6 buttons REALLY necessary ???

[hedge]

Other than Street Fighter games, how many arcade games actually use more than 3 or 4 buttons?  I am leaning toward using just 4 buttons per player, sort of in a diamond shape like this.

       o
  o        o
       o

The top three buttons exactly fit my middle three fingers, and therefore would be perfect for games like Bank Panic.  The 4th button provides a little more flexibility and shouldn't get in the way.

Am I missing a lot by not going for the standard "six" buttons???  I mostly plan on playing classic games, but I may have friends over who want to play some of the newer stuff.

Any comments welcome, and needed!

[Chris]

I use the 4-button diamond, and I can play lots of games... I don't play fighters, so that wipes out most 6-button games right there...

--Chris

[Carsten Carlos]

I never played these Streetfighter genre anyway - though this might change, most of my panels will 've three or four buttons.

Its not 100% accurate (taken from my homepage, see under "statistics" if you wanna read some more), but look at the picture! Especially there are less 4-button-games then indicated.

[Jakobud]

Hmmm that is an interesting statistic.  I will have to keep that in mind for my next project.  I love SortInfo

[CthulhuLuke]

SOooo necessary, you would not believe what you're missing if you never load up Street Fighter II Turbo every once in a while.  well besides fighting games, there aren't very many games that use 6 buttons, but if you're like me, fighting games is one of the best types of games to play on a cabinet.  Well ok, besides fighters, if you plan on using an SNES emulator, having no L and R button could definitely hinder your play.  There's a lot of really good SNES games that a lot of people don't play just cause they think MAME is full of all the classics.  what about Super ghouls n Ghosts, Axelay, Super Bomberman?? ^_^ *personal favorite, although Mega Bomberman for the Genesis definitely rivals any SNES bomberman.*
    -my 2 cents
      -CthulhuLuke

[radiator]

if you don't play fighters then go with 4

i, on the other hand, am trying to decide whether or no to have 8 buttons (i'll be using my cab for everything - PSX, n64, even sticking a DC in it)

*m

[Grasshopper]

Can anyone think of any games that need more than 7 buttons?

[Kaeru the Frog]

Can anyone think of any games that need more than 7 buttons?

Mahjong games do. Has anybody made a Mahjong control panel?

[JamesMolloy]

You realistically need 7 if you want to play fighters. SNK games need the full 4 horizontal layout.

I'll be playing Virtua Fighter 4: Evo on my CP so even though it only uses 3 buttons a diamond layout is definately out.

[shmokes]

I've never seen Virtua Fighter 4: Evo

What is the layout like?

[CitznFish]

Remember this: Better to have them and not need them, then to need them and not have them.  

[paigeoliver]

Well, having them and not needing them can be a bad thing too, because they can get in the way, or needlessly confuse things. Especially if other people use your cabinets too.

Guys don't seem to have too much of a problem with this, probably because they played too many arcade games when they were younger. They just naturally KNOW to use the joystick on the left, and that the first few buttons have all the action.

However, I have noticed that a lot of women get confused with this (probably simply from lack of experience). And the more controls on the panel, the more trouble they have. Like just recently this girl Stacy tried to play my Top Gunner with one hand on the player one stick, and one hand on the player two stick. She just figured it worked that way because she watched someone play the Assault next to it, and that is how Assault works.

One thing I suggest doing is customizing your controls a bit for games that get played a lot. If you have six buttons, then set all six of them to be fire in Galaga. Set it where you have 3 jump buttons and 3 attack buttons on Final Fight, and so on. Makes things easier, and cuts down on the "This button doesn't do anything" comments.

[hedge]

Great comments.  

For those of you that play the fighter games, would the following 6 button layout be any good?  Or does it have to be 2 straight rows of 3 to even bother?


           O
O                    O
           O
O                    O

[RandyT]

Remember this: Better to have them and not need them, then to need them and not have them.  

Can I get an Amen!?

What you think you will be doing with your cab today, may be much different in the possibly near future.

If making a new CP sounds like fun to you, then live for today.  But if you want the most options possible available to you down the road, plan ahead just in case.

RandyT

[Silverwind]

Remember this: Better to have them and not need them, then to need them and not have them.  

Can I get an Amen!?

What you think you will be doing with your cab today, may be much different in the possibly near future.

If making a new CP sounds like fun to you, then live for today.  But if you want the most options possible available to you down the road, plan ahead just in case.

RandyT

That's what I figure.. only an extra couple bucks for some more buttons

[Smittydc]

If you want a large board and play fighter games, go with 6-7.  If you play the "classics", I have yet to find many games that need more than 3.  

If it's an option, leave out a few buttons and add a spinner or trackball instead.

[Thenasty]

4 Buttons - Vanguard, Defender, NEOGEO GAMES
5 Buttons -  MK, Stargate
6 Buttons - tons of Street Fighters
7 Buttons- Maybe Card Games.
More buttons up to 20 - MAJONG

[Carsten Carlos]

4 Buttons - Vanguard, Defender, NEOGEO GAMES

Damn, nearly forgot Vanguard! But Vanguard would need Diamondshape, NeoGeo all in a row...

By the way, as far as I know only NeoGeo-fighters need all 4 buttons.

[Lilwolf]

Vanguard would also work well with two joysticks...  I have to try it.... It would need an autofire hack to work...

but as cheap as buttons are... why not use them?  It would be a shame if you built a cab and spent hundreds or thousands... then found a friend whos favorite game cant be played (or you get a new favorite) because of a 2buck button.

[JamesMolloy]

        O      O      O
O
        O      O
O

Japanese cabinets generally come with this layout. Sega games in bold, SNK games along the top and the usual six for Capcom.

[Dartful Dodger]

You'll need more than 4 buttons, for non mame games.

Right now I'm spending a lot of time playing Ghost Recon with my two player 6 button each, control panel.
I use all 12 buttons, both joysticks, and the trackball.  It wouldn't be as fun to play with only 8 buttons (using both of the players).

Listen to CitznFish:

Remember this: Better to have them and not need them, then to need them and not have them.  

[AceTKK]

Of course you need at least six buttons!  What happens when a new friend finds out you have your own arcade game?  He comes over to check it out and the first question he asks is "Can it play Street Fighter 2?".  You have to explain to him (her?) that although the program supports it and it works beautifully he won't be able to try it because you didn't put in enough buttons.  At your first MAME-party I guarantee that a lot of people will want to play the fighting games.  Do you want to have to explain to them why they can't?  Just avoid the disappointment by adding the buttons, they're only .99 from Happ Controls right now.

-Ace-

[Howard_Casto]

If you do go with only four buttons, the diamond shape is a bad idea.  Many modern games are made with the assumption that the buttons are in a straight line so you can press multiple buttons at once.  The neogeo layout is much better for 4 buttons imho.  

But back to your question.  A better question is what are your system specs?  If it's a pos then don't bother as classics will be the only thing you'll wanna play on it.  If not then you should definately put 6 on it.  There are some very good fighters out there, even for people that don't like fighters.  Plus YOU may not like em, but if your friends come over at least a few of them will.  Of course if cp space is at a minimum then you can leave them off.  

[Carsten Carlos]

Of course you need at least six buttons!

Ever heard of swappable panels?  
Personally I don't like these overcrowded panels, with 6 buttons, 2 joysticks, trackball, Spinner all in one place. It just hasn't the classic look!

Of course, you must have a chance to put something with 6 buttons in, but I guess my most-used panel will feature 3 or 4 buttons.

[Sasquatch!]

       O      O      O
O
        O      O
O

Japanese cabinets generally come with this layout. Sega games in bold, SNK games along the top and the usual six for Capcom.

This is exactly the layout that I'm thinking of using for my next cab.

[Mojo2000]

If you do go with only four buttons, the diamond shape is a bad idea.  Many modern games are made with the assumption that the buttons are in a straight line so you can press multiple buttons at once.  The neogeo layout is much better for 4 buttons imho.

Speak for yourself, Howard.    Every person's hand is different; pianists are uniquely qualified to make that kind of statement. If you've ever used the inverted-T layout for PC cursor keys, you can figure out that fingers 2-3-4 can press the top three buttons of a diamond layout, and the thumb can tuck under for the occasional bottom button. (That's even slightly better than the inverted-T.) I'd rather that than use my pinky on the end.

[CthulhuLuke]

Uh oh, my field, I was a pianist for 5 years, I still play regularly, Tocato & Fugue*however you spell it, too lazy to check* in D minor, yes.... you'll understand when you hear it.   Anyways, tucking your thumb under your first- through - ring finger's a bad idea, any pianist knows that you never cross fingers, and that you use all of the fingers you can, because you'll get the most reach *aka, don't skip out on that ring finger, I know I do it a lot, and it kills me sometimes*
BUT: anyways, my point is, with the neo geo layout, if you do it like a REAL neo geo layout, you actually rest your thumb on the bottom left button.  You never use your pinky, because your index through ring finger control the 2-4 buttons.  It's much harder to see how this works on a Neo Geo arcade as it is to see on a Neo Geo arcade stick *for the console version*  That's how I have my layout setup for on my cabinet, and it works beautifully even with the extra 3 buttons, since they're actually resting under your hand.

[armad1ll0]

       O      O      O
O
        O      O
O

bad... you can't play the Neo-Geo games without laying your hand over the bottom three. Why do you want to feel those buttons there. It's confusing

O     O      O      O

       O      O      O
O

This is a better design. I have it wired so that I can use PS2 controllers in there and hook a PS2 up to my VGA Eygo 27" It also works for Dreamcast on the right 6 buttons.

I can play SoulCaliber on the bottom 4 as well.

[CthulhuLuke]

here's my layout

[nfdavenport]

I am also making this decision soon.  I am curious about the 7-button layout as I am mostly familiar with 6button fighters.  Could someone detail out what the 7 buttons do?

Thanks!

[JamesMolloy]

      O      O      O
O
        O      O
O

bad... you can't play the Neo-Geo games without laying your hand over the bottom three. Why do you want to feel those buttons there. It's confusing

O     O      O      O

       O      O      O
O

This is a better design. I have it wired so that I can use PS2 controllers in there and hook a PS2 up to my VGA Eygo 27" It also works for Dreamcast on the right 6 buttons.

I can play SoulCaliber on the bottom 4 as well.

Aha! Good point. I hadn't thought about that. I think I'll go with this then:

      O    O
O
      O    O    O
O

[Mojo2000]

Uh oh, my field, I was a pianist for 5 years, I still play regularly

I was a pianist for twenty-five, and of these a professional accompanist for ten.  


Tocato & Fugue*however you spell it, too lazy to check* in D minor, yes.... you'll understand when you hear it.

No self-respecting classical pianist would misspell that, nor conveniently forget that piece's origins at the organ.    Just joshin'...


Anyways, tucking your thumb under your first- through - ring finger's a bad idea, any pianist knows that you never cross fingers, and that you use all of the fingers you can

1. Tucking your thumb under permanently is of course a bad idea. That's why I said "occasional use." But as I also said later, every person's hand is different.
2. I don't see how tucking your thumb under contradicts the idea of using all of the fingers you can.
3. "Never cross fingers"? How fast are your scales and arpeggi without crossing fingers?  
4. See Chopin Etudes Op. 10 No. 2 and Op. 25 No. 6; Liszt Etudes "La Leggierezza" and "La Campanella"; Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 2, last page of last movement.


because you'll get the most reach *aka, don't skip out on that ring finger, I know I do it a lot, and it kills me sometimes*

When I'm playing arcade games, I want the least spread possible between buttons.    This is in stark contrast to the piano keyboard, where I am able to play a tenth and span an eleventh - and yes, that is a practical thing.


BUT: anyways, my point is, with the neo geo layout, if you do it like a REAL neo geo layout, you actually rest your thumb on the bottom left button.  (snip)

So out of curiosity, is that offset thumb button A, B, C or D? My thumb isn't as fast a repeater as my forefinger.

Having said all of this, I see that you're a vastly superior electrician, so I can't complain about anything on your webpage.  

[Tiger-Heli]

I am also making this decision soon.  I am curious about the 7-button layout as I am mostly familiar with 6button fighters.  Could someone detail out what the 7 buttons do?

Thanks!

Basically this is the idea - Lots of games used only 1, 2, or 3 buttons, but you can do this with any layout.

Street Fighter used a 3x2 matrix, like this:

1 2 3
4 5 6

Mortal Kombat Used a 5 button (or 6) like a die, like this

1      2
    3
4       5
6

However, this can be played with the layout above as:

1 3 2
4 6 5

Now, NEO-GEO games used a four-button layout as

1 2 3 4

You can't play this effectively with a Street fighter layout, so most people add an adittional button for these games as either:

1 2 3 4
4 5 6

or, more commonly (HotRod, X-Arcade):

  1 2 3
  4 5 6
3

The central idea is you are trying to support both Neo-Geo and Street Fighter controls.

[nfdavenport]

Tiger-Heli: Thanks!  Exactly what I needed to know.

[armad1ll0]

Aha! Good point. I hadn't thought about that. I think I'll go with this then:

      O    O
O
      O    O    O
O

but the thing is that you have the extra button out on the right. It's better to have the extra button on the inside so that you have more space and a wider stance as much as possible. That's why I prefer the Capcom 6 on the rt side. hanaho really did their homework when they came up with this one. The X-arcade is bad cause they ahve the extra button right next to the Neo-Geo A button.

[CthulhuLuke]

 1 2 3
  4 5 6
3
The central idea is you are trying to support both Neo-Geo and Street Fighter controls.

Well here's how I have mine laid out, it changes from Neo Geo games, to Capcom games, since A is on the left most, and D is on the right most

Capcom style:
      1  2  3
   x 4  5  6

Neo Geo style:
      2  3  4
  1  x  x  x

so do you see how your hand rests on that, basically your palm is over the X's, and your thumb rests on the 1.  If you're doing cardboard mockups, try that one, see how it feels.

[StephenH]

6 Buttons are not nessecary for most 80's games.   However, it is nessecary, if you want most tournament fighting games (such as Capcom CPS-1 and CPS-2), or if you want Super NES Support.