Act-Lab's TV gun to support 2 players?

[OSCAR]

Unverified, but this seems to have been written by someone who's been in contact with Act-Labs.  Two player support and auto-fire on the TV guns?  I figured somebody may be interested...

http://www.lightgun.tk/

See the news posted March 1, 2003.

[Sasquatch!]

     

[Bill_S]

Oh how I want that to be true, but I'm not too optimistic since that is contradictory to what the actlabs web site says today.

[BASSOFeeSH]

If this is true then I wish they'd annouce it.  

I'm sure they suddenly be *way* over the pre-order limit from people ordering a 2nd unit.

[Brax]

That was their first attempt at a gun system and frankly.... it blew dead bears.

[Siris]

Actually, it's new!

http://www.act-labs.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000145

Btw: Hello All, I used to frequent here a lot way back when can't seem to remember what nick I used though. heh
Anyway I am just starting a new MAME cab so may be posting occasionally again.  

[anthony691]

That is my site and indeed it is true ( I should have included a link to Jimmy's post ) This is WAY cool! It seems like they fixed most of the big probs w/ the gun. Well, if any of you folks buy one, I would like to hear about it (as I don't plan on shelling out the cash)

[anthony691]

One other thing, if you are going to buy a Light Gun if you buy it from he link at my site I get a kickback from Act-Labs and it would be GREATLY apreciated. Thanks a lot.

[anthony691]

Oh, and Brax, it wasn't thier first attempt. They had a few before it; they remained rather ubscure for some reason or another.

[Brax]

Oh, and Brax, it wasn't thier first attempt. They had a few before it; they remained rather ubscure for some reason or another.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure they originally had a two gun game port version that didn't work on much more than the supplied demos.

[brandon]

I wonder if they are going to add 2-player support for their next run of PC USB Lightguns.. The ideal setup would be a 2 player setup on an arcade or computer monitor..  I dont know if I want to deal with fuzzy TV quality just to play 2 player gun games...  If its just a driver change then maybe it will work with the existing PC USB guns and that would absolutely rule!

[Sasquatch!]

Allright, who's the IMPOSTER registered as "Sasquatch" already over at the Act-Labs forums??  

[anthony691]

The USB PC Light Gun will *NOT* be able to be made 2 player. The hardware isn't really capable of it. (there have been a few decent results w/ analoge MAME) Besides that, don' t expect them to realease a "driver update" that could fix the problem. I know it isn't a good situation! And Brax you gave a acuurate description of the Light Gun GS (now discontinued) I am gonna buy Lik Sangs gun instead of the TV USB Light gun I think...

[dwyzane]

Which of Lik Sang's Guns are you opting to buy? And PLZ give a review for us.

[anthony691]

Note that I am not sure, but I am stuck between his Virtual and Bio guns; right now I am flat broke from my new cab.

[u_rebelscum]

The USB PC Light Gun will *NOT* be able to be made 2 player. The hardware isn't really capable of it. (there have been a few decent results w/ analoge MAME) Besides that, don' t expect them to realease a "driver update" that could fix the problem. I know it isn't a good situation! And Brax you gave a acuurate description of the Light Gun GS (now discontinued) I am gonna buy Lik Sangs gun instead of the TV USB Light gun I think...

Any idea on how the TV gun is going to do 2 players?

Also, I don't see any hardware problems with two PC monitor lightguns.  Almost all problems are on the OS & software end.  
All explanations I've read (can't serial because second one will block first one's flash, both share same memory location, serialing them messes up the timing) is either false, due to software, or will happen after a lot of use (quicker break down).  Of course, I just got my second lightgun, so that last one is the biggest possibility.

[Howard_Casto]

Note that I am not sure, but I am stuck between his Virtual and Bio guns; right now I am flat broke from my new cab.

I don't want to go into details, but the bio guns and the other guns at liksang and crappy repackaging of older guns that never quite worked right (similar to act labs first generation of gameport guns).  The safe money would be to stay with the act-labs guns, which do in fact work well, contrary to your belief.

[anthony691]

Contrary to MY BELIEF??? You probably should have read a few more of my posts (or checked out my site www.lightgun.tk) And you would then relize I am an Act-Labs associate, and would CERTAINLY NOT endorse a product I don't like! Thank you for warning me about the Lik-Sang guns. Just don't be so presumptous. And if anyone was wondering I don't think that their Associate Program is worth while.

[Dr. J]

I have to call BS when I see it.  
FIRST:  If you are even considering getting a pc virtual light gun then you haven't read a single post at this board regarding light guns before.  Everyone who owns one has said they're junk.  Mine is sitting in the closet collecting dust, and not after trying to get it to work.

SECOND:  As U_rebelscum stated, it doesn't matter if you're shooting a tv screen or a computer screen.  It's not a hardware issue.  I can play with two USB lightguns on my computer screen.  The problem is OS and software.  Currently the two guns fight over the same cursor, so if both are fired at the same time, it will only recognize one of the guns.  I've tested this myself.  I suggest you give it a try and see for yourself.   So why doesn't this work with analogmame+?  If you'd read older posts here you'd know.  u_rebelscum did it with dx and AL didn't.  That's what U_rebel's working on now.

THIRD:  The older AL guns weren't meant to be run in mame, and were crap.  I have those in my closet collecting dust as well.  In fact, if someone's willing to pay shipping and handling I'll send them my PC virtual light gun, AND my actlabs GS guns.  However, the new usb guns work very well in mame currently.  There just isn't 2 player support yet.  I completed a game of virtual cop using the AL guns without problem, and I consider that a pretty challenging test to the guns accuracy.

One other thing, if you are going to buy a Light Gun if you buy it from he link at my site I get a kickback from Act-Labs and it would be GREATLY apreciated. Thanks a lot.

FOURTH:  If they're not even announcing it at their official site, then I'm not necessarily going to believe this from someone who could make whatever statement they want to get "kickbacks."  

FIFTH:  I hope they do get two player support, but as it stands right now, it will happen because of a software change.  Even the new guns plug in with the usb cable.  The only difference is the monitor/tv pass thru, and as I've already stated, that's not the problem.  

[Howard_Casto]

Contrary to MY BELIEF??? You probably should have read a few more of my posts (or checked out my site www.lightgun.tk) And you would then relize I am an Act-Labs associate, and would CERTAINLY NOT endorse a product I don't like! Thank you for warning me about the Lik-Sang guns. Just don't be so presumptous. And if anyone was wondering I don't think that their Associate Program is worth while.

Sorry about that but see it from my perspective:  

So your telling me you will "support" a product if they give you money for re-directed sales and yet when it comes time for you to buy a gun you won't buy it from them??  How sleazy, dirty and under handed is that?  

I would suggest you only put endorsments to products you've actually used on your site.  It would be much more honest of you.  

Btw everybody and their momma is an act-labs associate.  I was asked to put a act-labs banner on the lazarus site for commission but couldn't do it in good conscience as I hadn't bought one yet.  (waiting for the tv version, which I have on pre-order)  My point is, being an "associate" doesn't mean anything.    

I legitimately support act-labs as I've owned many of the guns from the competiton and seen the superior act-labs guns in action first hand.

[brandon]

are the act labs guns in anyways modular?  ie. could you take a PC Usb gun and plug it into the Pass thru dongle on the TV gun and make it work?  If not I dont understand why they dont make it that way so that people would know it could be upgraded later.... I know I would buy one if I knew that later down they road I could add a second gun or connect my PC gun to a TV with a different module or whatever... just seems like it would make more sense to do it that way even for their own production cost.  I'm guessing that if someone took the PC gun and TV gun apart the only real difference would be in the pass through circuitry and not in the gun itself.. so in that sense the old actlabs guns might be worth having just for spare parts....

[Dak-ak]

*crosses legs to hid bulge* 2 players huh?  *has dirty thoughts of 1 player double-fisted area51*

i was wondering if anyone (perhaps one of the actlab guys) know if the tv gun will work with arcade monitors (being fairly similiar).  Im going to hook up a arcadevga one of these days...

last part, how do the guns actually plug in?  ive been looking for diagrams, but havn't had any luck.  They have a dongle that plugs into the video card, and some usb plug somewhere, but im curious how the plugs are arranged and how long hte cables are (tryuing to plan a outlay for my cab)

~Dak~

[anthony691]

Wow... everyone needs to calm down! Dr. J, talk to Jimmy at Act-Labs (It is true)! I do own 2 lightguns, but have recieved unplayable results (like at which point having no mouse in Win98 (Which is because of Win98) I haven't done too much with dual guns, because right now i only have one on my cab, and I actully own a CRT monitor that does NOT work with the gun (obviosly because it is Sun, but it has a standard 15 pin plug). And I LOVE my light gun! I just wish everyone here would be a LITTLE less doubting. Someone linked to Jimmy's post earlier in this thread. And if we all know anything it is that Act-Labs NEVER updates thier site (they still have 33 games on thier list) So I meant that thier current PC USB Light Gun could not be very good for 2 player (and that I like it best in analoge MAME for some reason). Come on people I was only trying to be helpful by digging up the game info garbage, and talking to Jimmy about this stuff; I wish this would be slightly better recieved. If I angered you I am sorry.

[anthony691]

Oh, and as for the aradevga question check out act-labs Pc lightgun forum (I think there is a post that will be very helpful on this topic) There have been pretty good results using the plain old PC USB Light Gun!  

[rampy]

Hey Ant691,

I think part of the problem is that you are using blanket statements and backing them up with your "credibility" (i.e. I have a lightgun dedicated website (which is cool, BTW) and am an actlabs associate... I'm an amazon.com associate does that make me a book expert?)

In specific where is the backup on the current PC USB (VGA varient) guns hypothetically not being upgradeable to 2 guns, and where does it state that its a "hardware" issue.  I'd just like clarification.  I'd settle for a link to a "Jimmy" post on the actlabs board that stated as such. (Don't Jimmy, me jules!)

In this forum, we are all (or a good portion) very excited about Act Labs PC light guns and have spent time in money with many crappy light guns (including act labs usb one=P) trying to get 2 guns to work simultaneously...  So you have an eager audience here for this type of news...   but that doesn't mean we're naive or don't believe everything we read on the internet.

What you say may be true (and most of us hope it is - except for the existing usb gun not  being "upgradable" to 2 gun action) but you didn't pass what you said off credibly... because of the way in which you said it... *shrug*  I'm sorry if you got a shite storm outa this, but I can see how that happened.

Good luck

rampy

[Siris]

Hello Dak-ak,

You can see a pic of the USB version of the gun and VGA pass-thru box here:

http://www.geocities.com/ld_mame/gun.html

The exact measurements are as follows:

VGA cable is 15"
USB cable is 28"
Gun cable is 78"

In my opinion the VGA cable should be a little longer.
I also am under the impression that there is no reason that they can't make a 2 player VGA model if they can do it on the TV version.
If they do plan on one and haven't mentioned it I will be a little upset since I just bought this one. :/

Anyway, I do have more clearer closeup pics of all the wiring that I can put up if there is any interest.

[Dr. J]

Siris was the "first come, first served" about my offer to send my guns for shipping (yes, I was serious).  So, everyone can ask him in a week or so what he thinks of the pc virtual gun, and the older actlabs gs gun system.  

I didn't intend to be accusatory or insulting in my earlier post.  Everyone knows how expensive this hobby can become.  I've spent a lot more than expected.  The only time I become really disappointed and even mad is when a product doesn't deliver.  This board is about keeping others from making mistakes I've made.

I really will be excited if the 2 player support is coming, but I'm going to be doubtful until they either post it on their site or send me an email.  I've received several emails from them concerning their upcoming guns, as I am probably one of their worst nagging customers when it comes to this.  I've been pushing them for duel gun support and trying to get them to look at U_rebelscum's work for quite a while now.  

Also,  I am sorry if I was rude.  I just started a forensic pathology rotation on Tuesday and witnessed some extremely disturbing stuff involving children, and I may have used this thread as a whipping boy.  My apologies for any insult.

[Lilwolf]

hehe, Howard, I think that was the nices slam I've ever seen from you... Not even a hint of namecalling, just a logical response..

I think you need to change back to the shining icon... you seem to nice with the new one  

[lightspeed]

Can someone please clarify this thread?  

Has AL suggested that 2-player guns are coming, or not?     That seems to be only heresy based on a discussion in a forum.   I can't see where on their actual site they actually mention it.

[anthony691]

Jimmy (an Act-Labs emplyee) has said in thier forum that it will be 2 player. You can check it out, there is a link earlier in this thread. As for saying I was an assciate that was only to show that with any honesty I like the gun. IN FACT IF YOU WANT TO KNOW, JUST SEE FOR YOURSELF! Just jump into thier forum, it is one of their only posts. And frankly I think I larger userbase there would be nice. So go check it out! It is not hearsay; just go take a look Oh, and I have no beef w/ anyone here, and can see how hard it would be to believe this.

[Lilwolf]

btw, they COULD EASILY create a 2 player version of the PC without software changes....

make hardware ones!

If they sold another PC USB lightgun that worked along with the other one (like the current one, but it doesn't store the mouse click location in teh same place) it would be GREAT!

[anthony691]

In fact, the link is in reply #5

[anthony691]

There is a new post by another AL admin, they have gone into production!

[rampy]

In fact, the link is in reply #5

You might want to try the "reply with quote" function as I have no idea who you are replying to.

I've seen that link... I've browsed the actlab forum... and no where did I see anything about "hardware" and limitations on the original usb pc vga guns.

I am glad to see (thanks for pointing it out) that the TV usb guns will be going into production... (although I don't need one).  Kudos for them promising simultaneous gun action for tv version.

I'm still skeptical though:

here's what jimmy said

The first new feature is a two-player mode which will allow two PC TV Light Guns to be used in two-player supported games. We are trying hard to get two-player support on MAME. The second feature is auto-fire. Only games such as Terminator 2 and Operation Wolf (for MAME), which support auto-fire, will work with this new feature.

which makes me wonder about their approach to getting 2 person support.  i.e. the bad old days of having very specific drivers only put in to certain games (which may be a reason it's not easily incorporated/added into mame)... *shrug* but what do I know.

I'm looking forward to dualie gun action (whenever/however it comes) but i'm not going to become a fanboy and just swallow whatever actlabs says without quesitoning it...

in fact - I'm going to bop over and question it =P

rampy  

[Dr. J]

As much as I have my hopes up, notice the phrasing:  "We are trying hard to get 2-player support on MAME."     Read as:  "We don't have it yet, but we're trying."

[anthony691]

Yeah Dr. J, but I don't think they would get our hopes up all for not. They are pretty honest! A new post says that they went into production and if you want to up your pre-order to 2 gun they can do it. This gives me the impression they mean sooner rather then later, and that they 2 player would be official so there would be support ect.

[Howard_Casto]

just to clarify u_rebelscum has already gotten the guns to work in two player mode in windows 98 (via analog mame of course).  

This proves to me that it's a software problem.  However the "software" that's at fault is the windows operating system itself so xp and 2000 support is still gonna be tough if not impossible.  

[rampy]

just to clarify u_rebelscum has already gotten the guns to work in two player mode in windows 98 (via analog mame of course).  

wa-wa-wa-what!?  Did I miss a thread?

I know its been made to "sorta" work before, is there something new I missed?

Rampy

[anthony691]

I know about U_rebelscums good work (keep it up  )! ACT-LABS HAS LAUNCHED THIER NEW SITE! How much is going to happen all the while we discuss this?  They have STILL not made my corrections to thier gamelist (one of them being Hit 'n Miss 2 dosn't exist there is only a revision; and the rest being updates) They repeatedly said that when they updated the site that they would fix this. Also note that thier forum was down as of 6:48 when i worte this post

[anthony691]

And I qoute thier new Gun Systems page's description "TV USB LIGHT GUN
This one is for all our loyal MAME supporters out there. PC USB Light Gun with TV output and two-player support. Enjoy!" That seems like a pretty official statement! Note that the in-depth description made no mention of this. I sorta liked thier site better before...

[rampy]

Heh, after you try  out the "quote" feature, also try out the "modify" feature of the message board.... unless you are trying to crank up your post count =P

They mighta just updated the site so they can switch to their new pricing scheme (the introductory price for the regular PC usb light guns is OVER!)

=P

RAmpy

EDIT1: well look at this http://www.act-labs.com/scripts/proddetails.asp?pid=132
Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

emphasis mine... wtf?! even act-labs posts conflicting info.... *Shrug*

[anthony691]

Heh, after you try  out the "quote" feature, also try out the "modify" feature of the message board.... unless you are trying to crank up your post count =P

They mighta just updated the site so they can switch to their new pricing scheme (the introductory price for the regular PC usb light guns is OVER!)

=P

RAmpy

EDIT1: well look at this http://www.act-labs.com/scripts/proddetails.asp?pid=132
Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

emphasis mine... wtf?! even act-labs posts conflicting info.... *Shrug*

I know rampy, this makes things terribly confusing, but I mentioned that the in depth description says that. My guess is because It IS the same old content for that page as always, I think they have yet to change alot of things. Hey I think I saw the name rampy somwhere... was it the MAMEWorld forums or Act-Labs? And rampy, if you didn't relize I was refering to the page before that one in a brief description (the page had the PC USB Light gun, the TV Usb Light gun, and Maddog 1+2) Oh, sorry for not qouteing I am not used to this forum, I frequent at MAME.net recently and other places where such qouting is usually unnessisary because of the whole "reply to a reply" thing, does that have a formal name?

[unclet]

I called Act-Labs today and was inform the new TV USB guns will come with the newer hardware to allow two gun to be used at the same time.  However, they informed me they need to get the software in Mame updated to support this.   They told me it is strictly a software thing in order to get dual player light gun games working.

Basically, I can get my one pre-ordered TV lightgun and play games until Mame is updated with dual Act-Labs light gun support, and then simply buy another Act-Lab TV gun tohave more fun.

[Sasquatch!]

hehe, Howard, I think that was the nices slam I've ever seen from you... Not even a hint of namecalling, just a logical response..

I think you need to change back to the shining icon... you seem to nice with the new one  

Yeah really.  Who is that tooty-fruity in his avatar anyway?

[Siris]

Well, I guess the 2 player TV thing is official and it's also possible to use a VGA gun with a TV gun for 2 players, BUT I have yet to see anything saying anything about 2 player with 2 VGA guns!
That is what I and I'm sure many other are concerned about.

[Dr. J]

I'm still not sure what they're doing  It does say 2-player support, but it also says something interesting under the notes section at the bottom of the page.  Here's a cut and paste and I underlined the part that interests me.

"Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

[anthony691]

I'm still not sure what they're doing  It does say 2-player support, but it also says something interesting under the notes section at the bottom of the page.  Here's a cut and paste and I underlined the part that interests me.

"Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

I think that is soley because it is old content   They didn't update any REAL heavy content. There were more informitive admin posts in thier forum.

[anthony691]

Well, I guess the 2 player TV thing is official and it's also possible to use a VGA gun with a TV gun for 2 players, BUT I have yet to see anything saying anything about 2 player with 2 VGA guns!
That is what I and I'm sure many other are concerned about.

It is very unofficial and AL dosn't support it, but it works! I will admit am not the expert (I have done it though) I think I have found the real expert to be U_rebelscum, so if you have questions I think he could probably best answer them.

[brandon]

Well, I guess the 2 player TV thing is official and it's also possible to use a VGA gun with a TV gun for 2 players, BUT I have yet to see anything saying anything about 2 player with 2 VGA guns!
That is what I and I'm sure many other are concerned about.

What?  you can use a VGA and a TV gun at the same time?  how does that work?  is that documented on a website anywhere?  I really want to see it...
If only ActLabs made a dual TV/VGA, 2 player  compatible gun then I would be sold.. or some sort of adapters like X-arcade so that it would never be obsolete...  Modular is they way to go I say.. Maybe someday......

[u_rebelscum]

Reading the forum, it seems the TV model will be able to switch one of the triggers to button 3 of the mouse.  If that's all the changes actlabs did, you won't be able to pull both triggers at the same; both guns will shoot at the same spot.  If actlabs added a delay also, it might work.  
For the "Only one light gun can be used at a time" note listed on http://www.act-labs.com/scripts/proddetails.asp?pid=132 it sounds like you can only pull one trigger at a time, unless this is an un-updated leftover from earlier.

Reading the forum, you can use the TV and the PC guns at the same time, the TV one on a TV, the PC on a PC monitor, and you need a video card that outputs both at the same time.  The TV will need to be set to gun 2, and I bet you'll have the same limit as above, if the limit is true.


About 2 lightguns and analog+:

Normal lightgun "support": triggers are seen as separate buttons (using directX & winMe/98), but both guns effect both crosshairs (using win32 api).  This results in semi playablity; you'll notice zero problems is long as both guns don't shoot at the same time.  If they shoot at the same time, the win23 api mame and Analog+ uses to get the location thinks there is only one gun (mouse); thus both guns shoot the same place.  This is a limit of WINDOWS win32 api.  Not the gun device driver, not the gun hardware.  If the TV guns just are a simple switchable trigger <==> button assignment, I bet the same thing will happen when used in any game, not only mame.

Alpha multiple lightgun support: I need testers.  I'm testing two methods; the one I didn't think would work very well actually works sometimes, the one I thought was the better way needs more editting.  Both need win98 or win98 and directX 8 (8.1, 9.0), just like the mulitple mouse support in Analog+.  Both use directX to try to get the location the gun is shooting at.

The fact that one of the method works at all (plus the normal lightgun "support", above) seems to me to prove that the PC guns are not hardware limited to one player.  Nor are they windows driver limited.  It's F#$%@* windows itself, again.

I'm waiting what actlabs has to say about the trigger at the same time thingie.

[anthony691]

What?  you can use a VGA and a TV gun at the same time?  how does that work?  is that documented on a website anywhere?  I really want to see it...
If only ActLabs made a dual TV/VGA, 2 player  compatible gun then I would be sold.. or some sort of adapters like X-arcade so that it would never be obsolete...  Modular is they way to go I say.. Maybe someday......

I like to think that the admin was joking when he said this even though he was probably right. Later in his post there he said you would need to use a TV and a VGA monitor! Which is simply ridiculous! I mean... you know... it's sorta cool. You would have to switch the TV gun to 2 and leave the VGA gun to be 1.

[Rasher2k]

Is Actlabs deliberately trying to be vague by giving us only snippets of detail about their 'new' PC TV Light Gun? Until I see hard evidence from Actlabs I'll continue being a skeptic.


JIMMY - ACT LABS (in the forum):
QUOTE: The first new feature is a two-player mode...
----------------------------------
Woohoo! We have two light guns hooked up to the PC! John Woo bring it on!


ACT LABS USB PC Light Gun TV Out Version (on the web page):
QUOTE: Only one light gun can be used at a time...
----------------------------------
Whoa whoa, hang on, didn't we want to use both of them at the same time? Wasn't that the whole point of having two guns? So we could Woo it with two? Whats the point of having two if you can't use them together? You may as well just have one!


GRANT - ACT LABS (in the forum):
QUOTE: There is really no obstacles in getting the 2 player implemented into MAME. We just contacted a developer from MAME. The only obstacle is getting the people to reserve some time to implement it into the MAME code.
----------------------------------
So there are two guns, one for each player, so technically it's two player right? But not simultaneously, as mentioned above. So this leaves me thinkin' the code in MAME is just gonna be a switching flag telling the guns which one of them is operating at any one time.

Are they trying to fool us into buying a 'two-player mode' light gun where the second play has their shot only when the first player is finished? So they're really 'two-player' ALTERNATING light guns? That's not how you make porridge! Nor 'two-player' light guns for that matter...

[shmokes]

Like everyone else I hope there will be simultaneous two player support but here's a quote from the details page for the TV USB gun on the Act-Labs website:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

Two player support could include games where you have to take turns trading off who gets the gun.  The detail page says very clearly:  Only one light gun can be used at a time

[cuthulas]

Maybe this post should be made a temporary sticky?  I just emailed Act Labs with my pre-order number for the first light gun and told them to bump my order to two ONLY IF the gun is coming with the additional features (autofire [in some games] and 2-player support).  I received a reply within the hour confirming an additional gun added to my pre-order.

Now, just cross our fingers that the MAME gurus add the necessary coding for the 2-player gun support.  Even if MAME is temporarily without it, 2-player gun games of any type (no matter how crappy) tend to be a blast.

Cuth  

[Frostillicus]

wow i've never seen a thread so small with so many of the posts by one person -ahem,  there is a 'modify' button to edit posts in the corner.

Just went to their site, the TV light gun sales section had this at the bottom of the page(i added the italics):
---
Notes:

o Will not work with LCD/Plasma TVs or computer monitors
o Only one light gun can be used at a time
o Calibration required only once, unless light gun is re-connected
o Can be connected to TVs with Composite video input through supplied adapter

[rampy]

You guys crack me up!  have you been reading this thread?

I've pointed out the "quote" feature, the "modify" feature... and posted that paragraph that everyone is copying and pasting (ironically we all emphasised the "one light gun used at a time phrase differently - I bolded, someone else underlined, and frosty italicised)

*shrug* I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding/half-arsed web site maintenance =P

I was just trying to bust anthony's stones a bit for his untempered enthusiasm for the AL guns =P

rampy

EDIT: FWIW act-labs has responded in their forum and made it clear that it does (the tv gun) 2 players concurrently... and that they just hadn't updated(!) that particular page we've been obssessing over...

*Shrug*

[anthony691]

wow i've never seen a thread so small with so many of the posts by one person -ahem,  there is a 'modify' button to edit posts in the corner.

The reason I have been posting new posts instead of modifiying them is I think it might be slightly more helpful this way.

[brandon]

usually if someone modifies their post I never see it because I pick up where I left off and read from there... but if its something added within a few minutes I think you should use the modify definately.. and you're right the " Only one light gun can be used at a time" has been posted about a dozen times already.  I'm not buying anything unless its a sure thing and they officially support a feature that I'm looking for.

[Frostillicus]

You guys crack me up!  have you been reading this thread?

I've pointed out the "quote" feature, the "modify" feature... and posted that paragraph that everyone is copying and pasting (ironically we all emphasised the "one light gun used at a time phrase differently - I bolded, someone else underlined, and frosty italicised)

*shrug* I'm sure it's all a misunderstanding/half-arsed web site maintenance =P

I was just trying to bust anthony's stones a bit for his untempered enthusiasm for the AL guns =P

rampy

EDIT: FWIW act-labs has responded in their forum and made it clear that it does (the tv gun) 2 players concurrently... and that they just hadn't updated(!) that particular page we've been obssessing over...

*Shrug*

Yeah i read the whole post and i swear I didn't see that quote i ripped from act-labs anywhere else on it.   although, on retrospect...I may not have clicked on page 2  

[Rasher2k]

Alrighty then,

This is from Grant - ACT LABS, but I guess you've already seen it.

The TV USB Light Gun page wasn't updated yet.
Two TV guns can be used simultaneously independantly. This gun will report as a 4 button device, but the gun will only use two of them. The first gun will only use button 1 & 2 and the second gun will only use button 3 & 4. The game will associate button 3/4 for the second gun and button 1/2 for the first gun. When both guns fire at similar times, the first gun will register button 1 first and then its x/y position in sequence; the second gun will register button 3 and then its x/y position in sequence. Button 2 & 4 will be used for a reload even. The only time the application will miss the first x/y position event is if the two players fire each trigger at once within 10 milliseconds (limitation of the USB Full-Speed pipeline). The chances of this occuring is very rare, unless you can trigger the gun 100 times per second.

So really the dual gun system is seen by windows as a 4 button mouse: player ones' gun uses buttons 1&2 and player twos' 3&4, both sharing the mouses' x and y. Well, that doesn't really address any of the inherent  problems with dual gunmanship. Does it? Didn't somebody previously get two guns working that shared the same mouse pos with the same limitations?

Ahh well, it's the way I always imagined it would be done anyway. With only a 10 millisecond limitation on input cross-over I wonder how much of a detriment to the gameplay it would actually be?

Ever seen people playing gun games like Point Blank in the arcade? They point their finger trigger sideways to the gun and hammer the trigger like a lunatic, achieving an astounding rate of fire. Not exactly 100 times a second, but when you're both doing the same thing the odds are you'll get quite a few blocked shots. (Ahh, reminds me of keyboard hacks...)

Anyways, I spose I should be happy they have two players simultaneously. I guess I just dont want my shot blocked while trying to take out the rocket heading for my side of the screen while my mate mows down the bad guys on his.

We need a beta test, stat!

[brandon]

I think what he said was a little misleading... he said if you can hit the trigger 100 times a sec but its really just a matter of both players hitting the trigger at the same time within 1/100th of a sec... (btw, 10 millisec =1/100th)   I dont guess thats very likely to happen very often.. even if something pops up on the screen and both players fire at the same time its probably not gonna be with 1/100th of a sec.  but if both players are firing like mad I guess it is gonna happen sometimes.  oh well, its better than nothing perhaps it wont even be noticable during gameplay, which is all that matters....

[u_rebelscum]

I think what he said was a little misleading... he said if you can hit the trigger 100 times a sec but its really just a matter of both players hitting the trigger at the same time within 1/100th of a sec... (btw, 10 millisec =1/100th)   I dont guess thats very likely to happen very often.. even if something pops up on the screen and both players fire at the same time its probably not gonna be with 1/100th of a sec.  but if both players are firing like mad I guess it is gonna happen sometimes.  oh well, its better than nothing perhaps it wont even be noticable during gameplay, which is all that matters....

Not going to work without pretty big of changes in mame.  Or, it will work without any changes, as long as the two players don't pull the trigger within ~1/60th of sec (ie: mame's refresh rate, not the USB limit act labs quoted).  Windows can only see one location with the win32 api function that mame uses.  Mame only looks at the location (unbuffered) once a screen refresh, which is usually the original game's refresh (~60Hz).

I guess actlabs wants mame to go to a buffered win32 mouse read.  It'll be slower and less game friendly.  Hmm..., the mouse buttons probably will need to be switched to win32 api buffered read also.  Yuck.  As long it works, I guess.

[Siris]

Wooohooo!

Dr. J is the man!

I just got the first gun the lip sang or whatever. It's way too late to do anything with it tonight but will definately put it thru some tests and let everyone know my opinion about this gun, then I plan on disassembeling it and showing you all the innards as I did with the Act-Labs gun.
BTW, Dr. J also sent me his old GS gun system which I plan taking the parts from one of those and putting into this and making it so I can swap the guns between my USB Act-Labs gun and this more realistic looking lip sang gun!
I'll post pics of it all!
BTW: Dr. J Did send these to me with his own cash asking simply that I just send him a check for the amount for sending!
Thanks Again Dr. J

[Dak-ak]

seems like a surprisingly high amount of disagreement and confusion over something that should either work or not work.. tsk tsk actlabs...

if the limiting factor for 2 gun play is actually windows and mame, wouldn't the pc gun also have 2 player support once the tv gun has it?  id like to give a pc gun a try on my arcade monitor (via the badass arcadevga) but want to check before i order 2 guns...  makes sense to me...

~Dak~