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Author Topic: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1  (Read 72105 times)

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quarterback

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #120 on: December 14, 2006, 11:17:42 am »
Is "FAILURE" or a loss of "FIRE IN THE BELLY" over a stalled project too much of a humbling admission for a certain BYOAC'er to confess?

Must YE lead us on...and on...and on...???

Enough already.....just tell us a simple "sorry, it ain't gonna happen" so we can go our merry way and move on.

Sometimes the pressure of expectations by peers can make us spin a web to keep up appearances.

Helluva try tho, Julian. :cheers: 

That's the spirit! Keep up the encouragement and we'll all have Tron sticks that much faster.  :lame:

Agreed.  Giving Julian ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- isn't any way to garner favors.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 11:19:43 am by quarterback »
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #121 on: December 14, 2006, 12:16:59 pm »
Is "FAILURE" or a loss of "FIRE IN THE BELLY" over a stalled project too much of a humbling admission for a certain BYOAC'er to confess?

Must YE lead us on...and on...and on...???

Enough already.....just tell us a simple "sorry, it ain't gonna happen" so we can go our merry way and move on.

Sometimes the pressure of expectations by peers can make us spin a web to keep up appearances.

Helluva try tho, Julian. :cheers: 

These statements seem unnecessarily HARSH...Have you never seen the old Heinz Ketchup commercial?
"GOOD THINGS WILL COME TO THOSE WHO CAN WAIT!!"



EDIT: Blaah...Who am I trying to fool, I SUCK at waiting too!! Julian...March into work one day SOON and act like you own the damn place. Grab the Vacuum degasser like you own IT to, and get our dang Tron sticks done huh?

 :laugh2:  :laugh2:  JK kidding man!! I still don't need mine for at least 1-2 months...Take your time.   :laugh2:  :laugh2:
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 12:52:00 pm by Donkey_Kong »
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #122 on: December 14, 2006, 06:30:53 pm »
That's the spirit! Keep up the encouragement and we'll all have Tron sticks that much faster.  :lame:

Agreed.  Giving Julian ---Cleveland steamer--- isn't any way to garner favors.

Hey! don't panic guys....

I normally just ignore stupid comments from morons like WunderCade, but just this once, and just for his information, I'm not stringing anything or anybody out with this thread. All I'm doing is answering questions when people with genuine motives ask them.  I'd also point out that I've made it clear that there is NO guaranteed timescale on this project and it'll be done when it's done!!

He is quite clearly just a Troll out to cause trouble or somebody we all know masquerading under a different title. It ain't working, and my loyalties lie with the genuine guys here not some tit head that has decided to chime in just to piss people off.

It's not often I lose my temper with anybody, and I'm not wasting any more of my time on a loser like him either.  Thanks for you guys support here, but it's really not necessary, because he's such an insignificant  little :tool:

Best Regards
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #123 on: December 14, 2006, 07:16:45 pm »
OUCH!!!

Guess I hit a nerve, I always sucked at that game "Operation"...where you can't touch the sides.

Anyways, sorry Julian....I wasn't being negative...just giving you an out, buddy. :cheers:

Hope you prove me wrong...only time will tell and it appears you have time on your side and are using it quite liberally. :applaud:

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #124 on: December 14, 2006, 08:24:01 pm »
Gee I wish I wasn't the one to bring this subject back up now...But since I did  ::)

Here are my thoughts...
When Julian gets these done it will be win-win for him and "US". If he NEVER gets them done it will be kinda like: Nothing lost, nothing gained for "US". Either way "WE", really can't LOSE. The only person with the chance to lose (time and money) would be the person or people involved with the experiment.

I don't see how or why this is all so HARD to figure out. I'm pretty damn dumb myself but...I THINK I GOT IT!!

« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 08:25:48 pm by Donkey_Kong »
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2006, 09:30:16 pm »
The only person with the chance to lose (time and money) would be the person or people involved with the experiment.

Absolutely.... Doing a quick conversion from UK Pounds in my head... the costs to date including silicone and test casts are running at somewhre in excess of $250 USD.

That's a pretty big incentive to make it work as soon as it's practical. I would love to have spent that money on my cab, but I spent it on developing this so that everybody can benefit.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #126 on: December 15, 2006, 10:19:10 am »
Fozzy, do you have any kind of paypal button where you can accept donations and "thank you" money to help out with your expenses?

Z

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #127 on: December 15, 2006, 10:28:44 am »
<Havok is waiting patiently, and appreciates all of Julian's work to date...>

 :applaud:

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #128 on: December 15, 2006, 01:40:05 pm »
Fozzy, do you have any kind of paypal button where you can accept donations and "thank you" money to help out with your expenses?

Thank you for the kind offer... but I get my gratification from acheiving a result and doing something for the benefit of the other members here, and wouldn't dream of doing that.  I mean lets face it, if I was doing this just for myself I could have just bought an original TRON stick for way less money.

I'll be happy enough to get these finished and get them out to you guys as soon as I can, and that's all that matters.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:50:39 pm by Fozzy The Bear »
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #129 on: December 15, 2006, 11:44:05 pm »

Thank you for the kind offer... but I get my gratification from acheiving a result and doing something for the benefit of the other members here, and wouldn't dream of doing that.  I mean lets face it, if I was doing this just for myself I could have just bought an original TRON stick for way less money.

I'll be happy enough to get these finished and get them out to you guys as soon as I can, and that's all that matters.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Julian you are the man! I have an original Tron stick and a DOT stick that I've gotten since you started this project but I may buy one just to have an extra set of handles. I've noticed the originals are a little brittle after 20 years. Keep up the great work!

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2007, 12:31:01 am »
Thanks FTB, this thread is a great starting place for working with this stuff myself. I've started with some simple parts (the trigger and thumb plate) with some success, at least in terms of making the molds.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2007, 06:37:49 pm »
Thanks FTB, this thread is a great starting place for working with this stuff myself. I've started with some simple parts (the trigger and thumb plate) with some success, at least in terms of making the molds.

GREAT!!  That's part of the idea! that's the reason I posted the tutorial, so other people wouldn't be afraid to have a go at this.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2007, 09:25:25 am »
Here's my first mold, it's not too bad. I decided to start small, in this case, with the trigger.


My first cast didn't work out too well. I did not use enough catalyst for the amount of resin that I used. The mold, I'm fairly certain, is ruined. But that's ok because I know exactly what I need to do now. The part has a layer of sticky resin that probably won't come off. Or will it? I don't want to try anything I'm not sure of because of the possibility of unwanted chemical rxns.


I've got a broken Tempest spinner knob that I'm going to try next, I'll redo the trigger when I'm ready to take on the handle. It does take a lot a planning and patience.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2007, 09:30:00 am »
Looks like cheese on toast  :laugh2:

second one looks like mouldy cheese on toast  LOL

Hats off to you guys though as really I would have no clue  :dunno :dunno
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #134 on: February 13, 2007, 10:51:08 am »
My first cast didn't work out too well. I did not use enough catalyst for the amount of resin that I used. The mold, I'm fairly certain, is ruined. But that's ok because I know exactly what I need to do now. The part has a layer of sticky resin that probably won't come off. Or will it? I don't want to try anything I'm not sure of because of the possibility of unwanted chemical rxns.

If you are using that clear casting resin sold at the craft stores, you might as well hang it up.  That stuff always seems to come out sticky.  Adding extra hardener helps a little, but creates more heat and shrinkage.

BTW, where's the gate for the resin to enter the mold?


RandyT

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #135 on: February 13, 2007, 12:07:09 pm »
Looks like cheese on toast  :laugh2:

second one looks like mouldy cheese on toast  LOL

Hats off to you guys though as really I would have no clue  :dunno :dunno

Stop Teebor your making me hungry! :laugh2:


Seriously though guys good job on the effort. You never know one day this might just pay off and you will have the last laugh as like umpteen thousand byo members line up for Tron Sticks. 
 :applaud:
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2007, 12:08:40 pm »
Quote
If you are using that clear casting resin sold at the craft stores
Actually the mold rubber is, I forget the brand but it's latex and not silicone which caused me two problems:

1) Since there is no catalyst it must be brushed on in coats and each coat must be fully cured before the next coat is added.

2) I purchased Alumilite rubber to rubber mold release, I forget what it is called but that's the basic idea, it works but I had to add a tab to start the separation of the two halves. So the release was a little tricky but it worked. The latex is subject to plastic deformation if there are not enough layers when the two halves are pulled apart.

Quote
BTW, where's the gate for the resin to enter the mold?

My first plan involved a gate (if I know what you're talking about) however I decided to take a simpler approach and give the first half of the mold as much depth as possible. So the second half is only from one plane of the trigger up, that is, it contains the the pin and about one-third of the fat part of the trigger. Doing this I only had to worry about getting the resin into the mold and putting the two halves together before the resin could run out.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Maybe I need to do this in a separate thread.

One more thing, I forgot to heat up the mold before pouring the resin, how much will this affect the process? The excess seems to have done quite a bit better than what was in the mold, only slightly tacky.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 02:52:22 pm by lasersoup »

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #137 on: March 20, 2007, 06:35:06 pm »
I have done allot of casting, tried out every sort of resin and epoxy I could find. The best and least expensive (if you don't care about the color) is bondo fiberglass polyester resin.
It's like the environmental tech stuff but is stronger. The only drawback is that it it clear reddish purple. It's at least half the cost of anything else, it's not flexible but I haven't had any problems with it chipping (I make dice). It shrinks a little bit, and use it in a well ventelated area.
I haven't had too many problems with the ET stuff though, just give things a little extra hardener.
I don't know how well any of them would work with things like the tron handles. If you build up the backs of the handles with clay to make them thicker (perhaps allmost solid) it should work fine. If I was doing that I would mix something into the resin to stretch it and save money. I got really great results putting broken plastic bits into my resin (CD cases, taillight covers etc...).
Most hobby two part resins seem pretty brittle (Aluminite), and most casting expoxys are a bit rubbery. Epoxy glues work well but they shrink allot and take quite a while to cure.

Lasersoup- The latex rubber probably affected the cure of your resin, and the resin will probably destroy the rubber. That stuff is mostly used to make molds for plaster casts. I have used it and never got good results with resin. There aren't many replacements for silicone rubber that are any easier, you might be able to make a simple cast like that using a wax mould though. Small amounts of silicone are available from modeling supply stores, along with the special modeling clay that can be used with the silicone.

You could actually make a mold with allot less silicone rubber than Fozzy used, you only need about a 3mm layer of the silicone (enough to prevent tearing) and a support structure to hold it up (like the plaster he used). The thickener is not then needed, which will improve the detail of the cast. My favorite tip for this is to use Lego blocks to build a custom case around your mould, you can get it to a really tight fit, and then the Legos will act as a case to hold the whole thing while you are pouring.

For the trigger I would actually make a 1-part mould, simply make a slightly large sprue out of clay and support the trigger with it and then pour the silicone around it. When cured the silicone is fexible enough to remove the part through the sprute hole.

Another modeling process that would be of intrest is brass etching, you could easily make the light interrupter wheels for trackballs and spinners using this method.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #138 on: March 20, 2007, 11:08:55 pm »
Thanks Pook, I've given up on the latex and I've purchased some Dow Corning HSII. The latex was cheap but it took forever to make molds and I believe you're right about it affecting the resin and it probably has something to do with silicone being a better insulator than latex, I don't know. BTW the ET resin is what I've been working with, I'm going to have a go at working with alumilite which is actually a bit cheaper than the ET resin it's just not as readily available. Hopefully I'll have something to show for all this soon. Thanks again.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #139 on: April 12, 2007, 12:58:45 pm »

Don't know how I missed this thread before... but damn, great work, patiently awaiting the handles now too, I'm in for multiple sets when done.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #140 on: May 06, 2007, 03:06:15 pm »
Fozzy,

I've been following this thread as it has progressed. I have a question I'm hoping you can give me some info about.

Below is a pic of the restrictors in the Tron and DOT joysticks. I'm not an expert by any means but the seem to me to be made of some kind of fairly stiff urethane. Is there anything in the casting field that could be used to make these? It's one of the major differences between the two joysticks. Any help would be greatly appreciated. TIA!

Encryptor

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #141 on: May 07, 2007, 07:12:28 am »
Fozzy,

I've been following this thread as it has progressed. I have a question I'm hoping you can give me some info about.

Below is a pic of the restrictors in the Tron and DOT joysticks. I'm not an expert by any means but the seem to me to be made of some kind of fairly stiff urethane. Is there anything in the casting field that could be used to make these? It's one of the major differences between the two joysticks. Any help would be greatly appreciated. TIA!

Encryptor

Strangely enough.... yes there is.... First of all, for people who don't know why they're a different shape and why they're made of a tough rubber compound; The DOT restrictor is 8 Way... The TRON restrictor is 4 Way, but if you push hard enough you can hit 8 Way as it flexes the rubber.

Now on to recasting them.... First take a "soft grade" silicone rubber mold from them.  Then cast them in that mold from a "Hard Grade" Silicone Rubber. It should be just about right for the application. You can also get Urethane as a casting material, but it would in fact be too physically hard for the application. The originals are actually cast in the same rubber that is used for those clear skateboard wheels that you can get.

Hope that helps.....

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 07:14:02 am by Fozzy The Bear »
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #142 on: May 07, 2007, 07:19:13 am »

Strangely enough.... yes there is.... First of all, for people who don't know why they're a different shape and why they're made of a tough rubber compound; The DOT restrictor is 8 Way... The TRON restrictor is 4 Way, but if you push hard enough you can hit 8 Way as it flexes the rubber.


Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
i was wondering about this as klov has them both down as 8 ways , but tron is a 4 way is it?
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #143 on: May 07, 2007, 08:05:33 am »
i was wondering about this as klov has them both down as 8 ways , but tron is a 4 way is it?

Strictly speaking TRON is an 8 way..... But the restrictor makes it 4 way unless you push hard towards the diagonals whn you can hit two contacts at once. This is so that it behaves like a 4 way while you're playing the ligh cycles section. Otherwise that would be unplayable.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #144 on: May 07, 2007, 04:08:00 pm »
Fozzy,

Thanks for the info. I thought they were made of some kind of urethane or hard rubber. Any suggestions / links for the rubber? I'm sure there are several to choose from and I want to make sure to get the right one.

Encryptor

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #145 on: May 07, 2007, 09:56:09 pm »
Quote
...This is so that it behaves like a 4 way while you're playing the ligh cycles section. Otherwise that would be unplayable.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

I disagree. Even without a U360, one just has to be fairly precise in their directions. Of course, you could always map another stick on the panel for 4-way. Since I don't have a top-fire, and am right-handed, I use the spinner with my left and the 2P stick, with my pinky pushing the closest button for fire, etc. On the light cycles board, I switch to the 1P stick while still using the 2P button I use for other boards.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #146 on: May 07, 2007, 10:44:12 pm »
Quote
...This is so that it behaves like a 4 way while you're playing the light cycles section. Otherwise that would be unplayable.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

I disagree.

You can disagree all you like.... That's the way they were originally built.

If you play the Light Cycles with a normal 8 way, then you can hit the diagonals when you don't intend to and get very strange results, making it much harder to play.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #147 on: May 07, 2007, 10:51:18 pm »
Thanks for the info. I thought they were made of some kind of urethane or hard rubber. Any suggestions / links for the rubber? I'm sure there are several to choose from and I want to make sure to get the right one.

RTV Silicone Rubber usually comes in soft medium or hard grade.... You need the Hard Grade for the restrictor. Most commercial suppliers will understand this if you explain it to them. I could only give information for my local UK supplier, which is probably not much use to you.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
Most bottles and jars contain at least twenty-five percent recycled Pacman.
And research indicates that Space Invaders are strongly attracted to people who have recently eaten meat pies.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #148 on: May 21, 2007, 05:55:29 pm »
I just got some casting materials I ordered and I came here to look at the tutorial again but none of the pics are loading for me.

Anyone else having this issue?

It's like the first part of the thread is completely missing. There are pics inside quote boxes but the original message where the quote came from is gone.

Help please!

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #149 on: May 21, 2007, 08:18:11 pm »
Yep, the whole tutorial is gone, not just the pics. The whole first part of the thread is missing.


Quote from: saint
saint is all powerful.

Apparently he is.

Fozzy The Bear

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #150 on: May 21, 2007, 08:36:09 pm »
Yep, the whole tutorial is gone, not just the pics. The whole first part of the thread is missing.

YUP!!! It seems to have vanished!!! No idea where it's gone to.... I haven't edited it. 

It seems that the forum has thrown another wobbly fit and lost it from the database  :hissy: :hissy: :hissy:

Maybe somebody should report this to Saint. I don't have a copy of it either.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 08:38:05 pm by Fozzy The Bear »
Most bottles and jars contain at least twenty-five percent recycled Pacman.
And research indicates that Space Invaders are strongly attracted to people who have recently eaten meat pies.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #151 on: May 21, 2007, 09:39:40 pm »
Fozzy,

The forum reports your topic was edited on May 10th. Do you remember doing this? Perhaps you had an edit that went awry?

This is the first time anybody has reported a thread truncating such as that. The forum software database layout makes this scenario almost impossible to occur. If anything, the entire thread would have gone wonky. I could possibly pull this from backups, but drilling the backup down to a single thread is extremely intensive and time consuming. If you have other means to find the original, lets try that avenue first.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #152 on: May 22, 2007, 08:10:44 am »
Fozzy,

The forum reports your topic was edited on May 10th. Do you remember doing this? Perhaps you had an edit that went awry?

Yes it reports it was last edited on May 10th, 2006, 07:55:33 PM  not May 10th 2007.... I'm absolutely sure that I haven't edited it at all since 2006.

I honestly don't have a copy of the original. The only thing remaining from that first post appears to be the first few lines.

Thanks for looking at this.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
Most bottles and jars contain at least twenty-five percent recycled Pacman.
And research indicates that Space Invaders are strongly attracted to people who have recently eaten meat pies.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #153 on: May 22, 2007, 09:03:30 am »

Do you have your original pictures?  This would be a good time to move that to the Wiki if you do.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #154 on: May 22, 2007, 12:36:04 pm »

Yes it reports it was last edited on May 10th, 2006, 07:55:33 PM  not May 10th 2007.... I'm absolutely sure that I haven't edited it at all since 2006.

Yeah, I guess I should read better.  :o

Well anyway, the thread has been fixed.  The wayback machine pulls another one out. :notworthy:

I also took the liberty of attaching the images to the first post along with referencing the original images via IMG src tags to restore the original article. I would suggest as CT pointed out that you should really wiki-fi this topic. The Wiki is really the more appropriate place now for topics such as this.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #155 on: May 22, 2007, 03:52:28 pm »

Yes it reports it was last edited on May 10th, 2006, 07:55:33 PM  not May 10th 2007.... I'm absolutely sure that I haven't edited it at all since 2006.

Well anyway, the thread has been fixed.  The wayback machine pulls another one out. :notworthy:

sirwoogie - Thank you very much for fixing this! It is much appreciated.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #156 on: May 22, 2007, 07:08:41 pm »
I would suggest as CT pointed out that you should really wiki-fi this topic. The Wiki is really the more appropriate place now for topics such as this.


Thankyou for recovering it.... Much apreciated....

I agree completely. I'll take a look at the relevant section of the WIKI and submit some edits for inclusion in the next couple of weks.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
Most bottles and jars contain at least twenty-five percent recycled Pacman.
And research indicates that Space Invaders are strongly attracted to people who have recently eaten meat pies.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #157 on: August 21, 2007, 07:46:13 pm »
Wow, not sure how I missed this thread.  This is so awesome.  Gives me hope that someday I can make some real red handles for my Satan's Hollow joystick.

And yep, as mentioned, playing the light cycles w/out that restrictor is almost impossible.  The xenophobe joystick doesn't cut it.

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #158 on: August 22, 2007, 02:39:12 pm »
Wow, not sure how I missed this thread.  This is so awesome.  Gives me hope that someday I can make some real red handles for my Satan's Hollow joystick.

How about a Sark-themed Tron or Discs of Tron? ;D

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Re: TRON JOYSTICK HANDLES (Recasting) PART 1
« Reply #159 on: September 17, 2007, 08:18:19 am »
Any updates on this recently?

Fozzy - I was able to get the right urethane and make the restrictors for the Tron stick. I made a conversion doc here. I'm selling the restrictors if you know anyone that needs one.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=71229.0

Wow, not sure how I missed this thread.  This is so awesome.  Gives me hope that someday I can make some real red handles for my Satan's Hollow joystick.

And yep, as mentioned, playing the light cycles w/out that restrictor is almost impossible.  The xenophobe joystick doesn't cut it.

~telengard

~telengard - Check the link above if you want to change your Xeno stick into a Tron LIKE stick.

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