SlikStik Tornado Spinner News

[SlikStik Christian]

We want to congratulate Groovy Game Gear for bringing an alternative choice to the spinner enthusiast industry, at SlikStik we know that competition/alternative choices are good for the end user which is one of our commitments as an OEM manufacturer.

In the manufacturing process companies should try to make the highest quality product while keeping it cost effective as well as consumer friendly. We mention price because SlikStik products seem to get hammered for being expensive or overpriced. In addition, we have noticed that some of the claims regarding functionality of the Turbo compared to other spinner controls released in the online, arcade controls forum sales pitch are of no value, thus the need for some clarification.

In its main form, the Turbo has a (polymer = plastic)

[whammoed]

I am a slikstik customer and will continue to buy products from slikstik that I want of course.
I own a tornado spinner and have been satisfied with it.
I do not think it is overpriced at all.  Some people just don't understand how much custom parts cost to be machined especially in "limited" numbers.
The tornado plays tempest great.
Good job on the price break.
I LOVE the way it spins.  It does nothing for gameplay, its just cool!
BUT...
Lets not pretend for a second that a spinner can't benefit from a higher CPR (cycles per revolution).  It may not matter in a game like tempest but for a game like Arkanoid it surely matters.  There was a reason the arkanoid spinner was geared to provide a total CPR of  486.  The tornados 40-50 CPR (I know its around there) doesn't come close to this.  I still use it for Arkanoid of course, but I would give it a rating of "playable" at best.  When you turn up the sensitvity to get it close to having the same movement of the "vaus" per degree turn of the knob, the movement of the "vaus" becomes choppy along the screen.  You simply can't gain resolution, but you can decrease it.  In other words I believe there are 176 different positions for the vaus along the bottom of the screen in arkanoid.  I want to move the vaus along the bottom with very littly turn of the knob, say around 60-70 degrees.  On a 50 CPR encoder 66 degrees only gives me 9 teeth!  The arkanoid spinner would have 87!  So how am I supposed to get the same feel without the vaus hopping along ten times further than it should?<---rhetorical question

Anyway, I think both SS and GGG have great products and can't wait to see what's next.  I'm just not buying the idea that a 40-50 CPR (tooth) encoder is the perfect resolution.

[SlikStik Christian]

whammoed,

  Point taken and we agree 100% to be very honest we are very familiar with the special requirements of Arkanoid and its original CPR of 486, and the Tornado isn

[whammoed]

Thanks.
Yes, can't wait for some reviews.
And once again I actually can't believe how inexpensive the spinner options out there are.  I have priced custom machined parts for various projects in the past and know exactly how expensive it really is.  What are vendors making on these, like 5 bucks?!?!  Normal retail on things is generally a 100% markup or more.  I certainly doubt you guys are making these for $30-$35 each.  So I for one am appreciative for these products and understand the capital investment it took to get them going.
Randy hasn't mentioned what the CPR of his spinner is but I doubt it reaches the 486 mark.  Now that would be an expensive spinner!  Non geared at 486...Yikes!

[rackoon]

AWSOME DEAL! I will buy one next payday!

[mahuti]

Yay to lower prices. Thanks for that. Compatability with the optipac is cool too.  

And like you, we all look forward to the forthcoming extensive reviews of Groovy Game Gear's products. Can't wait.

[juggle50]

Christian,

I just bought a tornado a month ago and haven't installed it yet and am happy that you took the time to back up your product even with a new one on the market.

I really wanted to connect my spinner to the mini pac.  Can I send you back the spinner board and trade it in for the ultimarc compliable one?

Also, how come you don't send the screw with your spinner knobs?

thank you

[rdagger]

I have a red Tornado spinner on my cab.  The knob is very high quality although I was disappointed that the color is more pink than the red shown on the website.  In terms of play, I have the same comments -- great for Tempest, sucks for Arkanoid.  It's funny that my Happ 3" trackball works much better for Arkanoid than the Tornado.

Another advantage is the small footprint which was a must for my CP.

[SlikStik Christian]

Christian,

I just bought a tornado a month ago and haven't installed it yet and am happy that you took the time to back up your product even with a new one on the market.

I really wanted to connect my spinner to the mini pac.  Can I send you back the spinner board and trade it in for the ultimarc compliable one?

Also, how come you don't send the screw with your spinner knobs?

thank you

juggle50,

  Not a problem, remove the 2 screws and send back the board and cable to the following address;

SlikStik
Attn: Christian, TTL Board Swap.
357 Harrison St
Nutley, NJ 07110

I will send you out a new board with cable to connect it to your Opti-PAC

Also, all our spinner tops have set screws installed, were you missing them? If so just let me know what top you have and I will include the set screws as well.

[divemaster127]

I own the slikstik spinner its works & looks awesome
thanks
dm

[RandyT]

We want to congratulate Groovy Game Gear for bringing an alternative choice to the spinner enthusiast industry, at SlikStik we know that competition/alternative choices are good for the end user which is one of our commitments as an OEM manufacturer.

In the manufacturing process companies should try to make the highest quality product while keeping it cost effective as well as consumer friendly. We mention price because SlikStik products seem to get hammered for being expensive or overpriced. In addition, we have noticed that some of the claims regarding functionality of the Turbo compared to other spinner controls released in the online, arcade controls forum sales pitch are of no value, thus the need for some clarification.

Wow, GGG got congratulated in one paragraph, and then called a liar in the next...I'm all happy and hurt at the same time

I don't usually like to do this in a thread started by a competitor, but there doesn't seem to be any qualms about dragging our name around while alleging that I have somehow made false statements, so defending myself here seems to be the proper thing to do.

In its main form, the Turbo has a (polymer = plastic)

[Kremmit]

I third the notion that the # of teeth on the encoder wheel definately counts.  To suggest otherwise is either ignorance talking, or plain old bull.... and anybody that understands the Arkanoid problem isn't ignorant.

In my experience, the number of teeth on the wheel definately makes a difference in MAME.  Any game that requires the sensetivity to be set higher than 100 is suffering from it.  The more teeth you have on your encoder wheel, the less likely you are to have to set your sensetivity over 100.

I've played around with lots of different encoder wheels, with different tooth counts.  Just for reference, here are the ones I actually saved the numbers for:

DOT spinner (original) has 128 teeth.
The Oscar DOT has 72, same as Blasteroids, Tempest, Oscar Vortex, and the 720 joystick.
The Pole Position wheel has 24 teeth, with the gearing you get just shy of 4 revolutions of the encoder per turn of the wheel, for somewhere around 80 teeth actually passing through the optics per one turn of the steering wheel.

Arkanoid is the special one.  The knob attaches to shaft #1, which has a 72 tooth gear on it.  That gear turns a 16 tooth gear on shaft #2.  Shaft #2 also has a 72 tooth gear on it, which then turns a 16 tooth gear on shaft #3.  Shaft #3 also has the encoder wheel on it, which has 24 teeth.

So, shaft 2 spins 4.5 times for every turn of shaft 1.  Shaft 3 spins 4.5 turns for every turn of shaft 2.  4.5 squared is 20.25 turns of the encoder for every turn of the knob, which is 486 teeth per revolution of the spinner knob!!  (That's even more than was stated above, but I believe my numbers are correct, unless anybody sees any math errors.)

SlikStik still has better knobs, though.

[Lon]

Damn, wouldnt you know it. I just ordered a tornado yesterday ... arrrggghh


Lon

[pointdablame]

Well with the price drop, I'm really going to have to debate on which spinner to get now that my latest project is finally starting to show progress (I just jinxed that, didn't I?)  Hopefully someone has a side by side compare-o lined up (Kevin?)...

I know that I'm not the only one who sees potential for this thread to get messy, so I just want to say this:  Both Randy and Christian are great assets to this hobby.  They both make excellent products, and are both very proud of their work.

Don't let this debate threads scare any of you new guys away.  Both GGG and SS make awesome products and you won't go wrong with either IMO.

The only downside of all of this for me is Randy and Christian are BOTH guilty of making me choose between arcade parts or feeding myself at college.  For shame you two, for shame! 

[rugby1]

Wow,  I can't believe this post hasn't gone to PH yet.... Not cool in my book to basically call a competitor a liar in a public forum.  Not what these forums are here for and definately not something a professional business would do. 

I have ordered from SS and GGG and I can tell you that I will never do business with SS again.   Not even if SS drops the price of their products like they have with their spinners.   I should never have to call a company and ask them to ship my order 6 weeks after I have ordered it.  Don't let me inconvenience you SS (as you are obviously too busy slamming competitors instead of running a business)!  And If I would have seen these posts earlier, I would have never ordered from them to begin with....

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=17778.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=17806.0

*edit:  Yes Christian... what you posted way back when is coming back to haunt you....  I am making it my personal mission to give you bad press

[SlikStik Christian]

We want to congratulate Groovy Game Gear for bringing an alternative choice to the spinner enthusiast industry, at SlikStik we know that competition/alternative choices are good for the end user which is one of our commitments as an OEM manufacturer.

In the manufacturing process companies should try to make the highest quality product while keeping it cost effective as well as consumer friendly. We mention price because SlikStik products seem to get hammered for being expensive or overpriced. In addition, we have noticed that some of the claims regarding functionality of the Turbo compared to other spinner controls released in the online, arcade controls forum sales pitch are of no value, thus the need for some clarification.

Wow, GGG got congratulated in one paragraph, and then called a liar in the next...I'm all happy and hurt at the same time

I don't usually like to do this in a thread started by a competitor, but there doesn't seem to be any qualms about dragging our name around while alleging that I have somehow made false statements, so defending myself here seems to be the proper thing to do.

In its main form, the Turbo has a (polymer = plastic) “C” bracket design including dual ball bearings. Just as a coincidence, the SlikStik Tornado which was released 3 years ago by SlikStik™ arcade products has the same “C” bracket design and hosts dual ball bearings as well.

While we do not claim to have re-invented the wheel by coming up with an original spinner design such as the Tornado and at the same time welcome competition and the build a better mouse trap theory, the Turbo design is a borderline duplicate of the Tornado in more ways than one.

Let's just say that your claim is "far reaching" at best.  Mechanically,  A spinner is essentially what is known in mechanical engineering circles as a "dead axle".    Axles in the SS spinner configuration are found on everything from wheelbarrows to "little red wagons".

But it doesn't really matter because the "Turbo" does not employ this type of structural design.  The circuit board is very tightly screwed to the forward portion of the frame, and therefore acts as a structural member.  The frame is sturdy enough that it probably doesn't require the extra support, but it was made part of the design "just in case".    Therefore, the frame is not a "C" frame having 3 structural members, rather an "open box" design with 4 structural members.

The "dual bearing" method was actually inspired by the trackball roller design.  As you must be aware, GGG has been offering replacement high resolution encoder wheels for trackballs for quite some time now.

Some of the Turbo’s claims about “high resolution” are a bit of marketing bunk to make it seem that its better than any other spinner and if you care to read the technology behind that statement our rendition is below for anyone’s perusal.

<I think that's the part where I was called a liar.  Anyone else besides Whammoed think I'm not purveying "marketing bunk" when I state that high-resolution is important in a spinner design?>

About mouse/spinner resolution and operation:

If you observe the movement of a mouse cursor in Windows, you will find that the mouse moves in small increments as the teeth on the flywheel break the optic plane, sometimes known as "Mickeys". If the mouse movement is set to normal in the windows settings, then for each spoke on the wheel the mouse moves one Mickey.

If by "normal" you mean mouse speed = slow and Acceleration = Disabled, then yes.  But I don't think that would be the "normal" windows setting for most folks.

No change in the design of spinner can affect this unless someone was unknowingly producing a flywheel with teeth that were not of equal distances and have varying teeth sizes which would then cause choppy movement.

This is out in left field.  Not only wouldn't anyone ever do this, but I'd be surprised if it worked at all.  Choppy movement isn't a Windows™ cursor issue anyway.  If you use your spinner with a Windows game that expects a mouse, and you try to use a spinner with a low-res encoder, you will end up needing to increase the "mouse speed" and or acceleration.   But then you would be playing with interpolated (upscaled) control, which sacrifices accuracy and could induce "choppy movement" in the avatar, much like what has been explained in relation to Arkanoid™.

Mouse movement is fixed at one Mickey per spoke regardless of the distance of the spoke itself. There is no jerkiness because the Mickeys are designed to avoid this by a specific tooth count and even spacing between teeth. Let’s say we have 3 times as many teeth on the same diameter wheel, which would seem physically impossible because the teeth would be so thin they would not be practical, this would then mean the mouse would move more Mickeys per revolution of the spinner. This has not increased the resolution at all; it simply makes the mouse move further across the screen per full rotation.

That is the point.  More player movement as a result of real data (thus providing accuracy) for less turning of the knob.  Let me try to explain this to you:  If you have an encoder wheel with 48 spokes (which would provide 96 pulses) and 220 possible positions for the player graphic, that is intended to be controlled with 120 degrees of motion then you would need to divide the resolution of the encoder wheel by 3 (360 degrees divided by 120 =3).  This would give you only 32 pulses to represent the 220 positions.  Therefore, the on-screen graphic would have to jump 6.875 positions per pulse (not tooth) of the encoder wheel, which is a ratio of 6.875 to one.  If the sensitivity setting of the game does not offer a sensitivity "boost" of 687.5%, the game cannot be played as intended, even if you are willing to accept the terribly choppy movement.

If anyone does not understand this, please let me know.  I'm not sure I can present it any more simply, but I will try if necessary.

With that being said, if we adjust the mouse sensitivity down to compensate for the new speed, which is likely to be too fast to be useable and provide a benefit to you playing games, it slows down the mouse to where we were with our original spoked wheel. Have we increased the resolution by doing this? No. If you look closely you will see that the mouse movement is still one Mickey at a time and each Mickey is the same as before, but we actually need to move the mouse 2 or 3 (or more) spokes on the wheel to produce one degree of movement.

The mouse movement actually misses out spokes and might end up with a worse resolution by doing this because of an uneven process. Sometimes 2 spokes might be missed out and sometimes 3.

The physical movement between spokes is so small, this ends up being a "non-issue".  It's all about scale.  I'll exaggerate the example a bit to make the point.  If I were to put 3 dots on a piece of paper, 2 of them 3 inches apart and 2 of them 2.5 inch apart ( .833333 the distance of the first), and you viewed them from 2 feet away, the difference would be pretty obvious.  Now, if I were to put 3 more dots on the paper, with the first two being .06 inches apart and the other 2 being .05" inches apart (still .833333 times the distance) and you viewed them from the same distance as before, you could not tell the difference.  Likewise, you would not be able to tell if you had turned the knob an extra .010".

The only way the resolution could be actually increased would be to reduce the size of the Mickeys themselves but this is an entirely software-driven issue and nothing to do with the physical spinner. There is no point in doing this though; it will not benefit your game of Tempest in any way. In the case stated by GGG, their spinner is nearly 3 times more (what?) than any other spinner. Regardless, this can only be done via software programming, just as a reminder Mame itself already has an Analog adjustment built in which enables users the ability to adjust the mouse/spinner/trackball sensitivity settings to their liking thus no need for this feature to be on board of any spinner PCB.

<Sigh>  Here's a number for you to play with: 130 "spokes" which provides for 260 pulses per each revolution of the spinner.  There, I showed you mine, now it's your turn to "show me yours"   If it doesn't matter, then you will have no qualms about providing the number.

Forget about all that "software upscaling" stuff...none of it works well, which is precisely why hardware resolution is so important.

Ask yourself, have you or anyone for that matter ever complained that the resolution of their mouse is insufficient and disrupting game play? No of course not. This is simply a marketing scheme accusing other spinners of producing jerky or choppy movement.

Yeah, that's the ticket!   

No, someones "mouse" is going to have plenty of resolution.  A mouse is like a trackball in that the encoder resolution is multiplied by the difference between the circumference of the ball and the circumference of the encoder shaft.  Consider it a "friction gearing system".  A spinner, on the other hand, directly drives the encoder wheel and low-res equals low-res no matter which way you try to "spin" it
 

The Tornado is still one of the best spinning devices ever made and its design being so simple but ingenious that other manufactures keep using it as their own. In addition it works so well that it has earned enough notoriety that Happ Controls has now licensed production and marketing for the Tornado world wide.

And you have a problem with my marketing speak?

This newest attempt from our GGG to almost copy our spinner design and release it for sale at a lower price and then say “I would probably kick myself for offering them at the current price”, just validates that SlikStik charges a more then fair price for the Tornado, especially since it includes some awesome spinner top choices and all the necessary adaptors at no additional charge.

"Newest attempt" ??   "Almost copy" ??  Pardon me for saying so, but this is getting a little weird even for my tastes.   If I wanted to copy the SS design, I could have done it perfectly.  The fact that I didn't should speak volumes.

Good luck with your sale.  And next time you feel like accusing me of lying in a public forum, I suggest you get your facts straight first.  Could be considered wreckless to do otherwise.


Thank You,

RandyT


P.S.

I own the slikstik spinner its works & looks awesome
thanks
dm

Don't forget to disclose that you also sell them

Thank You.

[SlikStik Christian]

Wow,  I can't believe this post hasn't gone to PH yet.... Not cool in my book to basically call a competitor a liar in a public forum.  Not what these forums are here for and definately not something a professional business would do. 

I have ordered from SS and GGG and I can tell you that I will never do business with SS again.   Not even if SS drops the price of their products like they have with their spinners.   I should never have to call a company and ask them to ship my order 6 weeks after I have ordered it.  Don't let me inconvenience you SS (as you are obviously too busy slamming competitors instead of running a business)!  And If I would have seen these posts earlier, I would have never ordered from them to begin with....

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=17778.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=17806.0

*edit:  Yes Christian... what you posted way back when is coming back to haunt you....  I am making it my personal mission to give you bad press

Sorry about the delay, if you would have read the International Orders policy before making a purchase, things may have not got as hairy as they did. We did try and rectify your situation as quickly as possible though.

[SlikStik Christian]

Hey divemaster127, did he just say that you sell Tornado spinners?

[rugby1]

Sorry about the delay, if you would have read the International Orders policy before making a purchase, things may have not got as hairy as they did. We did try and rectify your situation as quickly as possible though.

Hmmm.... I gave all contact info... phone number, address, email addy....   and I did read your International order policy....  too bad it doesn't apply because military address' are the same as shipping to NY.   Now if I would have used my German address then you might have a point, but I never do that because of customs fee's.  Amazing that GGG, Ponyboy and even Happ got my orders to me in 7 to 10 days and it took you literally 2 friggin' months!

*edit : Oh and I did email you and got an auto response... twice!   never heard a word from you in response.... I can produce those emails if necessary.  Basic point is your customer service is horrible and I'm not the only person to have issues. 

[RandyT]

che cosa gira intorno a viene intorno, my keyboard commando friend.

Italian to English translation:

"What come 'round, goes around."

Nice.  I go through the trouble of explaining the technology and instead of a technical response or explanation as to how you are drawing your conclusions, I get threatened in a public forum.

Hey divemaster127, did he just say that you sell Tornado spinners?

Quote from divemaster127.

"I'm running a huge  HAPP sale, below is a list of most of the common happ items,I carry the ENTIRE HAPP LINE, so email me if you do not see it below for a price."

Sounds like he sells them to me.  Or does divemaster127 NOT carry the "ENTIRE HAPP LINE" of which your product is part?

I can only go by what he says.

RandyT

[rugby1]

che cosa gira intorno a viene intorno, my keyboard commando friend.

Italian to English translation:

"What come 'round, goes around."

Nice.  I go through the trouble of explaining the technology and instead of a technical response or explanation as to how you are drawing your conclusions, I get threatened in a public forum.

At least he edited that out... again, nice professional response from SS

[RandyT]

che cosa gira intorno a viene intorno, my keyboard commando friend.

Italian to English translation:

"What come 'round, goes around."

Nice.  I go through the trouble of explaining the technology and instead of a technical response or explanation as to how you are drawing your conclusions, I get threatened in a public forum.

At least he edited that out... again, nice professional response from SS

Doesn't matter, we have copies.

Thanks!

RandyT

[RetroACTIVE]

Competition is supposed to be a good thing, it drives innovation and choice.

Its always easier when there is no competition...

[markrvp]

* markrvp grabs some popcorn.

[rugby1]

Competition is supposed to be a good thing, it drives innovation and choice.

Its always easier when there is no competition...

I respectfully disagree... Supply and Demand drive innovation....  RandyT came up with several new ideas that no one has done (LED Wiz comes to mind)....    There was no supply but high demand for a product like that and it seems to be highly successful... now that isn't saying that someone can't "build a better mousetrap" and force RandyT to come up with something bigger and better.   Point is that RandyT has no competition in regards to the LED Wiz and that didn't affect innovation.     

[rugby1]

* markrvp grabs some popcorn.

Share with the rest of us    

A soda would be nice too

[RetroACTIVE]

Competition is supposed to be a good thing, it drives innovation and choice.

Its always easier when there is no competition...

I respectfully disagree... Supply and Demand drive innovation....  RandyT came up with several new ideas that no one has done (LED Wiz comes to mind)....    There was no supply but high demand for a product like that and it seems to be highly successful... now that isn't saying that someone can't "build a better mousetrap" and force RandyT to come up with something bigger and better.   Point is that RandyT has no competition in regards to the LED Wiz and that didn't affect innovation.    

Well, I think Randy T has an excellent product line... I believe he has created an incredible affordable scalable solution for anyone wanting to build an arcade controller.

I also believe that LedWiz is a product that fit an un-met need int the market. 

Well, I don't believe that supply and demand are the only things that drive innovation.  My point is that when a competitor enters the market, it should force the market holders to re-think their position and "respectfully" react.

[SlikStik Christian]

No one had questioned the RandyT product line and as a matter of fact I have made several past statements which were all positive regarding his products.

It

[rugby1]

OMG... what a tewl

"SlikStik ....Badddd......SlikStik.... Badddd"


Now Randy, Don't be sending us subliminal messages or brainwashing us 

[Kremmit]

Contribution to this hobby is great in my opinion and the more the merrier, but for the love of God man, just promote your products without attacking others and I

[Kremmit]

All personal issues aside, here's the product comparison, as I see it:

GGG spinner

• shorter spin time  (presumed)
• uglier knob (opinon)
• only one knob available
• lower everyday price
• higher resolution encoder wheel
• spinner can show in Windows as the  X, Y or Z mouse axis
• device will also connect a trackball, or two additional spinners, steering wheels, etc.
• axis selection made at order- can be changed by user with a soldering iron

SS spinner

• longer spin time  (presumed)
• more attractive knob (opinon)
• multiple knob options available
• higher everyday price (but currently on sale)
• lower resolution encoder wheel
• spinner can show in Windows as the  X or Y mouse axes only, not Z-axis
• device will not connect a trackball, or any additional spinners, steering wheels, etc.
• axis selection made any time- can be changed by user by simply moving a jumper

[divemaster127]

Yes i sell the happ line but as far as the slikstik spinner is concerned, its the same price for everybody from happ , I pay the same price for the slikstik as everyone else does, i was just making a note i have a slikstik on my cab & its a very good product
thanks
dm

[RandyT]

No one had questioned the RandyT product line and as a matter of fact I have made several past statements which were all positive regarding his products.

It

[RandyT]

Yes i sell the happ line but as far as the slikstik spinner is concerned, its the same price for everybody from happ , I pay the same price for the slikstik as everyone else does, i was just making a note i have a slikstik on my cab & its a very good product
thanks
dm

Thank you for confirming that you do indeed offer the product.

RandyT

[JackTucky]

Subliminal messaging makes me want a sandwiich.  And a spinner.  but I don't know which one.

jacktucky

[Necro]

I think you guys should each send me one.  I'll test them both out and that can be the definitive answer.

I'd even give you a quote...like the movie poster/ad ones.

"This spinner is teh r0xx0rz!!!" - Necro

(Oh, and BTW, your both acting like ---goshdarn--- children.  Quit it.  There's some decent info now in this thread about both products so just relax.  SS maybe had a reason to post originally, and took it too far instead of just a professional response.  RT did a great response and now is getting pissed.  Just let it go, please.  CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!...I still think sending me one of each is the best way though.)

Also: recent meeting between RandyT and SS: http://www.viralchart.com/bloodonthecarpet/

hehe

[krick]

Just for the record, I have two Tornado spinners in my cabinet and I love them.
Built like tanks, they are.

I'm also the guy with the (apparently no longer needed) optic board hack page...
http://mame.3feetunder.com/tornadomod/

But now that you've both piqued my interest, where can I find more info about these GGG Spinners that everyone keeps going on about?

I want to see what all the hubub is about.

[GoPodular.com]

That is the point.  More player movement as a result of real data (thus providing accuracy) for less turning of the knob.  Let me try to explain this to you:  If you have an encoder wheel with 48 spokes (which would provide 96 pulses) and 220 possible positions for the player graphic, that is intended to be controlled with 120 degrees of motion then you would need to divide the resolution of the encoder wheel by 3 (360 degrees divided by 120 =3).  This would give you only 32 pulses to represent the 220 positions.  Therefore, the on-screen graphic would have to jump 6.875 positions per pulse (not tooth) of the encoder wheel, which is a ratio of 6.875 to one.  If the sensitivity setting of the game does not offer a sensitivity "boost" of 687.5%, the game cannot be played as intended, even if you are willing to accept the terribly choppy movement.

If anyone does not understand this, please let me know.  I'm not sure I can present it any more simply, but I will try if necessary.

This graphic might help.  Numbers are a little off, but that's what images I have laying around.  You can upsample a lower spoke-count encoder by telling the software to move multiple pixels each spoke ingame, or you can downsample a higher spoke-count encoder by telling the software to move a single pixel every "X" spokes.  One way might give you jumps, the other way might give you a very small dead-zone or possibly stutters if the hardware misses spoke counts with really fast spinning.  Stuttering can be eliminated by increasing the sampling rate.

Of course "the best spinner" would be the exact count for the original game, or some integer multiple of.  That would retain the exact sweep of the original control.  It's possible to figure out just how close each of these are to the originals and the ideal settings in MAME, but it's Saturday night and the frost has melted from my mug.

[Warborg]

No one had questioned the RandyT product line and as a matter of fact I have made several past statements which were all positive regarding his products.

It

[Xam]

Subliminal messaging makes me want a sandwiich.  And a spinner.  but I don't know which one.

jacktucky

You can't go wrong with a grilled cheese! Ham and cheese on wheat is pretty good too. A nice PB and J with a tall glass of milk is great...oh wait...you mean you cannot decide which spinner...

Following this thread from beginning to end my decision has been made.
I will just suffice it to say that I have turned from one product to the other as this thread has a bit of a cat fight feel to itand I wish not to add to it. Kinda reminds you of the peeing contest in elementry school don't it...and who doesn't like watching that?

Xam

[skippy]

Subliminal messaging makes me want a sandwiich.  And a spinner.  but I don't know which one.

jacktucky

You can't go wrong with a grilled cheese! Ham and cheese on wheat is pretty good too. A nice PB and J with a tall glass of milk is great...oh wait...you mean you cannot decide which spinner...

Following this thread from beginning to end my decision has been made.
I will just suffice it to say that I have turned from one product to the other as this thread has a bit of a cat fight feel to itand I wish not to add to it. Kinda reminds you of the peeing contest in elementry school don't it...and who doesn't like watching that?

Xam

Don't forget grilled cheese and bacon. yummers.  Even better is grilled cheese ham and bacon.  Really SS Christen your coming off like a complete knob here.  Of course Randy is going to defend his product line when somebody starts accusing him of being a copycat and then saying his design sucks.  C'mon we are all adults here let the products compete in the marketplace.  Obviously there is enough of a marketplace for two different products, otherwise we wouldn't all be bummed out about Kelsey coming down with Real Life Syndrome and not being able to put out Oscar products.

[dhansen]

Oscar spinners were more true to form as far as I'm concerned.  When I play Tempest with an Oscar spinner it feels like the original game.  C'mon back Oscar...we miss you!

[Lon]

It sounds as if SlikStik may lose some customers over this, so as much as I would like to cancel my pending order for a Tornado and reorder for the sale price and save $20. I am not going to


Lon

[bionicbadger]

The first one to come out with a push/pull spinner wins.
GO!

[patrickl]

I've had some scraps with Randy over his bashing of Ultimarc products in the past (BTW I'm happy to see the debate is settled since he now uses USB in abundance too lol), but in this case I think he's is completely right. I have a Tornado, but I have troubles with the low res decoder wheel in several games. I was wondering about getting another decoder wheel for my Tornado, but I guess a new (extra) spinner is more likely (with a LEDwiz  ).

I do understand Christian felt needlessly attacked/ridiculed by the snide remark about "spinning freely" being a design feature. The whole introduction could have done without things like that. I guess I do things like that too, but I don't represent (nor attack) a company (resp competitor) here.

[dirt]

i also will never use ss again. i thought his failure to send me my cp in a timely manner was a fluke until i heard th eother stories. when i finnaly got it i opened it up and it was all wrong. wrong layout,wrong joysticks. and it took forever to get the right joys out of him. basicly i just got bad serice all the way around. i build about 8 machines a year and he could have had one of his cp's on all of my machines but i need to get a cp faster than 3 months. thats right 3 months from time of payment till the time of getting the right joys from him. from aug. 22 until nov. 21

[nostrebor]

Contribution to this hobby is great in my opinion and the more the merrier, but for the love of God man, just promote your products without attacking others and I

[markrvp]

* markrvp passes Nostrebor some popcorn.

* markrvp gets up to use the bathroom.

* markrvp thinks the baby Jesus is crying right now.

[rwhip41]

You know, I have never ordered from SS and serveral times from Randy...  I had nothing against SS other then I thought their shipping a little high on small items, but that's it.  NOW...  I will never deal with SS.

Funny...

I was thinking the same thing from the other side of the coin. Never ordered from Randy. Probably never will now.

Does this mean it's a draw?

[Brax]

I'm afraid both these sellers are wound a little too tight for my liking. It really has nothing to do with their products. I won't deal with either of them based on personality alone.

With companies like Ultimarc and Oscar Controls; I'm afraid they pale in comparison. I'd actually prefer to hold my breath until Kelsey comes back than reward poor attitudes and bickering with my hard earned money.

Welcome to free enterprise boys.

[specfire]

Ok, this is in regards to the resolution issue; does tooth count matter?

Kremmit, you indicated the following tooth counts:

DOT spinner (original) has 128 teeth.
The Oscar DOT has 72, same as Blasteroids, Tempest, Oscar Vortex, and the 720 joystick.
The Pole Position ~ approx 80 teeth per one turn of the steering wheel.
Arkanoid has 24 teeth but 486 per single revolution of the knob.

According to Randy, resolution matters, so much so that you can never have too much only too little because you can always down sample your resolution by setting the sensitivity in MAME to some value below 100%.

Well...I own an Arkanoid spinner.  If you can always down sample, why doesn't everyone use a  geared spinner instead of a direct drive spinner?

For example, I could use my arkanoid spinner and then just set the sensitivity down as follows:

26.34% for DOT (128 teeth/486 teeth)
14.81% for Tempest et al. (72/486)
16.67% for Pole Position (81/486)

Comments??

[MYX]

* markrvp passes Nostrebor some popcorn.

* markrvp gets up to use the bathroom.

* markrvp thinks the baby Jesus is crying right now.

Um dude, my name's not skip. Pass the corn over here. Jesus may be crying, but it has nothing to do with spinners. That is Sinners. As to the bathroom, please wash your hands when your done. 

[markrvp]

* markrvp passes MYX some popcorn, then goes to get another softdrink.

[brandon]

For example, I could use my arkanoid spinner and then just set the sensitivity down as follows:

26.34% for DOT (128 teeth/486 teeth)
14.81% for Tempest et al. (72/486)
16.67% for Pole Position (81/486)

Comments??

(off topic...)

ooh.. this is the kind of info I like to see.. Somebody should make a utility that lets you count the "ticks" recieved from your spinner in one revolution then you could set the sensitivity in Mame to be exactly right for each game.. or better yet.. have it config Mame for you..  or you could have this intergrated into Mame.. a global spinner calibration that automatically adjusts the sensitivity for all spinner games so that each game responses correctly to each degree of movement..

[Kremmit]

Ok, this is in regards to the resolution issue; does tooth count matter?

Kremmit, you indicated the following tooth counts:

DOT spinner (original) has 128 teeth.
The Oscar DOT has 72, same as Blasteroids, Tempest, Oscar Vortex, and the 720 joystick.
The Pole Position ~ approx 80 teeth per one turn of the steering wheel.
Arkanoid has 24 teeth but 486 per single revolution of the knob.

According to Randy, resolution matters, so much so that you can never have too much only too little because you can always down sample your resolution by setting the sensitivity in MAME to some value below 100%.

Well...I own an Arkanoid spinner.  If you can always down sample, why doesn't everyone use a  geared spinner instead of a direct drive spinner?

For example, I could use my arkanoid spinner and then just set the sensitivity down as follows:

26.34% for DOT (128 teeth/486 teeth)
14.81% for Tempest et al. (72/486)
16.67% for Pole Position (81/486)

Comments??

Hey, real discussion! 

First reason:  If you've got an Arkanoid spinner, and have spent any time with a regular spinner, then you already know the answer.  They feel totally different.  The Arkanoid spinner feels "gritty" due to the gears, as opposed to the silky-smooth feel of a regular spinner (in good condition).  Also, the Arkanoid spinner has no "weight" to it.  While super-long spin times may or may not be of value in gameplay, some spin time certainly is, and the Arkanoid spinner pretty much stops turning the instant you take your hand off of it, no matter how hard you whirl it.

Second reason:  Availabillity.  Arkanoid spinners are in short supply, and the Happ/Wico replacement ones cost big $$ and the knob on them looks ugly as sin.  Those are the only geared-spinner options I am aware of.

Third reason:  Downsampling is much better than upsampling, but it's still not perfect.  Unless your downsample ratio is an exact integer (1:2, 1:3, 1:4...), some rounding must take place, resulting in some uneven-ness.  Probably not a big issue, but..

That said, your numbers should give you roughly the same amount of on-screen movement per rotation of the spinner knob that you would have gotten with the original controller. 

Of course, there's still the question of whether or not MAME is providing the correct amount of movement per rotation in the first place.  The only way to verify that is to test with a real arcade PCB and the original controller.  There was a thread around here a few years back where folks did that for some games, you might be able to dig it up with some searching.

[Xam]

You know, I have never ordered from SS and serveral times from Randy...  I had nothing against SS other then I thought their shipping a little high on small items, but that's it.  NOW...  I will never deal with SS.

Funny...

I was thinking the same thing from the other side of the coin. Never ordered from Randy. Probably never will now.

Does this mean it's a draw?

It means this type of discussion can cost you customers...that's all.
Personally I was on the fence of which to buy. My mind is made up as to which one now based on the discussion. Not that either party was particularly eloquent...then again...nor am I. The one whose spinner I am buying will know because I will PM the individual regarding my purchasefor technical assistance.

But yes...you are correct...on customers lost it is probably a draw. In a niche market such as this, I would do everything I could to hold onto customers.

Xam

[Warborg]

You know, I have never ordered from SS and serveral times from Randy...  I had nothing against SS other then I thought their shipping a little high on small items, but that's it.  NOW...  I will never deal with SS.

Funny...

I was thinking the same thing from the other side of the coin. Never ordered from Randy. Probably never will now.

Does this mean it's a draw?

It means this type of discussion can cost you customers...that's all.
Personally I was on the fence of which to buy. My mind is made up as to which one now based on the discussion. Not that either party was particularly eloquent...then again...nor am I. The one whose spinner I am buying will know because I will PM the individual regarding my purchasefor technical assistance.

But yes...you are correct...on customers lost it is probably a draw. In a niche market such as this, I would do everything I could to hold onto customers.

Xam

Agreed...

Although, in response to rwhip...  I guess the biggest tell for me was that Christian Slikstik fired the opening volley on this, that was what really put me off.  If Randy were the one to have done that, I would question future orders from him as well.  I have no issue with people preaching the virtues of their products over the competition, but I don't think much of it when they preach theirs while running down others...  But that's just me, and it seems like both sides have lost out due to this thread.  I can only speak from experience, and all of my dealings with Randy have been A+, while I haven't been impressed with a lot of communication from and about SS on here, and one communication I had with ChristianSS about a possible order that I kinda came away sour from.  But...  To each their own, eh?

[Rip]

The first one to come out with a push/pull spinner wins.
GO!

...and design and sell a frontline/tin star/wild western 8-way dial

[Xiaou2]

warbog,

 actually, Randy DID start the war here... as he made a comment in his product that was directly stated to put  SS's  spinner into question.

 Basically Copying the design,  would have rattled my cage too.

 So far, anyone thats decided to try fill a gap in a product line...  invests time, money,  and energy into it... and after its released,   Randy decides to come in and wipe them out... with nearly the same design.   

 Randys hardware skills are great though... so most cant compete with him, in that feild at all.

 Both  Christian, and Randy act as children.  Its been seen in both their postings throughout the history of this site. 

 All is fair in competition..   but to rub it in others faces.. well,  thats pretty sad IMOP.

 
 

[farmecologist]

I'm not naming names, but there certainly have been many 'large ego' flare ups here in the past.  Relax, guys...remember this is just a hobby ( for MOST of us, anyway )...

Actually, it kind of bugs me that all of these 'new product' posts/discussions are on the main board.  Shouldn't they be in the Buy/Sell/Trade board?

[pointdablame]

Actually, it kind of bugs me that all of these 'new product' posts/discussions are on the main board.  Shouldn't they be in the Buy/Sell/Trade board?

why would they be?  They aren't buying, selling, or trading anything.  They are announcing (and arguing) about products.

[RandyT]

actually, Randy DID start the war here... as he made a comment in his product that was directly stated to put  SS's  spinner into question.

Facts are facts.  The information I have conveyed on the topic thus far comes from 6 months if intensive research on spinners and the games they are used with.  If technical fact places anothers product into question, then so be it.  Tell me, if you produced something that was designed to not have a shortfall known to exist with competing/existing  products, how might you extol this virtue?  Are you meaning to tell me that merely talking about technical advantage or misplaced notions in a marketplace is tantamount to directly attacking a competitor?

Your anti-RandyT bias is showing again, Steve.

Basically Copying the design,  would have rattled my cage too.

Would somebody who owns both please take a picture of these two units side by side and put this to bed.  I don't own, nor have I ever seen the competing spinner product in the flesh , or I would do so myself.  But based on the photo, they are so different in design, both functional and otherwise,  that this assertion is beyond ludicrous.  It also improperly credits my hard work to another individual who is undeserving of that credit.

So far, anyone thats decided to try fill a gap in a product line...  invests time, money,   and energy into it... and after its released,   Randy decides to come in and wipe them out... with nearly the same design.   

Please provide an example of this and the people I have "wiped out" with my "mad skillz"    It's not nice to make assertions like this without providing an example.  And since you said "so far", there must have been more than one example by now.

Also, if you would be so kind, please start a new "RandyT bashing thread" on the board somewhere so I can defend myself without having to do it in this one.

Thanks,
RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Would somebody who owns both please take a picture of these two units side by side and put this to bed.  I don't own, nor have I ever seen the competing spinner product in the flesh , or I would do so myself.  But based on the photo, they are so different in design, both functional and otherwise,  that this assertion is beyond ludicrous.  It also improperly credits my hard work to another individual who is undeserving of that credit.

Here's some photos from SlikStik's website and the Turbo-Twist thread.  There are some definite similarities - footprint, dual bearing design, overall bracket shape, flywheel style, but also some significant differences.  I don't think calling it a copy or a rip-off is fair, but others can form their own opinions:

[vader]

Competition is great for all of us end users.  This thread has really soured my opinions of both companies.  I admit I was going to make a purchase from SS based solely on the fact that there was nothing else available in the marketplace.  Now that GGG released something viable I was inclined to take a hard look at the pro/ cons of each.  I have no problem with either vendor advertising the benefits of their products vs. others in the industry, but to go about it
in childish and attacking each other either personally or corparately is uncalled for.  You both
have great products and should be proud of that and just let the end users make their own educated decisions.  I personally challenge both of you do not respond anymore to this thread and just let it die.  The numbers of products either of you sell speak for themselves.

Best Wishes

Tim

[SlikStik Christian]

Facts are facts.  The information I have conveyed on the topic thus far comes from 6 months if intensive research on spinners and the games they are used with.  If technical fact places another

[RandyT]

Your history on having disputes with competitors is rather extensive, no? Disputing the best arcade product review site on the web, Retroblast, for somehow not giving your other (dare I say knock off) keyboard encoder an excellent review.

I'm going to permanently leave this thread with one final comment.  Nobody likes being outdone or proven wrong.  Attacks from the party with "mud on their face" are inevitable and the defense of those attacks is viewed as a "dispute" from those who do not have the technical expertise to view it otherwise.

Like my 'ol granny used to say: "It takes two to tango"

Good night.

RandyT

[johno]

I have used both slikstik products & andy's, after reading reviews at retroblast, plus randyt's fit throwing because he did not like his review, geez what a baby.
johno

[SlikStik Christian]

Your history on having disputes with competitors is rather extensive, no? Disputing the best arcade product review site on the web, Retroblast, for somehow not giving your other (dare I say knock off) keyboard encoder an excellent review.

I'm going to permanently leave this thread with one final comment.  Nobody likes being outdone or proven wrong.  Attacks from the party with "mud on their face" are inevitable and the defense of those attacks is viewed as a "dispute" from those who do not have the technical expertise to view it otherwise.

Like my 'ol granny used to say: "It takes two to tango"

Good night.

RandyT

  The only person you have outdone is yourself,

[Warborg]

Facts are facts.  The information I have conveyed on the topic thus far comes from 6 months if intensive research on spinners and the games they are used with.  If technical fact places another

[Zakk]

I have used both slikstik products & andy's, after reading reviews at retroblast, plus randyt's fit throwing because he did not like his review, geez what a baby.
johno

Well based on your impressive reputation and long-time dedication to the hobby, I have no choice but to do as you say!

Oh, no wait, I was thinking of someone who didn't just make up a moniker and join yesterday. 

[Warborg]

I have used both slikstik products & andy's, after reading reviews at retroblast, plus randyt's fit throwing because he did not like his review, geez what a baby.
johno

Well based on your impressive reputation and long-time dedication to the hobby, I have no choice but to do as you say!

Oh, no wait, I was thinking of someone who didn't just make up a moniker and join yesterday. 

  Busted...

[CheffoJeffo]

To quote Dr. McCoy:  "I'd pay real money if he'd shut up."

Best ... use ... of ... that ... line ... EVAR!!

 

[SlikStik Christian]

I have used both slikstik products & andy's, after reading reviews at retroblast, plus randyt's fit throwing because he did not like his review, geez what a baby.
johno

Johno,

  Since I have no clue who you are at the moment but I do appreciate the positive support, can you please clarify your reason for posting a reply on this topic (It

[Tiger-Heli]

By the “Busted” comment above there seems to be some non-believers here as to your affiliation to us.

Affiliation to "us"  with "us" being SlikStik or BYOAC 

Guy has one post on the board and uses it to post in this thread that he likes your and Andy's products based on RetroBlast reviews and calls RandyT a baby - doesn't lend a lot of credibility . . .

No offense - Johno

[screaming]

Without taking sides here and personality differences aside, I'd like to state a fact and an independant opinion.

I haven't seen one post by Christian backing up his product with anything other than an attack.  How about stating some facts? Or how about just ackownleding that your product is two years old and may need an upgrade to compete with current products on the marketplace?  You know it happens.  Competition, that is.

RandyT has slung poo back, but at least his posts are laced with technical mumbo jumbo that makes me feel more confident about his product.

[pointdablame]

I know that I'm not the only one who sees potential for this thread to get messy

I'm a damn genius.

[screaming]

I'm a damn genious.

  ...Or a psychic. But I heard that all psychics are gypsies and that would mean you might know some Pikeys and everyone knows Pikeys are well known for their skills of negotiation and business. No wonder.   

[thebrownshow]

Anyone else reminded of these?
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/01/25
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/02/10

[Patent Doc]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/01/25
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/02/10

Those were awesome....I love the second one.

Seriously though both companies have a history of great products and at times have been acused of being confrontational.  Both companies have people that didn't like the service they got.  No point in trying to dig yourself in a hole trying to show how deep the other is or has been.  It's just not worth it.

As for me, I'll use products from either company since I've never had a problem with either vendor taking time to answer questions and provide what I would consider good cutomer service.

Patent Doc

[saint]

tick tick tick tick tick . . . .

(this thread is in danger of journeying to post hell...)

[MikeDeuce]

Ouch, if only I had waited a couple weeks to order my Tornado (I ordered on the 15th) and I just received UPS ship notification today :\ )

Any chance my order shipping today will be of the new batch with the new board and spinner set screws, etc?

[Fozzy The Bear]

My My My....   Christian AKA Slick Stick.... You seem to feel awfully threatened by Randy T's product.

In fact so much so that you make a huge price reduction in yours......  Users of your product should be asking themselves a couple of things here:

1) If you can reduce the price of your spinner now, why couldn't you have done it before. Some of the pepole who already bought from you, are probably feeling quite ripped off at the moment.

2) Do they really want to buy from a company that insults its competitors in a public forum the way that you have here.

Randy T on the other hand quite rightly defends himself with accurate technical comment. What do you come back with.... more insults and ignoring his technical points.

Sorry matey! but you've done yourself no favours here by insulting your competitors.  I know where my money will go, and it's not in your direction.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[miles2912]

tick tick tick tick tick . . . .

(this thread is in danger of journeying to post hell...)

I have a feeling they are both going to regret posing this here.  It is VERY evident that there is not that big of a market for spinners so loosing half your target demographics can hurt the pocketbook. 

Please flush the thread and let the products speak for themselves ... the designers are having a rough time doing it for themself.

Don

[Fat_Trucker]

In terms of design is it not likely that all spinners are going to share common characteristics so mud slinging back and forth seems a pointless exercise.

Its perfectly rational for competitors to point out advantages between competing products.

The overall basis for the purchase of a 'mame' spinner is going to be all round compatibility unless you are buying it for a particular game. The only apparent way to have a perfect emulated experience would be to have several spinners of different resolutions for different types of games.

Mainly people's choice should come down to nothing more but value and function. Semantics and personalities really ought to be taken out of the equation. Its completely irrelevant where my money is concerned. No disrespect to SS or GGG but I don't care what kind of people you are or who has the moral high ground at any particular moment, I would buy the product that offers the best quality balanced by a competetive price.

I think its all getting a little bit personal and off topic. The floor should be given over to a straight unbiased comparison between the two products to help BYOAC users make a balanced choice about which way to go.

As it seems there are few people who have actually used both products its strange for so many people to have an opinion. In my experience Spinners along with other controls are something you really need to use, play games with and get a feel for before you can make any judgement regardless of how many whistles, bells or teeth it may have.

Perhaps people should take a step back and just let the orders do the talking.

I for one will be far more interested in posts from people who are using the spinners than in squabbling about whose got the biggest........er........equipment so to speak.

[SlikStik Christian]

My My My....   Christian AKA Slick Stick.... You seem to feel awfully threatened by Randy T's product.

In fact so much so that you make a huge price reduction in yours......  Users of your product should be asking themselves a couple of things here:

1) If you can reduce the price of your spinner now, why couldn't you have done it before. Some of the pepole who already bought from you, are probably feeling quite ripped off at the moment.

2) Do they really want to buy from a company that insults its competitors in a public forum the way that you have here.

Randy T on the other hand quite rightly defends himself with accurate technical comment. What do you come back with.... more insults and ignoring his technical points.

Sorry matey! but you've done yourself no favours here by insulting your competitors.  I know where my money will go, and it's not in your direction.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here. You are saying because I have offered a sale on the Tornado spinner that previous customers would feel ripped off? Product sales happen everyday in many retail establishments all across the world and their sole purpose IS to bring in more customers or compete with a competitor

[markrvp]

I hate technical mumbo jumbo.  If a joystick's description has something more than "red" or "blue" I get all confused.  What's up with that high-tech 8-way, 4-way stuff?

[rbarr110]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

Damn, pretty stupid statement.  The quantity of people that have replied to this thread is by far a small quantity of the people here.  Nice blanket statement insulting almost everyone on the board, heh, "abundance".

[dmsuchy]

Reading this thread was entertaining, man people can get worked up! I have not bought products from either vender but plan to in the future. My one opinion is that GGG spinner is not even close to a copy of the tornado, if your going to compare the "C" bracket, than you might as well tell Radio Flyer they stole your idea cause they use a "C" bracket to hold thier front wheels on. Come to think of it they also use dual bearings. Damn you guys stole technology from a kids wagon! The only thing that could be copied would maybe be software or something along that line. I do like Slickstik's knobs more, man that sounded a little werid, I wonder if they would work on GGG spiner? Maybe you should work together for even a better spinner for us byoacs.  

[TheCaptain]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

Damn, pretty stupid statement.  The quantity of people that have replied to this thread is by far a small quantity of the people here.  Nice blanket statement insulting almost everyone on the board, heh, "abundance".

Hang him!

I guess.

[screaming]

holy crap.  what is wrong with you people?!?! 

[clanggedin]

In all reality the techinical mumbo jumbo means diddly squat to arcade builders. What matters is how the product performs in the applications it was designed for.

I am sure someone will be reviewing the GGG spinner and how it compares to a Tornado. I offer myself as a review if RandyT is willing to send me a review model. I already have a Tornado to compare it with so Criatian can send me some light up ball top handles for my 360s  . I will work with James Mcgoven at Retroblast to have the reivew posted.

SlikStik offers some of the best quality products on the market. If that wasn't the case then they wouldn't be constantly coming out with additional products and selling the tons of the products currently offer. Groovy Game Gear is newer to the market but has quickly become a standard name in home arcade construction.

Since Oscar doesn't make spinners anymore there hasn't been any real competition for SlikStik in the spinner category.Spinner technology will become better because of it.

Now... Lets all just get along and play some games.

[TheCaptain]

I could totally test out some review units too, you know. For science.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

Yes, yours is very clear.

If you call the things I stated to him insulting, and not his to me, you are simply bias.

Pot calling the kettle black, me thinks...... You started it by insulting Randy T.  who is well liked and respected here for the astounding amount he's done for other people and for the generous amount of help and assistance he gives.

Quite apart from the fact that the technical points he made were 100% accurate whether you like it or not.

All we see from you is your insults to your competitors.... and you now insult all of the members of this forum in response to me!  You really are unbelievable.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

There you go again..... That's for us to deside NOT YOU!..... and to be blunt the majority of people here don't seem to agree with you on that point. I as an arcade industry professional, certainly don't agree with you. His technical points were very valid ones.

You started your first post by mud slinging.... Don't be so damned surprised when it turns round and bites you on the bum.

Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[SirPoonga]

All we see from you is your insults to your competitors.... and you now insult all of the members of this forum in response to me!  You really are unbelievable.

You know Randy has done the same thing.  Remember the early keywiz vs ipac threads...  Brand loyalty does interesting things to people

As mentioned, what really needs to be done is have some people compare the two with default settings (in windows and mame).

And no, you can't say Randy ripped off SlikStik's design.  If you can make that argument I can make the argument both ripped off oscarcontrol's design.  Spinners are going to have a knob, shaft, bearing, encoder, flywheel, ertc, so there are going to be simularities.  If you took the flywheel off of slikstik and oscarcontrols they would look amazingly simular.  If you too the encoder disc off of slikstik and randy's they would look amazingly simular.

It's like designing a dirt bike.  They all look the same from a distance, but have their own uniqueness when you analyze them.  The all have two wheels, gas tank, engine, mud guards, knobby tires, etc...

If you were to make a new spinner could you make it so one would say you aren't copying slikstik or oscarcontrol's appearance?  Well, I suppose you could.  You could encase hte whole thing and only have some wires coming out of it.  But mechanically they all work on the same principles.

This argument on if the technology is sound reminds me of the arguments between  Visual Basic 6.0 and Visual Basic .NET.  There are people who swear by VB 6.0 yet and don't like the new technology.  However, each does have it's pros and con over the others.

I see this with these two products.  I can see how having a spinner more like an original arcade spinner would be good.  I can also see how a spinner with a lot of teeth would be good (arkanoid), that's why oscarcontrols designed that large disc.

Doesn't the number of teeth affect how the game feels compared to the original?  Let's say the original tempest cabinet if you turned the knob 1 complete rotation that the ship went half way around the first level.  If your spinner had more teeth, assuming 1:1 sensitivity settings in mame, wouldn't the ship go more than half way around the level.  So it would have a different feel to it?
Yes, you can change sensitivity in mame.  My question is what would be the perfect spinner so that most games wouldn't need adjusting?  As it would be annoying to go through the majority of the spinner games to adjust it if you don't have to.
Of course, one would have to have access to the original game to see how close it is.

[Orclord]

Well to add my tuppence...

I don't think this thread has done anyone any favours...

Was a longer post....

But thought better of it

I'm not adding fuel...........

Just to say

Two suppliers should not be doing this in public

It will only damage both..........

[Warborg]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

Ah hahhaha...  Way to go, buddy...  Way to go... 

You basically insult the population of this forum by calling us ignorant, and then imply how we'll mindlessly be impressed by a shiny bauble.

I thought at one time (prior to your initial attack) I MIGHT order one of your knobs, even with the inflated shipping costs, but now I think I'd just rather impale a bagel on the spinner shaft and see how that works...

[patrickl]

I think what people (for instance Warborg and Fozzy The Bear) seem to forget is that this thread is a reply to the advertisement thread of the Turbo. Randy says some things in there that can be taken as an insult to SlikStik.

I guess sometimes both Randy and Christian forget that they are seen as a company. Companies are not supposed to duke it out like this. They are supposed to be well behaved and sensible. The point is, if you ever need support from people who blow up at the first hint of an argument then you better stay clear of them.

I guess it's hard to sit idly by when people make false accusations, but obviously it's better to not respond at all. Starting an inevitable flame war only makes it worse. It can take ages for all the mud to come off your face. Especially for a company (looking like a "poopyhole" in front of the target demographic) that can be a costly affair too.

[Warborg]

I think what people (for instance Warborg and Fozzy The Bear) seem to forget is that this thread is a reply to the advertisement thread of the Turbo. Randy says some things in there that can be taken as an insult to SlikStik.

I'm not forgetting, but you kinda said it yourself...  You say that he said some things that "can be taken as an insult to SlikStik", or just trying to pump up his own product.  I wouldn't have had a single issue with SS if his post was pumping up his product, but his post was a direct attack at Randy, not "could be taken as an insult"...

[Fozzy The Bear]

I think what people (for instance Warborg and Fozzy The Bear) seem to forget is that this thread is a reply to the advertisement thread of the Turbo. Randy says some things in there that can be taken as an insult to SlikStik.

I didn't forget any such thing.... I see no reference whatsoever in Randy's Turbo advertisement. If you read such reference, then you are inferring it... it does not mention Christian or his product directly anywhere.

I do agree with you that flame wars don't do either party any good. But Randy has a perfect right to defend himself against the alleged lies that were told in Slick Stick Christians first post. 

Randy did that eloquently, and without insult, by providing a technical answer... The response to which, appears to be more insults and no proper technical response from Christian who IMHO is clearly out of his depth in his understanding of the technology involved.

also IMHO Right now Christian can consider himself lucky not to be facing a Libel and Defamation Suit from Groovy Game Gear, in respect of the alleged lies he told in his first posting, given that he names them directly.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

All we see from you is your insults to your competitors.... and you now insult all of the members of this forum in response to me!  You really are unbelievable.

You know Randy has done the same thing.  Remember the early keywiz vs ipac threads...  Brand loyalty does interesting things to people

I will come off as biased here, but I do remember the early Keywiz vs. I-pac threads and I don't remember Randy doing the same thing. . .

There were debates on how the shift function on the KeyWiz was an additional input and the shift function on the I-PAC took away an action button (which very few people other than me seemed to be able to grasp, for whatever reason).

And there were debates on USB vs. PS/2 - with the technical data from RandyT and AndyWarne being presented at a level that I think went over the heads of most of the forum members (including myself).

But I don't remember RandyT saying that the forum was ignorant, or that the technical issues were bunk . . .

Doesn't the number of teeth affect how the game feels compared to the original?  Let's say the original tempest cabinet if you turned the knob 1 complete rotation that the ship went half way
around the first level.

From my page:
Larry Smith posted the following info on BYOAC for Tempest calibration:  "Here is the answer I got from someone with an actual tempest. Three turns of the spinner equals one spin of the shooter on the first tube. Thanks to Jim Tippins for the info."

  If your spinner had more teeth, assuming 1:1 sensitivity settings in mame, wouldn't the ship go more than half way around the level.  So it would have a different feel to it?

Not sure - That's what Christian implied, but I would think the spinner firmware might know that 260 pulses equal one rotation, or 80 pulses equal one rotation, etc.  Perhaps RandyT could comment on this.

Yes, you can change sensitivity in mame.  My question is what would be the perfect spinner so that most games wouldn't need adjusting?  As it would be annoying to go through the majority of the spinner games to adjust it if you don't have to.

That's what RandyT is implying the Turbo-Twist does.  The market will have to determine how factual his assertions are.

Of course, one would have to have access to the original game to see how close it is.

Here's an idea, but it only works if the teeth are interpreted the way you suggest and not the way I suggest.

Currently, MAME is set-up to work with the original hardware, so if the game (Arkanoid) used a 476-tooth spinner, that is what MAME expects - if the game used a 24 tooth spinner (Pole Position), that is what MAME expects, and then you play with the sensitivity settings to make it work properly.

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

FWIW.

[Fozzy The Bear]

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

Now that is a quality idea! .... Mike are you reading this... If not it needs a cross post to the Power Mame forum.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

Now that is a quality idea! .... Mike are you reading this... If not it needs a cross post to the Power Mame forum.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

I would like confirmation from someone like RandyT or Urebel or Haze that I am understanding it correctly, and then I can add it to the PowerMAME Wiki (and probably PM MikeQ).

[patrickl]

Lol, I guess you just read into a message what you want, but if you say the first post in this thread is a direct attack then I cannot see how the points brought up in there (which come from the TurboTwist thread) are not an attack the other way around (I'm not just talking about the first advertisment post itself, but also the replies in the thread that followed).

I think the point Christian brings up in his first post are valid points:
- The designs look like pretty similar to me too (and the stainless steel joystick handles do too so I guess Christian says "again" because of that) The wording here is a bit "unprofessional" though.
- Christian didn't understand the use for a higher definition wheel and he tried to explain why. Seems a bit weak to me, but I guess a review will one day tell.
- Comment about the jokes regarding the smooth spinning of the Tornado
- Comment about the price of the Tonado

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Christian (to be honest I'm much more in favor of Randy especially seeing how much bigger his contribution of cool gadgets is to the community) and I think SlikStik came out of this thread looking pretty bad (especially after the last few attacks), but to imply that him starting this thread is uncalled for and the "lies" in the first post are a reason for a libel suit is just silly.

[patrickl]

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

Now that is a quality idea! .... Mike are you reading this... If not it needs a cross post to the Power Mame forum.

Yeah, that would be really cool. I was wondering how that would work. To be honest I'd probably change the settings to suit my own taste anyway, but out of the box most spinner games seem to differ quite a lot (in movement speed) with their standard settings.

[Deefish]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

Ah hahhaha...  Way to go, buddy...  Way to go... 

You basically insult the population of this forum by calling us ignorant, and then imply how we'll mindlessly be impressed by a shiny bauble.

I thought at one time (prior to your initial attack) I MIGHT order one of your knobs, even with the inflated shipping costs, but now I think I'd just rather impale a bagel on the spinner shaft and see how that works...

Deer uggg or she person,

Durrrrrrrrr eeeeeooorr......me likey shiny bauble.......BYOAC my friend......pretty shiny spinning knobby...... me likey this hobby durrrrr.....what mean Arkanoid?? me use real bat and ball, glass and bright tube thingy no like smash....

KrUnK no have appetite now. head throb like volcano.

two bad men must go in death arena, fight out difference, two uggs enter only one ugg leave!!

sorely mine,
KrUnK FoUnDeRsOn

[Kremmit]

Not sure - That's what Christian implied, but I would think the spinner firmware might know that 260 pulses equal one rotation, or 80 pulses equal one rotation, etc.  Perhaps RandyT could comment on this.

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

I would like confirmation from someone like RandyT or Urebel or Haze that I am understanding it correctly, and then I can add it to the PowerMAME Wiki (and probably PM MikeQ).

I can confirm from my testing that the spinner hardware does not know how many teeth equal one rotation.  The OptiWiz, OptiPac, SlikStik interface, MouseHack, or whatever just counts teeth.  (Well, it's more complicated than that, but it'll do for our purposes.)  The number of teeth on the wheel definately changes the amount of on-screen rotation you get from one turn of the knob.  I had to use very different analog sensetivity settings with my DOT spinner than I did with my Blasteroids spinner to get the same amount of movement on-screen.  I was using the first wave of Tempest to test this.

What I don't know, is whether or not the sensetivity settings can be determined directly from the number of encoder teeth.  In theory, this works fine, but different PC configurations, versions of Windows, MAME, mouse drivers and other differences between individual systems might make the magic number different for every user.  But PowerMAME might be able to at least "even up" the differences between whichever spinner the user has and the game they're trying to play- leaving only a global analog sensetivity setting to tweak, rather than having to tweak each game. 

[Warborg]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

Ah hahhaha...  Way to go, buddy...  Way to go... 

You basically insult the population of this forum by calling us ignorant, and then imply how we'll mindlessly be impressed by a shiny bauble.

I thought at one time (prior to your initial attack) I MIGHT order one of your knobs, even with the inflated shipping costs, but now I think I'd just rather impale a bagel on the spinner shaft and see how that works...

Deer uggg or she person,

Durrrrrrrrr eeeeeooorr......me likey shiny bauble.......BYOAC my friend......pretty shiny spinning knobby...... me likey this hobby durrrrr.....what mean Arkanoid?? me use real bat and ball, glass and bright tube thingy no like smash....

KrUnK no have appetite now. head throb like volcano.

two bad men must go in death arena, fight out difference, two uggs enter only one ugg leave!!

sorely mine,
KrUnK FoUnDeRsOn

I'm just dizzy after reading this...  Dizzy, I tell you.

[Tiger-Heli]

Not sure - That's what Christian implied, but I would think the spinner firmware might know that 260 pulses equal one rotation, or 80 pulses equal one rotation, etc.  Perhaps RandyT could comment on this.

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

I would like confirmation from someone like RandyT or Urebel or Haze that I am understanding it correctly, and then I can add it to the PowerMAME Wiki (and probably PM MikeQ).

I can confirm from my testing that the spinner hardware does not know how many teeth equal one rotation.  The OptiWiz, OptiPac, SlikStik interface, MouseHack, or whatever just counts teeth.  (Well, it's more complicated than that, but it'll do for our purposes.)  The number of teeth on the wheel definately changes the amount of on-screen rotation you get from one turn of the knob.  I had to use very different analog sensetivity settings with my DOT spinner than I did with my Blasteroids spinner to get the same amount of movement on-screen.  I was using the first wave of Tempest to test this.

What I don't know, is whether or not the sensetivity settings can be determined directly from the number of encoder teeth.  In theory, this works fine, but different PC configurations, versions of Windows, MAME, mouse drivers and other differences between individual systems might make the magic number different for every user.  But PowerMAME might be able to at least "even up" the differences between whichever spinner the user has and the game they're trying to play- leaving only a global analog sensetivity setting to tweak, rather than having to tweak each game. 

Okay - so we've confirmed that number of teeth affects motion on-screen, and RandyT told me this:

Tempest:  On the TurboTwist, 3 spins [per rotation] on the first tube is between 16% and 17% [sensitivity].  This is particularly interesting, as the original Tempest spinner had
72 CPR.  This means that there isn't a direct correlation between the percentage of sensitivity in MAME and the number of teeth on the spinner.
If there were, it should be at about 55%.  So either there are more unused
positions in the ROM driver, or something else is out of whack.

I suspect we may have several fixes for PowerMAME (Similar to what we have with Rotary Joysticks), where perhaps the MAMEdev that wrote the driver just made it work well with whatever mouse he was using, so the first change is to make the game accurate for the original hardware, the second fix is to add an ini variable for number of encoder teeth, and the final step is to optimize the drivers based on the new ini variable.   

[Silver]

... where perhaps the MAMEdev that wrote the driver just made it work well with whatever mouse he was using, so the first change is to make the game accurate for the original hardware, the second fix is to add an ini variable for number of encoder teeth, and the final step is to optimize the drivers based on the new ini variable.   

There could be quite a few factors to work through here - obviously the windows mouse settings (acceleration etc...) in windows control panel (for windows systems). But do different mouse drivers deal with the signals differently? inbuilt scaling? Would using an optipac or optiwhiz  be different?

[RobotronNut]

There could be quite a few factors to work through here - obviously the windows mouse settings (acceleration etc...) in windows control panel (for windows systems). But do different mouse drivers deal with the signals differently? inbuilt scaling? Would using an optipac or optiwhiz  be different?

is there a standard set of mouse driver settings in windows xp that work best with mame? (i'm using a tornado spinner)

[u_rebelscum]

Very quick info on relative analog (mouse) movements:

I'm calling a relative change of one as a single "count", not "pulse" as mentioned in prior posts.
The "*"ed stuff have some exceptions to that rule, so please keep that in mind.

Modern PC mice get 4 counts per tooth* (the two edges per tooth, times the two sensors).
Original arcade machines could have gotten 1, 2 or 4 counts per tooth.  The only one I'm sure of is 720, and it gets 2 counts per tooth.

What is now done in the mouse firmware was done on the arcade PCB*.  This means mame cannot emulate this part of the hardware*.

Different PC mice have different counts per rotation.

Windows OS mouse sensitivity, acceleration, & speed are not supposed to effect directX games according to MS, but for some mice it does.

The above might be because some mice can scale the output in the firmware.  The most common is a simple logrithmic pattern: instead of 1, 2, 3, 4 counts per communication, it sends 1, 2, 4, 8 but it could be anything.

The most reliable* way to test the true output count of a PC mouse device in windows is set the mouse speed, sensitivity, enhancement, acceleration, etc to the lowest possible or none.  Otherwise the count could be modified by the firmware, OS kernel, or driver.

Most* Windows people like to have an acceleration (called "enhanced pointer precision" in winXP), which scales the mouse much like the firmware scaling, but usually with weirder curves.  (Such as 1, 1, 3, 6, 10, 16, 24, 24, 24 ... instead of speed of 1, 2, 3...)


To sum up:
Matching physical tooth count is not good enough, nor always needed.

You could have the orignal hardware hooked up to a PC, and even with all the speed etc set to plain, have the game see 2x or 4x the count per revolution.  With the windows settings to default or normal PC values, it might be perfect at low speeds, and totally off at high speeds at the best.

And spinners with lower tooth counts per wheel can (however unlikely) exactly match (in mame) the original hardware count if, for example, the original hardware was a 1x count per tooth with 4x the teeth (and all the windows settings are perfect).


FWIW:
Modern PC mice use "state change detection" of "quadrature signals" to see it turn.  "Quadrature singals" is different than "pulse singals", but the output to PCs of either would be the same.  I doubt any arcade hardware used pulse singals.  The old tech was "edge detection" (of the same quadrature singals), and this was very common in the early arcades.  None of this matters to counts per revolution matching.

[Kremmit]

So, all we've gotta do is get everybody to use the same operating system, same mouse drivers, and same settings.  Piece of cake.   

[brandon]

so is there an way somebody could make a program that counted these pulses for calibrating optical devices?  For example, the program could tell you to rotate your spinner 360^ and it would count the pulses.   You could also spin it at different speeds to see if acceleration was taking place.  Then it would give you a number that you could use to figure out the correct sensitivity setting for each game.   or perhaps it could calculate this for you set the configuration automatically.  or the great mamedevs could implement a "global" optical calibration so that once the sensitivity was set in in general, all game would behave correctly.. < wishful thinking I know 

[RobotronNut]

The most reliable way to test the true output count of a PC mouse device in windows is set the mouse speed, sensitivity, enhancement, acceleration, etc to the lowest possible or none.  Otherwise the count could be modified by the firmware, OS kernel, or driver.

Thanks for the info. I notice you said "test." Should the "lowest or none" settings be what we always use when running MAME?

[clhug]

Ok, this is in regards to the resolution issue; does tooth count matter?

Kremmit, you indicated the following tooth counts:

DOT spinner (original) has 128 teeth.
The Oscar DOT has 72, same as Blasteroids, Tempest, Oscar Vortex, and the 720 joystick.
The Pole Position ~ approx 80 teeth per one turn of the steering wheel.
Arkanoid has 24 teeth but 486 per single revolution of the knob.

According to Randy, resolution matters, so much so that you can never have too much only too little because you can always down sample your resolution by setting the sensitivity in MAME to some value below 100%.

Well...I own an Arkanoid spinner.  If you can always down sample, why doesn't everyone use a  geared spinner instead of a direct drive spinner?

For example, I could use my arkanoid spinner and then just set the sensitivity down as follows:

26.34% for DOT (128 teeth/486 teeth)
14.81% for Tempest et al. (72/486)
16.67% for Pole Position (81/486)

Comments??

Hey, real discussion! 

First reason:  If you've got an Arkanoid spinner, and have spent any time with a regular spinner, then you already know the answer.  They feel totally different.  The Arkanoid spinner feels "gritty" due to the gears, as opposed to the silky-smooth feel of a regular spinner (in good condition).  Also, the Arkanoid spinner has no "weight" to it.  While super-long spin times may or may not be of value in gameplay, some spin time certainly is, and the Arkanoid spinner pretty much stops turning the instant you take your hand off of it, no matter how hard you whirl it.

Second reason:  Availabillity.  Arkanoid spinners are in short supply, and the Happ/Wico replacement ones cost big $$ and the knob on them looks ugly as sin.  Those are the only geared-spinner options I am aware of.

Third reason:  Downsampling is much better than upsampling, but it's still not perfect.  Unless your downsample ratio is an exact integer (1:2, 1:3, 1:4...), some rounding must take place, resulting in some uneven-ness.  Probably not a big issue, but..

That said, your numbers should give you roughly the same amount of on-screen movement per rotation of the spinner knob that you would have gotten with the original controller. 

Of course, there's still the question of whether or not MAME is providing the correct amount of movement per rotation in the first place.  The only way to verify that is to test with a real arcade PCB and the original controller.  There was a thread around here a few years back where folks did that for some games, you might be able to dig it up with some searching.

My first post here, of hopefully what will be many constructive posts.  I suppose off topic from the original post of this thread, but the posts about the Arkanoid spinner caught my attention.  I'm in the process of building my first MAME cabinet and looking at building my own control panel.  I definitely want a spinner.

I also have an original Arkanoid spinner (actually an original Arkanoid II game fully functional, along with an original Gorf, in my basement).  I can definitely see how the gearing produces much higher resolution and I originally had the same question as specfire, why not used a geared system?  And I'm very glad that Kremmit reponded.  I know exactly what you mean about the gritty feel and no spin time of the Arkanoid spinner.

However, what about a belt-driven system?  This ought to provide the same type of benefit of getting technically higher resolution of a "gearing" ratio while still maintaining the smoother operation and probably pretty good spin times of today's "direct-drive" spinners.

Have one shaft with just the knob and a large flywheel (with some weight to it to help with spin times) and another shaft with the encoder and a small flywheel, and a belt between the two flywheels.  With good bearings on both shafts it ought to spin very nicely.  Sure you might have to replace the belt every few years, and you'd have to make sure the belt material is good and doesn't slip, but I think the end result could be worth it for something like Arkanoid.

If I had any idea where to get shaft materials and bearings I might even try to build one of these myself using one of the existing spinners (either SlikStik's or GGG's) as the base spinner.  You could mount this upside down under the control panel and just have to build the extra shaft system to attach to it.  Of course this would take up more real-estate under the control panel but again, it might be worth it for the more finite control.

This might also make it easier to do a push/pull type spinner (I'm also a big Tron fan).  You wouldn't have to push/pull the whole spinner unit, or even the encoder, just the shaft that the knob is on, though of course still maintaining alignment of the flywheels.  Maybe something like a solid shaft inside a hollow tube, the outside hollow tube stays in place, the inside shaft can slide up and down, but the two tubes are interlocked somehow so that they rotate together and thus of course rotate the large flywheel.

On a side note, for the Discs of Tron push/pull spinner, is it just purely two position, up and down (probably using a switch), or does it detect inbetween positions too, either like an analog pot or another encoder detecting Z position?Also, does it "latch" in to place in the up position, or if you let go does it drop back down?  Just curious in case I do decide to try to build my own.

Thanks!

[markrvp]

On a side note, for the Discs of Tron push/pull spinner, is it just purely two position, up and down (probably using a switch), or does it detect inbetween positions too, either like an analog pot or another encoder detecting Z position?Also, does it "latch" in to place in the up position, or if you let go does it drop back down?  Just curious in case I do decide to try to build my own.

There are two leafswitches which are digital inputs (not analog). One is activated on a push down, the other is activated on a pull up.  The shaft returns to center, it does not lock into place.

[brandon]

However, what about a belt-driven system?  This ought to provide the same type of benefit of getting technically higher resolution of a "gearing" ratio while still maintaining the smoother operation and probably pretty good spin times of today's "direct-drive" spinners.

Have one shaft with just the knob and a large flywheel (with some weight to it to help with spin times) and another shaft with the encoder and a small flywheel, and a belt between the two flywheels.  With good bearings on both shafts it ought to spin very nicely.  Sure you might have to replace the belt every few years, and you'd have to make sure the belt material is good and doesn't slip, but I think the end result could be worth it for something like Arkanoid.

If I had any idea where to get shaft materials and bearings I might even try to build one of these myself using one of the existing spinners (either SlikStik's or GGG's) as the base spinner.  You could mount this upside down under the control panel and just have to build the extra shaft system to attach to it.  Of course this would take up more real-estate under the control panel but again, it might be worth it for the more finite control.

ooh.. great idea! I like the sounds of that... and I'm sure there is some belt driven device that you could steal belts and pulleys off of.. like maybe tape decks or VCRs... hmm... time to rummage through all my "junk"

[clhug]

On a side note, for the Discs of Tron push/pull spinner, is it just purely two position, up and down (probably using a switch), or does it detect inbetween positions too, either like an analog pot or another encoder detecting Z position?Also, does it "latch" in to place in the up position, or if you let go does it drop back down?  Just curious in case I do decide to try to build my own.

There are two leafswitches which are digital inputs (not analog). One is activated on a push down, the other is activated on a pull up.  The shaft returns to center, it does not lock into place.

Ah, so it's really a 3 position push pull?

[Tiger-Heli]

Ah, so it's really a 3 position push pull?

More like a momentary ON-OFF-ON if you want to use that analogy, but correct.

[Minwah]

Just a couple of points regarding the software side...

Firstly, it seems to me the default sensitivity settings in MAME are just whatever the driver author felt like (or more likely the best setting that worked for him/her).

Secondly, it would be VERY handy to be able to specify analog settings (inc. sensitivity) in ctrlr file(s)...but this feature seems to be broken (& has been since the introduction of the system).  If this were fixed it would be hugely beneficial, IMO.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just a couple of points regarding the software side...

Firstly, it seems to me the default sensitivity settings in MAME are just whatever the driver author felt like (or more likely the best setting that worked for him/her).

Secondly, it would be VERY handy to be able to specify analog settings (inc. sensitivity) in ctrlr file(s)...but this feature seems to be broken (& has been since the introduction of the system).  If this were fixed it would be hugely beneficial, IMO.

Best hope of adding this is probably to either post it on the PowerMAME forum or the PowerMAME Wiki.

[KenToad]

Hey, guys, come on now.  Who out there has hacked a mouse and had a problem with spinner sensitivity?  I find the discussion of resolution, etc., kind of funny because I've used three different el cheapo mice with definitely low tooth count encoder wheels and had nothing but success. 

For me, the analog settings for spinners is one of the few things that the Mamedev's seem to have designed specifically for playing rather than documenting (the lame-o usual scapegoat) the games (in addition to the rotary issue, which apparently was designed so the Dev's could play Ikari with a spinner). 

The sensitivity thing works brilliantly for me.  I don't care how high of a resolution encoder/analog interface Arkanoid uses in the arcade.  I remember playing it when I was 15.  The game is damn hard on the original hardware or at home.  I love the game, but it's not getting any easier or better by having a higher resolution interface.  The idea to get a perfect spinner for Arkanoid seems a tad ridiculous to me.   

My two cents, enjoy your spinner games guys.  I'm sure both Christian and Randy have wonderful well-designed products to offer, although I have no experience with either one.

Cheers,
KenToad

[PetitMorte]

In light of the uncivil nature of this entire thread, I will no longer require spinners for any of my control panels.  I will be using sliders liberated from my stereo's graphic equalizer, and encoders made of bamboo toothpicks by Bulgarian idiot-savants.

Is the popcorn low salt?  My doctor said I should lower my sodium intake.

[BamBam]

I love my Tornado and it's small foot print.  Highly recommended.

John

[pahchay]

  I bought a Slikstik spinner from Happ and it will only control the Vertical axis.  It looks like MAME wants input on the horizontal axis.  I heard that a jumper will change the axis direction.  there are some jumper pins, but it didn't come with a jumper installed.  I tried every possible connection and the only thing I was able to do was feed voltage back through the USB cable and kill the connection (scary).  no permanent damage, but I'm done trying to mess with it until I get some advice.

BTW I also have the Happ trackball on the same USB hub and they both work simultaneously in windows, but only the trackball works in mame.  I try to use the tabbed controls setup in mame but it doesn't seem to recognize the spinner

for $75 I WANT TO PLAY TEMPEST!!!!!!!!

[NinjaEpisode]

You should contact Slik Stik support. 

[CheffoJeffo]

You should contact Slik Stik support. 

 

[leapinlew]

for $75 I WANT TO PLAY TEMPEST!!!!!!!!

Just don't fire up Arkanoid. You'll really be miffed then...

[u_rebelscum]

BTW I also have the Happ trackball on the same USB hub and they both work simultaneously in windows, but only the trackball works in mame.  I try to use the tabbed controls setup in mame but it doesn't seem to recognize the spinner

Both should be working in mame.  Try:

Disable -multimouse (which is the default).
Remap the spinner to the dial_analog ports, not the dial_inc or dial_dec ports.
You have to spin the spinner fast enough but not too fast while remapping.  (Too fast is very hard to do with the tornado.)

To remap correctly: tab, input (general), player 1, dial_analog, spin spinner, (wait ~1 sec for mame to register inputs), esc or tab out of menu.

If you still have problems, and you run from the commandline, could you add -verbose to the mame.ini or commandline, and post the resulting text?

[pahchay]

You should contact Slik Stik support. 

Slik Stik has Support?? I can't even find a website for them.

[pahchay]

BTW I also have the Happ trackball on the same USB hub and they both work simultaneously in windows, but only the trackball works in mame.  I try to use the tabbed controls setup in mame but it doesn't seem to recognize the spinner

Both should be working in mame.  Try:

Disable -multimouse (which is the default).
Remap the spinner to the dial_analog ports, not the dial_inc or dial_dec ports.
You have to spin the spinner fast enough but not too fast while remapping.  (Too fast is very hard to do with the tornado.)

To remap correctly: tab, input (general), player 1, dial_analog, spin spinner, (wait ~1 sec for mame to register inputs), esc or tab out of menu.

If you still have problems, and you run from the commandline, could you add -verbose to the mame.ini or commandline, and post the resulting text?

Nothing  you said makes sense (I'm new) I'm using MAME32 as my frontend, and don't use the command line version of MAME  I don't know where the "Analog Ports" are in mame and i've never seen the "Enable multimouse" option anywhere.  I really appreciate the help

[scotthh]

You should contact Slik Stik support. 

Slik Stik has Support?? I can't even find a website for them.

pahchay, that was a joke, see this thread.

re: Nothing you said makes sense:
Start Tempest. Hit tab on your keyboard, follow the rest of the scum's instructions.

To remap correctly: tab, input (general), player 1, dial_analog, spin spinner, (wait ~1 sec for mame to register inputs), esc or tab out of menu.

[u_rebelscum]

Nothing  you said makes sense (I'm new) I'm using MAME32 as my frontend...

No problem.  Just don't want to sound condescending by including, in detail, something you've already tried.  (Plus if I start going into detail, I get too wordy too often.)

Multimouse can be set for all games or specific games.  In mameui, all games, go to the top menu, select Options, Default game options, then select the controllers tab.  You sould see the "multiple mice" check box.  It should be unchecked.  For game specific, select the game, right click, and select "properties", then follow the same starting from the controller tab.  The reason you want to disable this is so all mice devices control the same, just like in windows.  Multiple mice option is great for multiple trackball games like marble madness, but it confuses many people.

As for the ports, it's just what mame calls the input buttons, joysticks, mouse axes, etc.  Analog inputs are special, and have three "ports": analog, inc and dec.  The first is for true analog devices, the latter two are for digital inputs (so you can use, say, keyboard to play tempest if that's all you have).  The confusing part is analog devices can be used to control digital ports, but if you map as such, mame converts the analog info to digital, the treats them just like a keyboard (and you get just as bad control).  So map your analog devices to the xxx_analog ports.

As for remapping, scotthh touched on what I left out, but there's also MameFAQ remap basics and remap analog differences.


I love mame's many features, but it does make the learning curve a little steep.

[Gunner]

Hi.  I hope You Rebel Scum will read this:  I am having the same problem described above.  I have a tornado spinner that windows recognizes, but MAME and Tempest do not.  The tornado spinner is the only device I have plugged in.  I don' t even have a mouse.  I do have a touchpad and cursor button (on my Thinkpad), but MAME doesn't recognize those either.

I followed the directions above:  tab, general controls, dial analog, spin, and Mame did notice enough to say "Mouse X" when I hit escape, but the dial still doesn't work in the game.  Any ideas?  Mame says its version 0.128. 

[Ummon]

Hi.  I hope You Rebel Scum will read this:  I am having the same problem described above.  I have a tornado spinner that windows recognizes, but MAME and Tempest do not.  The tornado spinner is the only device I have plugged in.  I don' t even have a mouse.  I do have a touchpad and cursor button (on my Thinkpad), but MAME doesn't recognize those either.

I followed the directions above:  tab, general controls, dial analog, spin, and Mame did notice enough to say "Mouse X" when I hit escape, but the dial still doesn't work in the game.  Any ideas?  Mame says its version 0.128. 

Look up 'mame.ini'...or use MameUI and turn it on in the GUI.

[Barry Barcrest]

if you are using mame32 don't you need to select the game properties (Right Click) and select nable mouse input. It should then work.

[u_rebelscum]

I agree with Ummon & Barry; sounds like mouse support isn't enabled.  Mame's default is enable only keyboard inputs, and so the user needs to enable mouse/lightgun/joystick if they want to use 'em.  (MameDev FAQ)

[Gunner]

Thanks all, you were right.  I was double-clicking rather than running MAME from the command line.  Running it with -mouse fixed it and I'm playing Tempest for real for the first time since I owned a cabinet back in 1990 or so.

[lowrider3121]

Hey all just pickup a cheap spinner but can'tr get it to work in my games I'm running mamewah as a front end spinner works in windows and in mamewah just not in the game any ideals tried the tab input game but the game input does not see it.

[Necro]

...why did you post it here?  You might want to start your own thread on that spinner and provide some info on model, etc.

[Ginsu Victim]