Newbi advice

[stan2323]

I have read a lot hear and I have a couple of questions.

1st let me attach a picture of my control panel layout so far.  I have do not have much experience with control panel layout so I was wondering what you guys thought of this layout?  Are they too close together?  The small circles are HAPP pushbuttons.   I put the ruler in for scale.  I have not cut wood yet or ordered the parts as I want to get a good layout first.  I decided to use a piece of cardboard and cut the items out so I could move them around to see how different layout would look and feel.  I have it set up at play height and put my hands where the controls would be.



I plan to put a 4 1/2 HAPP trackball in vs a 3in trackball.  Do you think it is worth it based on $175 for the 4 ½ in trackball and the $80 for the 3 in trackball?  I tried the search as I thought there may be a thread discussing this already but was unable to find one.

Thanks in advance for helping a newbi.

Stan

[Teknique]

layout looks interesting. 

-Any reason why its not symetrical between p1 and p2?
- dont bother with extra buttons for trackball.  Incorporate them into existing p1 or p2 button layout (i think thats what the 4 buttons are for around the tball?).
- do not buy slik stik tornado- there are better options out there- check into groovy game gear's spinner from RandyT on the boards here.
- 4 and half inch tball might be overkill unless you want to play missle command alot.  Most people use a 3 inch which is more 'standard'.  Only game that I can think of that used such a big tball was missle command.  this will save room and cash.
- button configs might be a bit far away from the edge of the cp for p1 and maybe too clsoe to the edge for p2.  Check into the feel of it.

Looks nice otherwise. 

Check out the cp database that is stickied at top for more ideas.

Tek

[CheffoJeffo]

I have some of the old Atari 4.5" trackballs and they are quite the beasts -- I can't imagine playing some of the twitchier trackball games with them.

I would expect the modern Happ balls to be lighter, but it still may be a lot of work to play some games.

[stan2323]

The 2 button to the lower right of the trackball are for the spinner and the 2 to the lower left were for the trackball itself.  The four alone the top are for 1 - 4 player start.

I looked at the CP data base.  I noticed that some of them put the spinner near the back of the CP.  I tried that but found it awkward for me.

I hope mine looks as good as those when I get done.

[Fozzy The Bear]

You don't need separate buttons for the spinner and the trackball.... They are effectively the two mouse buttons anyway. I've posted a picture of my layout, which works well for me and has the same functions as yours. It might give you some ideas.  This layout is only 29" X 11" I attached a couple of pics so you can see how it comes out. This uses a 3" Betson Imperial TrackBall.... Also available from Groovy Game Gear http://www.groovygamegear.com A 4.5" Trackball is way too big and heavy for most games.

Don't angle player 1 to the screen..... like on the left side of your panel. It should be square to the screen. It makes play very difficult if it's not.

Personally I think you also have too much real estate in front of your controls... slim that beastie down, from back to front, or move the controls towards the player.

ALSO!! If you don't already have it, forget the SlikStik Spinner and get the turbotwist2 from Groovy Game Gear. Its a way way way better device and you'll actually get it delivered to you.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[LeedsFan]

I have no experience of the 4" trackball but I believe Happs were selling the 3" High-Lip version recently for just $55 dollars (not including mounting plate). I would personally move the spinner to the top left area but of course it has to be comfy for you to play. You also have to think about if you play vigorously on the trackball. Your hand will easily hit the spinner and trigger joystick if you do.

Is there any reason the trackball can't be brought forward towards the front of the panel? And try to line up the player 1 and 2 sets of controls. I wouldn't like to play Smash TV or Robotron with off set joysticks like that. If you ditch the trackball buttons you could have them a little closer together as well.

[divemaster127]

I would use the happ 3" usb over the 4 1/2 trackball, the 4 1/2 is very very heavy its a monster

[DaveMMR]

I pretty much agree with everything everyone else said.

- The joystick/button sets should be a mimic of each other, preferably with buttons laid out along a horizontal axis instead of a diagonal one (thing about how you rest your hand while playing).  Some people make their buttons ergonomic (middle buttons stagger up a bit), but they generally stay left to right.

- The extra buttons for the mouse/spinner are unnecessary as the main buttons are quite certainly up to task (most emulators/programs/games are configurable - especially MAME).

- 3" trackball is definitely the way to go.  4-1/2 inch is too big IMO.  Also, since you (or you will) have the real estate, I'd move it down a bit lower for more space.  Many games require a wild flailing of the ball (e.g. Golden Tee) and you don't want other things in the way.

- Segregate that spinner a bit - up and out of the way of the trackball. 

Otherwise, a good start! 

[TOK]

The shape and size of my panel look pretty similar to yours. I put the trackball closer to the player and put the spinner down on the right. The major difference is the lack of a trigger stick. The low spinner placement on mine is to keep it clear of the trackball for golf and bowling games. By your layout looks like Tron games might be important to you though.

[ids]

Fozzy - what are you using for the little black lip around the trackball?  I'd been thinking of checking out grommets (eg http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p=50444&cat=3,40894,41369) but they are kind of wide.

[stan2323]

Thanks for all your help and advice.

By your layout looks like Tron games might be important to you though.

Yep.  Tron is one of my 3 favorite games.  Tron, Centipede, and Big Buck Hunter.

OK Your advice has sold me on the 3 in track ball and turbotwist2.  I think I can slim it down to 16 in.  and maybe shorten it a few inches.  I want it to be at least 32 in long as the cabinet is 30 in wide and I like a couple of inches of over hang on the edges. 

[DeLuSioNal29]

Tron is one of my favs too.  Here is my layout, although it's a 4 player panel.

I have the spinner near the flight stick, but I made sure to have the spinner offset from the trackball so that when I play games like Golden Tee, I don't break a finger when I whip the trackball up.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Fozzy - what are you using for the little black lip around the trackball?  I'd been thinking of checking out grommets (eg http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p=50444&cat=3,40894,41369) but they are kind of wide.

The little lip around the trackball is the top of the trackball case. The Betson trackballs have this lip built in to the flat top surface... So do most of the Happ ones. The trackball on this panel is mounted without a mounting plate. Two pieces of angle aluminium are mounted on the underside of the panel and the case of the Trackball is screwed to them. This brings the top surface of the trackball case flush with the top surface of the panel. The overlay then has a hole cut for the lip to poke through and the lexan top surface has a similar hole, the lip of the trackball then sits flush with the top of the lexan.

I've attached another photo of the underside of the panel while it was still under construction so you can see the aluminium angle brackets.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[DeLuSioNal29]

Is that a spinner knob I see under there that is being used as an energy storage cylinder, or do you play spinner games from underneath your panel?   

[ids]

The little lip around the trackball is the top of the trackball case.

Very interesting - the lexan must be quite thin, else the lip high.  I have a few Betsons I'll be mounting soon and the lip on them is not so high.  I am thinking of pulling the top of the case off, which is why I am looking for something to buffer them up-top for vigorous games like Golden-Tee.

Tron is one of my favs too.  Here is my layout, although it's a 4 player panel.

Nice layout - what are the dimensions?

[DeLuSioNal29]

Tron is one of my favs too.  Here is my layout, although it's a 4 player panel.

Nice layout - what are the dimensions?

It's a monster at 48" wide and 21" deep.  The picture I posted is a virtual mock-up that I used to plan it all.  I have all the parts ready to install, my cab is all done except for the empty control panel which should arrive any day now and the marquee which is waiting to be printed.  I had it custom cut by arcadesrfun.com.  The dimensions are for the super quad, which you can see on the site.  (Same size as the super quad by Slikstick).  I will post pictures of it once it arrives, but nothing yet.

Thanks for the positive comment on my panel.

Also, if you are curious, I designed a matching marquee and intro video which you can view here:
http://linkedmedia.tripod.com/delusionalarcade/

~ D

[u_rebelscum]

The little lip around the trackball is the top of the trackball case.

Very interesting - the lexan must be quite thin, else the lip high.  I have a few Betsons I'll be mounting soon and the lip on them is not so high.  I am thinking of pulling the top of the case off, which is why I am looking for something to buffer them up-top for vigorous games like Golden-Tee.

How tall are your TB lips? 1/16", 1/8", or 3/16"?  3/16" is "high lip", and both happs and betson have these as their "current" models.  1/16" is old school height, and the original atari/happs and betson TBs were like this, and are still for sale.  The only 1/8" lip I've seen are on happs high ball model.

So if you have a high lip model (3/16"), the 1/16" mounting plate + a 1/8" lexan is perfect.
If you have an old school lip model (1/16"), it's a lot harder.

Pic I made years ago, assuming 1/8" lexan:

[ids]

Guess that makes me old-school - they seem to be 1/16".  If it helps to identify them, there's also a sticker on the bottom saying "Version 2 trackball no spacer required".  I found these piled in a bin at a place called Active Surplus a while ago.  They seemed kinda new-ish, as the wires still had twist-ties on them, but they didn't seem like they were fresh from manufacturing (guess that's makes them NOS?).   Would a mounting plate provide a good smooth surface to bounce off during a rough game of Golden Tee?   (again, assuming I pull the top off)

[Zebidee]

Tron is one of my favs too.  Here is my layout, although it's a 4 player panel.

Hey Delusional, your CPO rocks!  Do you have your original background artwork available?  Can I use it?  I'm looking for a cool background to my new 4P control panel, and that artwork would be f'kn fantastic!

[TPB]

ALSO!! If you don't already have it, forget the SlikStik Spinner and get the turbotwist2 from Groovy Game Gear. Its a way way way better device and you'll actually get it delivered to you.

OK Your advice has sold me on the 3 in track ball and turbotwist2.

Stan,

A wise change of heart.

GGG has an impeccable corporate reputation, and the TT2 is the best spinner out there, which you'll be very happy with.  It is top quality, has the highest number of transitions (1,200) per revolution, and has options available such as a Steering Wheel.  The only competing spinner you may wish to consider, is GGG's latest release, the TT-HL up/down spinner.

Regarding Fozzy's advice ... he speaks words of wisdom.

As a newbie, you may be unfamiliar with the SlikStik fiasco.

I won't go into it here, as there's a thread devoted to it :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=72444.0

But here's an example from that thread, pertinent to your original purchase intention :

I was able to successfully recover the funds I "lent" to Slikstik for a spinner that didn't ship after 30 days of ordering

[stan2323]

Yes I read that and was very glad I decided to ask for advice before I did anything. 

One interesting note is that Randy and GGG are in Ithaca, according to there web site.  I am about 50 miles away in Syracuse and go to that area every month or so to visit family.  I would like to pick up the TT2 in person along with a couple of GP-Wiz MAX 32 Input USB Controls Interfaces, thus saving on shipping.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Is that a spinner knob I see under there that is being used as an energy storage cylinder, or do you play spinner games from underneath your panel?   

LOL Yes it's the original spinner knob from before I fitted the big blue one... I glued a load of penny washers to it, to act as an energy storage flywheel. And because it fits the shaft prefectly it works great.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[stan2323]

I am resurrecting this because I have the mock up done with the actual controls in it and have tried it out at about play height.  See the redesign below.  I wanted to post and see if you all had any other advice, to stop me from making a terrible mistake, before I start to cut wood, weather permitting this weekend.  I plan to counter sink the track ball mounting plate and the flight joystick.  The only thing I have not decided is weather to mount the joysticks on the top and counter sink them or bottom and counter sink them up.  I have seen pros and cons of each so I am going to do a test both ways in the shop.  I want to put a piece of lexan on the top.  I am glad I took your advice and went with a 3 in track ball as it is much heaver than the ones I remember.  I think a 4 ½ would have been out of my league.  I decided to keep the two buttons for the track ball and I am going to wire the flight sticks buttons up to the spinner.  I have it propped up at play height and it feel OK to me.  The flight stick does not seem to be in the way when I use the track ball.  Is there anything major wrong with it?

[Nailz]

Why do you have the joysticks and their buttons at 2 completely different heights?  I am drawn to that huge amount of blank space in the upper right....  keeping things lined up greatly improve the aesthetics of any CP.

If it were me, i'd try centering the trackball a bit more as well as bringing the spinner towards the middle as well.  I also notice that you have player 1-4 buttons and you have a 2 control panel, any reason?

Just my thoughts, you're heading down the right road with your hardware choices, now you just need to tweak the layout some more.  You really should go through some of the examples on the site to see what others have done in the past that work well also.

[stan2323]

If I put player 2s joystick up to line up with the player 1s joystick I found the flight stick is in the way of my arm on 2p.  If I put the flight stick up there the joystick is in the way.  I did not like them in any other arrangement.  One kept getting in the way of the other.  I figure the white space will give me a nice area for graphics.

I wanted the flight stick on that side and the spinner on the other side for Tron.

I have looked at most of the CPs that I could find and one thing I noticed is the tendency to put the spinner in the back.  I did not like it in the least. 

I plan to use the other player 3 and 4 buttons as admin buttons.  I am going to put a sticker on them.