Soft-15KHz - slim new tool for 15KHz on normal vga cards

[gaijin4life]

I'm still in the dark about how to get this running properly on the arcade monitor.  I have a TinyXP PC running a Matrox Millennium II / PCI 8MB with the last released Matrox drivers for this card.  I run Soft15khz (from a folder called Soft15k), and select the Matrox card, then hit the "install 15k" button.  At this point it's still hooked to a PC LCD.  I then load quickres and the list of available resolutions is long and strong.  I select 320x240.  I then switch the VGA connector to the one going to the JPAC in the cabinet and get a double side-by side flickering image of the 320x240 tinyxp desktop on the arcade monitor, which is a Wells-Gardener 7602.  I'm sure this is related to the refresh rate or interlace (or lack thereof), but I cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong.  Ideas?

[SailorSat]

You know you need to reboot after installing?

[gaijin4life]

Oh, sorry, yes.  There was a reboot after the Soft15k, but before the quickres.

[SailorSat]

There should be no resolution of 320x240 with Soft-15kHz.
Try switching to 640x480 first.

[gaijin4life]

I just redid this to see what was happening.

If I *don't* reboot, I get a huge list in quickres - double image when I switch over to the arcade monitor.

If I *do* reboot, I only get 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768 at various color depths in quickres.  Still a side-by side image on the arcade monitor at 16/24/32 bit 640x480.

So you're saying I need to run soft15k (once), reboot, then select 640x480x32bit in quickres and then switch the connector to the arcade monitor?  If so, I've done that but still get the side-by side half images on the WG7602 arcade monitor.

(BTW, thanks for the great help)

[SailorSat]

That more sounds like it doesn't work at all. You shouldn't be able to see anything on the LCD after the reboot.

[gaijin4life]

So the fact that I can see windows on the LCD monitor means that it's not working?  If it does work, I should get an "out of range" message, then?

If that's the case, it isn't working, then, even though the install program seems to indicate that it thinks it's installed and working.

Any ideas on what I can check/change?

The one thing that may be causing problems is that this motherboard has a built-in AGP Intel845GL video circuit.  I've disabled it, but it might be worth mentioning.  I initially tried installing Soft15khz with that, but it would only show up greyed out and was not selectable, so I disabled it and put the Matrox card in.

[SailorSat]

Hm... What driver version is "the newest"? Should be something like 5.92 or 5.94.
Do you have any other card available? (a GeForce or a Radeon?)

*EDIT*
The OnBoard Intel shouldn't interfere.

[gaijin4life]

Version is 5.33 006

Where is the 5.92 version for the PCI Millennium II?  I didn't see anything that high on Matrox's site for that card.

Edit: Nevermind.  I found 5.82.018 in their legacy section.  I'll try that now.

[SailorSat]

Hm...
http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/corpo/support/drivers/latest/home.php

Last version for the Millenium II on XP should be 5.82
http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/corpo/support/drivers/files/w2k_582.cfm

[gaijin4life]

Partial success!

I uninstalled Soft15khz, then the prior matrox driver, and installed the new matrox driver (called "final" on their site), then rebooted, then reinstalled soft15khz, then rebooted but the image was still visible on the LCD.  I had to go into matrox's monitor adjust controls and select 60 for the refresh manually then the lcd went out and soft15khz seemed to kick in.

I can SEE the windows desktop fine (well blurry, but overall okay) now on the WG7602.  However, then I try to run mame (neogeo roms on mamepp), it says the requested video mode is unavailable and Direct3D failed.  I'm running DirectX8.  Seems like I'm pretty close.

[SailorSat]

Either set Direct3D Version to 8 in MAME, or try DirectDraw.

[gaijin4life]

MAME was setting itself to version 8 automatically (at least it reported that in "-verbose" mode), so I'll give DirectDraw a shot.  Thanks for getting me this far so that the Soft15Khz is working!

[SailorSat]

Now that I think of it...
I don't think the (ancient) Millenium II does support Direct3D 8 either, so DirectDraw is the way to go.

[bent98]

Sailor can you post some additional usermodelines that you use for mame?

[SailorSat]

Err... Not really, I just use the base ones
However I got something lurking around.

We have the "Cruis'n"-Resolution (25kHz though)
modeline "512x400 25kHz 57Hz" 15,87 512 576 640 640 400 404 408 435 -hsync -vsync

[bent98]

Cool.

Hey just to test since I am limited with modelines right now on nvidia card. can you tell me what modeline would run pacman as close as possible to its orginal state. Keep in mind I am running a Bilabs 27 inch monitor in the horizontal position.


thanks sailor

Btw I havent heard back from the omega driver team yet. I know you had mentioned intel driver limit. When he responses to my email I can ask about that too. Do you want to tell me specifically what to ask about the intel driver need to be addressed?

[SailorSat]

Hey just to test since I am limited with modelines right now on nvidia card. can you tell me what modeline would run pacman as close as possible to its orginal state. Keep in mind I am running a Bilabs 27 inch monitor in the horizontal position.

Err... Is that a Multisync Monitor or just 15kHz?
In 15kHz you would use 352x288, however the game will be slowed down from 60Hz to 50Hz.
In 25kHz i would use 512x384, although you will get some borders above and below.

Its quite impossible to get close to its real state on a standard Arcade Monitor, although it COULD be possible your monitor can go up to something like 16.5kHz, and a vertical refresh of say 55 to 56Hz, however I wouldn't fool around with that as it would certainly not work with other games/resolutions.

Btw I havent heard back from the omega driver team yet. I know you had mentioned intel driver limit. When he responses to my email I can ask about that too. Do you want to tell me specifically what to ask about the intel driver need to be addressed?

Somewhere in there should be a counter running from 1 to 5, in Intel GMA drivers it references to "DTD_#" where # is the number. In the Intel Embedded drivers the same happens, although the registry key has another name.

[bent98]

27" 15~48 kHz VeriFlat™
Autosync™

CGA/EGA/VGA/SVGA/XGA Penta-Resolution
V-Freq. 47~90 Hz

those are the specs so yes I can do 16.5hz. Would you be able to give me the specifix modeline that in your option would best run pacman.

thanks again for your help sailor

[SailorSat]

Be VERY carefull I don't belive there are that many monitors that support 15kHz - 31kHz, most support only 15-16kHz, 24-25kHz, 31+kHz.

However here we have 3 modelines running 352x288 pixel resolution with real 55Hz, 57Hz or 60Hz

Code: [Select]

modeline '352x288 18,7kHz 60Hz' 8,68 352 368 408 464 288 289 292 312 -hsync -vsync
modeline '352x288 17,7kHz 57Hz' 8,25 352 368 408 464 288 289 292 312 -hsync -vsync
modeline '352x288 17,1kHz 55Hz' 7,96 352 368 408 464 288 289 292 312 -hsync -vsyncThose are way higher than 16.5kHz ("extended resolution").

Although your monitor won't blow up if it doesn't work.

[Silver]

Interesting modelines -  I've got an old NEC presentation monitor stored away that will genuinely do 15-31Khz. I'll have a test at some stage...

[Ummon]

Either set Direct3D Version to 8 in MAME, or try DirectDraw.

Ahem. gaijin HAS to use DirectDraw to properly display native resolutions. If you want to know why, gaijin, read the Ultimarc monitor faq.

Be VERY carefull I don't belive there are that many monitors that support 15kHz - 31kHz, most support only 15-16kHz, 24-25kHz, 31+kHz.

This one can. It spans something like 14.5-23khz, then jumps I think to 25-31.5, and maybe jumps again.

Interesting modelines -  I've got an old NEC presentation monitor stored away that will genuinely do 15-31Khz. I'll have a test at some stage...

Not only a good test device, but also a good project monitor. What are you using soft15 with?

[SailorSat]

Ahem. gaijin HAS to use DirectDraw to properly display native resolutions. If you want to know why, gaijin, read the Ultimarc monitor faq.

Not really... Hey COULD be using cabMAME

[Ummon]

Not really... Hey COULD be using cabMAME

I don't know what in your build would make it different regarding native res. By the way, no more error. I have a suspicion it was a virus/malware thing that required an update in software.

[bent98]

I used a low res modeline generator and I get different number sailor. How do you cacluate the ones you came up with?


Also I tried using new build of soft 15 and when I click on install user

give me 'runtime error 9' subscript out of range

I did have a usermodes.txt with

modeline '352x288 17,7kHz 57Hz' 8,25 352 368 408 464 288 289 292 312 -hsync -vsync

Once I took out usermodes.txt It let me install user. What am I doing wrong?

[gaijin4life]

So I am now operational with a frontend on MAMEPP.  THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP with Soft15khz.  The hardest part was that I wasn't sure what was supposed to happen after the Soft15khz was installed.  Once it was clear that it was installed but not working, sending me off to get a newer Matrox driver, everything fell into place.

For the record, here's the steps to get it running on a Matrox Millennium II:

1. Install Matrox drivers. Version 5.82 is the final version for XP.
2. Reboot.
3. Install Soft15khz by running the program in a writeable directory and selecting the appropriate install (15, 25, 31, USER).
4. REBOOT.
5. When XP comes back up, it should no longer be visible on the computer monitor, if you get "out of range" that's good!
6. If you got "out of range" on your computer monitor after reboot when the windows desktop should have come up, switch the connector to your arcade monitor - it should be visible as a solid image now.  If you can still see windows on your computer monitor but not the arcade monitor, you may need to tweak Matrox montior settings.  Select the custom controls and UNCHECK "simple controls".  Select 640x480x32bit 60hz.
7. Once the desktop is visible, run mame from the command line with "mame - cc" to make a configuration file mame.ini.
8. Edit the newly created mame.ini file and replace "d3d" with "dd" so Mame will use DirectDraw instead of Direct3D.

At that point everything should work!

[SailorSat]

I don't know what in your build would make it different regarding native res.

cabMAME doesn't stretch die image to full resolution as base mame does.

I used a low res modeline generator and I get different number sailor. How do you cacluate the ones you came up with?

i just used the modeline already in soft15kHz and simply pulled up the pixel clock.

Also I tried using new build of soft 15 and when I click on install user

give me 'runtime error 9' subscript out of range

i'll look into it.

[SailorSat]

sh*t... another time that stupid decimal seperators...
build 38 is up.

i didn't convert it at ONE point... nice find bent

[Silver]

sh*t... another time that stupid decimal seperators...

I used a low res modeline generator and I get different number sailor. How do you cacluate the ones you came up with?

bent98 - if you are copying and pasting modelines from soft15Khz/this thread and pasting them into an online converter you need to note the decimal seperator.

I used an online modeline calculator which comes up with an incorrect result if you plug in:

modeline '352x288 17,7kHz 57Hz' 8,25 352 368 408 464 288 289 292 312 -hsync -vsync

as it does not read the 17,7 correctly. You need to change it to 17.7 instead.

[Silver]

Interesting modelines -  I've got an old NEC presentation monitor stored away that will genuinely do 15-31Khz. I'll have a test at some stage...

Not only a good test device, but also a good project monitor. What are you using soft15 with?

It's my plan to use it as a project monitor once I build a cab (several years in the planning so far...). I've actually got 2, but both need a bit of work and one does not appear to support the full scan range (does 15-17Khz, then jumps to 28khz or so). The other appears to support everything. Sadly I keep them stored away most of the time as they are absolutely massive and ridiculously heavy!

[bent98]

I didnt get a chance to try to test build 38 but with the new build I still need to change  17,7 to 17.7 in usermodes.txt right?

[SailorSat]

I didnt get a chance to try to test build 38 but with the new build I still need to change  17,7 to 17.7 in usermodes.txt right?

Soft-15kHz will read both.

[bent98]

Sailor the modeline creation is confusing to me. Is there somewhere I could read up on it further or maybe you can shed some additonal light on the subject. Still not sure on how you came up with those values for the three test modes you told me to try out for pacman.

Secondly the issue I was having with my geforce 7950 doubleing refresh on certain resolutions. The fix was using those alternate modelines remedy the doubling.  How were the created? listed below

modeline '240x240@58,795' 4,83 240 252 276 310 240 243 246 265 -hsync -vsync (Soft 15 default)

modeline '240x240@60,436' 5,3 240 240 280 336 240 244 247 261 -hsync -vsync (nvidia geforce 7 friendly)

[SailorSat]

Read http://easymamecab.mameworld.net/html/monitor1.htm, it pretty much describes it all.

[bent98]

I just tried out build 38. It installed with no errors.
I added thismodeline '352x288 17,7kHz 57Hz' 8,25 352 368 408 464 288 289 292 312 -hsync -vsync
to the usermodes.txt file
I did also see the resolution in forceware custom resolution tab. I tried running pacman and edited the pacman.ini file to reflect 352x288@57

I didnt seem to work. I did not remove orginal modeline 352x288 custom15khz.txt.

I think you said you can have two same resolutions co-exsist.

What am I doing wrong sailor?

[SailorSat]

I did also see the resolution in forceware custom resolution tab. I tried running pacman and edited the pacman.ini file to reflect 352x288@57

I didnt seem to work. I did not remove orginal modeline 352x288 custom15khz.txt.

I think you said you can have two same resolutions co-exsist.

What am I doing wrong sailor?

Wait... I'll just take a look in my magical orb...
Don't know what you did

If you see the resolution in the forceware you should also see TWO refresh rates (57Hz and 60Hz)

[bent98]

Yes I do see two.

I then edited pacman ini and updated the resolution to all reflect the proper refresh rate 352x288@57

than ran pacman

Once I ran PACMAN it seem to run it at the default 352x288  rez. Is there something im missing?

[SailorSat]

Try running MAME with -verbose and look what it says.

[bent98]

I removed the orginal res in custom15.txt and then it tried to grab the custom rez u made.

Only thing was monitor couldnt sync to it.

o well

[Ummon]

I don't know what in your build would make it different regarding native res.

cabMAME doesn't stretch die image to full resolution as base mame does.

Um...when I select D3D on cabmame, I get a very little image.


Here's a question for you: I notice different timings of the same resolution will shift the image around the screen. Is it possible to create a timing specific to one's hardware that will minimize the amount of monitor adjustment of the image?