Carriage Bolts On your CP: Tacky, or Tasteful?

[CheffoJeffo]

Until then me saying that most games used bolts is true enough.

tommy says it, it must be true ... or, rather, "true enough" ... 

[tommy]

Instead of that, prove me wrong.

[RandyT]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.


RandyT

[Sir Auros]

Oooh, it may be just because I don't venture into GD, but I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

[tommy]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.


RandyT

Well, that's conclusive. I have had 5 that had bolts. That's not anymore conclusive.

[tommy]

Oooh, it may be just because I don't venture into GD, but I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

That's because the Giants have won their games and are in the superbowl.

[CheffoJeffo]

I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

As opposed to the solitary "tommy-is-right" thread ?

 

[tommy]

I may go about things in an somewhat arrogant and opinionated way, but in the end you do see I was right a lot of the time. It's not a way to get people to like you, but it is still true.

[RandyT]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.

Well, that's conclusive. I have had 5 that had bolts. That's not anymore conclusive.

I wrote it to show that the earlier example is far more than a simple exception, as you described it.

The difficulty here is that there are no more new machines fresh from the manufacturers to study.  But one could say that it is far more likely that an operator would have installed them into a machine as a repair rather than removed them from a machine that came with them installed from the factory.

So many machines have been converted and repaired (several times over) that this debate is unlikely to to find a conclusive answer.  So you have to go with what makes sense (or what you like looking at.)

RandyT

[Fozzy The Bear]

I forgot where I was posting and the kinds of people who are here. MOST times they used bolts. 

I can find an exception in any thing anyone says.

I have four original CP's here and none of them use carriage bolts.

Well, that's conclusive. I have had 5 that had bolts. That's not anymore conclusive.

I wrote it to show that the earlier example is far more than a simple exception, as you described it.

The difficulty here is that there are no more new machines fresh from the manufacturers to study.  But one could say that it is far more likely that an operator would have installed them into a machine as a repair rather than removed them from a machine that came with them installed from the factory.

So many machines have been converted and repaired (several times over) that this debate is unlikely to to find a conclusive answer.  So you have to go with what makes sense (or what you like looking at.)

RandyT

Chaps I don't want to butt in to your obvious enjoyment of ragging on each other here and as you well know I can be as opinionated as anybody else on here..... BUT!

DOES IT REALLY MATTER!!!!

If this was something life threateningly important then I could well appreciate the argument. But you guys are arguing over whether carriage bolts should be visible or not!!!! Come On!!!! Anybody would think that world would come to an end if you did or didn't show bolts on your CP's

I dispair!! I really do.... 

As Randy Said, If you like em, put em on there..... If you don't like em, don't put em on there.

The world will still be turning tomorrow either way.

  

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[tommy]

I think you're taking this way to seriously. It's not a matter of life or death, but when people talking about something it does not mean it is a big deal or it should not be talked about. People talk about things and do not agree most times, no big deal.

So you're saying when a few people talk about something who have different views and post a few times you feel things are out of control?

[Sir Auros]

It just wouldn't be BYOAC if we didn't have a thread where a bunch of highly-opinionated nerds argue and ultimately act like ---Deutsche Frankfurters--- to those that disagree with their righteous arcade-building scripture. 

[RandyT]

It just wouldn't be BYOAC if we didn't have a thread where a bunch of highly-opinionated nerds argue and ultimately act like ---Deutsche Frankfurters--- to those that disagree with their righteous arcade-building scripture. 

I'm not a nerd, I just play one on TV 

RandyT

[tommy]

It just wouldn't be BYOAC if we didn't have a thread where a bunch of highly-opinionated nerds argue and ultimately act like ---Deutsche Frankfurters--- to those that disagree with their righteous arcade-building scripture. 

I'm not a nerd, I just play one on TV 

RandyT

That's what all the nerds say.

[Minwah]

I don't mind either way...both can look good.

I am going to have them showing (for joysticks, not trackball etc) because my machine is based on an Atari design and Atari used carriage bolts.

That said I think they had the dust washers under the CP...which I am not going to do because I think it would be difficult to get a nice enough finish on the CPO around the joystick hole, and it might be prone to lifting (no plexi).  So that is more of a practical decision rather than an aesthetic one.  Mind you as long as the washers aren't massive I don't think this looks bad anyway.

[ErikRuud]

I'll try and get this back on track, at least for a moment.

Visible bolt heads do not contribute to the playability of the games.  That pretty much means it comes done to an aesthetic choice without a really wrong or right answer.

Personally I prefer to have the CP as clean as possible.  I just think it looks better.

I don't remember how many arcade games had visible bolts when I was hanging out in arcades in the early 80's.

I do remember that Warrior had carriage bolts for the joysticks.  At the local arcade the Warrior machine was right next to a pinball game.  If you accidentally  made contact with one of the bolt heads and he chrome trim of the pinball game, you got a nasty shock!

[patrickl]

I haven't seen a tommy-is-wrong thread in a while. 

As opposed to the solitary "tommy-is-right" thread ?

 

Has Tommy ever been right about anything? Or is that only in his mind?

Tommy: "All original cabinets used bolts to hold the joysticks"
BYOAC: "No Tommy you're wrong. A lot maybe but certainly not all"
Tommy: "OK then, a lot of them used bolts."
Tommy: "Ha, see I'm right"
BYOAC:  *mumble* I wish there was an ignore filter *mumble*

[shardian]

Main point, OEM metal panels is pretty much guaranteed to be bolts. OEM wood panels (Mortal kombat, etc) are mostly not bolted. Now you have to also take into consideration the fact that most machines have been converted at one point or another. For conversions, it is much easier for the op to just use bolts.

I have 4 games that all have metal panels, and they all of course have bolts.

[patrickl]

Not sure how it matters either way how many cabinets had bolts showing or not. Maybe it matters if you are creating an exact replica of a certain cabinet, but for most of us we just make something that we feel looks best.

Personally I'll just take a bit more effort to design and build the CP so the bolts and the washers are hidden. I don't like how they (bolts and dust washers) interfere with the artwork. Other people design their artwork to incorporate the bolts and or washers or they just don't care at all. Seems like finding out where people stand is what this poll is about.

[RandyT]

Main point, OEM metal panels is pretty much guaranteed to be bolts.

That's just not true.  I have a ROMSTAR Twin Cobra conversion in front of me that has a clean OEM metal panel with welded studs and a bolt-head-free top.

I don't think it's possible to make accurate generalizations regarding this, other than the bolts were definitely added by operators later in the machine's life.  How many came that way direct from the manufacturer is anyone's guess.  Maybe they started doing it when it was important to get games out the door as quickly and cheaply as possible.  I.e. toward the end of the "boom".

I was an arcade junkie at the time.  I noticed these types of things, and do specifically recall the recoil when I saw machines that had carriage bolts (for the sticks) and plastic on them.

This one really can go on forever, but I'll bounce out a guideline (take it for what you will);  If you have a clean panel will no artwork, or bland patterned generic artwork, then bolt heads won't hurt much aesthetically.  The end result will look like an operator conversion that you probably remember.  But why would one want to go through the trouble and expense of creating a fantastic looking piece of artwork for a panel, and then pepper it with bolt heads?   

RandyT

[shardian]

That's just not true.  I have a ROMSTAR Twin Cobra conversion in front of me that has a clean OEM metal panel with welded studs and a bolt-head-free top.

I didn't say all of them are. There are definitely exceptions, such as yours.

[CheffoJeffo]

Of the three classic cabs that I have with metal panels and joysticks, all have CP art, one has no exposed bolts (Tron), one has exposed bolts for the joystick (Galaga) and one has exposed bolts to attach the underlying wood panel to which the joystick is attached (PacMan). My MVS-2-25 has exposed bolts to secure the CP overlay, but metal studs to secure the joystick. None of them have dustwashers above the panel.

I also have an OEM CapCom cab with a metal panel and no bolts for joysticks (metal studs), that does have the dustwashers above the panel.

Examples and Counter-Examples for everything will abound.

At the end of the day, Fozzy's statement stands and, for a scratch-built cab, it comes down to preference. I don't particularly prefer non-exposed over exposed, although I do typically prefer smaller-head bolts, if they are to be exposed.

For those who do choose exposed bolts, pr0k's bolt head restoration tutorial may be useful.

http://www.rgvac.com/restoration.asp?projid=17

 

[RetroBorg]

I'm surprised how many Mame control panels have bolts showing, I think they look much better without the bolts, I don't even like the joystick dust washers showing but my real big hate is trackball mounting plates showing, yuk! 

[MaximRecoil]

For those who do choose exposed bolts, pr0k's bolt head restoration tutorial may be useful.

http://www.rgvac.com/restoration.asp?projid=17

 

Wow, "cold blue" for bolt heads; that's a great idea. I looked around for a long time to find some larger carriage bolts (3/8-16 x 1-1/4) with a factory black oxide finish for plugging security bar holes. I finally did find some made by Williams here (link) that worked perfectly, and had a nice, deep, satin black finish that you can only get from an oxide process (not from paint). A cold blue (which is really closer to black than blue) solution like is used for touching up gun finishes would be the same idea as that though.

[Crowquill]

It depends on what you're going for when building your cab. If you're wanting to build a shiny, clean, perfectly finished cabinet with frankenpanel then use t-nuts under the artwork and have the whole thing look clean and uncluttered.

OTOH, my MAME upright is an old cab which hadn't been modified from it's original state. I wanted to recreate the cabinets that I played at our local laundromat in the late 80's. My ultimate goal was to make it look like a well-done conversion. I also wanted a metal control panel and the bolts that came with it to recreate the experience of those cabs. Feeling the cold metal through a textured overlay was part of the experience for me.

I actually had a really hard time finding carriage bolts locally that were smaller than 1/4". Finally found that Ace Hardware carries an odd size that's the next size down. The smaller heads are definitely better.

And just in case there was anyone who was starting to be convinced that ALL wooden panels didn't have exposed bolts:

[MaximRecoil]

And just in case there was anyone who was starting to be convinced that ALL wooden panels didn't have exposed bolts:

I believe that Gauntlet had a wooden CP with exposed carriage bolts too (correct me if I'm wrong).

[RandyT]

I believe that Gauntlet had a wooden CP with exposed carriage bolts too (correct me if I'm wrong).

One small benefit of exposed bolt heads on a 4-player panel is an immediate indicator as to whether the sticks are mounted square or at some other angle to the screen.

That being said, Gauntlet Legends does not have exposed heads.  No idea about the earlier Gauntlet cab.

RandyT

[Crowquill]

That being said, Gauntlet Legends does not have exposed heads.  No idea about the earlier Gauntlet cab.

It seems Gauntlet 1 & Gauntlet 2 both had exposed bolts.

I was just trying to make a point that it varies from company to company and sometimes from game-to-game. Atari never seemed to think twice about having exposed bolts. Even years after Gauntlet, Pit-Fighter had exposed bolts.

There are metal panels with welded studs on the underside. There are also metal panels with recessed areas for the bolt-heads that would be covered by artwork. As mentioned before, I'm amused by my Neo-Geo cabinet that has welded studs for the joysticks but exposed bolts to hold on the super-thin plexi overlay. All of this is on an aluminum panel.

I don't know if I'd classify them as either tacky or tasteful but they're definitely authentic.

[patrickl]

I don't know if I'd classify them as either tacky or tasteful but they're definitely authentic.

Yet the poll question is if they are tacky or tasteful. Not if they are authentic.

[TOK]

Carriage bolts are fine. Cigarette burns, a few scratches, crudely misspelled curses in the high score list are great too. Thats how it was, and still part of the appeal to me.

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

See, that's another thing.  I was intending on simply painting and finishing my CPs, not necessarily adding an overlay, then lexan (i would off myself working with any more of that stuff than I have to).  Given that, I'm hesitant to do something like countersink a bolt, fill the recess with putty or what have you, sand that flush, paint and finish...then, UH OH, something happens, and I gotta take the joystick out..


I think for the purposes (and i suppose limitations) of my project, I'd be better off just "biting the bolt." 

[RandyT]

Here's another interesting possibility;

Different people hold the stick differently while playing.  Many, like myself, will rest their hand on the panel and control the stick with with their fingers, while others will hold the grip like a gear shift and their hands will never come into contact with the panel.  This may also have something to do with the preferences of individuals.

I cut my gaming teeth on early games like Galaxian, which didn't have the bolts and also had a very short joystick shaft.  So I got used to them not being there and resting my hand on the panel.  When I later went to other games that had them, I found the lumps of cold metal on the side of my hand to be a distraction.  If I hadn't already become accustomed to holding a stick a certain way on a smooth panel, I would probably not be so spoiled. 

RandyT

[patrickl]

Given that, I'm hesitant to do something like countersink a bolt, fill the recess with putty or what have you, sand that flush, paint and finish...then, UH OH, something happens, and I gotta take the joystick out..

Well you can take the joystick out just fine when you countersink the t-nut. Why wouldn;t that be possible? There is really no difference between using countersunk t-nuts or carriage bolts. Apart from the fact that you have a clean CP when you use countersunk t-nuts and will have bolts showing when you use carriage bolts.

Look at the picture in this post

It's only a problem when you mount the sticks from the top with flat head screws and then cover the whole stick with putty. I saw that suggested in another thread and indeed that's a method you should not be using if you want to be able to remove/service the parts.

[TheShanMan]

I have a metal cp and went to home depot and lowes yesterday looking for the best solution. "Threaded posts" seemed best to me. They are kind of like the elevator bolts, but much smaller than the elevator posts I saw there. Only problem is I have to get spacers to make this work because they're so long, yet the cp + joystick only totals a little over 1/4" thick.

These are nice because unlike carriage bolts, they are so flat. I might have to try some of that perma-blue to get them to look black. I was thinking that these might be a temporary solution and that I'd have to go online to find some less common black ones.

These came from lowes, btw.

I'd be interested in other ideas people have come up with for metal cp's.

[rackoon]

I read most of this thread and didn't see any options for metal control panels besides welding. Any one try epoxy or JB Weld?

Oh and by the way I like cigarette burns in my CP and suggestive remarks on the high score screen as well. Heck, I even like the smell of warm electronics from new machines.

[Avrus]

Lol, I had 3 people on Sunday ask if we were going to put cigarette burns into my CP to make it more realistic.

[Havok]

Carriage bolts are DEAD SEXY!

 

And, not that it will be a problem if you are building now, but every older cab I have gotten my hands on with t-nuts, the bolts freeze up, and when trying to take the bolts out end up spinning the t-nut around, and damaging the wood...

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Given that, I'm hesitant to do something like countersink a bolt, fill the recess with putty or what have you, sand that flush, paint and finish...then, UH OH, something happens, and I gotta take the joystick out..

Well you can take the joystick out just fine when you countersink the t-nut. Why wouldn;t that be possible? There is really no difference between using countersunk t-nuts or carriage bolts. Apart from the fact that you have a clean CP when you use countersunk t-nuts and will have bolts showing when you use carriage bolts.

Look at the picture in this post

It's only a problem when you mount the sticks from the top with flat head screws and then cover the whole stick with putty. I saw that suggested in another thread and indeed that's a method you should not be using if you want to be able to remove/service the parts.

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

[MaximRecoil]

Whether certain individuals consider exposed carriage bolts to be "tacky" or "tasteful" is irrelevant in light of the fact that most manufacturers used them at one time or another. The manufacturers collectively defined these machines which brought us to this point in the first place. If they'd never existed, neither would BYOAC. What the manufacturers did, particularly when it was a widespread practice, trumps my or your opinion regarding aesthetics.

You might as well ask if T-molding is "tacky or tasteful". Now a builder of fine furniture and cabinetry who perhaps uses exotic hardwoods would no doubt scoff at the idea of T-molding, which is best known for its use in cheap woodgrain melamine-covered particle board tables with fold-out tubular steel legs.

You need to put things in context. How can something that was so widespread on real machines, including ones from the "classic era", be considered "tacky" without considering pretty much everything else common to those same machines (e.g. T-molding or cartoonish stickers plastered everywhere or low-rent particle board/plywood/MDF construction, etc.) to be equally "tacky"?

[RandyT]

You need to put things in context. How can something that was so widespread on real machines, including ones from the "classic era", be considered "tacky" without considering pretty much everything else common to those same machines (e.g. T-molding or cartoonish stickers plastered everywhere or low-rent particle board/plywood/MDF construction, etc.) to be equally "tacky"?

Meh.  For every machine you find that was put out with carriage bolts visible, you can find one where the manufacturers went the extra mile and hid them.  They both existed in the wild, and one could certainly consider them "tacky" or "uncomfortable", as this is a strict matter of taste.

It's no different than looking at a particular cab design and finding it ugly.   Just because a real machine was built using it, it doesn't change one's opinion of it's aesthetic quality.

RandyT