Carriage Bolts On your CP: Tacky, or Tasteful?

[patrickl]

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

You are not even going to paint it?

But yeah, if you don't have any artwork it doesn't matter that much if you have bolt heads showing or not.

If you think about adding artwork later then the bolt heads might "disrupt" the artwork though.

[MaximRecoil]

Meh.  For every machine you find that was put out with carriage bolts visible, you can find one where the manufacturers went the extra mile and hid them.

"Went the extra mile"? According to whom? Do you know exactly what their reasoning was in every case? If not, then your characterization of hiding the bolts as "[going] the extra mile" is unfounded. Perhaps they wanted everything to be easily serviceable. What happens when you strip a hidden T-nut; or it seizes up?

They both existed in the wild, and one could certainly consider them "tacky" or "uncomfortable", as this is a strict matter of taste.

It is a laughable concept for someone to consider anything commonly done on original arcade machines to be "tacky", when the entire machines are about as "tacky" as you can get from the persective of most anyone who actually cares if something is "tacky" or not. Particle board? T-molding? Plexiglass? Cartoonish stickers? LOL. Not exactly upper crust stuff for home furnishings here.

It's no different than looking at a particular cab design and finding it ugly.

Yes, it is different; unless you are talking about a particular cabinet design that was widely used by most manufacturers. The closest example of that would probably be a typical Dynamo cabinet. If someone finds a Dynamo cabinet ugly (which was used by various manufacturers and is also reminiscent of classic Williams and Atari cabinet designs, among others), then I'd say they may be in the wrong hobby.

[patrickl]

I don't see what the big debate is. Some people consider them tacky. Even if they are authentic. So?

[RandyT]

"Went the extra mile"? According to whom? Do you know exactly what their reasoning was in every case? If not, then your characterization of hiding the bolts as "[going] the extra mile" is unfounded. Perhaps they wanted everything to be easily serviceable. What happens when you strip a hidden T-nut; or it seizes up?

If not for reasons of aesthetics, please tell me what the manufacturers had in mind when they paid more and further complicated the manufacturing process to have weld studs or threaded inserts installed.  And operators would indeed repair those units with carriage bolts because aesthetics were way below expedience on the priority list.

Yes, it is different; unless you are talking about a particular cabinet design that was widely used by most manufacturers. The closest example of that would probably be a typical Dynamo cabinet. If someone finds a Dynamo cabinet ugly (which was used by various manufacturers and is also reminiscent of classic Williams and Atari cabinet designs, among others), then I'd say they may be in the wrong hobby.

Wow.  I made a general statement about ugly cabinet design, and you went all specific on me.  I guess there's one that sticks in your craw as well, thus proving my point.

RandyT

[MaximRecoil]

I don't see what the big debate is. Some people consider them tacky. Even if they are authentic. So?

Because considering a common feature of arcade machines to be "tacky" while not considering the rest of it to be "tacky" is laughably ironic.

Visible carriage bolts are "tacky" but the DEEEEluxe particle board, T-molding, and cartoonish vinyl stickers = the height of style and good taste (lol).

[patrickl]

I don't see what the big debate is. Some people consider them tacky. Even if they are authentic. So?

Because considering a common feature of arcade machines to be "tacky" while not considering the rest of it to be "tacky" is laughably ironic.

So?

Bad paint jobs, "broken" joysticks, sticky buttons, cigarette burns, peeled off CP art and what not where "authentic" too.

There is tacky as in style or as in poor finish. Some people who built their cabs now (and then) think bolt heads are poor finishing. Indeed we often use better wood now too.

I really don't see what any fault that poorly built machines might have had in the eighties has anything to do with what we built now.

[MaximRecoil]

If not for reasons of aesthetics, please tell me what the manufacturers had in mind when they paid more and further complicated the manufacturing process to have weld nuts or threaded inserts installed.  And operators would indeed repair those units with carriage bolts because aesthetics were way below expedience on the priority list.

I don't agree with your "going the extra mile" characterization if that extra mile was a mistake, or arguably a mistake. The "going the extra mile" phrase implies an improvement gained through extra effort and/or cost, and also implies that the alternative is a lazy shortcut with lower quality results. That is not necessarily the case. I would imagine that a good deal of operators complained and some manufacturers listened.  

Wow.  I made a general statement about ugly cabinet design, and you went all specific on me.  I guess there's one that sticks in your craw as well, thus proving my point.

RandyT

No, it didn't prove your point. I gave you a specific scenario to show you how your invalid analogy could be made valid. Thinking that a single cabinet design is ugly is not analogous to thinking visible carriage bolts are "tacky", because a single cabinet design is only representative of itself, while visible carriage bolts are representive of a huge amount of cabinets spanning most of the manufacturers at one time or another. So if we change your analogy to a common style of cabinet, a style that could be considered almost archetypal, then it becomes more valid.

[MaximRecoil]

So?

Bad paint jobs, "broken" joysticks, sticky buttons, cigarette burns, peeled off CP art and what not where "authentic" too.

That's not how they came from the manufacturer (unless they were defective). However, many, many cabinets came from the manufacturer with exposed carriage bolts, and in some cases, lots of them.

There is tacky as in style or as in poor finish. Some people who built their cabs now (and then) think bolt heads are poor finishing. Indeed we often use better wood now too.

I really don't see what any fault that poorly built machines might have had in the eighties has anything to do with what we built now.

T-molding could be considered "poor finishing" too. It is certainly a lazy way of finishing an edge, which is why you would never see it in high-end furniture or cabinetry.

[RandyT]

I don't agree with your "going the extra mile" characterization if that extra mile was a mistake, or arguably a mistake. The "going the extra mile" phrase implies an improvement gained through extra effort and/or cost, and also implies that the alternative is a lazy shortcut with lower quality results. That is not necessarily the case. I would imagine that a good deal of operators complained and some manufacturers listened. 

I'm going to guess your panel has carriage bolts on it   Regardless of what you wish to believe, in the English language "going the extra mile" means putting in additional effort to achieve a desired end.  As I mentioned earlier, it costs more and takes more time to hide them than to just drill some holes on the panel and push some bolts through.  They hid them and they did it intentionally at an extra cost.

And if you believe that the complaints of operators forced the manufacturers to use the bolts, then how do you explain a very recent game like Gauntlet Legends which has no exposed bolts?  Are they thumbing their noses at the operators, or did they just wish to not sully the extremely artistic presentation of the cabinet with exposed hardware?

No, it didn't prove your point. I gave you a specific scenario to show you how your invalid analogy could be made valid. Thinking that a single cabinet design is ugly is not analogous to thinking visible carriage bolts are "tacky", because a single cabinet design is only representative of itself, while visible carriage bolts are representive of a huge amount of cabinets spanning most of the manufacturers at one time or another. So if we change your analogy to a common style of cabinet, a style that could be considered almost archetypal, then it becomes more valid.

Personally, I dislike the concept of a "generic" cab in an Arcade.  You actually did bring up a good example.  When the manufacturers (and operators) no longer cared about presentation, the arcades lost something special.  Generic cabinets (usually coupled with "do-it-yourself-marquees") lowered the bar, and probably helped in some perhaps not-so-small way to hasten the decline of the industry.

But I'm seeing that you don't quite get the idea of personal preference.  It's possible for an individual to like or dislike anything for no other reason than that they do.  You seem to be putting way to much effort into justifying something so basic.  Certain manufacturers found exposed hardware offensive, while others took the more utilitarian approach.  It's prerogative, pure and simple.  They obviously preferred one way over the other, so why is it so hard for you to accept that we can behave similarly? 

T-molding could be considered "poor finishing" too. It is certainly a lazy way of finishing an edge, which is why you would never see it in high-end furniture or cabinetry.

T-molding is seen as an acceptable means of finishing man-made wood products that do not inherently have a good edge-grain.  It's used on many a commercial product.  The thin veneers used as an alternative are no better or worse.  Just a different option selected for a specific purpose.

RandyT

[patrickl]

So?

Bad paint jobs, "broken" joysticks, sticky buttons, cigarette burns, peeled off CP art and what not where "authentic" too.

That's not how they came from the manufacturer (unless they were defective). However, many, many cabinets came from the manufacturer with exposed carriage bolts, and in some cases, lots of them.

The finishing and wood on the cabs coming straight out the factory was not furniture grade. We make cabs better now. Better paint, better wood, better joysticks, better artwork, better designed cabs and less showing bolt heads. We take pride in our built and built what we feel looks nice. Maintaining the style of the originals, but not the poor finishing.

I really don't see what the fact that some original cabs had bolts showing has anything to do with if we want to show them now. Some cabs did show them and some not. So you can make both arguments from that. It's completely useless.

Unless you want to make an exact replica of a specific cab there is no need to show bolt heads in order to be "authentic".

[MaximRecoil]

I'm going to guess your panel has carriage bolts on it

I own three original arcade machines and nothing else (four if you count the gutted machine in the shed). Two of them have visible carriage bolts and one of them does not. I didn't make the decision, the manufacturers of them did.

Regardless of what you wish to believe, in the English language "going the extra mile" means putting in additional effort to achieve a desired end.

Yes, and it also carries with it certain implications, like all words and phrases do, due to common language application. If someone puts forth extra effort but gets worse results ("worse" in regard to whatever goal is deemed most important), then people wouldn't generally say they "went the extra mile". For example, if the important goal is to remove rust, and someone stays up toiling away all night with 2000 grit sandpaper and only removes half the rust; would he be said to have "gone the extra mile" compared to someone who removed all the rust in a short time with 40 grit sandpaper?  

As I mentioned earlier, it costs more and takes more time to hide them than to just drill some holes on the panel and push some bolts through.  They hid them and they did it intentionally at an extra cost.

I didn't disagree with that. I disagree with the "extra mile" characterization of this, due to the implication of this phrase that the results were an improvement over the easier alternative.

And if you believe that the complaints of operators forced the manufacturers to use the bolts, then how do you explain a very recent game like Gauntlet Legends which has no exposed bolts?  Are they thumbing their noses at the operators, or did they just wish to not sully the extremely artistic presentation of the cabinet with exposed hardware?

You would have to ask them. I only suggested a possibility. I didn't claim to know the reasoning behind each and every case. You are the one that is implying that you know.

Personally, I dislike the concept of a "generic" cab in an Arcade.  You actually did bring up a good example.  When the manufacturers (and operators) no longer cared about presentation, the arcades lost something special.  Generic cabinets (usually coupled with "do-it-yourself-marquees") lowered the bar, and probably helped in some perhaps not-so-small way to hasten the decline of the industry.

That is something different altogether. Do you find the design of the Dynamo to be ugly based solely on the design itself (and not what the generic cabinet trend represented to the industry)? Keep in mind that a Williams Joust, Atari Centipede, Data East Karate Champ, Taito Double Dragon, etc., all follow roughly the same lines, and that general style is the first thing that pops into most people's minds when they hear "arcade machine".

But I'm seeing that you don't quite get the idea of personal preference.  It's possible for an individual to like or dislike anything for no other reason than that they do.  You seem to be putting way to much effort into justifying something so basic.  Certain manufacturers found exposed hardware offensive, while others took the more utilitarian approach.  It prerogative, pure and simple.  They obviously preferred one way over the other, so why is it so hard for you to accept that we can behave similarly?

I'm simply pointing out the irony, given the context.  

T-molding is seen as an acceptable means of finishing man-made wood products that do not inherently have a good edge-grain.  It's used on many a commercial product.  The thin veneers used as an alternative are no better or worse.  Just a different option selected for a specific purpose.

It is chosen primarily for its durability and ease of replacement (sound familiar?). This is a very important consideration for products intended for a commercial environment. In any event, neither the T-molding nor the cheap man-made wood-stuff material that it is attached to rank very high for "style" or "good taste" (which is the oppostite of "tacky").

It is kind of like worrying that your leopard-print couch looks "tacky" next to your harvest gold shag carpeting.

[MaximRecoil]

The finishing and wood on the cabs coming straight out the factory was not furniture grade. We make cabs better now. Better paint, better wood, better joysticks, better artwork, better designed cabs and less showing bolt heads. We take pride in our built and built what we feel looks nice. Maintaining the style of the originals, but not the poor finishing.

Better paint: Do you think you can best the factory finish on a Nintendo cabinet for example? This is a heat cured epoxy finish that some people mistake for a laminate.

Better wood: How so? Most people use MDF. Plenty of original cabinets also use MDF. Another option is plywood. Again, lots of original cabinets also used plywood. In the case of original cabinets made from particle board, then either MDF or plywood is indeed a better choice IMO.

Better joysticks: Which joysticks are you referring to exactly?

Better artwork: This is a highly subjective claim if you are referring to the art content itself. However, most BYOAC cabinets do not use screen printed artwork while nearly all original cabinets did. 

Better designed cabs: "Better designed" how? Perhaps better designed to play hundreds of games, but that is comparing apples to oranges so to speak.

I really don't see what the fact that some original cabs had bolts showing has anything to do with if we want to show them now. Some cabs did show them and some not. So you can make both arguments from that. It's completely useless.

Unless you want to make an exact replica of a specific cab there is no need to show bolt heads in order to be "authentic".

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I never claimed that someone should have exposed bolt heads in order to be authentic (especially since not all cabinets had them). I am saying that the claim that exposed bolt heads are "tacky" is a ridiculous piece of irony, given the context.

I don't care how people decide to build their own cabinets—with or without visible carriage bolts, I couldn't care less. It is the claim that one or the other is "tacky" that is ridiculous.

[RandyT]

I own three original arcade machines and nothing else (four if you count the gutted machine in the shed). Two of them have visible carriage bolts and one of them does not. I didn't make the decision, the manufacturers of them did.

What do you suppose the decision was based upon?

I didn't disagree with that. I disagree with the "extra mile" characterization of this, due to the implication of this phrase that the results were an improvement over the easier alternative.

They must have thought it was, or they wouldn't have done it.  I'm sure they believed they were "going the extra mile".

I didn't claim to know the reasoning behind each and every case. You are the one that is implying that you know.

All I know is common sense and having designed commercial kiosks for a few years.  One basic rule is to hide hardware if possible, and it usually is.

That is something different altogether. Do you find the design of the Dynamo to be ugly based solely on the design itself (and not what the generic cabinet trend represented to the industry)? Keep in mind that a Williams Joust, Atari Centipede, Data East Karate Champ, Taito Double Dragon, etc., all follow roughly the same lines, and that general style is the first thing that pops into most people's minds when they hear "arcade machine".

No, it is not.  I can honestly say that I do not prefer generic cabinets in an arcade setting, and that really all the justification that is necessary.  It is my preference.  See how that works?  But I will humor you and say that each of the games that you mentioned own that similar design.  They had specific artwork that connected the game to the cabinet design and so-on.  The generic cabs are just generic cabs with no personality, merely a similar shape.

It is chosen primarily for its durability and ease of replacement (sound familiar?). This is a very important consideration for products intended for a commercial environment. In any event, neither the T-molding nor the cheap man-made wood-stuff material that it is attached to rank very high for "style" or "good taste" (which is the oppostite of "tacky").

Again, it is a subjective terminology.  Retro modern is pretty tacky by todays standards, but was considered "classy" in the 70's.  And the T-molding is as much about defining the look and feel of the game as it is to protect / hide the edges.  Unless you would now like to take the position that a Pac-Man cabinet would look the same with green T-molding on it.

RandyT

[MaximRecoil]

What do you suppose the decision was based upon?

Who knows? Different companies tend to have different priorities and ideas.

They must have thought it was, or they wouldn't have done it.  I'm sure they believed they were "going the extra mile".

Yes, they probably did believe they were "going the extra mile". I wonder if operators believed they "went the extra mile" as a T-nut started spinning in place when they tried to remove the bolt, due to gunked and rusted threads from several months or years' worth of soda spills.

All I know is common sense and having designed commercial kiosks for a few years.  One basic rule is to hide hardware if possible, and it usually is.

All hardware isn't necessarily given equal considerations. Hardware that mounts a joystick, which needs routine maintenance, and is subject to the likes of soda spills, may very well have different considerations (beyond subjective aesthetics) than hardware that will rarely, if ever, have to be removed.

No, it is not.

Yes it is a different thing altogether. We were talking about ugly cabinet designs, and you went off on something different.

I can honestly say that I do not prefer generic cabinets in an arcade setting, and that really all the justification that is necessary.  It is my preference.  See how that works?  But I will humor you and say that each of the games that you mentioned own that similar design.  They had specific artwork that connected the game to the cabinet design and so-on.  The generic cabs are just generic cabs with no personality, merely a similar shape.

So apparently you don't find that general shape to be ugly.

Again, it is a subjective terminology.  Retro modern is pretty tacky by todays standards, but was considered "classy" in the 70's.  And the T-molding is as much about defining the look and feel of the game as it is to protect / hide the edges.  Unless you would now like to take the position that a Pac-Man cabinet would look the same with green T-molding on it.

Look and feel was a secondary consideration. Once you have already decided to use T-molding (and pretty much all of them did make that very decision) because it is a cheap and durable method of finishing and protecting the edges of the cheap wood, then it is a small matter to specify a color of the T-molding when you order it.

[patrickl]

I guess you stated "tasteful"  in the poll. That's about all we need to know really. There is no right or wrong when the question is a matter of taste.

[MaximRecoil]

I guess you stated "tasteful"  in the poll.

"Tasteful" wasn't an option in the poll.

There is no right or wrong when the question is a matter of taste.

No, but there is irony.

[FrizzleFried]

Why is it that Maximum is the only guy i've EVER SEEN that thinks Japanese Nintendo cabinets are covered in heat cured epoxy?   It's FORMICA!  I know...I've removed some!  Sheesh...

[MaximRecoil]

Why is it that Maximum is the only guy i've EVER SEEN that thinks Japanese Nintendo cabinets are covered in heat cured epoxy?

Prok thinks so too, along with me and whoever "Maximum" is (lol).

Original Galagas were built with the
same coated wood process that Nintendo cabs were (the japanese version has a
thicker coating though).  These were an epoxy based finish that is typically
sprayed by machine and cured with heat

Link

It's FORMICA!  I know...I've removed some!  Sheesh...

Like hell it is. You realize that "Formica" is a brand of HPL right? And it is about 1/16" thick, or half that for "vertical grade". You also can't see traces of the grain of the plywood through HPL, while you can on Japanese plywood Nintendo cabinets.

If you removed some HPL from a Nintendo cabinet then it was an anomaly (maybe operator applied or Nintendo used different finishes at different times), because neither my Punch-Out nor my Popeye have laminate of any sort. It is a coating that is hard enough to chip/flake (meaning not Melamine/LPL) and as thin as a paint job (meaning not Formica/HPL) as well as being able to see traces of the plywood grain beneath it (again, obviously not HPL).

Edit: This is from the Popeye in the shed:



It is paper thin and note the impressions in it from where it formed to the grain of the plywood. It is flexible to a point, but if you start to fold it, it snaps cleanly in two. I wonder where I can get a lab analysis done of it, lol.

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

You are not even going to paint it?

Oh yeah, I'm gonna paint it.  I'll probably give it a thorough painting, sanding, painting, etc...make it nice and smooth and less "wood like".



I should also add, that I had NO idea my poll would stir up such debate!  I was just looking for second opinions, haha. 

[Avrus]

Yeah, but like I said, I'm not planning on adding an overlay or lexan to my CP...But rather, simply put a nice sturdy finish on the wood.  Given that, if exposed carriage bolt heads are considered tacky, I would certainly consider exposed t-nuts more tacky.  And I guess I'd be more likely to choose the lesser of the two tackies (haha).

You are not even going to paint it?

Oh yeah, I'm gonna paint it.  I'll probably give it a thorough painting, sanding, painting, etc...make it nice and smooth and less "wood like".



I should also add, that I had NO idea my poll would stir up such debate!  I was just looking for second opinions, haha. 

If it's arcade related ... it's going to stir a debate.