RAM Controls - Star Wars Flight Yoke

[TPB]

FYI, that post you quoted was not me just agreeing with the moderator.  That was an edited post which I edited so I wouldn't fan any flames here and also because I am not one to speak for saint.  Because I edited my post within the first minute of posting (or whatever the timeout period is) it did not indicate that it had been edited but, in fact, it had been.

The post, prior to editing, basically explained what (I believed) saint was saying in his previous posts.   Level42 clearly didn't get it, so I was explaining it.  I did so in a bit of a sarastic manner and decided after posting that (a) I didn't need to be nasty and (b) I didn't need to explain saint's posts. 

OK quarterback.

I reckon this yoke, once completed, has great potential.

Apart from its playability advantages, it'll be a giant mother of a control, which shall take pride of place in the centre of any panel upon which it's mounted.

 

[rovingmind]

actually they aren't that big.  pretty much all of the steering wheels are larger.  Any board mounted gun control is also larger.  Physical layout takes up as much space as a trackball.  (the entire trackball undermount)   

But WHAT a way to take up that space Huh???  heh heh heh.

[Havok]

** Havok is playing Star Wars while patiently waiting **

Soon...

[rovingmind]

I play it with a Saitek cyborg joystick, the first usb model that was still adjustable.  It works but not as good as a full cockpit.   

[Time Pilot]

Just popping in as another dude on the pre-order list.

I personally see no reason to complain.  Things take longer sometimes.  Id rather have David take longer and get it right.  I see no problem with the pre-order either.  If you can get your money back, what's the problem?  Need your money- get it back.  Need a yoke faster for a special project- hit Ebay.  Why harass the guy?  How about encouraging him?

Seems lucky that we have sources for parts and new products for this great hobby- Andy at Ultimarc, Randy at GGG...  Having people connected with this hobby who also have the resources and time to design and manufacture this stuff is grand.     

I'm certainly looking forward to the completion of the yoke- it will open up something entirely new on my cab. 

Ahhh, perhaps a round of Centipede...   

[Level42]

I intended not to reply in this thread anymore for the coming two months (or if anyone of you received their yoke), but I can't help it.

How do I say this in a respectful and business like manor ?

Andy & Randy:

1) Release new products when they're ready to order
2) Have outstanding communications both in e-mail and this forum
3) Are examples of how a business in arcade parts should be run

'nuff said.

[MaximRecoil]

I don't see the problem either. Has anyone been denied a refund on their pre-order money?

[dirt]

I don't see the problem either. Has anyone been denied a refund on their pre-order money?

no they haven't. that is why i dont understand why these guys are making a big stink and demanding answers like david owes them something. he doesn't owe them anything. he can run his business as he wants, they can choose to buy from him or not to buy from him. they dont have the right to demand anything until they THEMSELVES send david some money.

now dont get this wrong, they can ASK all the questions they want. in fact that is what a smart buyer does. but demanding anything is just not their place.

[TAG]

1) Release new products when they're ready to order

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order.  That's why they're called "pre-orders," right?  He sure whet everyone's appetite, but he never claimed that they were ready to ship when he made the original announcement.

I'm very much looking forward to buying one of these when they're done, and I'm willing to pay the extra that goes along with waiting.  That is, assuming that David is still willing to sell them, given all the negativity that's been slung his way.

[rovingmind]

i would have been willing to put in a preorder at the initial release, i would have been willing to preorder 3 months ago.  I would still be willing to preorder now.  The only reason i havnt is quite simply i havnt the money to tie up that way.  I have to wait until finances AND availability show up at the same time.

[TPB]

I'm looking forward to the completion of this controller, which has real potential.

It will make a great addition to any panel.

But let's not pretend there was never a communication issue.

**  Mamemaster pulled the plug on his pre-order, and received a refund, after complaining on BYOAC (read his posts in this thread).

... full marks to David on giving Mamemaster his refund.   

**  Havok, while patiently waiting on his yoke (great to see), was feeling pretty disillusioned recently, by the lack of communication (read his posts in this thread).


Those who don't believe that someone running a business has an obligation to communicate with their customers, after accepting their cash ... that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.   

[TPB]

Regarding the myth being perpetuated by some, that there was "never any prior indication, that the pre-order folks would receive their product anytime soon" ...

1) Release new products when they're ready to order

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

Refer to :  http://www.ram-controls.com/

[February 9, 2007]  02/09/07 - Star Wars yoke pre-sale now open here.  Complete unit nearing completion.

... what's your definition of "Complete unit nearing completion", which was proclaimed almost a year ago ??


Also refer to the Star Wares project blog.  Havok is patiently awaiting an update to it (read his posts in this thread), but it still hasn't been updated since May 20, 2007 ... he's not asking for weekly updates, or anything like that ... but it's been over 8 months since the last update :

http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-sw.html

[Havok]

Hang on a sec there - David did state there were legal issues involved with him separating from a partner in the business, and he does not have control of the website any more, hence the lack of updates there. David has been giving updates here, and via personal emails, so I'm good now. I just got concerned when there was nothing for a straight month, but with the latest updates I'm ok. Now that David has stated he has overcome the powder coating problem, I would think we are just about done waiting. Why don't we all take a month off this thread and check back then? I would think that would be enough time to finish...

[TPB]

OK Havok.

My misunderstanding.

I wasn't aware there were legal issues with updating the website.


A few days ago, you had requested a blog update :

... I am eagerly awaiting David's update on tonight's visit to the shop. ...

This new information, (loss of control of the website), doesn't invalidate anything I've said, apart from the lack of update to the project blog.  For that, I apologise to David.   

However, he had control of the website on February 9, 2007, when he proclaimed "Complete unit nearing completion".


I just hope though ...

If he's lost control of the website, it's not a good sign.

I just hope he hasn't lost control of the rest of the business.   

[dirt]

and thats why yo uhave no business speaking for other people when you dot even have the whole story. DUDE, LET IT GO!!!!

[Havok]

A few days ago, you had requested a blog update :

... I am eagerly awaiting David's update on tonight's visit to the shop. ...

I didn't mention anything about a blog update, just an update from David, which he did post here stating that he has overcome the powdercoating issue...

and thats why you have no business speaking for other people when you dot even have the whole story. DUDE, LET IT GO!!!!

I do have to agree - let's back off for a bit and see what happens. I believe that David is operating in good faith, and that this will happen. It's like he said, this is a side operation, not his main business, when when the real work gets backed up, the side stuff is put on hold.

Let's give it a month and see where David is at then. Hopefully by then, I'll have a shiny new yoke in hand that I can sleep at night with when not using in my cabinet...

 

[TPB]

... Why don't we all take a month off this thread and check back then? I would think that would be enough time to finish...

Good idea Havok ... if we all agree to give this thread a breather, to give David the time he needs to finish the project, that's totally agreeable with me.

I had nothing more to say, until I read this ... this statement just "couldn't be left to pass by" without scrutiny :   

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

... if anyone wants to argue the affirmative case for that remark, go right ahead, in the context of David's proclamation on his website, "Complete unit nearing completion", on February 9, 2007.

David's now given some progress updates, which is terrific.  But it's pointless to pretend there was "never" an issue with communication.


Havok, you agreed there was an indication that completed product would be available within a forseeable timeframe after the pre-order date, assuming you haven't also changed your position on this remark :

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

Hehe - yeah, I would have preferred to have it back in Feb 07...

MameMaster felt likewise :

Havok...did you get your $$ back? He gave me a refund months ago when I complained about this here at BYOAC.

I too am bummed by this. I really wanted one and even wrote up an interview with him that was supposed to hit the March 2007 (last year) GameRoom magazine.

 

[Chris]

Has this just become a matter of getting the last word in now?

[Havok]

Havok, you agreed there was an indication that completed product would be available within a forseeable timeframe after the pre-order date, assuming you haven't also changed your position on this remark :

His customers (both current and abandoned), MameMaster and Havok, have other ideas on how they would have preferred things to run.

Hehe - yeah, I would have preferred to have it back in Feb 07...

You're reading too much into my statement - I just want everything now...

 

[TPB]

Havok,

Do you still have Randy in mind for "Plan B" ?   


New Product: TurboTwist High-Low™ - Arcade Up/Down Spinner - GroovyGameGear

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74483.msg782999#msg782999

No no no - his next project is a Star Wars yoke, since RAM Controls is MIA...

[FrizzleFried]

...is it me or is txtworld "piling on"?  I am guessing he's an Springer fan being he seems so "in to" drama...

[saint]

Havok,

Do you still have Randy in mind for "Plan B" ?   


New Product: TurboTwist High-Low™ - Arcade Up/Down Spinner - GroovyGameGear

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74483.msg782999#msg782999

No no no - his next project is a Star Wars yoke, since RAM Controls is MIA...

GIVE IT A FREAKING BREAK ALREADY!

Please. Pretty please, with sugar on top. Give it a freaking break, unless there's really something to add that isn't just another "no no my point of view is right everyone listen to me!" 

[TPB]

All right.

Let's accept this argument :

There was no reason for this thread.

This thread should never have been created, nor continued.

Havok should never have made those multitude of posts.

Havok had no valid reason to make those posts - there was never an issue with David's communication with him.

The only reason Havok made those posts, is that he's a neurotic and paranoid nut, who flip flops around, his opinion swaying whichever way the wind blows.   

Is that what we're meant to believe here ??

Either Havok had a valid reason to make those posts, or he didn't.


Which is it ??

[TPB]

Anyone's free to lodge a supporting argument for this comment. 

Pity no-one's prepared to do that.

I guess it's easier to just attack the messenger, and pull down the shutters on this thread.

So, let's all just accept this as "fact" :

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

[MaximRecoil]

All right.

Let's accept this argument :

There was no reason for this thread.

This thread should never have been created, nor continued.

Havok should never have made those multitude of posts.

Havok had no valid reason to make those posts - there was never an issue with David's communication with him.

The only reason Havok made those posts, is that he's a neurotic and paranoid nut, who flip flops around, his opinion swaying whichever way the wind blows.

Is that what we're meant to believe here ??

Either Havok had a valid reason to make those posts, or he didn't.


Which is it ??

Is there any particular reason why you think you are Havok's spokesman?

[TPB]

Is there any particular reason why you think you are Havok's spokesman?

Havok made the posts.

And Havok's free to answer that question.

Havok ??

[MaximRecoil]

Is there any particular reason why you think you are Havok's spokesman?

Havok made the posts.

And Havok's free to answer that question.

Havok ??

Good grief. Havok already answered, a few times. Here is his latest answer:

I do have to agree - let's back off for a bit and see what happens. I believe that David is operating in good faith, and that this will happen. It's like he said, this is a side operation, not his main business, when when the real work gets backed up, the side stuff is put on hold.

Let's give it a month and see where David is at then. Hopefully by then, I'll have a shiny new yoke in hand that I can sleep at night with when not using in my cabinet...

 

What do those words that he typed in standard English mean to you? Apparently something different than they mean to everyone else...

[TAG]

Anyone's free to lodge a supporting argument for this comment. 

Pity no-one's prepared to do that.

I guess it's easier to just attack the messenger, and pull down the shutters on this thread.

So, let's all just accept this as "fact" :

I guess I don't get it, either.  I've not seen any indication that David misled anyone into believing that the yokes were ready to be released upon order. ...

I didn't respond because I was under the impression that everyone was ready to let this whole "debate" go.   Apparently, most everyone else is.

At any rate, I maintain that *IN MY OPINION* David didn't mislead anyone with the whole pre-order business, as it was clear from the moment the project was announced that there was no guarantee as to when they'd be ready.  And he never said, "Hey' they're done and ready to ship," then failed to send them out.  Never.   That's what I meant by the "the yokes were ready to be released upon order" comment.  Seemed clear to me at the time, still seems clear now.

Of course, YMMV.  Obviously.

[rovingmind]

ok people. STOP!!!!   Please

This is the thread i'm watching for RELEASE INFORMATION on this project. 

QUIT before it gets sent to PNR or POST HELL

You've already pissed off Saint, and it sounds like his banning finger is getting itchy.

go to politics if you want to and create a bash this project thread THERE.

This isnt Havoks thread, its David's thread about a project most of us want or need.

[TPB]

MaximRecoil,

The point is, there were valid issues.

There was a valid reason for this thread.

Those issues have since been remedied - great !!

Three cheers to David, for responding in the appropriate manner.   

So, now, we can all give this thread a break.

But there a procession of fanboi's who keep coming along in this thread, insisting there was never a valid reason for this thread in the first instance, and there was never any issue to discuss.

You can't just rewrite the facts, whichever way they suit you.


Another matter ... Saint, I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.

Saint, are you prepared to personally financially reimburse the pre-order folks, if they end up "high & dry" without their money ?? ... this is not likely to happen, as David has (to his great credit) previously honoured commitments to provide refunds ... but, by his own admission, he's currently in a legal dispute with a business partner, and has lost control of his website as a result ... in these circumstances, anything can eventuate.

Now, of course I'll get flamed by all and sundry for making these comments (heaven forbid, to dare to voice an opinion in disagreement with the forum owner and moderator).

So ... go right ahead, guys.

Dirt ... throw some more dirt in my direction.  Knock yourself out.   

[TPB]

it was clear from the moment the project was announced that there was no guarantee as to when they'd be ready.

I don't need to say a word.

David speaks for himself, loud and clear :

[February 9, 2007]  02/09/07 - Star Wars yoke pre-sale now open here.  Complete unit nearing completion.

[polaris]

 

[TPB]

I like that !!   


A bit of comic relief is in good order.

[fatfingers]

unsubscribe

[saint]

Holy crap, do you not get it? You're entitle to your opinion, and on this forum you're entitled to post it. But you're posting the same bloody opinion time after time after time, with nothing new of any substance. The horse is dead man. Quit beating it. You've gone from "I have an opinion and here it is" to "I HAVE AN OPINION AND I'M GOING TO BLOODY WELL BEAT IT DOWN YOUR THROAT UNTIL YOU ALL AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT DAMNIT ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME YET?"

Bah.

--- saint

All right.

Let's accept this argument :

There was no reason for this thread.

This thread should never have been created, nor continued.

Havok should never have made those multitude of posts.

Havok had no valid reason to make those posts - there was never an issue with David's communication with him.

The only reason Havok made those posts, is that he's a neurotic and paranoid nut, who flip flops around, his opinion swaying whichever way the wind blows.   

Is that what we're meant to believe here ??

Either Havok had a valid reason to make those posts, or he didn't.


Which is it ??

[TPB]

Saint,

As mentioned above :

I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.   


Are you prepared to personally financially reimburse the pre-order folks, if they end up "high & dry" without their money ?? ... this is not likely to happen, as David has (to his great credit) previously honoured commitments to provide refunds ... but, by his own admission, he's currently in a legal dispute with a business partner, and has lost control of his website as a result ... in these circumstances, anything can eventuate.

[patrickl]

Saint,

As mentioned above :

I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.   

He just wants to to stop repeating the same thing over and over. We know it already.

You're so full of how other people should behave. Maybe you should look at your own conduct first.

[saint]

MaximRecoil,
Another matter ... Saint, I don't think it reflects well on your supposed position of independence, as the forum owner and moderator, to be taking partisan positions.

I'm fully entitled to an opinion and I'll post it when I feel the need, thank you. If that disappoints you I'll have to live with it.

Saint, are you prepared to personally financially reimburse the pre-order folks, if they end up "high & dry" without their money ?? ... this is not likely to happen, as David has (to his great credit) previously honoured commitments to provide refunds ... but, by his own admission, he's currently in a legal dispute with a business partner, and has lost control of his website as a result ... in these circumstances, anything can eventuate.

Uh... *boggle* ?  This question is so goofy I don't know where to start to answer it...

Now, of course I'll get flamed by all and sundry for making these comments (heaven forbid, to dare to voice an opinion in disagreement with the forum owner and moderator).

Now this is the only thing that pisses me off. People disagree with me all the time -- the only thing that is guaranteed to piss me off is to insinuate that disagreeing with me gets you punished somehow. I bend over bloody backwards to not let that happen, taking abuse I frankly don't deserve.

[markrvp]

I'm a member of a couple of other forums for another of my hobbies.  On those boards I've seen guys get banned for being far less of an ---uvula--- than txtworld.  I think he needs a timeout as he has shown both in this thread and the SlikStik thread that his sole M.O. is to rabble rouse.  Take that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- somewhere else.

Saint has shown remarkable restraint.  I think he is well within his rights to give txtworld a swift "E-kick" in the ass.

[markrvp]

A couple of years ago a very well respected member of this community planned to offer a specialized Joystick that nobody else offered.  He took pre-orders for the items for no other reason than to insure that he just wasn't jerking off by making these joysticks.  I pre-ordered two of them.

Long story short, he kept having problems finding someone to machine the parts he needed.  He asked me several times over the course of a year if I wanted a refund.  I repeatedly told him no, that I would prefer to have the joysticks if he could ever get the project done (I think I paid him $120 or so).  Finally after a year, he gave up on the project through no fault of his own and refunded my money.  No hard feelings.

The point is, nobody is going to get rich making stuff for this hobby, so we agree to be patient with others who are willing to create specialty parts for us.  It may turn out that these yokes never get made, but I pretty sure the 12 people who have prepaid would rather wait awhile in the hopes the get a yoke, than just be ---uvulas--- and berate the maker.