New Product: Micro-Leaf™ Arcade Pushbutton Switches - GroovyGameGear

[patrickl]

Looks like the SN10-QACF from Vabsco. 

Yeah, but then with a piece of plastic stuck to it so can be placed in a button.

I guess I created a "micro leaf" joystick already for my PocketGalaga

[RandyT]

Looks like the SN10-QACF from Vabsco. 

Yeah, but then with a piece of plastic stuck to it so can be placed in a button.

You are aware that the leaf switch adapters are also a switch "with a piece of plastic stuck to it so can be placed in a button", yes?  It's only because these have dried up and I have been asked numerous times about them that I spent the money and effort on this project.  No one is making either of you switch your buttons or threatening your world in any way.  Why react so vehemently to a new option being presented to folks who might, unlike yourselves, appreciate being given the option?

I guess I created a "micro leaf" joystick already for my PocketGalaga

I'd say you created a nail with two switches nailed next to it.  See how that works? 

FWIW, I just spent $6000 on a laser cutting machine just so I could offer these types of things to the community.  It will be a long time before I see that returned, if ever, so that probably makes me foolish.  Be happy there are people foolish enough to keep spending the money and time to do these types of things that you don't think need to be done.

RandyT

[fixedpigs]

I also want to point out that the Micro-Leafs do still make a very subtle click, but not appreciably louder than the sound of two leaf switch contacts hitting together.  The difference between these and a standard microswitch is huge in that regard.

RandyT

is it quieter than the sound of a mouse click...?

keep up the good work randy...

[RandyT]

Randy, yeah yeah, supply & demand... 
"and to account for different panel thicknesses"  Not really, leaf buttons do this.  There are long and short buttons.  Shorts for metal panels, longs for wood.  I'm just throwing the idea out there, I don't expect something like this to happen because there just isn't the demand for it. 

I was thinking along the lines of the home builders.  There is no set standard for panel thickness in this group.  Too many different materials, coverings, etc.  But I'll still think about it and see if there's a simple to build solution.

This brings up a question, Randy, did you do any stress testing like repeating button machine for 10 minutes

Heh.  I played a bunch of games over a couple of weeks and probably have more like hours on them.  Earlier I mentioned sourcing.  I have confirmation from the manufacturer's rep that these specific switches have 1,000,000 mechanical cycle ratings, just like regular microswitches do.  If they didn't I would have kept looking for another supplier.  I could have sourced cheaper switches from China, but they could not give me the 1,000,000 mechanical cycle rating I required.  Some seem to think these things are all created equal, but they most definitely are not!

Since the tabs go straight down it looks like it might require a slightly deeper control panel (have to account for the wire and female connector).  Would taking a needle nose and bending the tabs to the left (in that pic) be bad?  That way quick connects can be taken on and off from the side easily in shallow panels (like cocktails).

Yes, they do extend downwards, so if you have a very shallow panel, some adjustment would need to be made.  More often, lateral space is at a premium so the vertical pins can be a blessing.  But I think you could even go as far as clipping the unused NC pin and bending the pins as you like, as long as it's only once. 

is it quieter than the sound of a mouse click...?

Much quieter than the 4 different mice I just compared them to here.

RandyT

[whammoed]

Be happy there are people foolish enough to keep spending the money and time to do these types of things that you don't think need to be done.

RandyT

I appreciate it Randy!  In fact sometimes I resemble that remark.  These may or may not be on par with the good old leaf switch button...I have no idea..., but I'd bet money its better than a regualar microswitch.  I'm already stocked on leaf buttons and switches but I will probably get one of these to play with on my next order.

Just let me know when you've made my perfect joystic eh?: 8way/4way restrictor switchable by solenoid or other electric means with a balltop and a fire button on the front of the balltop (think Tron cocktail) 

[Tiger-Heli]

Awesome idea Randy!!!

Question: A while back 1Up posted a suggestion of removing the springs from standard microswitches to make the actuation easier and faster.  I tried that and liked it.  Have you tried that with these?  And if so, does it help, or do these really need the springs back, or is it a personal preference type thing?

Again, thanks for all your hard work in support of our collective hobby!!!

[BobA]

Idea is great Randy.  I only wish I had known so I could have ordered some with my marquee led light.

IMO it is amazing how many criticize or try to second guess a new product without even spending the few bucks to try one out.  An objective review is worthwhile and appreciated all.  S**TKicking from the sidelines is not.

Thanks for all your great stuff Randy.

[Level42]

Idea is great Randy.  I only wish I had known so I could have ordered some with my marquee led light.

IMO it is amazing how many criticize or try to second guess a new product without even spending the few bucks to try one out.  An objective review is worthwhile and appreciated all.  SH1TKicking from the sidelines is not.

Thanks for all your great stuff Randy.

The LED light is also a standard product adapted for us. It's at a very good price too. I don't care....I will be ordering one of those sooner or later
It's the same with the guy making a small PCB with 2 LED's on it and a connector...of course I can make that myself, but some people are less handy or want a "neat" solution....

I think we should be grateful to see Andy and Randy offering innovation on arcade game related products.

I guess that 6000 dollar laser cutter will not be used only for this product......

The only problem I have is that it is called Micro Leaf when, in fact, it's not actualy a leaf. 

[markrvp]

The only problem I have is that it is called Micro Leaf when, in fact, it's not actualy a leaf. 

I believe the metal actuator is called a leaf.  There is only one, as opposed to a traditional "leaf switch" which has contacts on two separate leafs which complete a circuit when they connect.  In this case, a leaf is used to activate a switch and complete the contact.  It's all about leverage.

[Tiger-Heli]

You could also make a valid argument that the product uses a microswitch (or microswitch mounting style) to mimic the "feel" of a leafswitch - hence Micro-Leaf ...

[Stobe]

Randy,

Despite the words and actions of a very few here, we do very much appreciate all that you do for the hobby.

I've been ordering stuff from you since you had a 1 page website , and I've never been disappointed.

As far as reliability?  I'm pretty certain I would never get 1,000,000 button clicks on one of these before you come out with a newer product that I'd replace it with 

-Stobe

[kowal]

Metal Slug 1 - 10.000 shots to to finish game
1.000.000 = 100x 1CC
this is not a lot of.

cherry have 10.000.000
honywell 30.000.000
omron 50.000.000

[RandyT]

Thanks for the words of support.

Question: A while back 1Up posted a suggestion of removing the springs from standard microswitches to make the actuation easier and faster.  I tried that and liked it.  Have you tried that with these?  And if so, does it help, or do these really need the springs back, or is it a personal preference type thing?

That's actually something I have suggested quite often as well.  But in this case, I don't recommend it.  The feel would be the same as relying on only a leaf switch and no spring.  Not a strong enough return.

Metal Slug 1 - 10.000 shots to to finish game
1.000.000 = 100x 1CC
this is not a lot of.

cherry have 10.000.000
honywell 30.000.000
omron 50.000.000

Finishing Metal Slug 100 times before you destroyed a switch seems like an awful long time to me.  How many hours of constant use to you suppose that equates to? 

I have seen these "ratings" crawl upward over the years and it's not due to increases in quality.  It's marketing.  Who is counting every click of a $1.00 button, and when called on it, what manufacturer will have a problem replacing a "faulty" switch that costs them 5 cents in parts to produce?  But the numbers sure look impressive when compared to their competition.  The issue is made even worse when some independent distributors start assigning their own numbers that are based on nothing.

All switches fail eventually, and if you have been paying any attention to some of the posts in forums like these, you'd see that Cherry switches usually don't see anything near that longevity.

I also think you are using questionable sources for at least one of your ratings.  Please tell me where, either on the Cherry website, or in this document, it states that the series of switches used in pushbuttons (K-Series) have that longevity.  Otherwise, please do proper research to avoid posting incorrect information that might adversely affect others.

RandyT

[xmenxmen]

I will be ordering some soon.  They will be replacing the 1st button switch on each player.  Now I can say I can get even closer to the arcade feel.  Thanks for yet another great product.

[ahofle]

Awesome work Randy.   

[Stobe]

Metal Slug 1 - 10.000 shots to to finish game
1.000.000 = 100x 1CC
this is not a lot of.

For sake of argument, how many quarters have you just dropped into that machine inorder to cause Randy's button switch to fail?  (100 minimum).

[kowal]

10.000.000 this official HAPP information

honywell 30.000.000

1.000.000 has sanwa (OBSF) and seimitsu - this little. professional shmup splayers in japan alter buttons what 3-4 months. they play 4-6/24h. nobody with us plays so many but this shows that 1.000.000 this is little. special sanwa series RG has 5.000.000 (Teaito Egret panels)

manufacturers pass minimum value. 1.000.000 does not inform that button will get lost after 1.000.000. 100% keeps more (if you play on hand no leg)

[RandyT]

10.000.000 this official HAPP information

See part above about distributor ratings and marketing.  For real specifications, look to the manufacturer, not the distributor / retailer.  But for fun, let's do some math on that claim.  If a machine was set up to perform 5-cycles per second (which is about as fast as a human can possibly cycle one of those switches, so it's a good "control" for the test) that test would take 2,000,000 seconds to perform.  That's over 23 days, running 5 times a second for 24 hours a day.   Does anyone here, based on their experience with pushbutton microswitches, believe that this switch would survive a week at that pace, let alone over 3? 

On the Cherry website, I see 1,000,000 mechanical cycle ratings only on specific models (not the K-Series used in pushbuttons) and 4,000,000 on expensive industrial switches.  If you think you're going to get an average of 10,000,000 cycles out of a $1.00 switch, you have problems counting zeros.  But that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

honywell 30.000.000

Here's the Honeywell datasheet for that exact switch.  You'll not find a number like the one you quoted anywhere in it.

RandyT

[kowal]

durability be counted on 1.000.000 pressing. 1 pressing on second. 1 minute -60 seconds. 60 minutes - 1h. 277,7h playing. 3h/24h  = 90 days

this agrees with fact of change of arcade panels in japan what 3-6 months

different firms which are they produce microswitches: SAIA, Honywell, OMRON, Mastushita, MicroYamatace and all may >10.000.000 what easily above:P you do not believe? sorry your problem

[More Cowbell]

Well I was going to buy some of these micro-leafs from you Randy but Kowal has a valid point. I myslef am a professional Japanese shmups player much like most of the rest of this board and I WILL NOT invest $2.75 on a switch that will only last me 90 days. Good day to you, sir. 

[Level42]

All switches fail eventually,....

26 years of service.

Over 62.000 games on the counter.

Still as smooth as a baby's bottom...

[Chris]

Personally I love the idea of being able to drop in replacement switches to give me a more sensitive leaf-like action without having to redesign my panel for leaf holders or create adaptors for microswitches with actuators.  My order is in!

If you don't like them, think leafs are better, think you are such a hardcore player that one million cycles isn't enough for you, I have a groundbreaking solution: DON'T BUY THEM.  Randy, I'm glad you're putting these things out for the rest of us!

[Kremmit]

Well I was going to buy some of these micro-leafs from you Randy but Kowal has a valid point. I myslef am a professional Japanese shmups player much like most of the rest of this board and I WILL NOT invest $2.75 on a switch that will only last me 90 days. Good day to you, sir. 

pwnt

[Level42]

Just wanted to say that I didn't mean to criticize the Micro-Leaf with my last post with that old Galaxian leaf (and yes that is the one for the fire button ). I just find it's funny that leaf switches never come with a "10.000.000" cycle mention....

I agree with Randy about those numbers. Even if you do run them out (I've never run out a microswitch on any other device, like computer mice) but even if you do.......that couple of bucks that it cost shouldn't be something to get annoyed over.... there are also other (more important) specs on microswitches like spring tension, sound etc.

I think the Micro-Leaf is offering another great option for us to select. In some situations I will definitely like to use them. Would be great f.i. on Nintendo joysticks (hope they'll fit). Or in situations where space is tight. I personally always try to steer away from regular microswtiches as I hate them. This is great as an alternative where normal leafs can't be (easily) used. I mentioned it jokingly before, but would it be possible to get Ultra-micro-leaf switches that fit inside the Star Wars yoke handle ?

[squirrellydw]

Why are so many people idiots??  I guess everyone that is criticizing these switches don't like to have a choice in anything.

Nice job randy, keep up the great work.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I don't use switches on my CP at all. I just scream at the attract mode, and pretend I'm winning!

[zaphod]

Great work again, Randy!  Thanks.  I'll be using one of these at least in the button by my four-way.  Looks like it'd help my score, and body, during Galaga sessions.

[destructor]

Hm...I see this switch is mounted with some angle in button. It is not good because you will feel differrence when you press button in different points. On left side feel will be hard on right side it will be ... (?) If you play on games where you must shoot often, you newer press button in center, always on edge of button.

[RandyT]

Hm...I see this switch is mounted with some angle in button. It is not good because you will feel differrence when you press button in different points. On left side feel will be hard on right side it will be ... (?) If you play on games where you must shoot often, you newer press button in center, always on edge of button.

If you can't feel the switch beyond the tension of the button's internal spring, are you going to not feel it less on the other side of the button?

It always helps to read the product description and discussion, or maybe even do some real experimentation with the part,  before trying to play engineer.

RandyT

[destructor]

Hm...I see this switch is mounted with some angle in button. It is not good because you will feel differrence when you press button in different points. On left side feel will be hard on right side it will be ... (?) If you play on games where you must shoot often, you newer press button in center, always on edge of button.

If you can't feel the switch beyond the tension of the button's internal spring, are you going to not feel it less on the other side of the button?

For return button's plunger to 'top position' is required not strenght from spring only but from switch too. Otherwise this must be tested as you say.

PS. When I saw first time your TT2 spinner I say HURRA! but this product looks strange

[Chris]

Hm...I see this switch is mounted with some angle in button. It is not good because you will feel differrence when you press button in different points. On left side feel will be hard on right side it will be ... (?) If you play on games where you must shoot often, you newer press button in center, always on edge of button.

A regular microswitch button only contacts on one side; how is this any different?

To me it looks like the angle is set to make the distance to the actuator more similar to what a leaf would be.  I'm dying to see what these new switches do for my Track and Field scores.

[RandyT]

For return button's plunger to 'top position' is required not strenght from spring only but from switch too. Otherwise this must be tested as you say.

Take the switch out of your pushbutton and see if the button returns after you push it

If the button's spring tension alone isn't enough for one's tastes, one can also stretch the spring slightly to increase the resistance as desired.

RandyT

[Level42]

I vote for some video footage (on YouTube) of the Micro-Leaf in action

[Chris]

I vote for some video footage (on YouTube) of the Micro-Leaf in action

I have some on the way, if Randy doesn't do that maybe I can arrange it.  I think Track and Field will be a good benchmark for me; I run with only one finger on one button, and I can't do it nearly as well as I used t.  Slow microswitch or just old age?  We'll soon see.

[BobA]

I have some on the way too.

[RandyT]

I think Track and Field will be a good benchmark for me; I run with only one finger on one button, and I can't do it nearly as well as I used t.  Slow microswitch or just old age?  We'll soon see.

I used to be pretty good at that game, but not so much anymore.  I just don't "twitch" like I used to.  However, I did quite well with one button in the couple of games I tried (made it to the high jump and broke a couple of records along the way.)  Better than with two, which I'm guessing is due to my co-ordination not being what it used to be.

I'm curious to see what a good player can do with these.

RandyT

[destructor]

Micro-Leaf in action

Subminiature switch with lever.
http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/54v00042x.htm
There are with levers:
http://www.essendeinki.com/subminiature_micro_switches.htm
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/submini/e_sub.htm
More?
http://www.interfacebus.com/Switch-Subminiature-Manufacturers.html

Please don't abuse word 'LEAF'. Leaf switch is when for action are required two or more metal plates, not plunger or plunger with metal plate or plunger with ....

[Level42]

I think you totally misunderstood me Destructor.

I wis simply mentioning the product that Randy/GGG named "micro-leaf" (that's what this whole thread is about, isn't it ?). If you read my earlier posting I actually mentioned that I kinda disagree with the name because of the reasons you mention.

But then again, what's in a name...

About the "in action": I would like to see some VIDEO footage. You know, a series of pictures quickly projected after each-other that gives the human eye the impression that it actually sees something moving. I want to see it "in action" that is someone pressing the lever (preferably with and without a button connected to it), so I can see/hear how it works.
 

 

[destructor]

I understand that name product can be any. For example: Super Laser Switch But it lead in people to mistake because people think that switch use laser for action where really is plunger with lever
It looks as publicity.

[Tiger-Heli]

Take the switch out of your pushbutton and see if the button returns after you push it

Nope, just sits there at the bottom, in fact I can't even push it ...

Oh wait, you weren't talking to me ...