Act-Lab's TV gun to support 2 players?

[rampy]

Heh, after you try  out the "quote" feature, also try out the "modify" feature of the message board.... unless you are trying to crank up your post count =P

They mighta just updated the site so they can switch to their new pricing scheme (the introductory price for the regular PC usb light guns is OVER!)

=P

RAmpy

EDIT1: well look at this http://www.act-labs.com/scripts/proddetails.asp?pid=132
Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

emphasis mine... wtf?! even act-labs posts conflicting info.... *Shrug*

[anthony691]

Heh, after you try  out the "quote" feature, also try out the "modify" feature of the message board.... unless you are trying to crank up your post count =P

They mighta just updated the site so they can switch to their new pricing scheme (the introductory price for the regular PC usb light guns is OVER!)

=P

RAmpy

EDIT1: well look at this http://www.act-labs.com/scripts/proddetails.asp?pid=132
Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

emphasis mine... wtf?! even act-labs posts conflicting info.... *Shrug*

I know rampy, this makes things terribly confusing, but I mentioned that the in depth description says that. My guess is because It IS the same old content for that page as always, I think they have yet to change alot of things. Hey I think I saw the name rampy somwhere... was it the MAMEWorld forums or Act-Labs? And rampy, if you didn't relize I was refering to the page before that one in a brief description (the page had the PC USB Light gun, the TV Usb Light gun, and Maddog 1+2) Oh, sorry for not qouteing I am not used to this forum, I frequent at MAME.net recently and other places where such qouting is usually unnessisary because of the whole "reply to a reply" thing, does that have a formal name?

[unclet]

I called Act-Labs today and was inform the new TV USB guns will come with the newer hardware to allow two gun to be used at the same time.  However, they informed me they need to get the software in Mame updated to support this.   They told me it is strictly a software thing in order to get dual player light gun games working.

Basically, I can get my one pre-ordered TV lightgun and play games until Mame is updated with dual Act-Labs light gun support, and then simply buy another Act-Lab TV gun tohave more fun.

[Sasquatch!]

hehe, Howard, I think that was the nices slam I've ever seen from you... Not even a hint of namecalling, just a logical response..

I think you need to change back to the shining icon... you seem to nice with the new one  

Yeah really.  Who is that tooty-fruity in his avatar anyway?

[Siris]

Well, I guess the 2 player TV thing is official and it's also possible to use a VGA gun with a TV gun for 2 players, BUT I have yet to see anything saying anything about 2 player with 2 VGA guns!
That is what I and I'm sure many other are concerned about.

[Dr. J]

I'm still not sure what they're doing  It does say 2-player support, but it also says something interesting under the notes section at the bottom of the page.  Here's a cut and paste and I underlined the part that interests me.

"Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

[anthony691]

I'm still not sure what they're doing  It does say 2-player support, but it also says something interesting under the notes section at the bottom of the page.  Here's a cut and paste and I underlined the part that interests me.

"Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

I think that is soley because it is old content   They didn't update any REAL heavy content. There were more informitive admin posts in thier forum.

[anthony691]

Well, I guess the 2 player TV thing is official and it's also possible to use a VGA gun with a TV gun for 2 players, BUT I have yet to see anything saying anything about 2 player with 2 VGA guns!
That is what I and I'm sure many other are concerned about.

It is very unofficial and AL dosn't support it, but it works! I will admit am not the expert (I have done it though) I think I have found the real expert to be U_rebelscum, so if you have questions I think he could probably best answer them.

[brandon]

Well, I guess the 2 player TV thing is official and it's also possible to use a VGA gun with a TV gun for 2 players, BUT I have yet to see anything saying anything about 2 player with 2 VGA guns!
That is what I and I'm sure many other are concerned about.

What?  you can use a VGA and a TV gun at the same time?  how does that work?  is that documented on a website anywhere?  I really want to see it...
If only ActLabs made a dual TV/VGA, 2 player  compatible gun then I would be sold.. or some sort of adapters like X-arcade so that it would never be obsolete...  Modular is they way to go I say.. Maybe someday......

[u_rebelscum]

Reading the forum, it seems the TV model will be able to switch one of the triggers to button 3 of the mouse.  If that's all the changes actlabs did, you won't be able to pull both triggers at the same; both guns will shoot at the same spot.  If actlabs added a delay also, it might work.  
For the "Only one light gun can be used at a time" note listed on http://www.act-labs.com/scripts/proddetails.asp?pid=132 it sounds like you can only pull one trigger at a time, unless this is an un-updated leftover from earlier.

Reading the forum, you can use the TV and the PC guns at the same time, the TV one on a TV, the PC on a PC monitor, and you need a video card that outputs both at the same time.  The TV will need to be set to gun 2, and I bet you'll have the same limit as above, if the limit is true.


About 2 lightguns and analog+:

Normal lightgun "support": triggers are seen as separate buttons (using directX & winMe/98), but both guns effect both crosshairs (using win32 api).  This results in semi playablity; you'll notice zero problems is long as both guns don't shoot at the same time.  If they shoot at the same time, the win23 api mame and Analog+ uses to get the location thinks there is only one gun (mouse); thus both guns shoot the same place.  This is a limit of WINDOWS win32 api.  Not the gun device driver, not the gun hardware.  If the TV guns just are a simple switchable trigger <==> button assignment, I bet the same thing will happen when used in any game, not only mame.

Alpha multiple lightgun support: I need testers.  I'm testing two methods; the one I didn't think would work very well actually works sometimes, the one I thought was the better way needs more editting.  Both need win98 or win98 and directX 8 (8.1, 9.0), just like the mulitple mouse support in Analog+.  Both use directX to try to get the location the gun is shooting at.

The fact that one of the method works at all (plus the normal lightgun "support", above) seems to me to prove that the PC guns are not hardware limited to one player.  Nor are they windows driver limited.  It's F#$%@* windows itself, again.

I'm waiting what actlabs has to say about the trigger at the same time thingie.

[anthony691]

What?  you can use a VGA and a TV gun at the same time?  how does that work?  is that documented on a website anywhere?  I really want to see it...
If only ActLabs made a dual TV/VGA, 2 player  compatible gun then I would be sold.. or some sort of adapters like X-arcade so that it would never be obsolete...  Modular is they way to go I say.. Maybe someday......

I like to think that the admin was joking when he said this even though he was probably right. Later in his post there he said you would need to use a TV and a VGA monitor! Which is simply ridiculous! I mean... you know... it's sorta cool. You would have to switch the TV gun to 2 and leave the VGA gun to be 1.

[Rasher2k]

Is Actlabs deliberately trying to be vague by giving us only snippets of detail about their 'new' PC TV Light Gun? Until I see hard evidence from Actlabs I'll continue being a skeptic.


JIMMY - ACT LABS (in the forum):
QUOTE: The first new feature is a two-player mode...
----------------------------------
Woohoo! We have two light guns hooked up to the PC! John Woo bring it on!


ACT LABS USB PC Light Gun TV Out Version (on the web page):
QUOTE: Only one light gun can be used at a time...
----------------------------------
Whoa whoa, hang on, didn't we want to use both of them at the same time? Wasn't that the whole point of having two guns? So we could Woo it with two? Whats the point of having two if you can't use them together? You may as well just have one!


GRANT - ACT LABS (in the forum):
QUOTE: There is really no obstacles in getting the 2 player implemented into MAME. We just contacted a developer from MAME. The only obstacle is getting the people to reserve some time to implement it into the MAME code.
----------------------------------
So there are two guns, one for each player, so technically it's two player right? But not simultaneously, as mentioned above. So this leaves me thinkin' the code in MAME is just gonna be a switching flag telling the guns which one of them is operating at any one time.

Are they trying to fool us into buying a 'two-player mode' light gun where the second play has their shot only when the first player is finished? So they're really 'two-player' ALTERNATING light guns? That's not how you make porridge! Nor 'two-player' light guns for that matter...

[shmokes]

Like everyone else I hope there will be simultaneous two player support but here's a quote from the details page for the TV USB gun on the Act-Labs website:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

Two player support could include games where you have to take turns trading off who gets the gun.  The detail page says very clearly:  Only one light gun can be used at a time

[cuthulas]

Maybe this post should be made a temporary sticky?  I just emailed Act Labs with my pre-order number for the first light gun and told them to bump my order to two ONLY IF the gun is coming with the additional features (autofire [in some games] and 2-player support).  I received a reply within the hour confirming an additional gun added to my pre-order.

Now, just cross our fingers that the MAME gurus add the necessary coding for the 2-player gun support.  Even if MAME is temporarily without it, 2-player gun games of any type (no matter how crappy) tend to be a blast.

Cuth  

[Frostillicus]

wow i've never seen a thread so small with so many of the posts by one person -ahem,  there is a 'modify' button to edit posts in the corner.

Just went to their site, the TV light gun sales section had this at the bottom of the page(i added the italics):
---
Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

[rampy]

You guys crack me up!  have you been reading this thread?

I've pointed out the "quote" feature, the "modify" feature... and posted that paragraph that everyone is copying and pasting (ironically we all emphasised the "one light gun used at a time phrase differently - I bolded, someone else underlined, and frosty italicised)

*shrug* I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding/half-arsed web site maintenance =P

I was just trying to bust anthony's stones a bit for his untempered enthusiasm for the AL guns =P

rampy

EDIT: FWIW act-labs has responded in their forum and made it clear that it does (the tv gun) 2 players concurrently... and that they just hadn't updated(!) that particular page we've been obssessing over...

*Shrug*

[anthony691]

wow i've never seen a thread so small with so many of the posts by one person -ahem,  there is a 'modify' button to edit posts in the corner.

The reason I have been posting new posts instead of modifiying them is I think it might be slightly more helpful this way.

[brandon]

usually if someone modifies their post I never see it because I pick up where I left off and read from there... but if its something added within a few minutes I think you should use the modify definately.. and you're right the " Only one light gun can be used at a time" has been posted about a dozen times already.  I'm not buying anything unless its a sure thing and they officially support a feature that I'm looking for.

[Frostillicus]

You guys crack me up!  have you been reading this thread?

I've pointed out the "quote" feature, the "modify" feature... and posted that paragraph that everyone is copying and pasting (ironically we all emphasised the "one light gun used at a time phrase differently - I bolded, someone else underlined, and frosty italicised)

*shrug* I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding/half-arsed web site maintenance =P

I was just trying to bust anthony's stones a bit for his untempered enthusiasm for the AL guns =P

rampy

EDIT: FWIW act-labs has responded in their forum and made it clear that it does (the tv gun) 2 players concurrently... and that they just hadn't updated(!) that particular page we've been obssessing over...

*Shrug*

Yeah i read the whole post and i swear I didn't see that quote i ripped from act-labs anywhere else on it.   although, on retrospect...I may not have clicked on page 2  

[Rasher2k]

Alrighty then,

This is from Grant - ACT LABS, but I guess you've already seen it.

The TV USB Light Gun page wasn't updated yet.
Two TV guns can be used simultaneously independantly. This gun will report as a 4 button device, but the gun will only use two of them. The first gun will only use button 1 & 2 and the second gun will only use button 3 & 4. The game will associate button 3/4 for the second gun and button 1/2 for the first gun. When both guns fire at similar times, the first gun will register button 1 first and then its x/y position in sequence; the second gun will register button 3 and then its x/y position in sequence. Button 2 & 4 will be used for a reload even. The only time the application will miss the first x/y position event is if the two players fire each trigger at once within 10 milliseconds (limitation of the USB Full-Speed pipeline). The chances of this occuring is very rare, unless you can trigger the gun 100 times per second.

So really the dual gun system is seen by windows as a 4 button mouse: player ones' gun uses buttons 1&2 and player twos' 3&4, both sharing the mouses' x and y. Well, that doesn't really address any of the inherent  problems with dual gunmanship. Does it? Didn't somebody previously get two guns working that shared the same mouse pos with the same limitations?

Ahh well, it's the way I always imagined it would be done anyway. With only a 10 millisecond limitation on input cross-over I wonder how much of a detriment to the gameplay it would actually be?

Ever seen people playing gun games like Point Blank in the arcade? They point their finger trigger sideways to the gun and hammer the trigger like a lunatic, achieving an astounding rate of fire. Not exactly 100 times a second, but when you're both doing the same thing the odds are you'll get quite a few blocked shots. (Ahh, reminds me of keyboard hacks...)

Anyways, I spose I should be happy they have two players simultaneously. I guess I just dont want my shot blocked while trying to take out the rocket heading for my side of the screen while my mate mows down the bad guys on his.

We need a beta test, stat!

[brandon]

I think what he said was a little misleading... he said if you can hit the trigger 100 times a sec but its really just a matter of both players hitting the trigger at the same time within 1/100th of a sec... (btw, 10 millisec =1/100th)   I dont guess thats very likely to happen very often.. even if something pops up on the screen and both players fire at the same time its probably not gonna be with 1/100th of a sec.  but if both players are firing like mad I guess it is gonna happen sometimes.  oh well, its better than nothing perhaps it wont even be noticable during gameplay, which is all that matters....

[u_rebelscum]

I think what he said was a little misleading... he said if you can hit the trigger 100 times a sec but its really just a matter of both players hitting the trigger at the same time within 1/100th of a sec... (btw, 10 millisec =1/100th)   I dont guess thats very likely to happen very often.. even if something pops up on the screen and both players fire at the same time its probably not gonna be with 1/100th of a sec.  but if both players are firing like mad I guess it is gonna happen sometimes.  oh well, its better than nothing perhaps it wont even be noticable during gameplay, which is all that matters....

Not going to work without pretty big of changes in mame.  Or, it will work without any changes, as long as the two players don't pull the trigger within ~1/60th of sec (ie: mame's refresh rate, not the USB limit act labs quoted).  Windows can only see one location with the win32 api function that mame uses.  Mame only looks at the location (unbuffered) once a screen refresh, which is usually the original game's refresh (~60Hz).

I guess actlabs wants mame to go to a buffered win32 mouse read.  It'll be slower and less game friendly.  Hmm..., the mouse buttons probably will need to be switched to win32 api buffered read also.  Yuck.  As long it works, I guess.

[Siris]

Wooohooo!

Dr. J is the man!

I just got the first gun the lip sang or whatever. It's way too late to do anything with it tonight but will definately put it thru some tests and let everyone know my opinion about this gun, then I plan on disassembeling it and showing you all the innards as I did with the Act-Labs gun.
BTW, Dr. J also sent me his old GS gun system which I plan taking the parts from one of those and putting into this and making it so I can swap the guns between my USB Act-Labs gun and this more realistic looking lip sang gun!
I'll post pics of it all!
BTW: Dr. J Did send these to me with his own cash asking simply that I just send him a check for the amount for sending!
Thanks Again Dr. J

[Dak-ak]

seems like a surprisingly high amount of disagreement and confusion over something that should either work or not work.. tsk tsk actlabs...

if the limiting factor for 2 gun play is actually windows and mame, wouldn't the pc gun also have 2 player support once the tv gun has it?  id like to give a pc gun a try on my arcade monitor (via the badass arcadevga) but want to check before i order 2 guns...  makes sense to me...

~Dak~