Rise of the Video Game - tonight on Discovery

[vidmouse]

Don't know if this is a repeat or not, but
Discovery Channel has "Rise of the Video Game"
at 8pm EST tonight... from the description it looks
like the start of a series?? (let's hope!)

[zudmsc]

It is a 5 part series 1 hour each.  My DVR is all set to record the entire series.  Hopefully it is new video and not rehashes of older shows.

Michael

[Shanefrom302]

I'm gonna try to remember!! lol

[BUCKETHEAD]

MY DVR is set for the series.

Tonight it says PONG and PAC-MAN usher in the revolution.

[zudmsc]

Well that sucked.  My Discovery HD channel was sending a bad video feed and was cutting off the very top and very bottom of the screen.  So all I saw was the person's name, but not who they were or where they worked.  Now I have to record it again on the non HD Discovery channel.

Michael

[Ahigh]

Watched it.  They got the story more accurate on the genesis.

I also enjoyed seeing the real first video game they reported as working on a x-y oscilloscope, which was pong also, but with gravity.

Of course seeing real controls for SPACE WAR that ran on the PDP was really cool too.

--
- Ahigh

[BUCKETHEAD]

I didn't really enjoy this 1st episode at all.   

Except for seeing SPACE INVADERS and PAC-MAN.

They tried adding to much POLTICS in it for my tastes.

Maybe the next episodes will be better?

[maxmix]

Edit by saint - no piracy!

[Encryptor]

Edit by saint - no piracy!

[maxmix]

Edit by saint - no piracy!

[Dmod]

I didn't really enjoy this 1st episode at all.   

I regret to agree with this. 

The military footage and and numerous attempts to connect the video game industry and the cold war were excessive in my opinion.

[JimmyU]

It really was disjointed.  The last 5 minutes devoted to Tetris really did not make sense since part one was supposed to be the rise of the videogame era.  Tetris wasn't made until 1985 and didn't become big until 1989 when the Gameboy version was released.

[MaximRecoil]

It really was disjointed.  The last 5 minutes devoted to Tetris really did not make sense since part one was supposed to be the rise of the videogame era.  Tetris wasn't made until 1985 and didn't become big until 1989 when the Gameboy version was released.

Yeah, I thought they were skipping ahead a lot too, going from talking about Pac-Man to talking about Tetris. But at the end it said they would be talking about Donkey Kong in the next episode.

The video games/cold war connection was ridiculous. Nolan Bushnell's assertion that in general, females have better fine motor skills than males, was equally ridiculous. That's something that only holds true until puberty.

I also decided that Ralph Baer's version of Pong which allows "English" to be put on the ball looks a lot cooler than Atari's.

Edit by saint - no piracy please.

[Zebidee]

The video games/cold war connection was ridiculous. Nolan Bushnell's assertion that in general, females have better fine motor skills than males, was equally ridiculous.

Yes, completely ridiculous.  Another example of the latest sexist trend, where men become innocent victims of misdirected enthusiasm in the media to portray women as "better".  It would be so much better if everyone was just treated equally.

People used to say that women were better suited to sewing and repetitive factory work because they have better hand coordination skills.  The statement was ridiculous then, and it still is now.

[MaximRecoil]

Yes, completely ridiculous.  Another example of the latest sexist trend, where men become innocent victims of misdirected enthusiasm in the media to portray women as "better".  It would be so much better if everyone was just treated equally.

People used to say that women were better suited to sewing and repetitive factory work because they have better hand coordination skills.  The statement was ridiculous then, and it still is now.

Yeah. If Nolan had made the claim that in general, men have better fine motor skills than women, you know it would have been left on the cutting room floor.

[fjl]

It really was disjointed.  The last 5 minutes devoted to Tetris really did not make sense since part one was supposed to be the rise of the videogame era.  Tetris wasn't made until 1985 and didn't become big until 1989 when the Gameboy version was released.

That's not completely true. I recall when tetris first came for the NES in 1987 it also became popular. I was just a kid but all the kids would talk about it in school. I can recall. But your right that it didnt become main stream until the GB version mainly cause it was an awesome game on the go. And thats when the famous Tetris song came to be.

By the way, why isnt' there a decent tetris game on MAME?

[Zebidee]

Beliefs like that can be self-reinforcing, of course, but senior management at this multi-million dollar company took it as a given.

Shows you how dumb senior management can be, and proves that dollars do not equal sense.


So, stabbing in the dark here - were the "senior management" at this electronic components company mostly men ??   

[HairyDVD]

I thought this episode was a mixed bag.

Thought it was interesting to see how the original pong was created and how they 'squeezed' and couple of sound effect out of it without having to add lots of chips.  The crap that was churned out when atari was sold off and I thought the landfill site full of e.t. cartridges was an urban legend.

[maxmix]

I thought it was entertaining.... Not many progs like this here in the UK etc....

maxmix

PS At 40 it brought back loads of memories lol

[RandyT]

At 40 it brought back loads of memories lol

And it is this aspect that made me enjoy this show more than any of the other video game "history" programs.  It gave a real feel for the times, which was a very important element in the progression.  Without understanding what the world was like, it's difficult to understand how much of what happened was possible, or the reasons they happened the way they did.

Having just turned 42, it was an enjoyable look at the past.  And Tetris was big long before the GB version.  It was all over the Cornell and other universities.  Everyone who went to college, worked at a college or knew someone who worked at a college was probably playing it on their XT at the time.  I know I was, in all of it's monochrome simulated CGA glory.   

Is it just the younger folk who didn't care for the show?

RandyT

[Dmod]

Is it just the younger folk who didn't care for the show?

I don't think so... I'm turning 39 next month.

I've enjoyed previous history programs which delve more into the competitive nature of the arcade business and the personalities involved rather than the political aspects.

It probably just comes down to what you identify most with.  Working in the high tech industry and having lived through both the rise and fall of the tech bubble firsthand, I just find the business and technology war to be a lot more appealing and amusing.

[vizzinni]

I agree with RandyT...I'm well into my 40's and watched the show with my two teenaged PS3/PC-gamer boys, and I thought the historical context gave them a bit of perspective on the old man's childhood <video games and the constant threat of MAD (the strategy, not the magazine)>

And Missile Command is far less intense without the Cold war context....

[MaximRecoil]

Is it just the younger folk who didn't care for the show?

RandyT

I grew up in the 80's and thought the whole "cold war connection" with video games in that show was both exaggerated and unnecessary. I rarely gave a second thought to the "cold war" back then. We talked about it in school and whatnot, but I didn't lose any sleep, and I doubt many other people did either. We never had anything going on like we heard about from our teachers and parents back then about having drills in school where you would get under your desk, or people commonly building fallout shelters, or the Cuban Missile Crisis. In fact, we thought it was funny that there was a fallout shelter under the Post Office (or was it the library?). It seemed like such a dated and out-of-place concept in the 80's.

I don't know anyone from "back in the day" that seriously thought Russia would attack with a nuclear strike. We knew it would be suicide for them to do so.

[RandyT]

I grew up in the 80's and thought the whole "cold war connection" with video games in that show was both exaggerated and unnecessary. I rarely gave a second thought to the "cold war" back then. We talked about it in school and whatnot, but I didn't lose any sleep, and I doubt many other people did either. We never had anything going on like we heard about from our teachers and parents back then about having drills in school where you would get under your desk, or people commonly building fallout shelters, or the Cuban Missile Crisis. In fact, we thought it was funny that there was a fallout shelter under the Post Office (or was it the library?). It seemed like such a dated and out-of-place concept in the 80's.

I don't know anyone from "back in the day" that seriously thought Russia would attack with a nuclear strike. We knew it would be suicide for them to do so.

After these statements, I have to ask how old you are.  I *do* remember the "under the desk" drills and evacuations into the school basement.  I do remember seeing the fallout shelter signs everywhere.  I remember quite clearly the threat of nuclear annihilation and movies like "The Day After" as they were being shown on network TV for the first time, as well as others attempting to realistically depict what might happen in a real nuclear exchange (and consequently helped to prevent it, IMHO)

Did I lose any sleep over it?  Not really.  It was more one of those things that just lived in the back of your head and did indeed come out when playing games like Missile Command and games with other "death from the skies" play.

FWIW, I was on a nuclear base in Europe for several years in the 80's, that had short range nuclear stuff pointed at "you-know-who".  Apparently someone thought there was a real threat.

RandyT

[maxmix]

Good old War lol

Here are a couple that spring to mind

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/



and

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087597/



maxmix

[MaximRecoil]

After these statements, I have to ask how old you are. 

About 9 years younger than you. Your childhood was mainly in the 70's, mine was in the 80's.  

I *do* remember the "under the desk" drills and evacuations into the school basement.  I do remember seeing the fallout shelter signs everywhere.  I remember quite clearly the threat of nuclear annihilation and movies like "The Day After" as they were being shown on network TV for the first time, as well as others attempting to realistically depict what might happen in a real nuclear exchange (and consequently helped to prevent it, IMHO)

I started school in 1980 and we never had anything like that. We had fire drills, and that was it. Under-the-desk drills and fallout shelters having any relevance, were relics from the 60's from my perspective.

I saw "The Day After" too (I was 8 when that aired). I also saw Red Dawn and War Games when they came out. I also played Missile Command on my Atari 2600. But that was all just entertainment and I never knew of anyone who was actively worried about a nuclear attack.

Did I lose any sleep over it?  Not really.  It was more one of those things that just lived in the back of your head and did indeed come out when playing games like Missile Command and games with other "death from the skies" play.

FWIW, I was on a nuclear base in Europe for several years in the 80's, that had short range nuclear stuff pointed at "you-know-who".  Apparently someone thought there was a real threat.

RandyT

And that is the very reason why they were not a significant threat. I suppose a lot more people would have been worried about Russia in the 80's if we were defenseless. But like I said, everyone knew that it would be suicide for them to attack us. Like Reagan said, "Peace through strength".

There is nothing wrong with documentaries about the Cold War, but they overdid it for this documentary which was supposed to be about video games. It came off as a "Well back in my day..." type exaggerated story—walking 5 miles to school barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways—that sort of thing.

The only major title that had a strong connection to the Cold War was Missile Command.  

[Zebidee]

Ah, you were LUCKY .....

Weeeeell, Back in my day you'd count yourself LUCKY to be able to walk to school 5 miles school barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways.  Why, we'd had to live in a shoebox and clean the road with our TONGUE before supper!

But you tell that to the young'uns today, and they DOOOON'T believe you!

[maxmix]

BTW Enough of this chit chat....  When is part 2 aired in the US

So I can get ready to D/L again

maxmix

[RandyT]

BTW Enough of this chit chat....  When is part 2 aired in the US

Tonight at 8pm EST.

About 9 years younger than you. Your childhood was mainly in the 70's, mine was in the 80's. 

Ahh, the difference 9 years can make   FWIW, an awful lot of the history presented in that first episode took place before 1980, which is most likely why you are having difficulty relating to it. 

And that is the very reason why they were not a significant threat. I suppose a lot more people would have been worried about Russia in the 80's if we were defenseless. But like I said, everyone knew that it would be suicide for them to attack us. Like Reagan said, "Peace through strength".

Ok, I have to get this straight, so they were not a significant threat because we found the threat significant enough to deploy thousands of troops to foreign countries ready to fire nuclear weapons at them at a moments notice. I guess that sort of makes sense.

The only major title that had a strong connection to the Cold War was Missile Command. 

There were others.  War themes included Commando, Rambo (the movie and the video game), another shooter (can't remember the name) that dropped a dreaded "MIRV" that destroyed the cities you were defending (actual citties from around the word) and plenty of other war related games.  Viet Nam was also mentioned, not just the "cold war".  There were tons of tactical simulations for home computers as well.  Games really didn't start getting "cutesy" until Nintendo.  That episode airs tonight.

RandyT

[TOK]

There were others.  War themes included Command, Rambo (the movie and the video game), another shooter (can't remember the name) that dropped a dreaded "MIRV" that destroyed the cities you were defending (actual citties from around the word) and plenty of other war related games.  Viet Nam was also mentioned, not just the "cold war".  There were tons of tactical simulations for home computers as well.  Games really didn't start getting "cutesy" until Nintendo.  That episode airs tonight.

RandyT

Rush n' Attack, which is about as thinly veiled a reference as you can get. 

[Avrus]

Honestly I didn't think they spend enough time on Atari.  In my mind Atari is what started the arcade revolution -- and they seemed to have it out of order because I don't recall going to an arcade before Atari but in the mid to late 80's arcades were HUGE.

As soon as you got out of school you were in an arcade.

[bfauska]

They failed to mention Computer Space.  I don't know much about the game except it was out before Pong, which they gave credit as the first "Arcade" game.

I was pleased to come home and find episode 2 listed in my TiVo since I had created a season pass for it.

[Xiaou2]

 Ok, I thought the 1st episode was 'ok'. 

 But after barely suffering thru the 2nd,  I can say that Im severely unimpressed,
and overall disgusted.

 Id say 98% of the statements that the interviewed people made absolutely incorrect BS.
(portrayed as truth!)

 It was low down shame how they skipped over some of the most important
historical aspects of the arcade industry...  as well as the computer and console happenings.
 Geez..  they discuss the Genesis for 10 seconds, then 30 seconds later... its the PS1!

 Going from Dkong to Grand Theft Auto in less than an Hr?!   I nearly lost my cookies...  and
had to fight not to turn the thing off 1/4th way thru it all.

 The depth of the actual pioneers of the arcade industry were literally untouched.
As was the hardware challenges, and great stories behind it all.

 It cracked me up how they tried to put their spin into it... by saying that it was
Mario's  "STORY"  that changed everything!    What a Joke.   The reason D.Kong
got rave attention was due to more advanced hardware (at that time period),
good graphics, and Solid gameplay. (vastly different gameplay than what was
currently available or in the past - again, mostly due to more advanced hardware)

 Almost All games had some story behind them.   Weather or not the game had
the capability to convey it promisingly, is another thing entirely.    D.kong wasnt
really any Epic story.    It was gameplay that made it special.  Not a 'Story'.

 You can bet I wont be watching the rest.   Its a disgrace to Video game History.

[MaximRecoil]

Ahh, the difference 9 years can make   FWIW, an awful lot of the history presented in that first episode took place before 1980, which is most likely why you are having difficulty relating to it. 

Well that's fine, but what relevance to video games does that have? Before Missile Command, what was there with a Cold War theme? Pong? Space Invaders? Galaxian? Pong certainly doesn't count, and it is quite a stretch to associate space/alien themes with the Cold War.

Ok, I have to get this straight, so they were not a significant threat because we found the threat significant enough to deploy thousands of troops to foreign countries ready to fire nuclear weapons at them at a moments notice. I guess that sort of makes sense.

You do realize that such actions go a long way to neutralize the threat, right? If there is a criminal on the loose with a gun, that's a threat. How does the dynamic change when he's cornered by a SWAT team with guns aimed at him? Given the ubiquity of the survival instinct among most creatures, humans included, and assuming he's not suicidal, the threat is now greatly reduced. Yes, he still has a gun but now he is probably not going to do much with it.

The only major title that had a strong connection to the Cold War was Missile Command. 

There were others.  War themes included Commando, Rambo (the movie and the video game), another shooter (can't remember the name) that dropped a dreaded "MIRV" that destroyed the cities you were defending (actual citties from around the word) and plenty of other war related games.  Viet Nam was also mentioned, not just the "cold war".  There were tons of tactical simulations for home computers as well.  Games really didn't start getting "cutesy" until Nintendo.  That episode airs tonight.

Yes, and general war themes have never died out in video games, and I suspect they never will. They have no strong association with the Cold War, in which the alleged threat was a nuclear attack rather than conventional war. Most of them from the 80's were Vietnam-themed in fact (jungle setting).

And BTW, Namco beat Nintendo to the punch with "cutesy games" with Pac-Man.

[Havok]

Edit by Havok - no piracy!

(Why should Saint have all the fun?)

[RandyT]

Well that's fine, but what relevance to video games does that have? Before Missile Command, what was there with a Cold War theme? Pong? Space Invaders? Galaxian? Pong certainly doesn't count, and it is quite a stretch to associate space/alien themes with the Cold War.

I don't think you've made the connection they attempted to show.  Technology is driven by both the "war machine" and the "race for space" .  Both of those were in high gear at the dawn of video gaming.  The same technology being used for guidance systems and other needs of those communities, was applied to a more entertaining function by the very same people.  The military and space programs were crucial to the birth of electronic gaming and that's why the emphasis.

You do realize that such actions go a long way to neutralize the threat, right?

You mean to neutralize the threat that didn't exist?

Yes, and general war themes have never died out in video games, and I suspect they never will. They have no strong association with the Cold War, in which the alleged threat was a nuclear attack rather than conventional war. Most of them from the 80's were Vietnam-themed in fact (jungle setting).

I think in Rush 'N' Attack (Russian Attack) you were actually running around on ICBM's in some stages of the game.  Even in Rambo, the Soviets were the ones "calling the shots".  Viet Nam was supposedly fought to beat back the "communist threat".  I'm pretty sure there's a connection there.

And BTW, Namco beat Nintendo to the punch with "cutesy games" with Pac-Man.

It's difficult to give PacMan the "first cutesy game" award.  The characters were very abstract, and while there was an element of lightheartedness, I'd be hard pressed to call it "cute".  Donkey Kong was really the first to have developed characters with story lines and scenery that supported them.  Those elements tend to make DK more endearing than an abstract shape eating dots and being chased by ghosts for no apparent reason.

I haven't watched the second episode yet, so I'll reserve judgment on the rest for later

RandyT

[MaximRecoil]

I don't think you've made the connection they attempted to show.  Technology is driven by both the "war machine" and the "race for space" .  Both of those were in high gear at the dawn of video gaming.  The same technology being used for guidance systems and other needs of those communities, was applied to a more entertaining function by the very same people.  The military and space programs were crucial to the birth of electronic gaming and that's why the emphasis.

Not only is that a trivial connection, but that wasn't the main connection they were trying to make. 

You do realize that such actions go a long way to neutralize the threat, right?

You mean to neutralize the threat that didn't exist?

That's a joke, right? I hope so, because if it isn't, it implies confusion on your part over a very simple concept which was explained in standard English.

They were not a significant threat because the threat was neutralized to a great extent, and being kept neutralized to a great extent. The analogy of the criminal with the gun should have made this perfectly clear to you.

I think in Rush 'N' Attack (Russian Attack) you were actually running around on ICBM's in some stages of the game.  Even in Rambo, the Soviets were the ones "calling the shots".  Viet Nam was supposedly fought to beat back the "communist threat".  I'm pretty sure there's a connection there.

Rush'n Attack came out in '85, i.e. "Glasnost" years. There was even less concern about a nuclear attack by that time.

It's difficult to give PacMan the "first cutesy game" award.  The characters were very abstract, and while there was an element of lightheartedness, I'd be hard pressed to call it "cute".  Donkey Kong was really the first to have developed characters with story lines and scenery that supported them.  Those elements tend to make DK more endearing than an abstract shape eating dots and being chased by ghosts for no apparent reason.

Pac-Man was about as "cutesy" as it got at the time. And what does a storyline, developed characters, and alleged level of endearment have to do with "cutesy"? Pac-Man was made to appeal to girls. BTW, DK only had a very rudimentary storyline (save the girl, which was not even possible to do), and character development? There wasn't much of that either.

[RandyT]

Not only is that a trivial connection, but that wasn't the main connection they were trying to make. 

Perhaps in your opinion.  Videogames and computer science  would be nowhere near where they are today without the war mentality and things like the "Star Wars Missile Defense" programs.  It's not a coincidence that early videogames had a lot of shooting and destroying of things.  Just because you viewed something a certain way when you were 12, it doesn't mean that all others saw it that way, or that it was correct.  The military was looking at videogames as enlistment and training tools since day one.  They matured hand in hand.

One of the things that is a bit disturbing about some of the comments made in response to this documentary is that some don't even agree with the commentary made by the folks who were there living it at the time.  You might think some of Nolan Bushnells comments about women and "equaling the playing field" were silly or in poor taste, but that was really the case.  For the first time, video games offered a competitive challenge that males didn't necessarily have an immediate advantage with.

Emotional attachments to video games in that time period were not uncommon.  As an arcade player, you really didn't care about the mechanics or the politics that happened behind the scenes.  Much of it wasn't even public knowledge.  With the 70's over and the "war on drugs" underway, videogames offered escapism from a world where everything was not wonderful, and where there was constant talk of nuclear armament and doomsday scenarios.  I'm happy you were born after the worst of it, but some of us were nearing draftable age when you were starting kindergarten.  We probably noticed some of these things and related them differently than you did.  It doesn't mean it was incorrect to feel either way about it.

That's a joke, right?

No.  You maintain that there was no threat, yet it was important to "neutralize" it.  It is a contradiction in logic.

..and character development? There wasn't much of that either.

In terms of eliciting an emotional response to the game, DK was far different than PacMan.  But even so, "cute" is mainly a term describing visual aesthetics.  PacMan was, like most games before it,   functional with a very basic goal and mostly abstract graphics.  DK was a step in new direction, both visually and in player experience. 

RandyT

[MaximRecoil]

Perhaps in your opinion.  Videogames and computer science  would be nowhere near where they are today without the war mentality and things like the "Star Wars Missile Defense" programs.

That is simply speculation, unfounded speculation at that.

It's not a coincidence that early videogames had a lot of shooting and destroying of things.

Or so you say. People have been shooting and destroying things for ages, long before the Cold War. How about a plinking gallery at a carnival or fair 100 years ago? You and the show's creators are trying to look far too deep into these things.

And it doesn't matter what the technology was developed for, no more than it matters what paper was developed for when you are talking about a drawing or a novel which uses paper as its medium.

One of the things that is a bit disturbing about some of the comments made in response to this documentary is that some don't even agree with the commentary made by the folks who were there living it at the time.  You might think some of Nolan Bushnells comments about women and "equaling the playing field" were silly or in poor taste, but that was really the case.  For the first time, video games offered a competitive challenge that males didn't necessarily have an immediate advantage with.

What percentage of the video gaming records out there are held by females?

Emotional attachments to video games in that time period were not uncommon.  As an arcade player, you really didn't care about the mechanics or the politics that happened behind the scenes.  Much of it wasn't even public knowledge.  With the 70's over and the "war on drugs" underway, videogames offered escapism from a world where everything was not wonderful, and where there was constant talk of nuclear armament and doomsday scenarios.  I'm happy you were born after the worst of it, but some of us were nearing draftable age when you were starting kindergarten.  We probably noticed some of these things and related them differently than you did.  It doesn't mean it was incorrect to feel either way about it.

That's exactly the type of exaggeration I'm talking about.

That's a joke, right?

No.  You maintain that there was no threat, yet it was important to "neutralize" it.  It is a contradiction in logic.

Good grief. Do you know what the word "neutralize" means? Once a threat is neutralized, is it still a threat? I'll repeat this. They were not a significant threat because for them to attack us with nuclear weapons, they would have killed themselves in the process, and everyone was well aware of that.

I'm going to insert you into my criminal with a gun analogy. You can be the police chief:

You: So what is the situation? Is there a threat?
SWAT: No Sir. The threat has been neutralized.
You: You say that there is no threat, yet it is important to "neutralize" it.  It is a contradiction in logic.
SWAT: Say what??

In terms of eliciting an emotional response to the game, DK was far different than PacMan.  But even so, "cute" is mainly a term describing visual aesthetics.  PacMan was, like most games before it,   functional with a very basic goal and mostly abstract graphics.  DK was a step in new direction, both visually and in player experience. 

Not only is that an opinion, but it is irrelevant in regard to defining a game as "cutesy" or not. Without Pac-Man there may not have been DK. Nintendo was banking on Radar Scope, which was another space-themed shooter.

[RandyT]

Video games were born in a vacuum.  They created themselves.  The Soviet Union was never a threat and the three years I spent on the nuke base in Europe was just a dream.  And nothing is as cute as a circle with wedge cut out of it.

Can we agree now?