Legal question regarding the sale of MAME Cabinets.

[sealslayer]

I have a few questions here regarding the sale of arcade cabinets, a few people have seen my cab and are now interested in owning one so I may start building them.

If I was to build a cabinet that is free play etc and sell it as a MAME cab whats the situation with copyright infringement etc.
I know that Rom's are a definite no for a start and if its running XP etc then the licence has to be sold with it,but what about programs like MAME and Mala.

From what I've seen the I-Pac isn't supposed to be used in a revenue earning machine so I can't see any problem in using it in a free play machine but what about MAME or Mala, can you advertise a machine for sale that's using these programs?
Is there anything that I may have missed out on?

[trog_4269]

You can find the rules for distributing MAME in a cab here:

http://mamedev.org/licrules.html

You'll probably need the permission of the Mala creator to distribute his front end.

[Timoe]

Just dont tell anyone.   

[Havok]

Just dont tell anyone.   

Plus, cash only!

 

[Thenasty]

Just dont tell anyone.   

especially FOLEY.....Don't even say Mutli Arcade or MAME, you'll get sued by D.F.

[sidekick]

Man.... what a concept... your going to be rich I tells ya... right up there with Billy Gates

[subcriminal]

Selling MAME cabs is bad mmmkay.

[slider2732]

OK, it's an interesting one though.

The guy has built something that others want, spent probably months creating and refining. Some poeple just want to hand over cash and have the same.

Is he to sit there on his own and wonder, while others say 'no' or at best  ignor ?
Is he to find out totally where his end limits are regarding legality, but never divulge that info ?
Is he one of those who doesn't care....i doubt it.

What's the score ? Where are the legal precedences and company representatives to tell this guy what he can't and can do ?


A sure footing is what all of us need who wish to extend/expand and enrich something that could well have died out a decade ago.

[sealslayer]

I'm actually more curious about the commercial side of things now, selling to friends is not a problem lots use MAME and know that using Rom's that they do not own the rights to  is technically illegal.

I have seen so many machines for sale on ebay that don't actually state they are using mame, they use the words such as "programmed to play X amount of games" and state that no illegal Rom's are sold with the machine, but you can bet that as soon as the buyer turns up at the house to collect the machine it is full of Rom's and MAME etc.
Afterall who wants to buy a machine only to find its just a empty HDD with maybe windows on it, then have to go home download mame buy or download Rom's etc, your going to be pretty peed off at having bought nothing more than a wooden PC with joysticks and buttons attached to it.

Most of the Cabinets look like crap that I've seen for sale on ebay, nothing more than a old machine with a ugly PC chucked inside and wired up to a interface.
It would be nice to be able to sell a good looking machine legally using MAME with their permission and a nice set of legal Rom's to boot.
I can't see anything wrong with this as long as its all above board and legal, I've been looking into having a design made and CNC cut, I can make a machine for far less than some of the brand new cabinets on ebay and still make a tidy profit to make it worth my while.
I could easily go down the "programmed to play" route and lie to potential buyers but whats the point? when I can try and do it legally,I have 2,300 positive feedback on ebay so I'm not out to rip people off, just trying to make a little cash doing something that I enjoy.

[grantspain]

most of the cabs i have seen for sale in the u.k tend to be the multi jamma game kits as opposed to actual mame,of course its illegal to use anyones components for profit whether it be sale of a cab or operation in site without either their permission or a licence.
the gaming board(customs and exise) in the u.k have alot of powers to deal with illegal sale of equipment BUT they are more concerned with fruit machines and roulette type machines to give video's much notice
the sale of a cabinet without coin handling facilties would not interest the gaming board at all,if you have purchased a particular game system then almost all times this would automatically give you permission to do what you like,pretty much

[CheffoJeffo]

While I appreciate the enthusiasm and "where are the legal precedences" (precedents?), there is nothing new here. This has been discussed repeatedly.

• There already is a procedure for licensing MAME for distribution, so that is already settled.
• With the demise of StarROMS, I can't think of an existing channel for inexpensively obtaining ROMs to run on MAME legally (e.g. specfic licensing for those ROMs), other than RobbyRoto (doesn't mean that there isn't one, just that I am unaware of it). There are a number of PC-based ports of arcade games, though.
• People have been building and selling cabs and cab kits for quite a while. Looking at one-offs being sold on eBay is not representative of the market. Check out DreamArcades, Awesome Arcades, Quasicade, Dream Authentics, etc.
• A number of individuals here build and sell cabinets, with at least a couple making it a full-time job.

The issues are pretty clear, and, sadly, wishing that the obstacles didn't exist does not remove the obstacles.

If you can make it fly, then great. I'm not necessariy disagreeing with anything the OP says, but if you ask folks who have sold MAME-based cabs, I think that you will find it isn't as easy as building cabs for yourself (e.g. supporting your clients can be rather painful).

Good luck.

Cheers

[sealslayer]

I really can't understand why companies just don't sell the roms in the first place. People are downloading roms from dozens of various sites across the world for free so they get zero income from those when they could be getting customers who would quite willingly pay for them, especially if they wanted to re-disttribute them.
What happened to starRoms? I only recently heard about them, checked the link to their site and it was dead.

[Xam]

I really can't understand why companies just don't sell the roms in the first place. People are downloading roms from dozens of various sites across the world for free so they get zero income from those when they could be getting customers who would quite willingly pay for them, especially if they wanted to re-disttribute them.
What happened to starRoms? I only recently heard about them, checked the link to their site and it was dead.

The problem with most of the games (especially the older ones) is...who owns them? Someone still owns the copyright, but it (copyright and ownership of it) has been traded and sold so may times that it is hard to find the rightful owner. While I agree it would be nice (and profitable) for companies to provide a legal avenue for the roms...it just is not going to happen any time soon. I know Nintendo is extremely protective of their copyrights...went so far as to send a cease and desist to my son for because of some of his Mario drawings.

Xam

[ChadTower]

Build the machine, configure it, get it running.  Sell it without the hard drive. 

Problem solved.

[javeryh]

Build the machine, configure it, get it running.  Sell it without the hard drive. 

Problem solved.

I agree.  Set everything up and leave the ROM folder empty.  The rest is self-explanatory for the buyer, I think.

[ChadTower]

Well, you'd still have legal issues with most of the other software on the hard drive.

[javeryh]

Good point.  This is a tough question - if you sell it without the hard drive there's no way an average buyer will be able to figure everything out.  Also, who wants to pay $1,000 or whatever and not have something that works?

[kelemvor]

Could just remove the hard drive and sell that.  Then give them the hard drive for free (without the roms).  Then they just have to go get some ROMs.

Just have to make sure Windows is legit and everything too.

[PCtech]

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for selling a mame cab (with roms)?

[Kremmit]

If you want to sell a cab that plays a lot of games legally, either sell a cab with a console (Dreamcast, PS2, etc.) inside, or a PC running the Gametap service.

[quarterback]

I've been looking into having a design made and CNC cut, I can make a machine for far less than some of the brand new cabinets on ebay and still make a tidy profit to make it worth my while.

If this is true, then you should do just that and sell cab kits.    Cocktail or Bartop would be my suggestion.  Most people don't want to pay $100-$150 for one.  So sell a kit for $65 a pop and I bet you'd sell a bunch of them.     Cocktail cab kits go for ~$600 with controls and wired CP etc.  They go for $200-$300 without.  If you'd sell one for $150, I bet you'd do some business.

I'm not just being a nay-sayer but, like all 'good ideas', this isn't a new idea.   There are already a number of businesses selling cab kits.  There are already businesses selling ready-to-go cabs with games and everything.  There are individuals on here who have tried to make a go of selling kits.  In the end, the prices are almost always higher than what most people would pay and, therefore, here on BYOAC most people build their own. 

Until somebody comes up with the $150-cocktail kit or the $50 bartop or the $300 complete machine with CP and computer, there will be more people building their own than there are people buying.
My 2-cents

[ChadTower]

Yep... can't tell you how many times a person has asked me to build them a MAME cab... we settled on requirements and they chose parts from the options I gave them that would do what they wanted... I started to order stuff, got a cab to strip, and then when I did the math and told them what it would cost (usually with very little if any profit to me), they would balk and act as if I were trying to rip them off.

"What, $600?!  You said you didn't need a huge profit."

[AlanS17]

"What, $600?!  You said you didn't need a huge profit."

That's pretty funny. The first time I ever got involved with the purchase of a machine was at a local mini golf place (long before I ever got involved with MAME or BYOAC). The dude was selling my beloved Killer Instinct machine for $600. I didn't know what it was even worth but I ran home and grabbed the money without thinking twice. I thought it was a major deal. (And it turned out that the thing was worth at least $800, but that's besides the point.) I don't think $600 for an arcade machine is ridiculous. Some people have wierd expectations.

[leapinlew]

Yep... can't tell you how many times a person has asked me to build them a MAME cab... we settled on requirements and they chose parts from the options I gave them that would do what they wanted... I started to order stuff, got a cab to strip, and then when I did the math and told them what it would cost (usually with very little if any profit to me), they would balk and act as if I were trying to rip them off.

"What, $600?!  You said you didn't need a huge profit."

 

So true.... $600 would be a deal too! I've had people tell me they would love to have a cab and when I tell them the price they decide that "love" may have been too strong of a word.

I've had way more interest in people wanting my jukebox. Music is more universal. If you would market a jukebox machine.... well.... thars gold in tharm thar hillz!

[CheffoJeffo]

I would agree 100% with leapinglew on this.

A local collector does restorations, MAME cabs and jukebox cabinets and the stuff he sells without problem are the jukes.

Cheers

[More Cowbell]

The costs of an arcade cabinet tend to escalate which allows us to get sucked in before the costs get too high. When I thought of building my own cabinet for $500 or so, it was intriguing. But that $500 soon turned into $750 which soon hit $1,000 and then up to $1,150 (counting every screw and new drill bit or Dremel attachment). If I were to sell my cab I would want at least what I put into it which is more than most are willing to spend (probably including myself). I guess what I'm getting at is the BYOACers are spending a little at a time which makes the cost more bearable while most others want a one-shot price and balk at the final tally.

[quarterback]

e BYOACers are spending a little at a time which makes the cost more bearable while most others want a one-shot price and balk at the final tally.

I think you're right.  Although I'll add that doing it a little at a time allows you to wait for "deals".   

I certainly got my money's worth out of the Konami cab I bought at auction for $30.  It had four 8-way wico balltops, coin doors etc.  Heck, I even sold one (or 2?) of the big lit buttons that were part of the CP (and that I would probably not ever use).

That cab didn't cost me much at all.   Piecing it together doesn't necessarily give you a slick, shiny brand new looking cab, but I can play all the games on a real cab with real arcade controls for much less than buying everything brand new.

[DreamArcades]

...and still make a tidy profit to make it worth my while.

LOL. Please don't take offense, but it is not that simple. There's more competition jumping in every month.

Still, if you are really intrested, I suggest starting out doing custom cabinets. It's easier to make a profit setting ten custom machines for top $$ than selling 100 CNC'd machines at current market prices.

-Mike

[sealslayer]

There really isnt any competition over here in the UK, the only competition is from converted cabinets that end up looking like this or that ugly looking voyager machine.



Time will tell, I have nothing to lose so I'm going for it anyway 

[ChadTower]

Well that's the thing... you work with a person, letting them choose all of the options, are up front about the costs of the parts all along, and then when all of those $30 parts and $75 bits of art are tallied up they say:

"What, $600?!  You said you didn't need a huge profit!"

Sure, you can build a MAME cab out of $150 in cost and parts lying around.  But those parts lying around are yours and not stuff to just be given away.  Those people wouldn't just give you $350 in DVDs because you wanted to watch some movies.

It really comes down to, you can pay for the parts, you can use spare parts lying around, you can spend tons of time doing things the long inexpensive way... but either way it's going to be roughly the same base cost.  You're either paying in inventory, time, or money.  It's never "I just took this $50 bill, a cab I found in the trash, and in an hour had a functional decent looking MAME cab."

[More Cowbell]

I'm starting to rethink this. I put a cabinet that I slapped together in a few weeks with a free computer and a $50 gutted cab (total cost about $250) on Craigslist day before yesterday for $650 and I've had people beating down my door. A guy came by to look at it, said he likes it but that he wants me to put another computer (3.4Ghz) in it and will pay me extra to set it all up. Mind you, this cab has a 21" computer monitor in it, two joysticks, and 6 buttons each. No spinner, no trackball, no sideart, generic cpo. I have people asking me if I have any more or if I'll be building any more. I'm considering building (or restoring) 2 at a time, one for me, one to sell, which will pay for mine. The perfect plan to build my master planned basement arcade. After Christmas I'm guessing the market will drop significantly though. But it's not as far out of the question as I would have previously thought depending on how much your time is worth to you.

[ChadTower]

Make sure you get the money up front, then.  I've had so many people tell me they want me to build one... then when it's time to pay for parts they put me off, and I get stuck with a shelf full of stuff they decided later they didn't want to pay for.

[More Cowbell]

That's why I figure I'll just build 2 at once and sell it when it's done rather than have someone "order" one. I guess I risk the possibility of no one wanting it once it's finished, but if I can get away with cleaning up a gutted cab and throwing joysticks and buttons in it I won't be on the hook for much. Plus it's fun to have projects going on. I'm not planning on making it a business, I'm just surprised that the response was so positive.