Q*Bert Knocker writeup, correct me on parts

[SirPoonga]

Right now the q*bert knocker isn't finished as I still need a solenoid.

BUT I've been getting alot of questions about it so I'm going to do a summary.  A better writeup with pics will be on my website ONCE I get my cab done (technically, my cab will never be done:))

OK.
Two things you need, hardware and software.

Hardware:
I am hooking the knocker up to the parallel port.
Building it can be found here:
http://www.hut.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/parallel_output.html
I hooked up the relay to the 1st data pin.  That's why in software I only output "0x01", only need to output to that pin.
I'm using the safe new design half way down the page.
Someone with electronics expertise can you tell me if I need I to ground to the parallel port as in the schematic I see two grounds.  I know that isn't the best thing.  Since I am hooking up to my 5v line on my computer I should just be able to hook up to just that ground and only have one pin in use on the lpt port.
I assume I hook up the PC's 5v line to the Vcc and the ground to the ground in the schematic.


Software
gottlieb_knocker is found in "src\sndhrdw\gottlieb.c"

Here's the original function

void gottlieb_knocker(void)
{
      if (Machine->samples)
      {
            if (!strcmp(Machine->gamedrv->name,"reactor"))      /* reactor */
            {
            }
            else      /* qbert */
                  sample_start(0,44,0);

      }
}

Assuming VCMame (Visual C++ Mame) I will change too

#include <conio.h>

 ...

void gottlieb_knocker(void)
{
      if (Machine->samples)
      {
            if (!strcmp(Machine->gamedrv->name,"reactor"))      /* reactor */
            {
            }
            else
                                {      /* qbert */
                           //sample_start(0,44,0);
                                              _outp(0x378,0x01);
                                             //use _outp(0x378,0xFF); to be safe and output to all 8 pins
                                }

      }
}

A couple of things.
If you still want the sample to be played uncomment the sample line.
I'm not sure how _outp() works yet.  I don;t know it if permanently turns the knocker on or if I have to do a _outp(0x378,0x00); in there too.  Won't know until I have hardware:)  With that said the above code is untested.

I will reply here if I get the solenoid and have it working with anything new I've learned.

In my cabinet I plan on mounting a strong bord, like oak, to the interior where the solenoid hits.  I'm sure it isn;t a powerful solenoid, BUT MDF dents easily so after awhile it might hurt the cab to the poit the solenoid doesn't hit the cab.  Of course, that's only if I do mad q*berting.  Just a thought,  I might for now just hit the inside of the cab, if it becomes a problem then deal with it:)


Note: Check out the rest of that guys site, lots of electronic schematics to do cool stuff, like one people here might be interested, a vga to tv converter.
http://www.hut.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/vga2tv/vga2palntsc.html
I'm not going to try that, I'l like to though...

[Beley]

I'm using the safe new design half way down the page.
Someone with electronics expertise can you tell me if I need I to ground to the parallel port as in the schematic I see two grounds.

[SirPoonga]

But isn't the ground on the lpt port AND the ground formt he power cord going to the same ground in the computer anyway?

[1UP]

Ah, finally, the beginnings of force feedback in Mame!  As soon as I get my illuminated buttons working, my next project is to finish the driver circuit fo my T2 guns.  Dave Widel has the software halfway there, maybe once I publish the circuitry, he'll get the second gun supported!  

Now, if only someone could cleverly hook up DirectX support for all the force feedback steering wheels out there, maybe we can get a proper Outrun going!

[Billabong]

Right now the q*bert knocker isn't finished as I still need a solenoid.

A couple of things.
If you still want the sample to be played uncomment the sample line.
I'm not sure how _outp() works yet.

[SirPoonga]

OT: I'm working on trying to control a robot through the parallel port. That article was pretty helpful! Optoisolators, good idea! Also, using a second 'card' parallel port, don't want to fry my mobo!

Later,
Billabong

Hey, I have one of those somewhere.  Hmmm, I should use that...

[aramis]

Thank you!

[aramis]

Hmmm...I just spent some time thinking about this a bit more, and it looks like it would be hard to do for Win2k/XP. I found some source code for a util that allows direct port accessing in 2k/XP, but it's beyond me at this point. And, it seems like a chore to have to recompile for each release of mame (besides any possible issues of including "3rd party" source into a mame compile).

Why couldn't the src\sndhrdw\gottlieb.c file be changed so that instead of outputting to the parallel port, it flashes the Scroll Lock LED? You could then hack that to drive a relay which fires the solenoid.

It just seems (to me anyways), that flashing the KB LED would be easier (since it is in MAME already for some games, just a copy and paste of that code?). And, no worries about NT/2K/XP.

My cabinet uses XP due to the better mpeg playback w/ DAPHNE, among other reasons.

What do you think?

[Howard_Casto]

Why couldn't the src\sndhrdw\gottlieb.c file be changed so that instead of outputting to the parallel port, it flashes the Scroll Lock LED? You could then hack that to drive a relay which fires the solenoid.

It just seems (to me anyways), that flashing the KB LED would be easier (since it is in MAME already for some games, just a copy and paste of that code?). And, no worries about NT/2K/XP.

My cabinet uses XP due to the better mpeg playback w/ DAPHNE, among other reasons.

What do you think?

I agree .... someone (cough cough) mentioned this to him but he seemed to ignore me.    A cylanoid wouldn't require a huge amount of power to trigger the relay and it's much better to have to ramp up the led output via hardware than have all kinds of parallel port goofiness going on in mame.  What's even better is if you have an ipac the connection would be a simple jumper with leads runing from it, so you don't have to waste a parallel port for two pins.

[SirPoonga]

Ok, if you want the knocker to go off for any other game that uses the keyboard leds you go right ahead and hook a relay to the leds.

[SirPoonga]

Hmmm...I just spent some time thinking about this a bit more, and it looks like it would be hard to do for Win2k/XP. I found some source code for a util that allows direct port accessing in 2k/XP, but it's beyond me at this point. And, it seems like a chore to have to recompile for each release of mame (besides any possible issues of including "3rd party" source into a mame compile).

I add my own stuff ot mame every release anyway.  I get rid of those pesky ok screens and add in analogmame.  I use 98 because multiple spinners is more important to me.

You may have brought up a good point.  Not sure if I can outp() in 2k/xp...


Man, 2k/xp has some good things and bad things!!!

[Howard_Casto]

Ok, if you want the knocker to go off for any other game that uses the keyboard leds you go right ahead and hook a relay to the leds.

[tom61]

I just spent some time thinking about this a bit more, and it looks like it would be hard to do for Win2k/XP

Since all you need is just one output, you could use a serial port. You don't have to worry about tripping over the Hardware Abstraction Layer with serial.

[aramis]

Hmmm...I didn't realize NT/2K/XP let you directly access the serial port, unlike the parallel port. Might be a better way to go than the parallel port if that is the case. (And that leaves the parallel port open for my home built Dragon's Lair scoreboard and DAPHNE.   )

I still like the idea of the KB LED the best...I will try to find out which games use the Scroll Lock LED to see if a toggle switch or what-not (to disable the knocker) would even be needed. I know there are several that use the Num and Caps Lock LED's, but I believe there are even fewer that use the Scroll Lock LED.

All in all, I'm sure that if we put our heads together we can come up with a solution that is simple, elegant, and expandable...and hopefully get it into the mame source code.

[SirPoonga]

Since all you need is just one output, you could use a serial port. You don't have to worry about tripping over the Hardware Abstraction Layer with serial.

I couldn;t find schematics to hook up a relay to the serial port.  Coding is pretty much the same anyway.

[SirPoonga]

Hmmm...I didn't realize NT/2K/XP let you directly access the serial port, unlike the parallel port. Might be a better way to go than the parallel port if that is the case. (And that leaves the parallel port open for my home built Dragon's Lair scoreboard and DAPHNE.

[kf0yn]

NT/2000/XP *don't* let you access the serial port directly, but you do get a lot more control over the serial port than you do the parallel port.  You can manipulate any of the modem control signals, for example.

You can use the giveio.sys driver to enable direct port access for the parallel port, though.  It's just a bit of a hassle to install.

[Dav]

My solution is simple.

[JMDickson]

 You will probably need to leave the parallel port energized long enough for the mechanical parts to react.  A pair of port writes would be much too quick for the relay to close.
 You should setup a timer with a callback function to turn off the port after a delay.

 Serial is more fun, using it in serial mode, if you set the port to the slowest speed and wrote a 255, you might get a fast relay to close.  You could try to bit-bang the lines, but again NT/200/XP may make that a hassle.

Or you could program a microcontroller to respond to rs232 commands.  A cheap Atmel AVR with hardware rs232 port could give you 10-20 outputs and handle the hold time itself.  That would leave you a bunch of other pins to play with also! (lights, LED displays, other feedback  )

[SirPoonga]

Your solution

[SirPoonga]

OK.
There is a little bit of an arguement going on here.

[aramis]

SirPoonga,

If I said anything offensive or abrasive, I apologize.

I went from never hearing about Mame to having a working, fully hand-built Mame cabinet in less than 3 months, due to a lot of reading. A lot of the info I absorbed was from your replies to messages on the old board, and I appreciate that.

Yet, as an automation engineer, I'm constantly under the challenge to develop inexpensive, simple-yet-elegant and robust solutions to problems. I wasn't trying to start an argument...I just wanted to brainstorm that alternatives.

Anyways, back to gaming! I think I have had a total of 3 hours of sleep since getting to plug this cabinet in for the first time.  

[SirPoonga]

SirPoonga,

If I said anything offensive or abrasive, I apologize.

No no offense taken.  I just saw what possible could get out of hand.  Someone disagrees with my way,t hat;s their problem.  If they can prove it wrong, good.  All the better:)

I really need to learn a little more about electronics, I want to know more about relays, solenoids, leds, etc...

[Dav]

Have you looked at the mame source code??
Essentially you will have to write your own led function (with a

[SirPoonga]

i have considered other options.

What's a 555 timer?
As that might be something better to put in my schematic.

So you know how to do that counter thing with interrupts in mame.  I can't figure it out.  I hate low level programming or thinking at low levels.  PM me or email me with info
(@hotmail.com)

If there si a better way I'm open.  I still think the parallel port will be the easiest route programming wise.  It really makes no difference between lpt or serial.  I'm going to put in a secondary PCI card I have that has a serial and lpt on it.  Hopefully that way I dont; ruin my pc by accident.

Hey, if someone wants to help me out we could make a little thing and start ebaying the hardware:)  People could download the diff and compile mame themselves...
If ANYONE knows USB programming I'd rather do USB.  I love the idea behind USB and I LVOE jsut plugging in and go.

There then might be better ways to implement the source code.  Like using if defines and such of the hardware exists...  I need to get back in the c++ side of things.  I haven't done c++ programming in over 2 years.

[ErikRuud]

A 555 timer is a simple timer chip that can be bought almost any where.

There are a lot of ways to use 555 timers, I will try to give a simple descrition that fits this application.

They have an iput or trigger line, when they receive a pulse on the trigger line, the chip turns on its output line for a set amount of time, and then turns the line off.
The duration is determined by a resistor and a capacitor.  Different resistor/capacitor combinations give different durations from miliseconds to minutes.

555 timers can also be used to create oscillating signals, and bunch of other applications as well.

Do a search for 555 timer, and you will be able to find tones of circuits and write ups on their use.

[SirPoonga]

that might be better if a quick outp(lpt,FF) followed by a outp(lpt,00) is used.

[1UP]

We ought to get all our heads together and design a universal force feedback interface!  It could be a DIY tutorial, or maybe we could get Andy or Kelsey interested in making a new product.  It could just be a board with a few simple components, hooked to a parallel port, with terminal blocks like the Ipac for hooking up any number of thumpers, LEDs and such, which are placed in the cabinet wherever you need them.  As people wrote hacks for their favorite game drivers, they could submit them for entry in the Mame source code, and the interface would eventually work on many games!

I'm about an hour away from having a working recoil driver board for my Terminator 2 guns, I'd love to be able to add additional outputs for Outrun, Qbert, etc.

USB I think would be more difficult--its bacically 2 pins for power and 2 for data.  You need some kind of encoder on the board to send and receive discrete inputs from the PC...

[Howard_Casto]

I'm on board for this too if anyone's interested...  Drivers I'm not good at but the hardware end shouldn't be a prob for me as we would simply need some simle input output stuff.  As for usb, it's not a problem at all... go to your local staples and you'll find a nifty little adapter that turns one of your usb ports into a parallel prot via a simple cable and controller chip.  So we make it as a parallel device and usb nuts can get one of those adaptors.  We're still overlooking a MAJOR problem with all of these solutions, namely thier compatability with 2000/xp. I know alot of you use 98 or even dos right now, but trust me on this 98 is fading fast, we need to keep things somewhat on the cutting edge or everything will have to be re-built in a couple years, much like the problem andy is having with the ipac programming right now.  That's why I suggested the led input orignally, not because of ease of use/building, but because it would work on anything.  (In theory at least.)  

You guys let me know something... it's not like I don't have enough  projects in the works right now, but when It's a good one like this, I'm always willing to lend a hand.

[aramis]

Howard,

I've been trying to figure out a nice way around the fact that other games use the LED's. Do you know of any way to look up which games use the LED's? Without knowing which games/what LEDs I haven't gotten too far. Obviously, we only want the knocker to "knock" when playing QBert, so the only thing I can think of is to qualify the QBert knocker by doing something like:

AND two (or three) KB led's together to trigger the knocker circuit. (Any games flash two or all three LED's simultaneously right now?)

An expansion of that could be to figure some scheme that is NOT used by a current game (for example: NUM, SCROLL on, CAPS off) and use inverters, ANDs, ORs or whatever to trigger the knocker circuit...

I really think this idea could be expanded to full force feedback somehow, but in the short term I'd just like to have a Qbert knocker in Win XP.  

[Thenasty]

I like the sound of all of this thread. Hope to see it implemented and somehow we get it going. I mlsef have never seen the knocker on Q-bert. Anyone here have a pic of the origianl knocker ? or is it only a solenoid that knocks the piece of wood inside the cabinet....
According to the site fromt he first post, llooks like we can have 8 gadgets hook up to LPT port. And each can invidually triggered...1 for Q-bert = D0 ,  1 for T2 = D1, 1 for RevX = D2 etc...

[1UP]

OK, we're only focusing on qbert right now, but this is something that should be expanded.  For starters, I can think of at least one game that uses all three LEDs at once--Terminator 2.  Right now, it's possible to get one of the guns running by using just the three LEDs (one for target lock, one for enemy lock warning, one for the recoil.)  But I would like to have both guns fully functioning, and that takes more inputs.  The best way would seem to involve the parallel port.

Qbert should be easy to do with the LED hack.  You basically need just one input to fire the coil.  Link it to the scroll lock light, and it'll almost never fire during some other game.  To be sure, just put a toggle or push-on push-off switch inside the coin door.  Done.

I'd like to see feedback added to more games, and for that, we need a good interface.  I'm almost done with mine!

[SirPoonga]

Ok, if you want something more "universal" it should be more like this:

A USB device would be the ultimate.  If not a lpt device or serial device hooked up to a microcontroller that controls a bunch of relays(all taking power off the computer).

Either way you'd have to program a microcontroller.  

Why would this be better universally?'
well, you can then just send a certain signal to that device (talking as if it were USB) and it would, based off that signal, set of a certain amount of relays.  Theoretically then I think you could make a device to have maybe upto 255 relays?

So for just qbert you hook that up to a relay, then int he mame source output the right signal to the usb device to dset it off.

I think we as a team could do it.  We electronics people here (not me!!) and programmers (2.5 years experience in the real world, did some low level stuff while at IBM:)

If someone could find a way to program a USB microcontroller I think I understand it (I can read assembly, barely).  Together I think we could come up with something.  Could make a deal with some one like Kelsey to sell it too.  Instuctions to mod mame will be easy, just apply a diff file for what features you want and compile:)

Being a "universal" arcade hardware component you can then hookup lights, solenoids, timers, what have you and just send the right signal to the device to trip the appropiate relays.

I'd suggest USB because it is a standard and well documented.  And cabinets are turning to using USB as alot of things (trackballs, spinners, light guns) are USB.


hehe, if I can make some type of money off it I'd gladly help, unemployment sucks!!!  

[ErikRuud]

!up,

I already mentioned this link in another thread, but Weeder Technologies already has a line of I/O boards that could be used for these types of applications.

I know there are othe companies that make simular devices, but when I was researching this a year or two ago, Weeder had the best bang for the buck.  Most other companies were much more expensive.

[SirPoonga]

Hehe, that's what I need:)  Too bad it's $70, to unemployed that very expensive;)

[1UP]

Hehe, that's what I need:)

[Dav]

i have considered other options.

What's a 555 timer?
As that might be something better to put in my schematic.

So you know how to do that counter thing with interrupts in mame.

[Beley]

Here is something i made to run stepper motors off of the parallel port a while ago.

It uses 2 ULN2003 chips,they are Darlintion arrays and can handle up to 50V and 500mA, meaning that it could drive some big lights or perhaps the most useful would be to drive relays which cannot be driven directly by the parallel ports 5V, there are 12 outputs and 5 inputs, sorry about the lack of a schematic but i never made one , only this PCB layout  

[Bren R.]

SP - seems the BEST idea (I'm never one for "easy" or "cheap") is to use your choice of port:

I'd say serial, some people use parallel to turn on their arcade monitors once sync is stabilized and Scroll Lock, well, god forbid someone should HIT the Scroll Lock key in WIN and end up burning out your solenoid.

A 555 timer chip is a good idea, fixes the problem of how fast to send the 255/0 (especially with future advancements in processor speeds) but will take some work to get the component selection right.

The same setup could be used for any number of pieces of feedback, D0 (1) for QBert, D1 (2) for APB lights (using more 555 timers to blink them), D2 (4) for... etc.

Document them and make them a standard.

Bren...

[SirPoonga]

I like Bren's idea.  The timing should not be done in mame.
IF so happen mame crashed while the port or led was turned on you will have a constinant flow of electricity going to the solenoid, that's not good.

I like the Weeder Tech thing.  That's what's needed.  It sounds like that does the timing for you, you just have to signal it.