit: And not all metal CP's used carriage bolts. Ikari Warriors comes to mind.

[AE35]

I like them to be visible....



Nicholas

[koolmoecraig]

All original arcade cabs in the wild had carriage bolts holding joysticks down. Keep it that way.

Wrong.

Q*bert didn't.  Only to hold the panel down. Not on the joystick.  It has bolts welded to the CP.

[patrickl]

and shockingly the dust washer is under the CP too 

[tommy]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

[CheffoJeffo]

MOST times they used bolts. 

While I don't mind carriage bolts, ridiculous statements like "ALL" or "MOST" didn't use carriage bolts are pretty much nothing but shooting your mouth off, unless you have a gameroom that would make Peter Hirschberg jealous ...

Many games did and many games didn't.

[tommy]

Damn swami is always following me around the board. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Damn swami is always following me around the board. 

I'm always stalking you and genesim ... waiting for you guys to post something opinionated and stupid ... 

 

[tommy]

Damn swami is always following me around the board. 

I'm always stalking you and genesim ... waiting for you guys to post something opinionated and stupid ... 

 

Keep looking then, it won't be too much more longer for the opinionated versions. How hard is it to run around second guessing people, not very hard. Try to post something on your own that does not involve others thoughts. 

Who are you? Some kind of all knowing Jesus troll?

[CheffoJeffo]

Keep looking then, it won't be too much more longer for the opinionated versions. How hard is it to run around second guessing people, not very hard. Try to post something on your own that does not involve others thoughts. 

Let's see, I post my OPINION at 8:45 Eastern Time ... you post a TOTAL FALLACY (ALL games used carriage bolts!) at 13:25 Eastern Time (followed by another at 17:33) ... does that qualify as posting on my own ?

At the end of the day, you are right -- it is ridiculously easy to second (or even third, fourth or fifth) guess you.

Do you think that maybe you could make it tougher on me by not saying the first thing that pops into your little mind and taking a moment to spin some neurons ?

Please ?

[tommy]

I say over 60% of games used bolts on their CP. If you can challenge that then by all means, do it. Until then me saying that most games used bolts is true enough.