RAM Controls - Star Wars Flight Yoke

[Level42]

?

[quarterback]

EDIT
nm

I should just let saint speak for himself

[crummy]

Ahhhh, the lost son returns after vanishing without a word ! Hooray !! He was in Sydney for a month (I wonder on who's money ?). No, that explains a lot. We all know that Australia is still not yet connected to the internet, so it was impossible for him to give a shout from down-under. Figures.

He was probably in Australia on holiday.

[Level42]

If you own a business and go on holiday for a month, you do not keep out of touch.

[knave]

He was probably in Australia on holiday.

I don't always check my Email while on holiday...(do we know all the details or are we guessing?) 

[saint]

?

I thought your post was pretty harsh. Putting in your money in a pre-buy is a speculative investment, with Dave offering a refund if asked for. It's not the same as buying an already developed product and then not getting it. The time frame sure has been long but I don't think anyone's being screwed here and I don't think he deserved the vitriol.

Like many, he's doing it as a hobby business in his spare time. Posts like that would make me second-guess myself as to why I was even bothering, were I in his shoes.  At the least, he's the third person/business to make a go at doing a repro-yoke, with none currently available, so obviously it's a bit of a tough nut to crack and make affordable yet profitable. I'd hate to see someone chased off whose willing to attempt it.

Even four weeks incommunicado around the holiday season doesn't strike me as unreasonable. This opinion of mine is specific to this situation.

--- saint

[Level42]

OK guys, I actually amazed myself about getting so anxious about this. I guess it's the slick talk going on and on that irritates me. And people keeping hanging on to that slick talk.

I'm no stranger here and I never get into this kind of rants, so I can't explain really what made me de-rail.....

But it now dawns upon me: what do I care ? I'm not involved with any of this.

I won't edit out my posting though. If you guys want to flame me, take your turn.

[patrickl]

Even four weeks incommunicado around the holiday season doesn't strike me as unreasonable.

I cannot believe someone would go without the BYOAC forum for 4 weeks. That's just crazy talk that 

[Level42]

O just one more thing. David's E-bay account vanished for some reason. I wonder why ?

And the last thing: take a look at RAM controls' site. Looks very pro to me and putting a picture of your (apparently) company's building places you out of the "hobby" manufacturer.....or at least you pretend to.

[shardian]

Dang people, chill out!

Anyone of you ever read about the Big Bang Bar pre-order? Hint, it was ALOT longer and ALOT more money than this.

Anyways, I find it crazy that the "slik stik" bug is being dragged over here. This guy has produced other repro stuff before, and his documented work so far for the yoke looks very impressive. It is being manufactured to original spec, but also improved on the design a bit to fix the wear and tear issues. The shear scope of this project is pretty darn impressive I must say. I am not an invested person here, but have followed the issue.

The guy is already offering invaluable rebuild kits for existing OEM yokes, which is pretty impressive in its own right. That right there is enough to quell talks of "smoke and mirrors".

I understand people being frustrated that were financially invested - that is totally understandable and they HAVE been able to get their money back if requested. In this specific case, I do feel the peanut gallery needs to back off.

Rant over.

[Level42]

Even four weeks incommunicado around the holiday season doesn't strike me as unreasonable. This opinion of mine is specific to this situation.

In normal situations I'd agree. But David KNOWS about all this and a regular update would at least be nice.

I really hope that one day I will have to offer my apologies to David and everyone else here because I was wrong.

[knave]

I understand people being frustrated that were financially invested - that is totally understandable and they HAVE been able to get their money back if requested. In this specific case, I do feel the peanut gallery needs to back off.

I so agree with this.

Please chill. 

[Daviea]

Guys....guys...

It seems to me that each time I make an update, I end up taking heat from someone, maybe even a few people.  Come on, this is a hobby and most of us know this.  Some of us are stressing way too much over this.  Level42, you and I had some words earlier in this topic and you mentioned that you hoped you had not been disrespectful to me.   I think you dove deep into the deep end of that territory with this last "rant" of yours.  Honestly, I can't understand your apparent hatred toward me.  Have I personally wronged you in some way?  Maybe this has something to do with being burned by someone else and you're taking it out on me?  Maybe it has something to do with Slik Stik.  I really don't have any idea what your problem is, but I don't appreciate the degrading comments.

I'm in this for the fun of it as are the majority of us.  I know that most here feel the same way I do about arcade games, so let's try to keep this as fun as possible and not let our panties get in a twist for no good reason.

Listen, I was in another country and I wasn't around to work on any projects related to RAM Controls.  End of story.  There's no need for speculation or delusions of conspiracy to defraud one dozen people of their pre-orders.

Txtworld made a good point, although it was wrapped up in a rather lousy package, IMO.  I'm starting to think that giving refunds to everyone regardless if they want one or not just may be the answer in all of this.  However, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't stop a few from finding something to complain about anyway.

For the record, I wasn't saying that people who are not doing business with me cannot have an opinion.  I think the message didn't come across right.  What I was trying to say is that I couldn't understand his inflammatory remarks because I didn't owe him money. 

Saint brought up a good point too.  Sometimes I think about the people who talk smack and consider why I'm doing this.  Each time this idea comes up, I tell myself that I enjoy this hobby and want to make it better for everyone.

Ok, so this project has taken far longer than anticipated.  Agreed.  And I am sitting on 12 preorders.  Agreed.  I really don't see how this makes me the messiah of evil or an arcade dealer on crack.  (btw, I'm surmising that last sentence based on some fairly harsh statements made in previous messages).  I very much disagree with people coming along and picking apart every last word of my updates and bastardizing them into some twisted message of ill-intent.  I think some people have far too much time on their hands and come to some really off the wall conclusions. 

This project will continue and I will finish it.  Anyone who has been following should be quite aware that I'm in way too deep not to finish it.  If my detailed progress on the website isn't enough to prove this to some degree, then there's no convincing you.  I've learned a harsh lesson here.  I will never again accept a pre-order for any ongoing project.  There's simply too much drama involved when the production process isn't absolutely perfect.  And yes, this is definitely grade A drama.  Little info on that subject:  the manufacturing business is anything but perfect.  Wish it wasn't so, but there you have it.

Ok, with all of this said, people will be happy to know that the powdercoating problem has been resolved.  We will have completed yokes available shortly.  And with that, I'm outta here.

Happy gaming, people.

David Adams
RAM Controls

[TPB]

Txtworld made a good point, although it was wrapped up in a rather lousy package, IMO.

David ... my apologies if the package came across as having a few rough edges ... but it's encouraging to see you agree with the thrust of the message.

I'm starting to think that giving refunds to everyone regardless if they want one or not just may be the answer in all of this.  However, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't stop a few from finding something to complain about anyway.

In this circumstance, they'd have no basis to make the slightest complaint ... not a whimper.

If you're solely investing your own money, no-one has any right to pressure you with progress updates.

people will be happy to know that the powdercoating problem has been resolved.  We will have completed yokes available shortly.  ... Happy gaming, people.

Great news ... music to all our ears.   

[u_rebelscum]

I'm starting to think that giving refunds to everyone regardless if they want one or not just may be the answer in all of this.  However, I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't stop a few from finding something to complain about anyway.

In this circumstance, they'd have no basis to make the slightest complaint ... not a whimper.

If you're solely investing your own money, no-one has any right to pressure you with progress updates.

Nah, some people would find something to complain about no matter what.  I can think of two OTOMH, and am reluctant to post them here.  But I since mentioned of them, "what about the pre-order discount?", and "comparisons to vaporware".


But all I really have to say is, Dave keep up the awesome products, and "complete yoke soon"... yyyyes!!

[ratzz]

Hi David,

I’ve been following this thread with interest (as you know), and although I promised myself that I wouldn’t enter into it again, I felt I had to. You seem like a smart guy, and I can’t get my head round this whole situation.

Before I start, please remove yourself from the situation, and read below as one business man to another. I’ve been running my own company for many years, so I am well conversed in business ethics and practices – as I’m sure you are. It’s not a personal attack, its observations.

Firstly, I think you must admit that you made a big mistake taking 12+ pre-orders and not delivering the goods thus far. You are “sitting on” $2700+ of peoples hard earned cash, and seem surprised that you are getting flak. If you are a business man, I assume you have that cash stashed away in a high interest savings account making you a little bit of extra each month. Are people to be awarded this interest if they ask for a refund? It would only be earning interest in their savings account. If it’s been spent, then surely it should have been invested into the yoke.

Secondly, as this is a hobby to us here (and not to you – it ceased being a hobby for you when you took peoples money, so don’t soft-soap it), I assume that unless everyone who pre-ordered is loaded full of cash, it will have come out of monthly house keeping budgets, savings etc., that seems to be where ‘hobby’ money comes from – a little spare cash here and there. So, why haven’t you given this more priority?

Thirdly, why didn’t you develop a prototype before the pre-order. This would have made much more sense as you would have; firstly proved you could do it. Secondly, ironed out any manufacturing problems (and there seems to be many). Thirdly, given something for people to invest in that they can see - all people can see from your website is boxes of bolts and springs – hardly inspiring stuff. Forthly, saved you from all the abuse in other posts.

Also, what kind of response did you expect to get when you said that you’d been away for a month in Australia? People don’t care why you went, they maybe (and I’m included) stunned that you even mentioned it with all the delays you’ve (they’ve) suffered.

I think you are taking some of the posts too personally here, when really they are guided at protecting the BYOAC’s – let me explain. Recently a fellow arcade fanatic passed away, and although I’ve only been a member here for a few months, it seemed to send shockwaves round the whole community. I think some of the negative posts are to protect each other from making bad financial decisions – like SS.

My last question is, can you provide a firm, definite completion date to the “investors”, and stick to it. I’m sure that’s all they want – simple.

Regards

[saint]

*boggle*

[ahofle]

I guess bashing vendors on BYOAC is now the "in" thing to do after the SlikStik thread, especially when you have nothing to do with the vendor in the slightest.

[RetroGreg]

Wow. This forum is becoming more and more unfriendly to the vendors that are helping keep this hobby going strong. Noobs like me would not be able to enjoy it without these people. I think some people need to take a step back and realize what they are saying.

Dave probably shouldn't have taken the preorder money. Oh well. Get over it already. People make mistakes, and as he said himself, he is an enthusiast like the rest of us. This is his hobby as well.

I think the saying "Let the buyer beware" could go very far for people here. Always use a credit card for online purchases, and always know what your time limit is to cancel or contest any transaction you may be unsure about. If you go beyond that point, you are as much to blame in my book as the vendor because you are just plain stupid for putting your financial well being at risk in the hands of someone you truly do not know.

All the people who made the preorder knew the risk going into this.

I am not fopr people losing their money or getting ripped off, but common sense will help a lot in these type situations.

[quarterback]

My last question is, can you provide a firm, definite completion date to the “investors”, and stick to it. I’m sure that’s all they want – simple.

Dude, wtf?   Is everybody off their meds today?

If anybody who pre-paid wants their money, they can have it back.  He said that months ago.  In that time I've not heard that ANYbody here has gotten ripped off or not gotten the money back that they requested.    If you haven't put any money into this guy's hands, then quit making demands and telling him how to run his business, he can do whatever the hell he wants as can those who were part of the pre-order.   They're all adults who can decide if they do or do not want to wait.

[Level42]

1) I stand by my opinion on this matter. Even if the people who have pre-ordered will get the yoke within a month time from now, this was poorly handled. I have no business with David going on, but it sure DID back me out of ordering anything. This story and his e-bay history. I _do_ have an interest in the yoke parts he offers because I own a Star Wars. A was a possible customer.

2) David is right about the personal things in my posting. It was a long hard week last week for me and I was not in the best of moods. I should not have mixed my personal feelings into this. I should have maintained my standards on this forum. I regret loosing that over a matter that I am not directly involved in. I do apologise for that. The reason for this happening is probably that I have a strong feeling of justice and that I'm not scared to share my opinion. However, sharing my opinion should have been done without the personal things in that posting.

3) David did not respond to my remarks about his e-bay account. I would appreciate if he would clear things about that.

4) I sincerely hope that I am very wrong about my opinion in this matter and that I will have to take back my words. If the 12 who have pre-ordered receive their yoke "shortly" (let's say within 2 months time, I think that's reasonable enough)  I will change my opinion. No sooner.

[blueznl]

 

Call me stupid. (I'm used to that, got wife and kids, you see  )

But I don't understand this thread.

Those that did not pay the guy any money should take the backseat. What's their involvement? Minimal. What's their interest? Zero.

Those that did pay the guy and got the money back were treated well. I know a few cases where that did not happen...

Then the people who paid and did not ask for their money back... appearently they have sufficient trust in the future, okay.

Then, finally, the catagory that matters: people who asked their money back and did not get it. Now those are the ones and probably the only ones who can testify on the validity of the deal. Can those people please step forward and shine their light on the matter?

Then, perhaps, the rest of us (including me) better shut up. As we are, pretty much, not involved.

[Level42]

Those that did not pay the guy any money should take the backseat. What's their involvement? Minimal. What's their interest? Zero.

Read my last post again. I was a potential buyer of his products. That's my interest, I would have loved to get some parts for my SW yoke like any other SW owner.

[fatfingers]

OMG

[CheffoJeffo]

I guess bashing vendors on BYOAC is now the "in" thing to do after the SlikStik thread, especially when you have nothing to do with the vendor in the slightest.

* CheffoJeffo squirms uncomfortably in his chair, having been so vocal in the SS thread

I am definitely not comfortable if that behaviour is fallout from the SS thread, particularly since the situations are so very, very, very, very different.

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

[fixedpigs]

2) David is right about the personal things in my posting. It was a long hard week last week for me and I was not in the best of moods.

hey level42...tell us all about your long hard week last week...what made it so hard for you...?
what caused you to not be in the best of moods...?

oh wait...nevermind...i have no interest in badgering you to find out all the personal details of your life...

3) David did not respond to my remarks about his e-bay account. I would appreciate if he would clear things about that.

see directly above...

[Level42]

2) is personal

3) is business

[fixedpigs]

3) has nothing to do with star wars flight yokes...

[Level42]

It has to do about how David conducts in business.

He has been offering SW yoke repair kits on e-bay before. So this IS related.

[fixedpigs]

 

so go ahead and tell us what happened to you last week...since that's about how you conduct your thread posting...

 

[Level42]

You lost me.

[TPB]

I should just let saint speak for himself

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

It's pretty easy to agree with the forum owner and moderator.

You're never going to lose any friends by doing that.

Having said that, I also agree with Saint's comments - he's offered some worthwhile insights ...

... but, for as long as people have their money tied up in this project (albeit voluntarily tied up, as David has properly offered refunds upon request), then their opinions should be given the highest weighting.

To that end, let's give the microphone to Havok.

He's cool with patiently waiting, as he's looking forword to receiving his awesome, brand-spanking new, exact replica Star Wars yoke.  And good on him.   

There's just a few things he's requested :

* An update to the project blog (it was last updated on May 20, 2007).

* A completion to the project that occurs "soon".

* Regular communication of status and progress.

Let me just state for the record, as long as there is progress and communication, I'm cool with David. Now that he has posted again I feel much better about this transaction. However, with that said, I do want to see some real progress. I understand this is a side endeavor, and Real Life(tm) can interfere, so as long is there is a completion to the project (and at this point it should be soon), I'm fine. I am eagerly awaiting David's update on tonight's visit to the shop.

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

Hehe - yeah, I would have preferred to have it back in Feb 07...

However, I understand that this is a fairly monumental undertaking, and can deal with the delay - I've just got my eye on the prize...

[TPB]

David,

I presume this control has many applications beyond Star Wars ...

It could be used to play 270 driving games, such as Spy Hunter.

And it's effectively an analogue joystick, right ??  So this opens up a multitude of other games that could be played.

 

David,

I realise it's premature to ask this, but ...

Would it be possible, down the track, to offer a version of the SW yoke with 4 independent button inputs, connected to 4 independent switches ??

Apart from wiring modifications, no physical alterations to the construction of the yoke would be necessary, given there are already 4 buttons on the yoke (2 trigger buttons, and 2 thumb buttons).

By offering 4 independent button inputs, the yoke would be vastly more adaptable to other games (specifically, 270 driving games, and analogue joystick games), which vastly increases its potential.

Games such as Spy Hunter, while being a 270 driving game (a genre ideally suited to the yoke), require multiple button inputs.  The standard single button input, on the standard SW yoke, just won't cut it with "multi button" games.  But with 4 independent buttons on the yoke, suddenly all these games become playable with this awesome controller.   

And to play the simpler, single button games (such as Star Wars itself), well, it's possible to map 4 different buttons to the same action in the game, so 4 independent buttons could be mapped to the same "fire" action when playing Star Wars.

This would make what shall already be an awesome controller, even better.   

[Level42]

SW yoke buttons ARE all separate, even if SW doesn't use it.

ESB does make difference between buttons.

Fast forward to 4:30 to see the test screen. All four buttons are separately indicated there.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=OvaSxKpfMzM[/youtube]

[TPB]

SW yoke buttons ARE all separate, even if SW doesn't use it.

ESB does make difference between buttons.

Fast forward to 4:30 to see the test screen. All four buttons are separately indicated there.

Sweet !!   

For 270 driving games, apart from having the X axis for steering, you can use the Y axis for the gas pedal (acceleration), and have 4 independent button inputs to boot.

For other games, you've got a 4 button analogue joystick, with fine degrees of analogue control.

[CheffoJeffo]

I should just let saint speak for himself

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

It's pretty easy to agree with the forum owner and moderator.

You're never going to lose any friends by doing that.

Yeah, that's me ... the consumate suck-up ... always doing thing to make the mods happy

 

[TPB]

Yeah, that's me ... the consumate suck-up ... always doing thing to make the mods happy

 

LOL ... while lazing back on your sunchair, with your tequila in hand.   

Hey, Saint had some wise words for all, so why wouldn't you, or I, agree with them ??

[saint]

Yeah, that's me ... the consumate suck-up ... always doing thing to make the mods happy

 

Gosh if that's your goal you suck at it.

[FrizzleFried]

I've not chimed in...and well...I am sick...so screw it...I will.

Facts:

(A) Dude took pre-orders

(B) Dude offered money back to anyone who wanted it for their pre-orders

(C) Where's the issue?  If you want your dough back,  get it back.  If you don't,  then that money IS disposable income that isn't sorely missed and you are willing to WAIT until the product arrives.

Everyone else should back off.   It's not like the guy took the dough and ran.   He's had a long-standing policy of returning the dough to anyone who wants it back.   Now,  I think I read that there are some who want their dough back but haven't gotten it?  If that is true,  THEY are the only ones who have any kind of ---smurfette---...the rest need to chill out.

Level...I know  you don't want the whole new yoke,  right?  Well then,  buy a SW rebuild kit from videogameparts.com and be done with it if you are concerned with this dudes business practices.

I don't see people bitching at Mattel because the new kickass HE-MAN action figure that was supposed to be out by now (purely fictional example for the Masters of the Universe fans out there) isn't out.  I don't see people posting messages chewing the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of 3d Realms because Duke friggin' Nukem Forever hasn't been published (for the last 10 damn years).

What it comes down to is that NO ONE... not even POTENTIAL customers...aside from those who pre-paid and want their money back...have a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- thing to ---smurfette--- about.   You look like a bunch of --bags of cream-filled twinkies-- doing so.

...and I say that with love because you all know that I pretty much dig every last one of you.

CHILL OUT...

sheesh.

[quarterback]

I should just let saint speak for himself

I agree wholeheartedly with saint on this (or would if I could organize my thoughts as eloquently).

It's pretty easy to agree with the forum owner and moderator.

FYI, that post you quoted was not me just agreeing with the moderator.  That was an edited post which I edited so I wouldn't fan any flames here and also because I am not one to speak for saint.  Because I edited my post within the first minute of posting (or whatever the timeout period is) it did not indicate that it had been edited but, in fact, it had been.

The post, prior to editing, basically explained what (I believed) saint was saying in his previous posts.   Level42 clearly didn't get it, so I was explaining it.  I did so in a bit of a sarastic manner and decided after posting that (a) I didn't need to be nasty and (b) I didn't need to explain saint's posts.