RAM Controls - Star Wars Flight Yoke

[whynotpizza]

Hi,

Anyone know what the status is on this new product from RAM Controls?

  http://www.ram-controls.com/controller-sw.html

I put a pre-order in, was charged $230 and have been anxiously awaiting some sort of status on ETA. Is it legal to charge $$ without shipping anything?

I will also send an email to them to see what they say.

Just checking with the message boards to see if anyone knows the inside scoop.

Thanks,

    David

[Daviea]

Updates on this project are noted here:

http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-sw.html

Hope this helps.

David Adams
RAM Controls

P.S.  David, you should have received email response before you read this.

[shorthair]

I'm gueesing then that the pre-order period hasn't passed and the $230 included shipping?

[whynotpizza]

Thanks Daviea.

I must have missed the update on the BLOG, sorry about that.

That was also a very nice response via email. You do seem very reputable, and will stand by your work for the pre-order process. Thanks for the update.

Please keep my pre-order in the system, and I'll go back to my anxiously awaiting mode.

Looking forward to seeing a terrific product from you and your team.
 

   David

[horseboy]

I put a pre-order in... Is it legal to charge $$ without shipping anything?

Maybe you should verse yourself on the concept of a preorder. 

[Havok]

Aww man - you got me all excited for nothing. I pre-ordered too, and am patiently waiting. Hopefully, the early April timeframe won't change.

BTW - didn't you pay $215?

[whynotpizza]

Yes, Mine was the same price. $200, but I ordered some extra potentiometers SW100K @ $10 and the $15 shipping. Total was actually $225.00.

Sorry to get you guys all excited with the title of the post.

I'm glad there are folks like David @ RAM Controls who are taking the time to produce such a quality product. I was impressed with his Major Havoc, although never purchased one myself, but with the Yoke, will be glad to get that added to my home system!

   David

[shorthair]

Just tried out my DS controller.  At first, it's not bad.  Way better than anything else....but, the lack of being fixed to something makes for some sloppiness (I expected this), and am anticipating my just-ordered yoke in the coming month or so.

[rovingmind]

has anybody recieved theirs yet?

[Havok]

Not yet - I recently received an e-mail from David that he is still working on getting the handles powder coated properly from the vendor. He is considering an alternative that he can do in-house. Considering the slow turnaround from the outside vendor, he thinks that he will be delivering some other products in the interim so at least hopefully soon we will see some activity from him.

He is still working on getting control of the website, so that's why there are no updates as of yet. Hopefully, all of this information is true...

 

[Chunce DeLeone]

I emailed him a few weeks ago and heard the same

[rovingmind]

Thats actually a bit discouraging.  I would be willing to buy one non-powdercoated.  Maybe he will have them ready by my tentative purchase date ( january/february )

He's been saying the same thing since may.  I'm believing he's more interested in selling the parts and the whole unit is going to end up vaporware.   I really hope not.  The work he has done has been high quality.

[Chunce DeLeone]

Spoke to David,
Hi Matt,
 
I've bought some mid-range powdercoating equipment so I can attempt to do this in-house.  I've been going back and forth with several vendors and none of them can seem to get it just right, so I've taken the plunge to just do it myself.  I'm committed to getting this project finished for several reasons, one of which is so that I have controllers for the SW cockpit cabinets I'm producing.  :-)
 
Anyhow, I don't have the oven setup yet (it's a huge 8' x 10' production oven which requires a hookup I don't have at the plant.  I'm having the utilities come out to add the service so I can hook up the oven.  Once that's done, I'm all over the powdercoating myself.  I'm going to hire a temp. pc operator to help with the job. 
 
I'm not going to let the project slip away.  It's just taking <<FAR>> longer than anticipated.
 
Talk to you soon.
 
David
 

[rovingmind]

i shall consider myself chastised for loosing faith, and continue to sit quietly awaiting the promised goods.................



although i do have a couple chunks of aluminum that would make a nice pair of side panels and a base set aside just in case.

[Havok]

Oh well, looks like this is turning into a Christmas present after all...

[FrizzleFried]

Oh well, looks like this is turning into a Christmas present after all...

...of `08?

 

[Daviea]

Here's a long overdue report on the status of various projects going on over at RAM Controls.    Sorry about the delay in news.

First of all, I've had very limited access to the website as far as the FTP server is concerned, so I have had *difficulties* in updating many of the project blogs.  This is a known issue and I have been working on it.  Long story, would rather not get into it for the time being.

That said, here's where we are with the top 6 projects:

1.  Star Wars flight yoke.  I get the most requests for info on this project and for good reason....it's a fricken cool item for an even cooler game!  LOL  Someone copied an email of mine verbatim earlier in the thread, so you have an idea of what's going on.  Ok, so we've been in a stand still holding pattern for many, many months on this project due to continued vendor issues with the powdercoating.  I tried several different vendors and it all ended up with the same outcome: they could not get the job done.  The reasons are many, but the outcome was always the same.  I finally got my fill of all the excuses and delays and pulled all the handle pieces back.  I actually had to send them in to be stripped of the crappy powdercoat job, too. 

So, I sat on the project for a few weeks, trying to figure out how I could manage to do the job myself, in-house.  Doing it this way would give me the ultimate in quality control which is a major concern of mine.  After doing a lot of research on the topic and visiting a few showrooms to try out various powdercoating equipment, I opted to buy a huge setup.  I figure this would take care of this project and any future projects which may require powdercoating of any kind.  Sure, it set me back a few dimes, but it's going to be worth it in the long-run.  Now, I've taken delivery of the equipment and it's been sitting in the shop for some time now.  I've been waiting on the utilities to come out and set it up for me (need electrical and gas hookups) as well as new air lines for the PC machine AND the sandblaster.  Unfortunately, you can't just call them up and have them out the next day to get it done. 

Anyhow, this equipment is some nice stuff to get to play with, so it's worth the wait, IMO.  Ok, backing up a little bit, the entire project is done EXCEPT for:  (a) powdercoating the housing(the single part that the yoke artwork is applied to) (b) powdercoating the handles and (c) assembly of the device.  I'd like to note that there are exactly twelve (12) existing prepays for this this item.  If ANY of you decide that enough is enough and you'd rather not wait any longer, PM me or email me and I'll refund your cabbage right away.  I don't want to leave you guys hanging on a project that's well beyond the original expected completion date.  I'll throw in some nice extras for anyone who manages to wait this one out.  :-)

2.  The Lunar Lander thrust controller.  While I've been spinning my wheels with the above project, I've made some serious headway on the LL thruster.  I have the bracket weldment completed which was actually the most difficult part.  I also have the following parts done: the shafts, the pins, the plastic bearings and spacers, the handle (which, by the way, I've made from aluminum and hard anodized black -- looks awesome), the rubber bumper stops and the springs.  I've got the Y-shaped handle weldment parts machined, now I need to weld them together and then chrome it.  Last item, the control cover (the big black plastic piece) is nearly complete.  I had to send this out, but it appears to be running smoothly.  All in all, this project will most likely be completed before the SW yoke.

3.  Food Fight & Red Baron gimbal (analog) joysticks. These are a little bit behind compared to the two above, but I've made some serious headway with them.  The top plates are done, the gimbal linkages are done, the body (upper and lower) is done.  The shafts are done.  I'm waiting on the handles and the gimbals.  I figured out a way to make the gimbals out of aluminum (instead of nylon), so they'll be superior parts.  The gimbal linkages are also aluminum -- nice!!  Overall, this one has some time to go before I finish it.  I still need to find someone who can overmold the handle knob onto the FF shaft.

4.  720 Rotary controller.  This one is at a stand-still while I re-engineer the controller. I already have many of the parts finished, however.  The sprockets, the chain, the encoder wheel, the alignment wheel, etc.

5.  Dedicated Major Havoc cabinet.  This one has come a very long way over the last few months.  Sometime soon, I'll have some pics available of the "dry fit" for the final pre-production model. 

6.  I've been "quietly" working on reproduction LED switches (the ones used with the Atari button cones).  Sure, I have a boatload of NOS red LED switches, but I've been slammed with requests for "other" colors ever since I started up RAM Controls.  Well, I'm happy to report that I'm getting close to completion on this one.  My reproduction is based on the Licon version (rather than the Cherry version) for a couple of reasons.  The main reason being that the Licon version is a much better made part to begin with.  Anyhow, I'm going to be offering LED buttons in standard red, of course.  I'm also going to be offering them in green, yellow, blue and white.  They will be identical in form and fit to the originals which means that the lenses (actually, they're called "plungers") will be 100% compatible with the OEM switches.  Best part is that I should be able to offers these suckers for much, MUCH less than the OEM buttons. :-)

So, that's about it for now.  Thanks for the support, everyone.  I appreciate it. 

David

[HoopstarsGarage]

Ohh Sex..!!


Hoops

[ratzz]

Sorry ... sounds like more hot air to me.

Noone should order until they have problems sorted. why should you fund these delays?

BAD excuses ...

RUN ... RUN AS FAS AS YOU CAN ...

[jcoleman]

Sorry ... sounds like more hot air to me.

Noone should order until they have problems sorted. why should you fund these delays?

BAD excuses ...

RUN ... RUN AS FAS AS YOU CAN ...

You've been a member for two and a half months and you're teling us to avoid a vendor who has so far acted in good faith?  Where does one obtain arrogance of this sort?  Where do you even fit into the picture here?  Perhaps you're the disgruntled former partner?

[ratzz]

You know ... I expected something like this would happen when I posted such semi-strong comments... ‘I have no opinion because I have only a few weeks on the board. ’. I’m not “qualified”, or don’t fit into some kind of “clique”.

I am a successful businessman of many years, and I am completely happy that I am more than qualified to question, or make comment of someone else’s business that seems to be failing - whether it be StarWars yokes, or  bottle tops. Although I don’t feel I need to explain myself to anyone – or you, let me expand:

I’ll give you some quotes: “So, I sat on the project for a few weeks….” WHAT? You don’t ever “sit” on a project to think - more importantly, not peoples hard earned cash! What is there to think about? Get on with the business you’ve set up, and the promises you’ve made to customers! IT DOESN’T TAKE THIS LONG!

“I put a pre-order in, was charged $230 and have been anxiously awaiting some sort of status on ETA. Is it legal to charge $$ without shipping anything?”

“Aww man - you got me all excited for nothing. I pre-ordered too, and am patiently waiting. Hopefully, the early April timeframe won't change.”

“has anybody recieved theirs yet?”

+ may more, and on other threads.

Now, to answer your hot headed points: “You've been a member for two and a half months and you're teling [edit, spelling: telling] us to avoid a vendor who has so far acted in good faith?  Where does one obtain arrogance of this sort?  Where do you even fit into the picture here?  Perhaps you're the disgruntled former partner?”

The only “good faith” I see in this “project” is that some guy has taken honest peoples hard earned cash, and have had no return … forgive me, but this is not “good faith” - this is just taking peoples money. Anyone can set-up a website and claim to produce, or do something and take peoples money without actually doing anything. It’s called a “SCAM”. This is, technically, what is going on here, until something is produced. Heck, even you could do it jcoleman!

“avoid a vendor” he hasn’t traded anything yet, so is not a vendor. He is just collecting dosh. Let’s see some pictures of new equipment.

 “Where does one obtain arrogance of this sort?” – not even going there.

“Where do you even fit into the picture here?” – confused again! “I think, therefore I am” (look it up)

“Perhaps you're the disgruntled former partner?” No. I have made friends here and would have offered them the same advice face-to-face as I would on the forum.

Now please, before you post a witty, response, think about the situation. We are all here for the same reason. I am not trying to score points or climb the alpha tree – I have plenty of experience in business, and this guy has not produced the goods. People have paid hundreds of £ and $ for nothing.

I’m here to build my own cab and offer advice where I can, and I do not change any of that advice. Do not invest in a business that is dining out on your money.

Show us pictures of new equipment. The last blog entry on the home page was: 22nd May 2007.

Deliver or refund. End of discussion.

BTW. Like you're cab   

[Daviea]

Hey everyone,

Some of you were asking for updates, so I provided an update on the more popular projects.  This was specifically aimed at those who are interested.  Anyone who has paid for a preorder and doesn't wish to wait any longer is welcome to a full refund.  I've tried to make this as clear as I can.  For the record, I've completed several projects in the past (Major Havoc roller, button cones, 4.5" trackballs, plus various components for many other controllers, etc) which nobody else would bother taking on.  I believe that I have positively contributed to the hobby in a very useful and unique way.  Perhaps I am mistaken on this point?

I guess it's down to "ok, so what have you done for us today?"  Well, I'm working on many projects which *will* be completed.  It's a slow going process which requires that I deal with other vendors at times which may or may not be in any hurry to move things along.  It's unfortunate, but absolutely unavoidable.  I realize that there will be nay-sayers no matter what I do, but the end result will be the same, regardless...new products.  I may have taken some recent heat over slow shipping (due to internal issues as well as shipper problems), but I always close out my transactions either with product or a refund.  I'd like to think that my reputation as a maker of quality parts has remained intact.

Rattz.  It seems to me that you're trolling for a fight.  Not going to happen with me, buddy.  Hot air.  Scam.  LOL  Let's just agree to disagree and leave it there.

David

[saint]

I'm seriously thinking of putting in a pre-order   David, you still accepting those?

[Havok]

Ratzz,

He is a vendor, like he says: he has delivered on other arcade related parts. In fact a number of members here have dealt with him in the past. I'm one of the pre-orders, (lol - the dirty dozen!) and I personally am sticking this one out - the return is worth the wait.

David - since you have the equipment now and are just waiting on the hookups before proceeding, what kind of time frame do you expect once you are fully operational?

[Delgar]

I've been one of those waiting in the wings (and lurking), so to speak, for what seems like a very long time, before ordering one of these yokes.

Given the complexity of the undertaking, it seems very odd to me that the big problem is quality control on the  powder coating. I've had a few things coated over the years, and its not nearly as hard as many of the other steps needed to create a replica star wars yoke.

I'll still give the benefit of the doubt to this, and I really want one, but i'd rather pay a premium on something real than get a discount on someone's dream.

I'll be buying one, if it turns out to be real....

[Level42]

So Dave, how is your E-bay account these days ?

Saint, do think about your role here as the owner of the forum.....if you put your trust in David that sets an example.

I've read on other forums that David didn't deliver on e-bay auctions, got negative feedbacks and closed his account. THIS IS WHAT I READ, NOT KNOW  however.

I am always willing to trust someone up-front. I probably need some parts for my SW yoke soon and would like to order in confidence with David, but reading all the messages everywhere, I would only order if he agrees to ship it first, and when it arrives I pay him. David, do you accept this, it could well establish back faith in you and your business.

[ratzz]

I'll be buying one, if it turns out to be real....

Me too ...

In response - I don't wish to upset anyone about my comments, but the time frame for this project is too long to be believable.

Why is it taking so long? I know you have explained some issues, but I could have built a real size death star in the time this project has taken (and powder coated it).

I stand by my comments, however harsh they sound, and I am still suspicious of the whole concept of 'pre-order'.

ratzz

[ratzz]

FAQ's, RAM Controls

Q:  I ordered something from you, but I don't have it yet,  What should I do?
A:  Always contact us if there is an issue of any type.  Once you place an order, generally, you should have it within 3-4 business days at most.  If you do not receive an order within this timeframe, your first action should be to contact us immediately so we can determine the issue and resolve it.

[ark_ader]

I ordered some lighted Atari like cone buttons from RAM Controls a few months ago, I sent him an email about when they were going to ship, and I had to wait a bit, then I found out that the cone buttons were not lit. I fired an email to the the guy and he cancelled my order and payment without a hassle.

I would buy from Ram Controls again, since they have good customer service.

If RAM Controls doesn't deliver with your Yoke within a reasonable time, then you should ask to get your money back.  Better to put a deposit then full payment on anything like that.

Then you can build your own, which isn't too difficult.  I'm building my second yoke as the last one broke.  Just follow the example on the links on this site, and switch to optical as it is much easier.

There is no reason to get into a row over it, or be disrespectful, just ask for your money back.

Remember any "coming soon product" is vaporware until it ships.

[ChadTower]

He is a vendor, like he says: he has delivered on other arcade related parts.

To be fair, he delivered after taking orders for parts packages and then not sending them out until he was chased down for them.  That's not exactly a faith building exercise.  I am speaking of the Yoke parts bundles a few months back.

[saint]

Saint, do think about your role here as the owner of the forum.....if you put your trust in David that sets an example.

Yeah, I do think long and hard because of this and this is why you'll rarely see me endorse any particular vendor. I about wrote something like I did 3 different times but didn't exactly because of this. However, just because I run this insane asylum doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion

I'm human too and I have a good feeling in my gut about David. I don't want to see a source of products for this community disappear because the community is giving them a hard time, if it is undeserved. A pre-order is a gamble, and I think anyone who has pre-ordered understood that. I get the vibes that if things finally go south that David will refund the pre-orders. I don't understand people griping about a pre-order on an in-development product. I'm reminded of the Big Bang Bar pinball that took years to be produced with $4500 pre-order investments on the line. I would be a lot less tolerant if I was expecting something from an established corporation. Vendors in this hobby however are almost all hobbiests doing it on the side. Jobs, kids, family life, vacations, illnesses, "I'm too damned tired to work on this today" are all things I think they're entitled to. As someone hoping for a product I don't have the time or personal ability to make, my role for a pre-order product is to decide how long I'm willing to wait. If it exceeds my personal wait threshhold, I'll ask for my money back under the terms I initially agreed to. Until the vendor in question refuses to give me my money back however, I don't think I have anything to ---smurfette--- about.

It's a whole different story on a product advertised as shipping however. Then you have a reasonable expectation of a reasonable time frame and quality of work. I understood there were problems with filling orders before on some of his other products but also was under the impression all were made good, and the products delivered were of very good quality. I'd be interested to hear about anyone who had an initial problem who didn't finally get a resolution. That would be a different kettle of fish altogether.

Until I hear that however, what I've got to go with on a pre-order for a product in development is my gut, and my gut tells me that so far I have some confidence in David's intentions. I hope this succeeds and if it doesn't I don't believe it will be because of lack of intent on David's part.

--- saint

[ChadTower]

The people who made Big Bang Bar aren't hobbyists.  They are an established vendor and have been for a long time, before and after they shipped Big Bang Bar.  The people who preordered those pins took a far more substantial risk than the people preordering these yokes and it paid off in a ridiculously profitable way... once those machines started shipping they were selling on the secondary market for 5 figures.  They are still selling, when moved, in the $7000+ range.

That said, I have spent substantial time playing one of their Big Bang Bars, and it's a top notch product.  I'd say better quality than new Sterns.

[saint]

Meh, you missed the forest for the trees in your way. He'd never done something like that before (completely produce a pinball machine from the prototypes and few parts that were available). It was a related, but completely different business, from what he had done before. I wish I could find the article (believe it was in GameRoom magazine) but imho it's an apt comparison. Nevermind I don't want to derail this thread. My earlier position stands.

[Daviea]

Guys,

I'm surprised by the level of response since my initial update.  Listen, I understand the dread of having to wait it out for new products.  Being at the center of the situation, I can attest to the fact that it's maddening at best.  I'm not up to some nefarious plan designed to dupe people out of their money.  What I am is an arcade hobbyist, or enthusiast if you will.  One who happens to be equipped to manufacture parts made from metal, plastic, wood and even PCB materials.  Granted, RAM Controls is only a very small side business to my main business, but I do treat it with a great level of respect and even...love.   I've had an established and blossoming manufacturing business for many years.  RAM Controls is simply an offshoot of this business which I operate during all of my free time.  With this said, don't make light of my intentions or my resolve as I do spend quality time working on all of the projects.  I'm in this for the long run, regardless of any dissenting views which may be voiced by people in the community.

Yes, I take full responsibility for the last batch of yoke kits (and what not) which were sent out late.  I explained it and dealt with it.  I believe that I concluded each and every purchase satisfactorily.  What we have now is a situation where one, maybe even two or three people are demanding immediate results and/or explanations for an ongoing project, completely disregarding my previous comments as nonsense.  I do take exception to this as my intentions are pure.  I have been accommodating on several levels.  First and foremost, I have offered to issue a full refund to anyone unwilling or unable to wait for their pre-orders to materialize.  Second, I have been very specific as to the nature of the hold up on this end.  It's simply impossible for me to provide immediate results in the form of a finished product and I believe that I have explained this enough times to substantiate the reasoning.  Sure, it's taking a long time.  I side with this assessment and agree that it's overdue.  However, I cannot control outside forces (ie: vendors) and to ask me to do so is unreasonable.

Saint, I'm not accepting pre-orders any longer.  Not for this item or any other item in the future.  The attached strings are too difficult.  Although, I do appreciate the obvious backup you're showing me. :-)  Thanks, man.

Havok,  Thanks for hanging in there, dude.  I'd like to wait until I get the equipment hooked up and running before I give anymore estimates.  I believe, at this point, it would be irresponsible for me to offer up any guesswork.

Ratzz, you're entitled to your opinion and comments....and suspicions. Like you said in a previous posting, we're all in this for the same reason.  BTW, while totally unreasonable in context, the Death Star comment made me laugh.

Level42,  If you'd like for me to send out something ahead to you to show a little good faith, what is it that you'd like?  PM me or email me.

Delgar,  Quality control is a big deal to me.  I have no clue why the powdercoating has been such an issue, but the resultant parts I've been getting back from these people has been nothing less than unacceptable.  If I gave the green light on those parts and used them as-is, I would be answering to a "you have a crappy product" thread.  Not going to go there.  Just hold your horses and be pleasantly surprised when the yoke is completed. :-)

Ok, I think that about covers it.  I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone with my products and I while I do have issues with people being disrespectful to me, I also understand and accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I do appreciate constructive criticism and even differing viewpoints.  Please, however, I ask that you refrain from crossing the line from having an opinion into the murky area of being rude to me, especially when it's undeserved.  I will, in turn, be respectful of you in kind. 

David

[Kaytrim]

David,

I have been following the various threads over the last year or so about your projects.  I have also been cheering you on from the sidelines.  I think what you are doing is a service to the community and hope that you can get these final roadblocks out of your way.  Personally I don't have much interest in what you are building but I know that there is a demand for these parts.  The oddball games like StarWars, 720 and Major Havoc are icons of the industry and need be be preserved if at all possible.  Your work is invaluable in the endever of this preservation.

For those naysayers that are not happy with the slow and even non existent progress at times I say try to do it yourself.  As Saint said, this is a hobby and hobby's need to take a back seat from time to time.  David has produced products for the hobby and there are some here that have benefited from his hard work and attention to detail.  I believe that David will prevail and get the Yoke and other toys built.

TTFN
Michael

[Level42]

Saint: Thanks for your clear words. If you thought so, I was never saying you're not entitled to an opinion, quite the other way around actually

David, thanks for your reply. I think/hope I was respectful to you, even though I did mention some serious things. Anyway, as I said before I'm always willing to give anyone my trust. Luckily, the world is still so that I've never had any serious problems with that, as long as I use my common sense. However, from the things I mentioned I got an uneasy feeling to order with you. I think other people may have the same feeling. It would be wise to see this as feedback and learn from it. It harms your business. The fact that it's not your full-time business doesn't make a difference. A promise is still a promise
When I agree something with a friend, I expect him to keep his promise, even though it's not his "main business".

Building trust takes a long time, it ca be ruined within seconds.

IMHO it might be better to focus on one or two projects, finish them and then make the next step. But I don't have the complete picture.

Fact is, you've already made some quality products I know that. I strongly hope the yoke will become what it was ment to be !

I will examine my SW yoke next weekend and PM you.

[CheffoJeffo]

to David, as well as saint, kaytrim and others who are showing faith in David and his projects. Also  to those who remain skeptical, but are respectful.

As saint points out, RealLife(tm) tends to intervene (heck, it took me months to ship out a board for a member here because I just kept forgetting about it). David has made a real effort to keep people informed and has delivered in the past. Apparently, he also tries to make things right when things go awry.

Now, if only I had a StarWars or MajorHavoc project ... and, yep, part of my confidence in the projects is a gut feeling about David.

[jcoleman]

You know ... I expected something like this would happen when I posted such semi-strong comments... ‘I have no opinion because I have only a few weeks on the board. ?’. I’m not “qualified”, or don’t fit into some kind of “clique”.
--snip--
Now please, before you post a witty, response, think about the situation. We are all here for the same reason. I am not trying to score points or climb the alpha tree – I have plenty of experience in business, and this guy has not produced the goods. People have paid hundreds of £ and $ for nothing.

Maybe I was a little out of line with my original post, but I think it was worth it based on the discussion that came out of it.  You have to realize that many of us have dealt with actual hard-core scammers on the internet, and in some cases on this forum specifically - search for "harpal" (it's a username) and you will see why I tend to give someone like David the benefit of the doubt.

BTW. Like you're cab   

Thanks, wish I had more time to work on it!

Coleman

[Agent Davis]

FWIW, I think it's great that people are willing to take on such enormous projects.  This isn't a cheap undertaking, and I'm sure pre-orders have helped offset a lot of the major expenses involved.  Those who pre-ordered have all been offered refunds for the delays.  Keep up the good work and most of us are all looking for a great finished product.

[Breaker]

Hello all,

As a member of the new dirty dozen (lol - good one Havok) I too understood that pre-orders always have an element of risk, however, before ordering, I exchanged several emails with David and found him to be open and honest in every regard.  As Saint aluded to, it was on the merit of these communications (and the posts on this forum which spoke to the extremely high quality of his Major Havoc spinner and Atari cone buttons) that I felt confident in placing a pre-order.

That said, I have sent David a few messages over the past six months requesting updates on the SWY project, and in each case he has been timely and courteous in his responses. Yes, the project has had delays, but that's bound to happen when one takes on a project to completely remanufacture a controller like the Star Wars Yoke (and as noted, David has on many occasions offered to refund any pre-orders upon request). True, some of us have been stung by other vendors, but we shouldn't allow those experiences to influence our judgement in this case. David has acted politely and professionally in all his posts to the board (despite the slings and arrows sent his way) and that says a great deal in my book. Let's be patient folks, and support our vendors, we'll all reap the benefits in the end. 

Cheers,
Breaker.

[Chunce DeLeone]

I'm in the dirty dozen and we should stick this out and stick together.  I think this is going to work out and our reward besides saving some cash, we are going to be he first ones ever on the block to have a repro-yoke,  everyone is going to want one after its done, The Force Will Be With You, Always

[Bender]

I have been watching David's yoke project for some time and believe that he has always been up front and honest about what he is doing and the delays etc.
I'd rather have it later and right than sooner and half ass-ed
and considering that one alternative is over $600 I think it worth the wait
If you were still accepting pre-orders I'd be in!!

Best to you David and Thanks for doing what you do!

[ratzz]

Any news on this guys?

I'm a SERIOUS SW freak, and would love to be able to add one (in one way or another) to my build -- I don't think my U360 is going to cut it.

Ratzz 

[Havok]

I was hoping to see this by Christmas, but looks like that isn't going to happen. Oh well... Sent an email out to David for a status update - hopefully he has at least hooked up his machine and has started the powder coating process?

(Where's the finger's crossed smiley?)

[Level42]

Don't worry. There will be a Christmas again next year. And I hear they are planning for one in 2009 as well.

[Havok]

Don't worry. There will be a Christmas again next year. And I hear they are planning for one in 2009 as well.

Haha - I didn't mean "a" I meant "this" !

[BrentRadio]

Have a nice day.

[ratzz]

There were no updates on the blog when I last looked...

[Chunce DeLeone]

I emailed David about 2 weeks ago, he said that there was allot of progress and that he might be ready for Christmas,  we shall see, would be great

[jlfreund]

Does anyone know what the interface will be?  Will it just plugin to USB, or do we need to free up keys and hook into the optical interface on our minipac?

Also, I'm wondering if anyone is planning to mod their existing CP or cabinet to accomodate the yoke rather than build a dedicated machine?  I have a UA II cab with a pretty standard 2P CP that has a trackball in the center and no room for the yoke. 

I'd be interested in seeing if anyone can come up with creative (ie elegant) ways to add a yoke as a temporary or permanent fixture.

[Level42]

I emailed David about 2 weeks ago, he said that there was allot of progress and that he might be ready for Christmas,  we shall see, would be great

He still has a couple of hours....

[Havok]

 

Times up... Oh well, at least I get my main Christmas present - a Zune 80! ! !

[MameMaster!]

...and the latest on this is ? 

[ratzz]

Blog has not been updated for some time.

I think I will look into alternative means of piloting my x-wing!

[Havok]

I'm not optimistic - I sent David an email 3 weeks ago, and no response. Also, he hasn't been on here since December 7th, at least logged in that is...

 

[Level42]

Com'on people give the guy a break. I mean, he only has your money for what, almost a year now, and you all still got nothing ? That's not unusual now is it ? Without any recent update ? Sounds like great customer service and reliability to me !

I'm sure he will surface and put another update here soon. I guess within a month or so ?

[Fozzy The Bear]

Com'on people give the guy a break. I mean, he only has your money for what, almost a year now, and you all still got nothing ? That's not unusual now is it ? Without any recent update ? Sounds like great customer service and reliability to me !

Exactly why I didn't jump on the pre-order........ I'm happy to pay the few extra dollars they will be when they go on sale from stock.

I don't believe that David is disshonest or unreliable. I just think he's hit brick walls that he wasn't expecting during development. Things have not gone to plan. Probably more things than even he has said in his blog. I guess he wishes that he hadn't done the pre-order thing now, he does sound a bit stressed out by it.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[TPB]

People,

It's time to take David up on his offer, for a full refund.

He's previously offered those who are "sick of waiting" a refund - well, what are you waiting for ??  Ask for it now !!

A year is long enough to wait with your money tied up with someone else, and nothing to show for it.

And hell, you'll be doing David a favour ... once you've got your money back, you'll no longer have any "moral right" to demand constant progress updates from him.  He can duly take his own sweet time, he can take as many years as he wants to complete the project, or if he likes, he can just walk away from it.

If things turn out rosy, and David actually does finish the project, you'll still get your Star Wars yoke.  Simply place an order, down the track, from the production stock, like anyone else.  Who cares if you pay a little more for an order placed down the track ??  Better than trying to "scrimp and save" right now with a pre-order, when in reality, you're just risking your hard earned dosh disappearing into thin air.

The sooner you ask for (and then receive) your money back, the sooner you'll relieve David's stress.

And in the process, you'll also help cement his reputation as an honest broker.

The way things stand at the moment, with it being a year that he's been sitting on people's money, and with him being uncontactable for the past month, well, does the phrase SlikStik come to mind ??

[ChadTower]

I don't believe that David is disshonest or unreliable.

The evidence is dramatically in support of at least unreliable.  Even the rebuild parts bundles had to be chased down in order to get them to ship after they were paid.  A year after preorder and money is still out there?  He keeps disappearing?  I want to keep believing that it's not dishonesty but I'm having trouble keeping that faith at this point.

[TPB]

David's actions are probably not the result of dishonesty, but rather slackness, indifference, or incompetence.

He may have just succumbed to the stress, sank into a state of depression, and walked away from this altogether.

But whatever his intentions, after a year's wait, it's no longer acceptable.

They should be taking David up on his offer for a refund.  And they should be doing that today - the sooner the better.

That's IF they can get back in touch with him (he's been uncontactable for the past month), and IF he honours his prior commitment to provide refunds.

If they have difficulties with either of those two IF's, then it may turn out to be dishonesty after all.

SlikStik on a smaller scale ?? ... let's hope not.

After they (hopefully) get their refunds, let's hope David eventually DOES finish the project - but that'll be entirely his choice - there'll be no pressure on him, once he's provided the refunds.

And if he DOES finish the project, then we can ALL look forward, down the track, to ordering one of these impressive looking yokes from the production stock.

[Havok]

I'd be satisfied if he offered to just deliver what he's got currently. His alleged brick wall was the powder coating process. Give me what you've got, and I'll get it powder coated myself...

[MameMaster!]

Havok...did you get your $$ back? He gave me a refund months ago when I complained about this here at BYOAC.

I too am bummed by this. I really wanted one and even wrote up an interview with him that was supposed to hit the March 2007 (last year) GameRoom magazine.

 

[TPB]

Havok...did you get your $$ back? He gave me a refund months ago when I complained about this here at BYOAC.

I too am bummed by this. I really wanted one and even wrote up an interview with him that was supposed to hit the March 2007 (last year) GameRoom magazine.

Havok ??

[Havok]

Sorry guys - new job, I actually have to do some work now...

 

But to answer the question: no, I didn't. However, I did not ask for a refund. I'm in a tough position now; if I can even contact David, do I ask for a refund or not? I really would like a new yoke instead of buying a beat up one on ebay someday, so I'm stuck. I want to believe that David didn't screw us, but when the guy doesn't answer emails or post anymore, it's not looking too good...

[Daviea]

Hey Everyone.  I just got back from a short (~1month) trip to Sydney.  LOVE it there!  Anyhow, straight to business.  As I just got back, I'm not 100% in the loop with the details of the SW Yoke or the other projects.  However, I just talked to the guy running the show at my plant and he mentioned the SW Yoke.  Apparently, they've (my staff) made "great progress" with the powdercoating while I was away.  If I understood correctly, we're at or near assembly time.  If this is the case, that means for all intents and purposes we're practically done.  I'm making a run to the plant this evening and I'll check out the progress first hand.  Well guys, I think the long wait might finally be over with.

In other news, the LL Thruster is nearly complete as well.  All we need to do is assemble them and they're done!

Also, as I stated in the past, if you want a full refund for your "pre-order", all you have to do is ask and I'll make it happen.  I feel really awful for making everyone wait for so long.  As someone else mentioned, I did hit a few brick walls, that fricken' powdercoating being the mother of all walls! 

As txtworld mentioned, the wait is unacceptable.  I agree wholeheartedly which is why I have stood by my refund policy from the beginning.  Aside from that, I don't appreciate the remainder of his conjecture which is somewhat inflammatory.  However, I suppose I can understand it IF he was on the pre-order list himself.  :-)

So, any of the few pre-orders that find themselves wanting a refund, let me know and it's done.  Like I said before, I feel bad for making you wait and, looking back, I think the whole pre-order idea was a mistake given the unforeseen delays.

Havok,  I looked back and I don't see any email from you a month ago.  I'm usually really good about getting back to people, but I don't see any correspondence from you that I didn't already respond to.

Ok, that's it for now. 

David Adams
RAM Controls

[polaris]

good to see this. i think issues with another supplier were making people anxious about this. get them yokes out, i wanna know how they are so i can order one.

[Daviea]

Hey Polaris,

I just heard about Slik Stik this morning.  That's really awful news.  I'm sorry to see them go because they were a wonderful resource from what I gather.  I never did any business with them directly, but I always heard good things about them.

Luckily, RAM Controls isn't anywhere in the vicinity of the trouble that they're in.  Since RAM Controls is an offshoot (or side business if you will) of my main manufacturing business and is almost completely funded by my own "mad money" (with the exception of a dozen SW yoke pre-orders), we're insulated from nearly all market problems.  In other words, if I don't sell anything for extended periods of time, the business won't/can't die.  Sure, it's not a perfect business model, but that's OK as I'm an arcade enthusiast above all else.  I'm in this for the long haul, as a permanent member of the arcade community.  The downside of the "business" is that there can be extended delays from time to time which is a regrettable situation in the case of pre-orders in particular.  I hate being the focus of supposition and speculation, given my love and dedication to the hobby.

Add to that the sheer length of time this project has been ongoing and my irregular absence from time to time, I can see why people might get agitated and/or uneasy.  For this, I am very sorry.  I try my best to keep everyone in the loop and to mitigate the effects of my unavoidable contract jobs which pull me away from the fight.  As always, if the wait becomes too much to bear, say the word and I'll refund your dough (money).

David Adams
RAM Controls

[unclet]

** I have not preordered, but I have a suggestion 

I just saw this post and it seems people have been waiting almost a year for this yoke to be completed.

Since you only have a dozen pre-orders, perhaps it would be suitable to take it upon yourself to refund all of these preorders with a condition that those people who had a preorder with you could repurchase the yoke once it is available at the same preorder price.   This way, you reestablish yourself as a respected arcade parts dealer, regain a lot of the lost trust from the arcade community as well as stopping any future preorders from occurring thus reducing the backlash from some of your customers.  Actually, calling all 12 people directly to offer this deal would be a nice professional touch.

I understand you say you will provide a refund if they ask, but why not take it upon yourself and provide more of a comfortable feeling amongst your customers.

Please do not take my suggestion in the wrong way, it is just a suggestion .....

I'm making a run to the plant this evening and I'll check out the progress first hand.

I guess if you are going to the plant tonight then you will have absolute knowledge of the progress by tomorrow which then perhaps you will share with us tomorrow?

[Havok]

Hopefully we'll see some good news by tomorrow. How about some pictures of what you've got so far? Please also update us as to a timeframe when we can expect these to be delivered...

P.S. Don't forget the exploded view/documentation and connectors so we aren't hacking the plug!

[TPB]

David,

Everyone's happy to hear from you.   

It's great to hear you've made substantial progress on the SW yoke ... that will be one awesome controller, once completed.   

My apologies if my remarks have come across as a little harsh, but to put them into context ...

You admit the wait has been unacceptable.  That wouldn't be the case if you hadn't accepted money up-front.  If you weren't sitting on people's cash, then take as long as you want.

Having said this, I made it plain you HAD offered (and properly so) those who wanted it a refund, all they had to do was ask :

It's time to take David up on his offer, for a full refund.

He's previously offered those who are "sick of waiting" a refund - well, what are you waiting for ??  Ask for it now !!

... you'll be doing David a favour ... once you've got your money back, you'll no longer have any "moral right" to demand constant progress updates from him.

However, the year-long wait (while sitting on people's cash) was not the only thing that's been unacceptable.  The LACK OF COMMUNICATION has been equally unacceptable, and that's something you'll need to address.

Save the excuses about not receiving Havok's emails.

Just make adjustments, going forward, to your customer service behaviours.

And save the lines about "he's not a customer, so he has no right to speak out" ... we've heard the same tired old lines, time and again, from Mr. Christian Stango.  As I said, save the excuses ... just adjust your future behaviours.

Besides, if you want to hear the words of your customers (both current and abandoned), listen to MameMaster and Havok :

I'm not optimistic - I sent David an email 3 weeks ago, and no response. Also, he hasn't been on here since December 7th, at least logged in that is...

 

Havok...did you get your $$ back? He gave me a refund months ago when I complained about this here at BYOAC.

I too am bummed by this. I really wanted one and even wrote up an interview with him that was supposed to hit the March 2007 (last year) GameRoom magazine.

 

I want to believe that David didn't screw us, but when the guy doesn't answer emails or post anymore, it's not looking too good...

After the SlikStik fiasco, perhaps the community is holding vendors to a higher standard going forward.  But really, keeping in touch with your customers is "not too much" to ask for.

Oh, regarding SlikStik :

I always heard good things about them [SlikStik].

Then you haven't spent much time on the BYOAC forum over the past few years.  Fozzy and FrizzleFried can point you towards some of Christian's historical posts, for bedtime reading material, and as a prime example of how a vendor should NOT treat their customers and the BYOAC community.

Anyway, that's OK.

As long as you keep in regular contact with your customers in the future, and either get your product out soon, or give them their money back (as you've properly offered them, if they ask for it), then all will be smelling like roses.   

[dirt]

hey txtworld, you really need to stop telling people what they need to do. he has the right to run his business anyway he wants. he has offered refunds to everyone. he has not ripped anyone off. he is suppling some hard to find items that nobody has every taken the time to repo. you've been here almost a year what have you actually contributed exept rants and demands? get over yourself.

[TPB]

he has the right to run his business anyway he wants.

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

he has offered refunds to everyone.

Obviously you haven't read my posts.  I've always acknowledged that he's done this from the outset (offered refunds), and properly so.

he has not ripped anyone off.

No, he hasn't.

No argument from me there.

There was never a conclusion that his intentions were improper.

[Havok]

Let me just state for the record, as long as there is progress and communication, I'm cool with David. Now that he has posted again I feel much better about this transaction. However, with that said, I do want to see some real progress. I understand this is a side endeavor, and Real Life(tm) can interfere, so as long is there is a completion to the project (and at this point it should be soon), I'm fine. I am eagerly awaiting David's update on tonight's visit to the shop.

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

Hehe - yeah, I would have preferred to have it back in Feb 07...

However, I understand that this is a fairly monumental undertaking, and can deal with the delay - I've just got my eye on the prize...

[ark_ader]

You guys could have made a 1000 of those yokes if you just followed the instruction on how to make a DIY version.

I've always had good communication from RAM Controls, so hopefully its a happy ending for those who waited.  Nothing worse than paying up for something that ends up being vaporware.

Hope to see a review of the controller this next month.

[dirt]

txtworld, i didnt ask you for a run down of what i said. i know what i wrote.  try reading the last couple of sentences again. those are the ones that really matter anyway.

david, thanks for making the repos for us. most of us really appreiate it. keep them coming.

[rovingmind]

and maybe i can have one for my birthday in may

[TPB]

David,

I presume this control has many applications beyond Star Wars ...

It could be used to play 270 driving games, such as Spy Hunter.

And it's effectively an analogue joystick, right ??  So this opens up a multitude of other games that could be played.

 

[ChadTower]

And save the lines about "he's not a customer, so he has no right to speak out" ... we've heard the same tired old lines, time and again, from Mr. Christian Stango.  As I said, save the excuses ... just adjust your future behaviours.

I really disliked that too.  I'm "not a customer" - I didn't preorder and am damn glad I refrained.  I would like to be a customer, but given everything that has gone on, I'm going to have to sit back and wait for quite a few people to order ahead of me and report positively before I'll send any money.

If being a prospective customer, but not someone who has been taken for a ride yet, gives me no right to an opinion... it probably also gives David no right to future customers.

[Level42]

Hey Everyone.  I just got back from a short (~1month) trip to Sydney.  LOVE it there!  Anyhow, straight to business.  As I just got back, I'm not 100% in the loop with the details of the SW Yoke or the other projects.  However, I just talked to the guy running the show at my plant and he mentioned the SW Yoke.  Apparently, they've (my staff) made "great progress" with the powdercoating while I was away.  If I understood correctly, we're at or near assembly time.  If this is the case, that means for all intents and purposes we're practically done.  I'm making a run to the plant this evening and I'll check out the progress first hand.  Well guys, I think the long wait might finally be over with.

In other news, the LL Thruster is nearly complete as well.  All we need to do is assemble them and they're done!

Also, as I stated in the past, if you want a full refund for your "pre-order", all you have to do is ask and I'll make it happen.  I feel really awful for making everyone wait for so long.  As someone else mentioned, I did hit a few brick walls, that fricken' powdercoating being the mother of all walls! 

As txtworld mentioned, the wait is unacceptable.  I agree wholeheartedly which is why I have stood by my refund policy from the beginning.  Aside from that, I don't appreciate the remainder of his conjecture which is somewhat inflammatory.  However, I suppose I can understand it IF he was on the pre-order list himself.  :-)

So, any of the few pre-orders that find themselves wanting a refund, let me know and it's done.  Like I said before, I feel bad for making you wait and, looking back, I think the whole pre-order idea was a mistake given the unforeseen delays.

Havok,  I looked back and I don't see any email from you a month ago.  I'm usually really good about getting back to people, but I don't see any correspondence from you that I didn't already respond to.

Ok, that's it for now. 

David Adams
RAM Controls

Ahhhh, the lost son returns after vanishing without a word ! Hooray !! He was in Sydney for a month (I wonder on who's money ?). No, that explains a lot. We all know that Australia is still not yet connected to the internet, so it was impossible for him to give a shout from down-under. Figures.
And on goes this "attitude". David's "THE man". "You know dude, I go away from my business for a month and have no clue what they're up to all that time, because -you know- that didgeridoo-phone couldn't reach the US of course".

"Like, there's a guy at my plant running the show (what a great choice of word on that, because that is what this entire story reminds me off) and "APPARANTLY" (what kind of businessman are you , if I were in your shoes and if I knew about these issues and were _REALLY_ feeling awfull about the delay, I would know every ---smurfing--- detail about the progress and be at their "(my staff)" backs ALL the time !!!) they have made some progress. So are YOU not sure if they made some progress, or are THEY not sure (I guess both)

Then comes this line:
If I understood correctly, we're at or near assembly time.  If this is the case, that means for all intents and purposes we're practically done.

That's 5 (Five) BIG "IF"s in a row. I just can't believe the people who have pre-ordered this still have faith after again and again reading this stuff.

My favorite soccer team has a motto: "Geen Woorden Maar Daden" = No Words But Actions.

Might be one to hang over your bed/business.

[saint]

Ahhhh, the lost son returns after vanishing without a word ! Hooray !! He was in Sydney for a month (I wonder on who's money ?). No, that explains a lot. We all know that Australia is still not yet connected to the internet, so it was impossible for him to give a shout from down-under. Figures.
And on goes this "attitude". David's "THE man". "You know dude, I go away from my business for a month and have no clue what they're up to all that time, because -you know- that didgeridoo-phone couldn't reach the US of course".

"Like, there's a guy at my plant running the show (what a great choice of word on that, because that is what this entire story reminds me off) and "APPARANTLY" (what kind of businessman are you , if I were in your shoes and if I knew about these issues and were _REALLY_ feeling awfull about the delay, I would know every ---smurfing--- detail about the progress and be at their "(my staff)" backs ALL the time !!!) they have made some progress. So are YOU not sure if they made some progress, or are THEY not sure (I guess both)

Then comes this line:
If I understood correctly, we're at or near assembly time.  If this is the case, that means for all intents and purposes we're practically done.

That's 5 (Five) BIG "IF"s in a row. I just can't believe the people who have pre-ordered this still have faith after again and again reading this stuff.

My favorite soccer team has a motto: "Geen Woorden Maar Daden" = No Words But Actions.

Might be one to hang over your bed/business.

*boggle*

[Level42]

?

[quarterback]

EDIT
nm

I should just let saint speak for himself

[crummy]

Ahhhh, the lost son returns after vanishing without a word ! Hooray !! He was in Sydney for a month (I wonder on who's money ?). No, that explains a lot. We all know that Australia is still not yet connected to the internet, so it was impossible for him to give a shout from down-under. Figures.

He was probably in Australia on holiday.

[Level42]

If you own a business and go on holiday for a month, you do not keep out of touch.

[knave]

He was probably in Australia on holiday.

I don't always check my Email while on holiday...(do we know all the details or are we guessing?) 

[saint]

?

I thought your post was pretty harsh. Putting in your money in a pre-buy is a speculative investment, with Dave offering a refund if asked for. It's not the same as buying an already developed product and then not getting it. The time frame sure has been long but I don't think anyone's being screwed here and I don't think he deserved the vitriol.

Like many, he's doing it as a hobby business in his spare time. Posts like that would make me second-guess myself as to why I was even bothering, were I in his shoes.  At the least, he's the third person/business to make a go at doing a repro-yoke, with none currently available, so obviously it's a bit of a tough nut to crack and make affordable yet profitable. I'd hate to see someone chased off whose willing to attempt it.

Even four weeks incommunicado around the holiday season doesn't strike me as unreasonable. This opinion of mine is specific to this situation.

--- saint

[Level42]

OK guys, I actually amazed myself about getting so anxious about this. I guess it's the slick talk going on and on that irritates me. And people keeping hanging on to that slick talk.

I'm no stranger here and I never get into this kind of rants, so I can't explain really what made me de-rail.....

But it now dawns upon me: what do I care ? I'm not involved with any of this.

I won't edit out my posting though. If you guys want to flame me, take your turn.

[patrickl]

Even four weeks incommunicado around the holiday season doesn't strike me as unreasonable.

I cannot believe someone would go without the BYOAC forum for 4 weeks. That's just crazy talk that 

[Level42]

O just one more thing. David's E-bay account vanished for some reason. I wonder why ?

And the last thing: take a look at RAM controls' site. Looks very pro to me and putting a picture of your (apparently) company's building places you out of the "hobby" manufacturer.....or at least you pretend to.

[shardian]

Dang people, chill out!

Anyone of you ever read about the Big Bang Bar pre-order? Hint, it was ALOT longer and ALOT more money than this.

Anyways, I find it crazy that the "slik stik" bug is being dragged over here. This guy has produced other repro stuff before, and his documented work so far for the yoke looks very impressive. It is being manufactured to original spec, but also improved on the design a bit to fix the wear and tear issues. The shear scope of this project is pretty darn impressive I must say. I am not an invested person here, but have followed the issue.

The guy is already offering invaluable rebuild kits for existing OEM yokes, which is pretty impressive in its own right. That right there is enough to quell talks of "smoke and mirrors".

I understand people being frustrated that were financially invested - that is totally understandable and they HAVE been able to get their money back if requested. In this specific case, I do feel the peanut gallery needs to back off.

Rant over.

[Level42]

Even four weeks incommunicado around the holiday season doesn't strike me as unreasonable. This opinion of mine is specific to this situation.

In normal situations I'd agree. But David KNOWS about all this and a regular update would at least be nice.

I really hope that one day I will have to offer my apologies to David and everyone else here because I was wrong.

[knave]

I understand people being frustrated that were financially invested - that is totally understandable and they HAVE been able to get their money back if requested. In this specific case, I do feel the peanut gallery needs to back off.

I so agree with this.

Please chill. 

[Daviea]

Guys....guys...

It seems to me that each time I make an update, I end up taking heat from someone, maybe even a few people.  Come on, this is a hobby and most of us know this.  Some of us are stressing way too much over this.  Level42, you and I had some words earlier in this topic and you mentioned that you hoped you had not been disrespectful to me.   I think you dove deep into the deep end of that territory with this last "rant" of yours.  Honestly, I can't understand your apparent hatred toward me.  Have I personally wronged you in some way?  Maybe this has something to do with being burned by someone else and you're taking it out on me?  Maybe it has something to do with Slik Stik.  I really don't have any idea what your problem is, but I don't appreciate the degrading comments.

I'm in this for the fun of it as are the majority of us.  I know that most here feel the same way I do about arcade games, so let's try to keep this as fun as possible and not let our panties get in a twist for no good reason.

Listen, I was in another country and I wasn't around to work on any projects related to RAM Controls.  End of story.  There's no need for speculation or delusions of conspiracy to defraud one dozen people of their pre-orders.

Txtworld made a good point, although it was wrapped up in a rather lousy package, IMO.  I'm starting to think that giving refunds to everyone regardless if they want one or not just may be the answer in all of this.  However, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't stop a few from finding something to complain about anyway.

For the record, I wasn't saying that people who are not doing business with me cannot have an opinion.  I think the message didn't come across right.  What I was trying to say is that I couldn't understand his inflammatory remarks because I didn't owe him money. 

Saint brought up a good point too.  Sometimes I think about the people who talk smack and consider why I'm doing this.  Each time this idea comes up, I tell myself that I enjoy this hobby and want to make it better for everyone.

Ok, so this project has taken far longer than anticipated.  Agreed.  And I am sitting on 12 preorders.  Agreed.  I really don't see how this makes me the messiah of evil or an arcade dealer on crack.  (btw, I'm surmising that last sentence based on some fairly harsh statements made in previous messages).  I very much disagree with people coming along and picking apart every last word of my updates and bastardizing them into some twisted message of ill-intent.  I think some people have far too much time on their hands and come to some really off the wall conclusions. 

This project will continue and I will finish it.  Anyone who has been following should be quite aware that I'm in way too deep not to finish it.  If my detailed progress on the website isn't enough to prove this to some degree, then there's no convincing you.  I've learned a harsh lesson here.  I will never again accept a pre-order for any ongoing project.  There's simply too much drama involved when the production process isn't absolutely perfect.  And yes, this is definitely grade A drama.  Little info on that subject:  the manufacturing business is anything but perfect.  Wish it wasn't so, but there you have it.

Ok, with all of this said, people will be happy to know that the powdercoating problem has been resolved.  We will have completed yokes available shortly.  And with that, I'm outta here.

Happy gaming, people.

David Adams
RAM Controls

[TPB]

Txtworld made a good point, although it was wrapped up in a rather lousy package, IMO.

David ... my apologies if the package came across as having a few rough edges ... but it's encouraging to see you agree with the thrust of the message.

I'm starting to think that giving refunds to everyone regardless if they want one or not just may be the answer in all of this.  However, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't stop a few from finding something to complain about anyway.

In this circumstance, they'd have no basis to make the slightest complaint ... not a whimper.

If you're solely investing your own money, no-one has any right to pressure you with progress updates.

people will be happy to know that the powdercoating problem has been resolved.  We will have completed yokes available shortly.  ... Happy gaming, people.

Great news ... music to all our ears.   

[u_rebelscum]

I'm starting to think that giving refunds to everyone regardless if they want one or not just may be the answer in all of this.  However, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't stop a few from finding something to complain about anyway.

In this circumstance, they'd have no basis to make the slightest complaint ... not a whimper.

If you're solely investing your own money, no-one has any right to pressure you with progress updates.

Nah, some people would find something to complain about no matter what.  I can think of two OTOMH, and am reluctant to post them here.  But I since mentioned of them, "what about the pre-order discount?", and "comparisons to vaporware".


But all I really have to say is, Dave keep up the awesome products, and "complete yoke soon"... yyyyes!!

[ratzz]

Hi David,

I’ve been following this thread with interest (as you know), and although I promised myself that I wouldn’t enter into it again, I felt I had to. You seem like a smart guy, and I can’t get my head round this whole situation.

Before I start, please remove yourself from the situation, and read below as one business man to another. I’ve been running my own company for many years, so I am well conversed in business ethics and practices – as I’m sure you are. It’s not a personal attack, its observations.

Firstly, I think you must admit that you made a big mistake taking 12+ pre-orders and not delivering the goods thus far. You are “sitting on” $2700+ of peoples hard earned cash, and seem surprised that you are getting flak. If you are a business man, I assume you have that cash stashed away in a high interest savings account making you a little bit of extra each month. Are people to be awarded this interest if they ask for a refund? It would only be earning interest in their savings account. If it’s been spent, then surely it should have been invested into the yoke.

Secondly, as this is a hobby to us here (and not to you – it ceased being a hobby for you when you took peoples money, so don’t soft-soap it), I assume that unless everyone who pre-ordered is loaded full of cash, it will have come out of monthly house keeping budgets, savings etc., that seems to be where ‘hobby’ money comes from – a little spare cash here and there. So, why haven’t you given this more priority?

Thirdly, why didn’t you develop a prototype before the pre-order. This would have made much more sense as you would have; firstly proved you could do it. Secondly, ironed out any manufacturing problems (and there seems to be many). Thirdly, given something for people to invest in that they can see - all people can see from your website is boxes of bolts and springs – hardly inspiring stuff. Forthly, saved you from all the abuse in other posts.

Also, what kind of response did you expect to get when you said that you’d been away for a month in Australia? People don’t care why you went, they maybe (and I’m included) stunned that you even mentioned it with all the delays you’ve (they’ve) suffered.

I think you are taking some of the posts too personally here, when really they are guided at protecting the BYOAC’s – let me explain. Recently a fellow arcade fanatic passed away, and although I’ve only been a member here for a few months, it seemed to send shockwaves round the whole community. I think some of the negative posts are to protect each other from making bad financial decisions – like SS.

My last question is, can you provide a firm, definite completion date to the “investors”, and stick to it. I’m sure that’s all they want – simple.

Regards

[saint]

*boggle*

[ahofle]

I guess bashing vendors on BYOAC is now the "in" thing to do after the SlikStik thread, especially when you have nothing to do with the vendor in the slightest.

[RetroGreg]

Wow. This forum is becoming more and more unfriendly to the vendors that are helping keep this hobby going strong. Noobs like me would not be able to enjoy it without these people. I think some people need to take a step back and realize what they are saying.

Dave probably shouldn't have taken the preorder money. Oh well. Get over it already. People make mistakes, and as he said himself, he is an enthusiast like the rest of us. This is his hobby as well.

I think the saying "Let the buyer beware" could go very far for people here. Always use a credit card for online purchases, and always know what your time limit is to cancel or contest any transaction you may be unsure about. If you go beyond that point, you are as much to blame in my book as the vendor because you are just plain stupid for putting your financial well being at risk in the hands of someone you truly do not know.

All the people who made the preorder knew the risk going into this.

I am not fopr people losing their money or getting ripped off, but common sense will help a lot in these type situations.

[quarterback]

My last question is, can you provide a firm, definite completion date to the “investors”, and stick to it. I’m sure that’s all they want – simple.

Dude, wtf?   Is everybody off their meds today?

If anybody who pre-paid wants their money, they can have it back.  He said that months ago.  In that time I've not heard that ANYbody here has gotten ripped off or not gotten the money back that they requested.    If you haven't put any money into this guy's hands, then quit making demands and telling him how to run his business, he can do whatever the hell he wants as can those who were part of the pre-order.   They're all adults who can decide if they do or do not want to wait.

[Level42]

1) I stand by my opinion on this matter. Even if the people who have pre-ordered will get the yoke within a month time from now, this was poorly handled. I have no business with David going on, but it sure DID back me out of ordering anything. This story and his e-bay history. I _do_ have an interest in the yoke parts he offers because I own a Star Wars. A was a possible customer.

2) David is right about the personal things in my posting. It was a long hard week last week for me and I was not in the best of moods. I should not have mixed my personal feelings into this. I should have maintained my standards on this forum. I regret loosing that over a matter that I am not directly involved in. I do apologise for that. The reason for this happening is probably that I have a strong feeling of justice and that I'm not scared to share my opinion. However, sharing my opinion should have been done without the personal things in that posting.

3) David did not respond to my remarks about his e-bay account. I would appreciate if he would clear things about that.

4) I sincerely hope that I am very wrong about my opinion in this matter and that I will have to take back my words. If the 12 who have pre-ordered receive their yoke "shortly" (let's say within 2 months time, I think that's reasonable enough)  I will change my opinion. No sooner.

[blueznl]

 

Call me stupid. (I'm used to that, got wife and kids, you see  )

But I don't understand this thread.

Those that did not pay the guy any money should take the backseat. What's their involvement? Minimal. What's their interest? Zero.

Those that did pay the guy and got the money back were treated well. I know a few cases where that did not happen...

Then the people who paid and did not ask for their money back... appearently they have sufficient trust in the future, okay.

Then, finally, the catagory that matters: people who asked their money back and did not get it. Now those are the ones and probably the only ones who can testify on the validity of the deal. Can those people please step forward and shine their light on the matter?

Then, perhaps, the rest of us (including me) better shut up. As we are, pretty much, not involved.

[Level42]

Those that did not pay the guy any money should take the backseat. What's their involvement? Minimal. What's their interest? Zero.

Read my last post again. I was a potential buyer of his products. That's my interest, I would have loved to get some parts for my SW yoke like any other SW owner.

[fatfingers]

OMG

[CheffoJeffo]

I guess bashing vendors on BYOAC is now the "in" thing to do after the SlikStik thread, especially when you have nothing to do with the vendor in the slightest.

* CheffoJeffo squirms uncomfortably in his chair, having been so vocal in the SS thread

I am definitely not comfortable if that behaviour is fallout from the SS thread, particularly since the situations are so very, very, very, very different.

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

[fixedpigs]

2) David is right about the personal things in my posting. It was a long hard week last week for me and I was not in the best of moods.

hey level42...tell us all about your long hard week last week...what made it so hard for you...?
what caused you to not be in the best of moods...?

oh wait...nevermind...i have no interest in badgering you to find out all the personal details of your life...

3) David did not respond to my remarks about his e-bay account. I would appreciate if he would clear things about that.

see directly above...

[Level42]

2) is personal

3) is business

[fixedpigs]

3) has nothing to do with star wars flight yokes...

[Level42]

It has to do about how David conducts in business.

He has been offering SW yoke repair kits on e-bay before. So this IS related.

[fixedpigs]

 

so go ahead and tell us what happened to you last week...since that's about how you conduct your thread posting...

 

[Level42]

You lost me.

[TPB]

I should just let saint speak for himself

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

It's pretty easy to agree with the forum owner and moderator.

You're never going to lose any friends by doing that.

Having said that, I also agree with Saint's comments - he's offered some worthwhile insights ...

... but, for as long as people have their money tied up in this project (albeit voluntarily tied up, as David has properly offered refunds upon request), then their opinions should be given the highest weighting.

To that end, let's give the microphone to Havok.

He's cool with patiently waiting, as he's looking forword to receiving his awesome, brand-spanking new, exact replica Star Wars yoke.  And good on him.   

There's just a few things he's requested :

* An update to the project blog (it was last updated on May 20, 2007).

* A completion to the project that occurs "soon".

* Regular communication of status and progress.

Let me just state for the record, as long as there is progress and communication, I'm cool with David. Now that he has posted again I feel much better about this transaction. However, with that said, I do want to see some real progress. I understand this is a side endeavor, and Real Life(tm) can interfere, so as long is there is a completion to the project (and at this point it should be soon), I'm fine. I am eagerly awaiting David's update on tonight's visit to the shop.

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

Hehe - yeah, I would have preferred to have it back in Feb 07...

However, I understand that this is a fairly monumental undertaking, and can deal with the delay - I've just got my eye on the prize...

[TPB]

David,

I presume this control has many applications beyond Star Wars ...

It could be used to play 270 driving games, such as Spy Hunter.

And it's effectively an analogue joystick, right ??  So this opens up a multitude of other games that could be played.

 

David,

I realise it's premature to ask this, but ...

Would it be possible, down the track, to offer a version of the SW yoke with 4 independent button inputs, connected to 4 independent switches ??

Apart from wiring modifications, no physical alterations to the construction of the yoke would be necessary, given there are already 4 buttons on the yoke (2 trigger buttons, and 2 thumb buttons).

By offering 4 independent button inputs, the yoke would be vastly more adaptable to other games (specifically, 270 driving games, and analogue joystick games), which vastly increases its potential.

Games such as Spy Hunter, while being a 270 driving game (a genre ideally suited to the yoke), require multiple button inputs.  The standard single button input, on the standard SW yoke, just won't cut it with "multi button" games.  But with 4 independent buttons on the yoke, suddenly all these games become playable with this awesome controller.   

And to play the simpler, single button games (such as Star Wars itself), well, it's possible to map 4 different buttons to the same action in the game, so 4 independent buttons could be mapped to the same "fire" action when playing Star Wars.

This would make what shall already be an awesome controller, even better.   

[Level42]

SW yoke buttons ARE all separate, even if SW doesn't use it.

ESB does make difference between buttons.

Fast forward to 4:30 to see the test screen. All four buttons are separately indicated there.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=OvaSxKpfMzM[/youtube]

[TPB]

SW yoke buttons ARE all separate, even if SW doesn't use it.

ESB does make difference between buttons.

Fast forward to 4:30 to see the test screen. All four buttons are separately indicated there.

Sweet !!   

For 270 driving games, apart from having the X axis for steering, you can use the Y axis for the gas pedal (acceleration), and have 4 independent button inputs to boot.

For other games, you've got a 4 button analogue joystick, with fine degrees of analogue control.

[CheffoJeffo]

I should just let saint speak for himself

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

It's pretty easy to agree with the forum owner and moderator.

You're never going to lose any friends by doing that.

Yeah, that's me ... the consumate suck-up ... always doing thing to make the mods happy

 

[TPB]

Yeah, that's me ... the consumate suck-up ... always doing thing to make the mods happy

 

LOL ... while lazing back on your sunchair, with your tequila in hand.   

Hey, Saint had some wise words for all, so why wouldn't you, or I, agree with them ??

[saint]

Yeah, that's me ... the consumate suck-up ... always doing thing to make the mods happy

 

Gosh if that's your goal you suck at it.

[FrizzleFried]

I've not chimed in...and well...I am sick...so screw it...I will.

Facts:

(A) Dude took pre-orders

(B) Dude offered money back to anyone who wanted it for their pre-orders

(C) Where's the issue?  If you want your dough back,  get it back.  If you don't,  then that money IS disposable income that isn't sorely missed and you are willing to WAIT until the product arrives.

Everyone else should back off.   It's not like the guy took the dough and ran.   He's had a long-standing policy of returning the dough to anyone who wants it back.   Now,  I think I read that there are some who want their dough back but haven't gotten it?  If that is true,  THEY are the only ones who have any kind of ---smurfette---...the rest need to chill out.

Level...I know  you don't want the whole new yoke,  right?  Well then,  buy a SW rebuild kit from videogameparts.com and be done with it if you are concerned with this dudes business practices.

I don't see people bitching at Mattel because the new kickass HE-MAN action figure that was supposed to be out by now (purely fictional example for the Masters of the Universe fans out there) isn't out.  I don't see people posting messages chewing the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of 3d Realms because Duke friggin' Nukem Forever hasn't been published (for the last 10 damn years).

What it comes down to is that NO ONE... not even POTENTIAL customers...aside from those who pre-paid and want their money back...have a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- thing to ---smurfette--- about.   You look like a bunch of --bags of cream-filled twinkies-- doing so.

...and I say that with love because you all know that I pretty much dig every last one of you.

CHILL OUT...

sheesh.

[quarterback]

I should just let saint speak for himself

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

It's pretty easy to agree with the forum owner and moderator.

FYI, that post you quoted was not me just agreeing with the moderator.  That was an edited post which I edited so I wouldn't fan any flames here and also because I am not one to speak for saint.  Because I edited my post within the first minute of posting (or whatever the timeout period is) it did not indicate that it had been edited but, in fact, it had been.

The post, prior to editing, basically explained what (I believed) saint was saying in his previous posts.   Level42 clearly didn't get it, so I was explaining it.  I did so in a bit of a sarastic manner and decided after posting that (a) I didn't need to be nasty and (b) I didn't need to explain saint's posts. 

[TPB]

FYI, that post you quoted was not me just agreeing with the moderator.  That was an edited post which I edited so I wouldn't fan any flames here and also because I am not one to speak for saint.  Because I edited my post within the first minute of posting (or whatever the timeout period is) it did not indicate that it had been edited but, in fact, it had been.

The post, prior to editing, basically explained what (I believed) saint was saying in his previous posts.   Level42 clearly didn't get it, so I was explaining it.  I did so in a bit of a sarastic manner and decided after posting that (a) I didn't need to be nasty and (b) I didn't need to explain saint's posts. 

OK quarterback.

I reckon this yoke, once completed, has great potential.

Apart from its playability advantages, it'll be a giant mother of a control, which shall take pride of place in the centre of any panel upon which it's mounted.

 

[rovingmind]

actually they aren't that big.  pretty much all of the steering wheels are larger.  Any board mounted gun control is also larger.  Physical layout takes up as much space as a trackball.  (the entire trackball undermount)   

But WHAT a way to take up that space Huh???  heh heh heh.

[Havok]

** Havok is playing Star Wars while patiently waiting **

Soon...

[rovingmind]

I play it with a Saitek cyborg joystick, the first usb model that was still adjustable.  It works but not as good as a full cockpit.   

[Time Pilot]

Just popping in as another dude on the pre-order list.

I personally see no reason to complain.  Things take longer sometimes.  Id rather have David take longer and get it right.  I see no problem with the pre-order either.  If you can get your money back, what's the problem?  Need your money- get it back.  Need a yoke faster for a special project- hit Ebay.  Why harass the guy?  How about encouraging him?

Seems lucky that we have sources for parts and new products for this great hobby- Andy at Ultimarc, Randy at GGG...  Having people connected with this hobby who also have the resources and time to design and manufacture this stuff is grand.     

I'm certainly looking forward to the completion of the yoke- it will open up something entirely new on my cab. 

Ahhh, perhaps a round of Centipede...   

[Level42]

I intended not to reply in this thread anymore for the coming two months (or if anyone of you received their yoke), but I can't help it.

How do I say this in a respectful and business like manor ?

Andy & Randy:

1) Release new products when they're ready to order
2) Have outstanding communications both in e-mail and this forum
3) Are examples of how a business in arcade parts should be run

'nuff said.

[MaximRecoil]

I don't see the problem either. Has anyone been denied a refund on their pre-order money?

[dirt]

I don't see the problem either. Has anyone been denied a refund on their pre-order money?

no they haven't. that is why i dont understand why these guys are making a big stink and demanding answers like david owes them something. he doesn't owe them anything. he can run his business as he wants, they can choose to buy from him or not to buy from him. they dont have the right to demand anything until they THEMSELVES send david some money.

now dont get this wrong, they can ASK all the questions they want. in fact that is what a smart buyer does. but demanding anything is just not their place.

[TAG]

1) Release new products when they're ready to order

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order.  That's why they're called "pre-orders," right?  He sure whet everyone's appetite, but he never claimed that they were ready to ship when he made the original announcement.

I'm very much looking forward to buying one of these when they're done, and I'm willing to pay the extra that goes along with waiting.  That is, assuming that David is still willing to sell them, given all the negativity that's been slung his way.

[rovingmind]

i would have been willing to put in a preorder at the initial release, i would have been willing to preorder 3 months ago.  I would still be willing to preorder now.  The only reason i havnt is quite simply i havnt the money to tie up that way.  I have to wait until finances AND availability show up at the same time.

[TPB]

I'm looking forward to the completion of this controller, which has real potential.

It will make a great addition to any panel.

But let's not pretend there was never a communication issue.

**  Mamemaster pulled the plug on his pre-order, and received a refund, after complaining on BYOAC (read his posts in this thread).

... full marks to David on giving Mamemaster his refund.   

**  Havok, while patiently waiting on his yoke (great to see), was feeling pretty disillusioned recently, by the lack of communication (read his posts in this thread).


Those who don't believe that someone running a business has an obligation to communicate with their customers, after accepting their cash ... that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.   

[TPB]

Regarding the myth being perpetuated by some, that there was "never any prior indication, that the pre-order folks would receive their product anytime soon" ...

1) Release new products when they're ready to order

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

Refer to :  http://www.ram-controls.com/

[February 9, 2007]  02/09/07 - Star Wars yoke pre-sale now open here.  Complete unit nearing completion.

... what's your definition of "Complete unit nearing completion", which was proclaimed almost a year ago ??


Also refer to the Star Wares project blog.  Havok is patiently awaiting an update to it (read his posts in this thread), but it still hasn't been updated since May 20, 2007 ... he's not asking for weekly updates, or anything like that ... but it's been over 8 months since the last update :

http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-sw.html

[Havok]

Hang on a sec there - David did state there were legal issues involved with him separating from a partner in the business, and he does not have control of the website any more, hence the lack of updates there. David has been giving updates here, and via personal emails, so I'm good now. I just got concerned when there was nothing for a straight month, but with the latest updates I'm ok. Now that David has stated he has overcome the powder coating problem, I would think we are just about done waiting. Why don't we all take a month off this thread and check back then? I would think that would be enough time to finish...

[TPB]

OK Havok.

My misunderstanding.

I wasn't aware there were legal issues with updating the website.


A few days ago, you had requested a blog update :

... I am eagerly awaiting David's update on tonight's visit to the shop. ...

This new information, (loss of control of the website), doesn't invalidate anything I've said, apart from the lack of update to the project blog.  For that, I apologise to David.   

However, he had control of the website on February 9, 2007, when he proclaimed "Complete unit nearing completion".


I just hope though ...

If he's lost control of the website, it's not a good sign.

I just hope he hasn't lost control of the rest of the business.   

[dirt]

and thats why yo uhave no business speaking for other people when you dot even have the whole story. DUDE, LET IT GO!!!!

[Havok]

A few days ago, you had requested a blog update :

... I am eagerly awaiting David's update on tonight's visit to the shop. ...

I didn't mention anything about a blog update, just an update from David, which he did post here stating that he has overcome the powdercoating issue...

and thats why you have no business speaking for other people when you dot even have the whole story. DUDE, LET IT GO!!!!

I do have to agree - let's back off for a bit and see what happens. I believe that David is operating in good faith, and that this will happen. It's like he said, this is a side operation, not his main business, when when the real work gets backed up, the side stuff is put on hold.

Let's give it a month and see where David is at then. Hopefully by then, I'll have a shiny new yoke in hand that I can sleep at night with when not using in my cabinet...

 

[TPB]

... Why don't we all take a month off this thread and check back then? I would think that would be enough time to finish...

Good idea Havok ... if we all agree to give this thread a breather, to give David the time he needs to finish the project, that's totally agreeable with me.

I had nothing more to say, until I read this ... this statement just "couldn't be left to pass by" without scrutiny :   

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

... if anyone wants to argue the affirmative case for that remark, go right ahead, in the context of David's proclamation on his website, "Complete unit nearing completion", on February 9, 2007.

David's now given some progress updates, which is terrific.  But it's pointless to pretend there was "never" an issue with communication.


Havok, you agreed there was an indication that completed product would be available within a forseeable timeframe after the pre-order date, assuming you haven't also changed your position on this remark :

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

Hehe - yeah, I would have preferred to have it back in Feb 07...

MameMaster felt likewise :

Havok...did you get your $$ back? He gave me a refund months ago when I complained about this here at BYOAC.

I too am bummed by this. I really wanted one and even wrote up an interview with him that was supposed to hit the March 2007 (last year) GameRoom magazine.

 

[Chris]

Has this just become a matter of getting the last word in now?

[Havok]

Havok, you agreed there was an indication that completed product would be available within a forseeable timeframe after the pre-order date, assuming you haven't also changed your position on this remark :

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

Hehe - yeah, I would have preferred to have it back in Feb 07...

You're reading too much into my statement - I just want everything now...

 

[TPB]

Havok,

Do you still have Randy in mind for "Plan B" ?   


New Product: TurboTwist High-Low™ - Arcade Up/Down Spinner - GroovyGameGear

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74483.msg782999#msg782999

No no no - his next project is a Star Wars yoke, since RAM Controls is MIA...

[FrizzleFried]

...is it me or is txtworld "piling on"?  I am guessing he's an Springer fan being he seems so "in to" drama...

[saint]

Havok,

Do you still have Randy in mind for "Plan B" ?   


New Product: TurboTwist High-Low™ - Arcade Up/Down Spinner - GroovyGameGear

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74483.msg782999#msg782999

No no no - his next project is a Star Wars yoke, since RAM Controls is MIA...

GIVE IT A FREAKING BREAK ALREADY!

Please. Pretty please, with sugar on top. Give it a freaking break, unless there's really something to add that isn't just another "no no my point of view is right everyone listen to me!" 

[TPB]

All right.

Let's accept this argument :

There was no reason for this thread.

This thread should never have been created, nor continued.

Havok should never have made those multitude of posts.

Havok had no valid reason to make those posts - there was never an issue with David's communication with him.

The only reason Havok made those posts, is that he's a neurotic and paranoid nut, who flip flops around, his opinion swaying whichever way the wind blows.   

Is that what we're meant to believe here ??

Either Havok had a valid reason to make those posts, or he didn't.


Which is it ??

[TPB]

Anyone's free to lodge a supporting argument for this comment. 

Pity no-one's prepared to do that.

I guess it's easier to just attack the messenger, and pull down the shutters on this thread.

So, let's all just accept this as "fact" :

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

[MaximRecoil]

All right.

Let's accept this argument :

There was no reason for this thread.

This thread should never have been created, nor continued.

Havok should never have made those multitude of posts.

Havok had no valid reason to make those posts - there was never an issue with David's communication with him.

The only reason Havok made those posts, is that he's a neurotic and paranoid nut, who flip flops around, his opinion swaying whichever way the wind blows.

Is that what we're meant to believe here ??

Either Havok had a valid reason to make those posts, or he didn't.


Which is it ??

Is there any particular reason why you think you are Havok's spokesman?

[TPB]

Is there any particular reason why you think you are Havok's spokesman?

Havok made the posts.

And Havok's free to answer that question.

Havok ??

[MaximRecoil]

Is there any particular reason why you think you are Havok's spokesman?

Havok made the posts.

And Havok's free to answer that question.

Havok ??

Good grief. Havok already answered, a few times. Here is his latest answer:

I do have to agree - let's back off for a bit and see what happens. I believe that David is operating in good faith, and that this will happen. It's like he said, this is a side operation, not his main business, when when the real work gets backed up, the side stuff is put on hold.

Let's give it a month and see where David is at then. Hopefully by then, I'll have a shiny new yoke in hand that I can sleep at night with when not using in my cabinet...

 

What do those words that he typed in standard English mean to you? Apparently something different than they mean to everyone else...

[TAG]

Anyone's free to lodge a supporting argument for this comment. 

Pity no-one's prepared to do that.

I guess it's easier to just attack the messenger, and pull down the shutters on this thread.

So, let's all just accept this as "fact" :

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

I didn't respond because I was under the impression that everyone was ready to let this whole "debate" go.   Apparently, most everyone else is.

At any rate, I maintain that *IN MY OPINION* David didn't mislead anyone with the whole pre-order business, as it was clear from the moment the project was announced that there was no guarantee as to when they'd be ready.  And he never said, "Hey' they're done and ready to ship," then failed to send them out.  Never.   That's what I meant by the "the yokes were ready to be released upon order" comment.  Seemed clear to me at the time, still seems clear now.

Of course, YMMV.  Obviously.

[rovingmind]

ok people. STOP!!!!   Please

This is the thread i'm watching for RELEASE INFORMATION on this project. 

QUIT before it gets sent to PNR or POST HELL

You've already pissed off Saint, and it sounds like his banning finger is getting itchy.

go to politics if you want to and create a bash this project thread THERE.

This isnt Havoks thread, its David's thread about a project most of us want or need.

[TPB]

MaximRecoil,

The point is, there were valid issues.

There was a valid reason for this thread.

Those issues have since been remedied - great !!

Three cheers to David, for responding in the appropriate manner.   

So, now, we can all give this thread a break.

But there a procession of fanboi's who keep coming along in this thread, insisting there was never a valid reason for this thread in the first instance, and there was never any issue to discuss.

You can't just rewrite the facts, whichever way they suit you.


Another matter ... Saint, I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.

Saint, are you prepared to personally financially reimburse the pre-order folks, if they end up "high & dry" without their money ?? ... this is not likely to happen, as David has (to his great credit) previously honoured commitments to provide refunds ... but, by his own admission, he's currently in a legal dispute with a business partner, and has lost control of his website as a result ... in these circumstances, anything can eventuate.

Now, of course I'll get flamed by all and sundry for making these comments (heaven forbid, to dare to voice an opinion in disagreement with the forum owner and moderator).

So ... go right ahead, guys.

Dirt ... throw some more dirt in my direction.  Knock yourself out.   

[TPB]

it was clear from the moment the project was announced that there was no guarantee as to when they'd be ready.

I don't need to say a word.

David speaks for himself, loud and clear :

[February 9, 2007]  02/09/07 - Star Wars yoke pre-sale now open here.  Complete unit nearing completion.

[polaris]

 

[TPB]

I like that !!   


A bit of comic relief is in good order.

[fatfingers]

unsubscribe

[saint]

Holy crap, do you not get it? You're entitle to your opinion, and on this forum you're entitled to post it. But you're posting the same bloody opinion time after time after time, with nothing new of any substance. The horse is dead man. Quit beating it. You've gone from "I have an opinion and here it is" to "I HAVE AN OPINION AND I'M GOING TO BLOODY WELL BEAT IT DOWN YOUR THROAT UNTIL YOU ALL AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT DAMNIT ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME YET?"

Bah.

--- saint

All right.

Let's accept this argument :

There was no reason for this thread.

This thread should never have been created, nor continued.

Havok should never have made those multitude of posts.

Havok had no valid reason to make those posts - there was never an issue with David's communication with him.

The only reason Havok made those posts, is that he's a neurotic and paranoid nut, who flip flops around, his opinion swaying whichever way the wind blows.   

Is that what we're meant to believe here ??

Either Havok had a valid reason to make those posts, or he didn't.


Which is it ??

[TPB]

Saint,

As mentioned above :

I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.   


Are you prepared to personally financially reimburse the pre-order folks, if they end up "high & dry" without their money ?? ... this is not likely to happen, as David has (to his great credit) previously honoured commitments to provide refunds ... but, by his own admission, he's currently in a legal dispute with a business partner, and has lost control of his website as a result ... in these circumstances, anything can eventuate.

[patrickl]

Saint,

As mentioned above :

I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.   

He just wants to to stop repeating the same thing over and over. We know it already.

You're so full of how other people should behave. Maybe you should look at your own conduct first.

[saint]

MaximRecoil,
Another matter ... Saint, I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.

I'm fully entitled to an opinion and I'll post it when I feel the need, thank you. If that disappoints you I'll have to live with it.

Saint, are you prepared to personally financially reimburse the pre-order folks, if they end up "high & dry" without their money ?? ... this is not likely to happen, as David has (to his great credit) previously honoured commitments to provide refunds ... but, by his own admission, he's currently in a legal dispute with a business partner, and has lost control of his website as a result ... in these circumstances, anything can eventuate.

Uh... *boggle* ?  This question is so goofy I don't know where to start to answer it...

Now, of course I'll get flamed by all and sundry for making these comments (heaven forbid, to dare to voice an opinion in disagreement with the forum owner and moderator).

Now this is the only thing that pisses me off. People disagree with me all the time -- the only thing that is guaranteed to piss me off is to insinuate that disagreeing with me gets you punished somehow. I bend over bloody backwards to not let that happen, taking abuse I frankly don't deserve.

[markrvp]

I'm a member of a couple of other forums for another of my hobbies.  On those boards I've seen guys get banned for being far less of an ---uvula--- than txtworld.  I think he needs a timeout as he has shown both in this thread and the SlikStik thread that his sole M.O. is to rabble rouse.  Take that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- somewhere else.

Saint has shown remarkable restraint.  I think he is well within his rights to give txtworld a swift "E-kick" in the ass.

[markrvp]

A couple of years ago a very well respected member of this community planned to offer a specialized Joystick that nobody else offered.  He took pre-orders for the items for no other reason than to insure that he just wasn't jerking off by making these joysticks.  I pre-ordered two of them.

Long story short, he kept having problems finding someone to machine the parts he needed.  He asked me several times over the course of a year if I wanted a refund.  I repeatedly told him no, that I would prefer to have the joysticks if he could ever get the project done (I think I paid him $120 or so).  Finally after a year, he gave up on the project through no fault of his own and refunded my money.  No hard feelings.

The point is, nobody is going to get rich making stuff for this hobby, so we agree to be patient with others who are willing to create specialty parts for us.  It may turn out that these yokes never get made, but I pretty sure the 12 people who have prepaid would rather wait awhile in the hopes the get a yoke, than just be ---uvulas--- and berate the maker. 

[TPB]

Saint, are you prepared to personally financially reimburse the pre-order folks, if they end up "high & dry" without their money ?? ... this is not likely to happen, as David has (to his great credit) previously honoured commitments to provide refunds ... but, by his own admission, he's currently in a legal dispute with a business partner, and has lost control of his website as a result ... in these circumstances, anything can eventuate.

Uh... *boggle* ?  This question is so goofy I don't know where to start to answer it...

Saint,

My point is ...

Your opinion is coming from a position of authority, rather than just "from the masses" like the rest of us.

In your position, there is a duty of care, to be certain you don't misuse that authority.

What if hypothetically, the pre-order folks had a chance to get their money back (as MameMaster has already done), but didn't take that chance, as they relied on your assurances, as a voice of authority, that all would be OK ??  What, then, if it eventuates they end up out-of-pocket down the track ??

Hopefully that scenario will never eventuate, but if it did ...

Would this sit well on your conscience ??   

Now, of course I'll get flamed by all and sundry for making these comments (heaven forbid, to dare to voice an opinion in disagreement with the forum owner and moderator).

Now this is the only thing that pisses me off. People disagree with me all the time -- the only thing that is guaranteed to piss me off is to insinuate that disagreeing with me gets you punished somehow. I bend over bloody backwards to not let that happen, taking abuse I frankly don't deserve.

Saint, you've misinterpreted my comments.

I was not referring to you taking offence at me voicing a dissenting opinion ... I realise, and respect, that you're big enough to take that.   

What I was referring to, are the masses of fanboi's (and there's plenty of them), the "yes men" who always agree, unreservedly, with everything you say ... they would see it as a punishable offence that I "dare" voice an opinion dissenting from your own.

[Havok]

Well said, Markrvp...

 

Txtworld, give it a rest - Saint is right. One question for you, however, did you pre-order a yoke? I'm just wondering what your stake in all this is, and why it has you so fired up? David is a known vendor here, and has produced excellent products in the past: Atari cones, 4.5" trackballs, Major Havok rollers, yoke rebuild kits. Granted his last batch of orders was slow to be shipped, but that all happened during his separation from a business partner, so it is understandable with all his distractions. Plus, it seems his job can take him offsite for a fairly long time at a clip, which can further set back his projects. In light of this, we all need to give him a little slack. In the end, everyone that has dealt with him got their stuff, and everyone that has, is impressed with the build quality.

To distract you a bit, check out this link:

Txtworld's Forum

 

P.S. - if you get an off limits message, just ask Saint for access...

[saint]

Saint,

My point is ...

Your opinion is coming from a position of authority, rather than just "from the masses" like the rest of us.

I'm just the librarian here. The only authority I claim are the rules of the forum.

In your position, there is a duty of care, to be certain you don't misuse that authority.

Hence I don't ban people for disagreeing with me. I'm still entitled to my opinion.

What if hypothetically, the pre-order folks had a chance to get their money back (as MameMaster has already done), but didn't take that chance, as they relied on your assurances, as a voice of authority, that all would be OK ??  What, then, if it eventuates they end up out-of-pocket down the track ??

Hopefully that scenario will never eventuate, but if it did ...

Would this sit well on your conscience ??   

Yes, I believe I would be fine. I would certainly feel bad for anyone getting stiffed, but I would not feel guilty.

Saint, you've misinterpreted my comments.

I was not referring to you taking offence at me voicing a dissenting opinion ... I realise, and respect, that you're big enough to take that.   

Glad to hear it - it's my only real hot button.

What I was referring to, are the masses of fanboi's (and there's plenty of them), the "yes men" who always agree, unreservedly, with everything you say ... they would see it as a punishable offense that I "dare" voice an opinion dissenting from your own.

You'll have to introduce me to them, I've always wanted my own fan club. I haven't met anyone who agrees unreservedly with everything I say. Humor aside, I don't believe anyone would jump on you for daring to jump on me. They may very well disagree with you and agree with me on this point, and I think it's unfair to dismiss their opinions as simply sticking up for me.

At any rate, my point is that your point's been made. I don't see you saying anything new, I just see you saying it again. After a couple of times the thread is just arguing and the point of the thread is lost. I believe you're actually doing more to dissuade people from your point of view by continuing than you would be if you stated it once or twice then let it go.

YMMV

--- saint


--- saint

[rovingmind]

Can I be a "Yes Man"?i......    who is saint actually? i have a book he wrote, and noticed a few posts, never met the guy myself. 

Would i have to attend parties or something?  As a "yes Man" `would i Get to test nifty new arcade items for free?  I'm game for parties as long as daycare is available and there is a goodly supply of mixers.  Is there a "BYOAC YES MAN" button?  Would i get discounts anywhere?

[TPB]

... why it has you so fired up? ...

Havok,

You've had a complete reversal of opinion ... no less than 180 degree's.

You'll find that you were the first to "spout your mouth off" in this thread ... before I had uttered a "single word" on the matter :

I'm not optimistic - I sent David an email 3 weeks ago, and no response. Also, he hasn't been on here since December 7th, at least logged in that is...

 

Do I need to re-list your multitude of other quotes in the same vein ... such as making a request for RandyT to make the yoke ??


Next time, if you don't want to start a debate about something ...

Think first, before you shoot from the hip.

[rovingmind]

that wasnt the first round of spout offs, the first came after the problems with the blog updates back in May.

[TPB]

that wasnt the first round of spout offs, the first came after the problems with the blog updates back in May.

Yes, you're right.

There were prior rounds of "spout off's".

And then Havok joined them.

My point is, I wasn't motivated to join this discussion, until I had read Havok's aggrieved posts.


I only joined the discussion in this thread a couple of weeks ago.

Others, including Havok (before his 180 degree turn), were the first to raise their concerns.

[rovingmind]

-edit, NM now i'm doing it.

no more comments until theres an update from David

[dirt]

My point is, I wasn't motivated to join this discussion, until I had read Havok's aggrieved posts.

i think what EVERYONE is asking is how do we get you to UNmotivate yourself to continue with this discussion.

will you really die if you dont have the last word? at this point you are just trolling. if i had the power saint has you would have already had a time out.

[TPB]

I knew the dirt was on its way.   

I really don't know what you have against me ... I've never made a negative comment towards you.

You had plenty to say in the SlikStik thread.

As did I, which was warranted given SlikStik's conduct.

However, I never voiced any support for a boycott of Scott or Mameroom's products.

In fact, quite the opposite, you'll find I encouraged FrizzleFried and Missioncontrol to drop that silly "Birds of a Feather" banner, from the footer of their posts.

FrizzleFried has since accepted my advice in this regard (to his credit) ... Missioncontrol is still holding out.

And I copped plenty of criticism in making that request (that they drop that banner from their posts) ... I even received PM's advising me of "caution" in supporting Scott or Mameroom, and giving me "tip off's" in regards to Scott's supposed history on this forum.

to mameroom: i am sorry i had to make this decesion but i can not help support someone who scams people out of their money. if and when you stop using christians panels please let me know and i would be happy to do business with you.

[dirt]

so i guess the answer is yes, you will die unless you get the last word.

btw what in the hell does the other thread have to do with this situation? and its kinda convenient you didn't post the second half of my discussion with scott when he cut ties with christian. i told him i would be ordering from him as soon as he was caught up with the orders he has. im done with you. your a troll.

[TPB]

your a troll.

Dirt,

You seem pretty keen upon getting in the last word yourself.

Go for it, throw some more dirt.   

At least I've taken the heat away from ratzz & Level42.   


Though, I have one small request ...

Now that you've resorted to name calling ...

At least have the courtesy to do it in a literate manner.


What are you, 12 years old ??   

[saint]

Feh. Last word is mine.

[SirPeale]

Feh. Last word is mine.

Yup!

[NIVO]

Agreed