Video: LED-Wiz Dances to music....

[headkaze]

wtf do you add a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- load of Carriage Returns after your post Youki? That is just weird.

Anway, well I can't prove that GameEx has a larger userbase, but It's just a feeling I have. Since it covers MCE users as well as the arcade scene and it's been reviewed on some high profile sites. I would safely say it's true but I have no way of proving it to you, but at the end of the day who cares?

As for Randy chosing your FE, I have read every LEDWiz related thread on this board and he does mention that he will be using Atomic. I could be wrong about that, but again, it's not the point why is he supporting Atomic and not the rest of us?

So, the question is why he has been so helpfull with me and lot of others  and not with you or howard.  I don't know....   

This is the mystery. Perhaps he likes people who think competition is healthy for the community? Personally I think you ideals are detremental to the scene. I think your more interested in your own ego and getting more users using Atomic than the scene as a whole. Not everyone here thinks like that. And I don't accociate myself with howard, but feel free to read the numerous posts where Randy and Howard go neck to neck. It's quite a amusing! And half the time Howard is ---smurfing--- right, and that is saying something!

[youki]

wtf do you add a ---Cleveland steamer--- load of Carriage Returns after your post Youki? That is just weird.

Sorry, i removed the carriage returns.

Since it covers MCE users as well as the arcade scene

My feeling, is that is has more user on the MCE side than in the Arcade scene. But it is just a feeling too.

I think your more interested in your own ego and getting more users using Atomic than the scene as a whole

Yes, it is my satisfaction to have more user , it motives me. You can call that ego.   But i do more on  the scene by keeping my FE totally free... then others...  that's my point of view. I know you disagree.

Headkaze, i could be wrong, but i saw a post somewhere few time ago  . Don't remember where, may be here or on GameEX forum.  Where it was written you have been paid by tom (150$ if i remember well) to develop the GameEX layout editor? Is it true?   I'm not sure to ask money for development is healthy for the community.

[headkaze]

Youki you such fool. Your wrong about that ---Cleveland steamer--- with the layout editor so stop trying to troll this thread.

Lets get back on topic, which is the LEDWiz dancing to music if you rememer.

[RandyT]

As for Randy chosing your FE, I have read every LEDWiz related thread on this board and he does mention that he will be using Atomic. I could be wrong about that, but again, it's not the point why is he supporting Atomic and not the rest of us?

I like AtomicFE and I like the way Youki supports his users.  I have seen him appear to drop what he was doing and write special programs for them at no charge because of something special they wanted to do with their system.  I have seen no other developer (other than MikeQ) who exhibits this level of selfless personal dedication to their users.  I have developed relationships with these two folks and personally like them.  And because of that, I do what I can for them (and if you saw my to do list, you might appreciate the effort that requires on my part.)

I'm trying to keep this post positive, so I will not get into all of the negatives that have affected my decisions about how to spend my already too limited time, and whom I choose to spend it on. 

On a related note, the OCX does not "suck big balls" and I spent considerable time making and documenting it.  The software in the video of the lights reacting to the music is, in fact, using it to communicate with the hardware.  The reason that no other DLL is necessary is, as you already know, because MikeQ has already provided one for all to use, free of charge.

As for my FE "selection", I don't even have a dedicated "play" machine (it's a test rig.) So when I am testing something, I need to get to it fast, and that means a mouse driven Windows interface works the best.  But if and when I do set up a small unit dedicated to "fun", it will most likely run AtomicFE, so it would be nice if it worked with my hardware

This is the mystery. Perhaps he likes people who think competition is healthy for the community? Personally I think you ideals are detremental to the scene. I think your more interested in your own ego and getting more users using Atomic than the scene as a whole. Not everyone here thinks like that. And I don't accociate myself with howard, but feel free to read the numerous posts where Randy and Howard go neck to neck. It's quite a amusing! And half the time Howard is ---smurfing--- right, and that is saying something!

I won't address the comment about Howard and I, other than to say that we are in disagreement.  Again, trying to stay positive.

There is healthy competition where everyone has the potential to gain and there is competition that is overtly detrimental.  Writing any piece of software is long and arduous work, and when you receive no compensation, the only reward is the gratitude of your user base.  How is it wrong to want to expand the user base for a piece of software you work so very hard on and receive no compensation for?  Why is is wrong or "detrimental to the scene" to feel that software which withholds desirable features or support priority from users unless they pay for it is a commercial endeavor?  Why is it wrong to have the prerogative not to directly support a competing venture one views as a commercial endeavor?  And please understand, I have nothing at all against commercial endeavors.    That is all I take with me from the comments I have seen Youki make that could be considered even remotely "competitive".

Let me just say one more time that the efforts of all those involved in adding support for GGG hardware are very much appreciated.  But I'd also like to state that I am not so naive as to believe that it is being done to benefit me.  I provide as much assistance as I can, given my time constraints, and as much as I am allowed given business constraints.  The availability of free programming tools and documentation is support of that fact.  When I am pushed for more than I am freely willing or able to give, individuals just have to realize that many things are rightfully taken into consideration when deciding whether I have the time or desire to facilitate them.

RandyT

[headkaze]

Randy I appreciate your reply, but one simple thing is, since you are here right now how come you havn't replied to my two e-mails to you (15/11/2006 and 27/11/2006) in regard to writing software for your hardware. I am busting my balls trying to support hardware I don't even own and don't even care to own. I am writing this plugin to support people who want to use LEDWiz with GameEx and I hope I can help out my good friend loadman and his endevour to support Mala users.

How about a bit of support man? Why are you so closely guarding your beat detecting code, I mean comon man are you entering the karaoke business or what? Why is it so special to you? I have given loadman my "sacred" code for the LEDWiz attract mode in my LEDWiz plugin. So damn what? Who cares, I don't think my code is special, I want to help out my fellow friends in this scene. Stop being weird about things and send me your audio LEDWiz code so we can write some damn plugins to do the same and sell you some LEDWiz units at the same time. Don't you see what's going on here? We are developers writing code for nothing in our free time to support your hardware. Show some respect man. I do this for fun, not for money, I havn't made a cent out of it, so lets get real man.

If you really are this protective over your source for this, fair enough I don't want to steal your hard work. But remember this we are coding to support your hardware for free. And you being secretive about your algs for audio is only making our plugins supporting your hardware less than they could be. I don't know what to say other than that, keep shooting yourself in the foot, but it's not cool dude.

Hey I love your hardware, and I think your a top bloke, but lets be real.. give up some support good fella!

[RandyT]

Randy I appreciate your reply, but one simple thing is, since you are here right now how come you havn't replied to my two e-mails to you (15/11/2006 and 27/11/2006) in regard to writing software for your hardware. I am busting my balls trying to support hardware I don't even own and don't even care to own. I am writing this plugin to support people who want to use LEDWiz with GameEx and I hope I can help out my good friend loadman and his endevour to support Mala users.

A: customer support comes first (even before developers), and B: with all that's going on to support a new product release, I am behind on "A" and C: they were requests related not to controlling the hardware, rather related to a specialized function of a software application that I am personally working on.  Frankly, I'm perplexed as to where you are finding this feeling of entitlement to the code behind one of my projects, which is totally unrelated to a developer's ability to communicate with and to use the LED-Wiz hardware. 

Why are you so closely guarding your beat detecting code, I mean comon man are you entering the karaoke business or what? Why is it so special to you?

Aside from the difficulty of conveyance without documented source, I haven't yet decided whether the end result will be a commercial piece of software in some form, or limited to use with the LED-Wiz hardware, as is my prerogative to do.  As I said, I have already invested considerable time and resources to developing the two different pieces of software that do this kind of thing.  I fully intend on making a version available for free to LED-Wiz users, but it might not have all of the features that, say, a commercial-jukebox manufacturer might find desirable and be willing to purchase.

I do this for fun, not for money, I havn't made a cent out of it, so lets get real man.

Developing beat detection code was fun, so please feel free to have some.  Why does your development of this specialized piece of software hinge around me?  You have stated on numerous occasions that you have the basic code and ability to do it, so why the focus on my code?  I guess I don't understand your dilemma or what appears to be turning into harassment over the subject.

Hey I love your hardware, and I think your a top bloke, but lets be real.. give up some support good fella!

I appreciate the sentiment, but this is completely unrelated to support of the hardware.  This is a specialized application I am working on, not an advertised feature of the LED-Wiz. 

For fun and a performance demonstration, I recently wrote a full 4x quadrature decoding / counter application for the KeyWiz, using keyboard inputs as the source.  Are you saying that all developers who write support for keyboard input, and can potentially use a KeyWiz, are somehow entitled to this code because *I* wrote it?  Does that not border on a preposterous notion?  How is this different?

RandyT

[loadman]

Randy:
O well......   I figured I didn't hurt to ask ? Thanks anyway

Headkaze:
I think you have done pretty well considering you don't even have a Led-Wiz. I might send one of my LedWiz's soon to expedite matters. 

You can then decide if you want to buy it from me or not.

Can you believe that I have bought three of the things (don't tell my wife)? .  I gave one to Swindus and two for myself so I could do multiple Wiz testing.

So I will finish my multiple Wiz testing right after I release the beta version of the Serial Display Mala plug-in which should be by the end of the week.

So can you wait a couple of weeks?  In the meantime I can test for you from the Eastern side of Australia.
     

[headkaze]

a commercial-jukebox manufacturer might find desirable and be willing to purchase.

Fair enough Randy. I didn't realise that you were thinking of selling your software. I guess if you see something that has potention to make money then you keep it to yourself. Thanks okay.

Developing beat detection code was fun, so please feel free to have some.  Why does your development of this specialized piece of software hinge around me?  You have stated on numerous occasions that you have the basic code and ability to do it, so why the focus on my code?

The difference is my code is only using averaging and assigning a colour of the spectrum to a level of volume basically. It is very basic and the effect is in most parts of music (which is offen compressed) has levels that do not vary much so the lights will just flicker a bit. The reason I want your code is that I like your video, I don't currently have the same effect with my software and I would like to have it working the same.

What I didn't realise is that you would be so protective over your algorithms for doing this. Especially since I want to reproduce a function that will help support your hardware. To me it's a little strange, but I didn't know you were using complex beat detection algs. Anyway, I will figure it out eventually, it's just a shame your being the way you are about it. I guess once you go commercial, you see dollar signs in everything you do. But it's fair enough we all need to eat.

Oh and btw loadman, I'm not interested in owning a LEDWiz so don't worry about it. But from now on I would say it's best you talk to Randy since I don't own a LEDWiz and therefore am not a customer and not worth his time.

[headkaze]

There is much math involved.  It's not so simple a thing that it can be conveyed adequately without giving out documented source.  And I don't give out source to my software.

I have, in essence, developed a homebrew beat-detection method based on the compression waveforms.  Everyone will do this kind of thing a little differently, so I recommend experimentation.  You might even come up with something better than what I had.  But you can start by carving up the compression waveform data into pieces using weighted averages and act upon the results in a fashion you think will give you the effect you desire.  To be done correctly, there should also be a mechanism or two in place to try to cope with changing output levels between different songs or audio sources.  What you see in the video represents about 40 hours worth of experimentation and some pretty complex code.

Thanks for the brief explaination. If you can go into a little more depth that would be nice. But that is a good starting point. Can you please tell me what "compression waveforms" are? I understand the concept of compressing sound, but I'm not sure that's what you mean by that.

And when you say "carve up the data into pieces using weighted averages" do you use any type of frequency analysis or is it purely volume based?

Finally how to you assign colour to these peices of cut up sound? How do you decide after anaylsys which piece of the waveform to show the colour for?

Is there a website link that describes the method your using or the maths involved?

[Havok]

Oh and btw loadman, I'm not interested in owning a LEDWiz so don't worry about it. But from now on I would say it's best you talk to Randy since I don't own a LEDWiz and therefore am not a customer and not worth his time.

Yeah, that'll get Randy to help you out...

[headkaze]

Oh and btw loadman, I'm not interested in owning a LEDWiz so don't worry about it. But from now on I would say it's best you talk to Randy since I don't own a LEDWiz and therefore am not a customer and not worth his time.

Yeah, that'll get Randy to help you out...

heh, well Randy has been ignoring my e-mails, so I assume that you have to be a customer to get support from him. Being a developer doesn't seem to get his attention. I don't expect him to help me out anyway, it was a last ditch effort.

It doesn't matter now anyway, I already have the code for beat detection working. I'm just trying to decide how to accociate the colour to the energy bands.

[screaming]

Beat detection software has been around for a long time, and available in a nice neat package at least as far back as WinAmp 1.0.

I'm sure you guys have done your google searches; My 1 google search for "beat detection code" brought up 789,000 hits. But have you checked out WinAmp? It's dead simple to do as a visualization plugin, and I'm sure you will get a lot of helpful advice on their dev support boards.  Or how about the source of the old open source version?  One that note, have you looked at many of the other free, open source music players that do the same thing?

But wait, and maybe Howard will know more about this, but doesn't DirectX already include support for beat detection?

Out of curiosity, with all these other (free) resources at your disposal, why is Randy's code so important?  No doubt he has used these same exact resources for his version....

[headkaze]

Beat detection software has been around for a long time, and available in a nice neat package at least as far back as WinAmp 1.0.

Yeah it has been around for a long time. So that's why I was perplexed as to why Randy wouldn't help us get the same effect in our plugins. Unless he's invented some new way of doing it, he hasn't accomplished anything that hasn't already been done. Incidently, the only matches I could find on Google for "beat-detection method based on the compression waveforms" are all patents!

I'm sure you guys have done your google searches; My 1 google search for "beat detection code" brought up 789,000 hits. But have you checked out WinAmp? It's dead simple to do as a visualization plugin, and I'm sure you will get a lot of helpful advice on their dev support boards.  Or how about the source of the old open source version?  One that note, have you looked at many of the other free, open source music players that do the same thing?

Yes, I've done my own research on Google. Beat Detection has some complex maths involved. You can take a look at some of them here. I've chosen the "Frequency selected sound energy" method about halfway down the page and using an open source FFT library for .NET called Exocortex.DSP but the most popular one is fftw.

But wait, and maybe Howard will know more about this, but doesn't DirectX already include support for beat detection?

That would be news to me!

Out of curiosity, with all these other (free) resources at your disposal, why is Randy's code so important?  No doubt he has used these same exact resources for his version....

It's not that it was important, it was just strange to me that he didn't want to help out with example code. Like you say there is plenty of info on the Net. It just would have made it easier for us to implement the technology into our plugins. But alas, I have done it myself anyway...

Attached is a screenshot of my test application.

[screaming]

good, I'm glad you were able to work through your problem! Good work! 

[Green Giant]

Bump...

So it has been a while now Randy, you mentioned you wanted to release a completed version of beat detection, anything new?

Also, has anyone else done any beat detection for the ledwiz in the last 8 months?

[RandyT]

So it has been a while now Randy, you mentioned you wanted to release a completed version of beat detection, anything new?

I want to do a lot of things  

But I'll tell you what.  by the end of the day tomorrow, I will have a little sound toy ready to release as Alpha, WIP, No-Frills, No-support - ware

You will need an LED-Wiz Device 1 and don't even try to use it on an LED-Wiz with relays or other things you don't want actuated.

Deal  ?

RandyT

[RandyT]

Ok, I couldn't release it with support for only one device....It'll dump the same output to up to 4 LED-Wiz devices.

The thread is here.


RandyT