4Ghz Core 2 Duo vs M.A.M.E. 0.120 (benchmark results)

[taz-nz]

hah, thanks taz. I was placing the order and not only can you not find the 8400 because newegg actually deactived the item, it is sold out everywhere on the net. Good luck trying to find that chip anytime soon =). well guessi will ust have to wait for a bit. thanks again.

I not sure what's deal is with Intel's 45nm CPUs, the only ones that seem to have any availablity are the E54x0 Xeons and the QX9650. We got one and only one shipment of E8400 into work almost a month ago now, and since we've only had a small shipment of E8200s, the ETA on the next shipment E8400s and the availablity of the E8500 and Q9000 series CPU is way off, and the dates keep slipping which is very strange, It normal to see storages at release of a new CPU but the gaps between shipments is normally only a week or two.

There is either a stortage due to extreme demand, which I doubt would go on for so long, or Intel is limiting stock to clear out old stock of the Q6000 & E6000 series CPUs, they can since there is nothing in AMDs range to force them to release the lastest and greatest.  Or the sticking tempature sensor issue on the E8400 is a bigger deal than Intel is willing to let on about and they are working like mad to fix it, while hopeing no one notices.

But it looks like a sit and wait game for everyone wanting a new 45nm Core 2 Duo at the moment.

[billpa]

Is the E6750 a viable alternative? I've heard some people being able to OC close to 4ghz.

[taz-nz]

Is the E6750 a viable alternative? I've heard some people being able to OC close to 4ghz.

The E6750 is great CPU, but it tops out for overclocking about 3.6-3.8ghz on good air cooling, You need to get more extreme with your cooling to get to 4.0ghz. As where the E8400 by all accounts will hit 4ghz at the drop of a hat, and there is room to go well below that with the right setup.

The went you factor in easy of overclocking, heat, power use, operating tempatures, the E8400 is the safer bet if you overclocking.

[lanman31337]

Dead on with the performance with 64 bit os + 64 bit mame.  I was able to finally get vista/xp to dual boot, and there's definitely a lot of speed increase, especially on CHD's. 

[rdenis]

Okay I have my Quad 6600 at 3.45Ghz stable (Prime95, OCCT V2.0 RC2, Memtest 86+).  I know some people here have been less than impressed with its performance but now that I've tweaked the overclocking I think its worth a revisit for information purposes.

But I have no idea how to benchmark so if someone could kindly point the way I am more than willing to spend the time and post some results.

Here is my setup:

Quad 6600 (G0 stepping) 9x384 = 3.45 Ghz
OCZ 4 GB DDR2-800 o/c to 920Mhz (6:5 divider)
Asus Maximus Formula Bios Settings:
  Vcore - 1.424 under load with Vdroop pencil mod
  Dram - 2.0 (board overvolts 0.08 to 0.10 so actual is 2.08-2.10)
  Spectrums disabled
  All other settings Auto
Arctic Pro 7 Cooling (Cores at 67,67,62,62 at 100% load stress test - 33,33,32,32 idle)
eVga GTS8800 512mb (o/c to 770/1923/1080)
Vista 64 Home Premium edition

3dMark 06 - 15,347

I think the system should put out some decent results now.

In addition to how do I benchmark, what 64 bit version of Mame should I compile to run the tests?

Rich

[divemaster127]

I have 2 q6600 & 3.45 was also the best I could overclock with the coolers I am using
dm

[rdenis]

I haven't tried going higher yet but I know some guys are claiming to have got the quads stable at 3.8 on air - I don't think I believe it.

[rdenis]

DM - did you run the benchmarks at 3.45 - how did they compare?

Rich

[divemaster127]

I'm not using either of these computers for mame, I have a dual core e6850 in my mame system
dm

[u_rebelscum]

But I have no idea how to benchmark so if someone could kindly point the way I am more than willing to spend the time and post some results.
...
In addition to how do I benchmark, what 64 bit version of Mame should I compile to run the tests?

Look at Taz's first post in this thread to see what settings he's using.  I'm not sure how others are setting up (search for "seconds_to_run" or "-str" in this thread for examples), but other standard ways can be found at mamebenchmark (about what Taz is using AFAICT) and mameui sites.  The problem with MameBenchmark is -video ddraw; the default is now d3d and most (non-aarcade monitor cabs) people use it now.  MameUI's settings have -video none, which is rarely used too.

[MBaran]

If the 2nd core is only accountable for ~5% increase, could a P4 or Pentium D at 3.2 - 4ghz, not provide the same results,within the 5%?

[u_rebelscum]

If the 2nd core is only accountable for ~5% increase, could a P4 or Pentium D at 3.2 - 4ghz, not provide the same results,within the 5%?

No, one core of the Core^TM2 is about twice as powerful as one core on a P4, as far as mame.  IOW, you'd need a 8Ghz P4 to match a 4Ghz C2, solo or duo.

Ghz is like RPMs is to a car:  a higher max RPM engine only means a faster 0-60 if the engines are the same otherwise.  And the Core^TM2 engine has twice the horsepower and torque per RPM as a P4.


BTW, I hate intel's generic brand "Core^TM".  Especially in topics like this where one vs two core & pentium or athlon vs Core^TM are discussed.

[taz-nz]

If the 2nd core is only accountable for ~5% increase, could a P4 or Pentium D at 3.2 - 4ghz, not provide the same results,within the 5%?

No, the Pentium 4 and Pentium D and based on the "Netburst" architecture, the Core 2 Duo is based the "Core" architecture, the core architecture does almost double the work per clock than the Netburst architecture.  Because of this a Pentuim 4 would need to be clocked at around 4.5ghz to match the preformance of a Core 2 duo at 2ghz.

The Netburst architecture behind the P4 was a bit of a failure, It was slower than the P3 architecture at same clock speed at launch, didn't become competitive until the P4c 800fsb HT version lauched with the 865 chipset, the large cache of prescott P4s was nothing more than a band aid fix to a failing CPU design. The Pentium D was a rubbish CPU up and down, from day one it was total out classed by the Athlon64 X2, The Pentium D has hot, power huggry, noisy, and expensive, all things the Athlon X2 was not, and the Athlon X2 was faster in 95% of tasks, how Intel managed to sell so many Pentium D cpus is beyond me.

The Core 2 Duo is the only CPU currently able to jump the MAME preformance gap.

[Dmod]

The E8400 OEM's are back in stock and I plan on ordering and overclocking a machine based on Taz's recommendations.  I don't currently have a case.  Can someone make a recommendation here on what features I should look for?

[taz-nz]

The E8400 OEM's are back in stock and I plan on ordering and overclocking a machine based on Taz's recommendations.  I don't currently have a case.  Can someone make a recommendation here on what features I should look for?

The Coolermaster Centurion 5 is a good option and can be had fairly cheap, there is a version that comes with a 460w power suplly that is passable for the kind of hardware your likely to have in a MAME box.

There are plenty of other good cases out there, anything with good front to back airflow will do, avoid cases with doors, solid face plates, or that have dozens of fans pointed in random directions.

[xmenxmen]

The E8400 OEM's are back in stock and I plan on ordering and overclocking a machine based on Taz's recommendations.  I don't currently have a case.  Can someone make a recommendation here on what features I should look for?

The Coolermaster Centurion 5 is a good option and can be had fairly cheap, there is a version that comes with a 460w power suplly that is passable for the kind of hardware your likely to have in a MAME box.

There are plenty of other good cases out there, anything with good front to back airflow will do, avoid cases with doors, solid face plates, or that have dozens of fans pointed in random directions.

another choice if any available locally:  Feature:  Cheap and 500W
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8329864&st=Dynex+-+ATX+Mid-Tower&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1175388730209

Decent cooling too with the 92 front and 120mm fan in the rear.

[MBaran]

new question then 

Fry's has a combo deal on an E6550 and motherboard.

I have a 6600/gigabyte in my desktop computer. I was gonna throw the 6550 on my desktop and use the 6600 (they clock better)

Is a 6600 at 3.4ish going to be powerful enough for jumping the gap anyways.. or am I wasting my time overclocking it since its not at the 4ghz mark anyways and probably wont do the blitz type stuff anyways.. should I just leave the 6550 at stock speeds.

The combo is 149.99 so its a pretty solid deal and helps keep it on a slight budget.

Thx!

[taz-nz]

new question then 

Fry's has a combo deal on an E6550 and motherboard.

I have a 6600/gigabyte in my desktop computer. I was gonna throw the 6550 on my desktop and use the 6600 (they clock better)

Is a 6600 at 3.4ish going to be powerful enough for jumping the gap anyways.. or am I wasting my time overclocking it since its not at the 4ghz mark anyways and probably wont do the blitz type stuff anyways.. should I just leave the 6550 at stock speeds.

The combo is 149.99 so its a pretty solid deal and helps keep it on a slight budget.

Thx!

3.4ghz will get you in the ball park, but you will still have issues with some of the most demanding ROMs. I'd give it a try, with the right cooling and a little luck you may be able to get it to 3.6ghz, every little bit helps.

[Dmod]

3.4ghz will get you in the ball park, but you will still have issues with some of the most demanding ROMs. I'd give it a try, with the right cooling and a little luck you may be able to get it to 3.6ghz, every little bit helps.

Here's a related question...

Any idea what Intel's plans are for later this year?  Are dual core processors in 40nm expected to exceed 3GHz or is this the limit of the technology? 

I'm still trying to decide if I should jump on the E8400 or wait until later in the year.  Seems like the E8400 at 4GHz is just about working at the threshold where the late 90s driving games become playable.

[taz-nz]

Any idea what Intel's plans are for later this year?  Are dual core processors in 40nm expected to exceed 3GHz or is this the limit of the technology? 

I'm still trying to decide if I should jump on the E8400 or wait until later in the year.  Seems like the E8400 at 4GHz is just about working at the threshold where the late 90s driving games become playable.

There are atleast four more 45nm dual core CPUs in the pipe line from Intel, all are due out sometime in May, but since Intel isn't doing such a great job of supplying the World with the current batch of 45nm CPUs, I'd expect them to miss that date. The new models are the E7200, E7300, E8300, E8600. The E7000 series is basically a 45nm Wolfdale core version of the E4000 series, having half the cache of the E8000 series, and a lower 1066FSB.

Probably of the most interest to MAME users are the E7300 @ 2.67ghz with a 1066FSB and the E8600 @ 3.33 with a 1333FSB, what makes them interesting is they both have 10x multipliers, which means in theory you can hit 4ghz with these CPUs with only a 400mhz FSB & DDR2-800, which means you will be able to use cheap ram as it will be running at stock speeds, and no need for extreme FSB speeds and thus reduction in the amount of stress put of the motherboard chipset, so you don't have to worry about cooking it along side your CPU.

Only time will tell how well these new models will overclock, but E7300 might end up being the CPU of choice for MAME users, as it should be a lot cheaper than the E8400 and less cache equals less power use and less heat production, which means it should be a great overclocker, but we will have to wait and see.

Early previews look good though.

[Dmod]

Great info. Think I might wait a bit. 

Thanks Taz.   

[styxx]

I there Taz, looking for some help in upgrading my MAME cabinet.
I'll upgrade to a C2D or CQuad, but I've an AGP ArcadeVGA, which is a downall as i have to stick to AGP motherboards. The one that best suites my needs is this one http://www.asrock.com/mb/cpu.asp?Model=4CoreDual-SATA2%20R2.0
From the list, which Processor would you recommend, apart form the xtrm ones ($$$ $$$). The other downfall is a maximum 667 MHz DDR2 . How far can i go OC wise?

 

[Vash]

I'm a ways off from purchasing the computer for my cab (a month or so), but I was wondering how Soulcalibur was running with your setup.

[taz-nz]

I there Taz, looking for some help in upgrading my MAME cabinet.
I'll upgrade to a C2D or CQuad, but I've an AGP ArcadeVGA, which is a downall as i have to stick to AGP motherboards. The one that best suites my needs is this one http://www.asrock.com/mb/cpu.asp?Model=4CoreDual-SATA2%20R2.0
From the list, which Processor would you recommend, apart form the xtrm ones ($$$ $$$). The other downfall is a maximum 667 MHz DDR2 . How far can i go OC wise?

 

I'm busy moving house so the short answer is forget it, just sell the AGP ArcadeVGA I'm sure someone here will pay you a far price for it. The Asrock board is going to limit your options no end, Asrock is the last brand I'd recommend anyone use, and  the via chipset just isn't going to overclock well. Cut your losses and do it right the first time, it will save you money in the long run.

I'm a ways off from purchasing the computer for my cab (a month or so), but I was wondering how Soulcalibur was running with your setup.

Soulcalibur is not a working rom at this time, major graphics issues. but it runs at 180% in 32bit mame currently dipping to 165% when the characters are visable, should be plenty playable once emulation is complete with an overclocked core 2 duo.

[Jdurg]

In addition, you get no benefit from having a QuadCore CPU in MAME.  By the time any benefit would even conceivably be possible, the speed of your CPU would be quite obsolete anyway.  I would suggest saving the money and getting a good overclockable DualCore CPU.  Besides, overclocking a DualCore CPU should be easier than a Quad.  (Fewer cores to have to rely on overclocking well).

[lanman31337]

Some of the ASRock boards overclock like a champ.  My old 939 board would overclock like no other, and was rock solid stable too. 

[massive88]

Just thought Id post my results as I just built a new Core 2 Duo computer.

I only ran a few games, in a very small sample.  And while I snagged my arguments from http://benchmark.mameworld.net/ once I had started I realized I should have used a longer sample time.  Blitz 2k for instance, never gets to the actual gameplay.  Oh well.  So take these numbers for what they are worth, at the very least, a comparative example between OS's and clock speeds.

All binaries were the official binaries.  Settings were:
mame -noautoframeskip -frameskip 0 -seconds_to_run 100 -nothrottle -nosleep -video ddraw -skip_gameinfo -effect none -nowaitvsync -noreadconfig -mt ROMNAME

I also saw about 5% increase due to multithreading across the board as mentioned earlier in this thread.

Old PC - Athlon XP 1700 - mame.exe
Killer Instinct 2 - 84.6%
Cruisin USA - 83.9%
Gauntlet Dark Legacy - 24.0%
Blitzk 2k - 25.3%
Gradius 4 - 17.9%

New PC in 32bit XP - 2.66ghz - mame.exe:
Killer Instinct 2 - 352.9%
Cruisin USA - 149.3%
Gauntlet Dark Legacy - 86.4%
Blitz 2k - 100.9%
Gradius 4 - 74.3%

New PC in 32bit XP - 2.66ghz - mamepp.exe:
Basically the same as mame.exe

New PC in 32bit Vista - 2.66ghz - mame.exe:
Basically the same as XP.

New PC in 64bit Vista - 2.66ghz - mame.exe:
Basically the same as 32bit.

New PC in 64bit Vista - 2.66ghz - vmame64.exe:
Killer Instinct 2 - 430.5%
Cruisin USA - 175.3%
Gauntlet Dark Legacy - 97.8%
Blitz 2k - 126.4%
Gradius 4 - 49.2%

Overclocked PC in 64bit Vista - 3.33ghz - vmame64.exe:
Killer Instinct 2 - 538.1%
Cruisin USA - 217.8%
Gauntlet Dark Legacy - 119.1%
Blitz 2k - 157.3%
Gradius 4 - 61.9%

Gradius is much slower in the 64 bit binary, but the other 4 games I tested saw anywhere from 5-20% speed increase, just by going 64 bit.  So my assertion if you get a core 2 duo, get a 64 bit OS, and get rockin.

[Jdurg]

Nice results.  With Blitz, I wouldn't be too concerned.  The demo, if run long enough, gets into some gameplay and that does tax your system.  I would think at that speed that you'd be good to go.  I have a 2.50 Penryn Core2Duo in my laptop, and Blitz is fully playable but with sound hiccups in the middle of gameplay. 

MK4 is another good one to test on, but from what I get out of my system I'm pretty certain yours would run just fine.  (Hopefully Aaron gets the 'bug' to continue working on that driver.  It's about 75% "playable".    )

[massive88]

Yeah, I just really wished to illustrate my results of going from good old XP to 64 bit vista and the 64 bit binary on a Core 2, to add my results into the "64 bit is king" arena.  That was a major jump for just changing binaries.

Now if only I can get Mamewah working under Vista...

[styxx]

I'm busy moving house so the short answer is forget it, just sell the AGP ArcadeVGA I'm sure someone here will pay you a far price for it. The Asrock board is going to limit your options no end, Asrock is the last brand I'd recommend anyone use, and  the via chipset just isn't going to overclock well. Cut your losses and do it right the first time, it will save you money in the long run.

I think you're right, and after some research I decided to go for this option:

Motherboard Gigabyte GA-P35C-DS3R P35 S775

Intel CORE 2 DUO E8400 3.00GHZ FSB1333 6MB

Corsair Dual Channel 2GB PC8500 DDR2 Dominator 1066

Asus Ati Radeon x600 - Modded with Soft15Khz(I love this Tool)

I' ll get the components in a week or two, afterwards I'll post some results...

As I'm not an expert overclocker I don't know how far can I go, but hopefully I won't blow up the hole thing, my real concern is the fact that it will all go inside my MAME cabinet.
Looks like the back door has to go

 

[illtww]

Anywhere to download an already compiled mame64 for the core2duo cpus?  I am running vista 64bit and would like to try out the mame64.exe but cannont locate one anywhere. 

I am running a core 2 duo (e2160) @ 3.2
1.5 gig ram
Radeon hd2600pro
Vista Services Disabled that are NOT needed

I believe I should have enough horespower to run almost any game..
I am looking at game-ex as my front end.















/

[Farb]

I just put together a Core 2 Duo E8400 (3 Ghz) machine with a Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L, Arcade VGA 2 and 2Gb of DDR2-667 memory.

I ran a few benchmarks with the following command-line used above:

mame -noautoframeskip -frameskip 0 -seconds_to_run 100 -nothrottle -nosleep -video ddraw -skip_gameinfo -effect none -nowaitvsync -noreadconfig -mt ROMNAME

Here are some numbers:

Cruisin' USA - 167%
Gauntlet: Dark Legacy - 101.77%
Blitz 2k - 109.66%
Blitz - 92.00%
Killer Instinct 2 - 413.02%
Gradius 4 - 82.36%

->Dan

[Jox43w]

Wow this is the best thread relating to mame hardware ever! The benchmarking  is such a awsome idea.ok well im not worried about playing the 3d games but i want to be able to run all the neogeo titles,mortal kombat up to 3 , killerinstint 1 and 2 and also sf third strike will a e2220 2.4ghz duelcore 1mb cache run them in a 32bit build?

[massive88]

Wow this is the best thread relating to mame hardware ever! The benchmarking  is such a awsome idea.ok well im not worried about playing the 3d games but i want to be able to run all the neogeo titles,mortal kombat up to 3 , killerinstint 1 and 2 and also sf third strike will a e2220 2.4ghz duelcore 1mb cache run them in a 32bit build?

Without a doubt.  The most taxing game in that list is probably KI2, which I was running at around 430% with a 2.666ghz Core 2 Duo, so I would expect you should run it at 387%

To be "playable" you want to be able to hit 120% roughly, so you should be able to hit those games without question.

[Jox43w]

Sweet! After reading this thread properly start to finish im considering going for the e8400 now if i do go for it the best mobo i can afford will be the gigabyte ga-p31-ds3l my friend has this mobo and it overclocked his e6750 to 3.6ghz will it be up to the job of doing a e8400 to 4ghz. Also isit posible to save more than 1 set of settings in the bios as i dont plan on overclocking 24/7 and dont want to manuly configure it every time i want an oc.

[Tiger-Heli]

Also isit posible to save more than 1 set of settings in the bios as i dont plan on overclocking 24/7 and dont want to manuly configure it every time i want an oc.

From TheManuel on the bottom of Page 3 of the thread:

Finally, to extend the life of the processor, I set my power scheme to laptop/portable so that EIST kicks in and the CPU multiplier is knocked down to 6X form 9X while the computer is idle or doing light duty like browsing the web or playing pacman :-) but immediately goes to full throttle when more processing power is required.  As a result, my 2.7GHz is running at 1.8GHz most of the time which happens to be the stock speed.

[styxx]

Sweet! After reading this thread properly start to finish im considering going for the e8400 now if i do go for it the best mobo i can afford will be the gigabyte ga-p31-ds3l my friend has this mobo and it overclocked his e6750 to 3.6ghz will it be up to the job of doing a e8400 to 4ghz.

As Taz mentioned earlier on this thread, the P35 chipset is one of the best out there, I think for a little more money you should get a P35 Mobo. I'll get the Gigabyte GA-EP35C-DS3R it has improved OC capabilities, and supports DDR II and DDR III  The P35 is widely considered one of the best Chipsets to OC, at least until P45 comes out.
As for the OC capabilities of the E8400, just take a look at this snapshot i got from an OC forum, it speaks for it self...

5,62 Ghz...
This guy runs this E8400 at 4ghz stable with Vcore 1,29 V which is very good.
From what I've been seeing in other forums, with the right config you can run this baby's at 4,5 Ghz and UP stable on air cooling.

Speaking of right config... a major issue in getting a good OC is the stepping of the processor. The one mentioned above is  a Q750A196, Q808A476 are also great. Avoid the Q809A... ones

 

[John IV [MameUI64]]

New batch of benchmarks for .125.4 on various C2D's Conroe and Wolfdale + some sad AMDs.
I'll be dropping in an E8400 shortly to my workforce 3.5Ghz E6400 to last me till Nehalem and will post some new benches then.

http://mameui.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Bench.htm

[taz-nz]

New batch of benchmarks for .125.4 on various C2D's Conroe and Wolfdale + some sad AMDs.
I'll be dropping in an E8400 shortly to my workforce 3.5Ghz E6400 to last me till Nehalem and will post some new benches then.

http://mameui.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Bench.htm

Yeah I  ran a few benchmarks the other day to see what the new changes to compiler made, running in Gradius4 in 64bit 125.4 looks all good  ,but 125.5 is a case of what the dev's can give they can take away.

with my normal setting and my CPU at 4ghz in vista 64bit SP1:

125.4 Gradius4            129.31%
125.5 Gradius4             74.21% 

I thought for a minute I'd got my 64bit and 32bit benchmark numbers mixed up, but no in 125.4 gradius4 take a boost in 64bit and drop in 32bit, in 125.5 64bit is back to it's old ways and 32bit is back on top. 

[John IV [MameUI64]]

Aaron had left some debugging code in there in .125.5 so you'll see bad performance.. and also giant *.asm files generated in the .exe root. FYI.  Should be fixed in u6.