SlikStik Tornado Spinner News

[MikeDeuce]

Ouch, if only I had waited a couple weeks to order my Tornado (I ordered on the 15th) and I just received UPS ship notification today :\ )

Any chance my order shipping today will be of the new batch with the new board and spinner set screws, etc?

[Fozzy The Bear]

My My My....   Christian AKA Slick Stick.... You seem to feel awfully threatened by Randy T's product.

In fact so much so that you make a huge price reduction in yours......  Users of your product should be asking themselves a couple of things here:

1) If you can reduce the price of your spinner now, why couldn't you have done it before. Some of the pepole who already bought from you, are probably feeling quite ripped off at the moment.

2) Do they really want to buy from a company that insults its competitors in a public forum the way that you have here.

Randy T on the other hand quite rightly defends himself with accurate technical comment. What do you come back with.... more insults and ignoring his technical points.

Sorry matey! but you've done yourself no favours here by insulting your competitors.  I know where my money will go, and it's not in your direction.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[miles2912]

tick tick tick tick tick . . . .

(this thread is in danger of journeying to post hell...)

I have a feeling they are both going to regret posing this here.  It is VERY evident that there is not that big of a market for spinners so loosing half your target demographics can hurt the pocketbook. 

Please flush the thread and let the products speak for themselves ... the designers are having a rough time doing it for themself.

Don

[Fat_Trucker]

In terms of design is it not likely that all spinners are going to share common characteristics so mud slinging back and forth seems a pointless exercise.

Its perfectly rational for competitors to point out advantages between competing products.

The overall basis for the purchase of a 'mame' spinner is going to be all round compatibility unless you are buying it for a particular game. The only apparent way to have a perfect emulated experience would be to have several spinners of different resolutions for different types of games.

Mainly people's choice should come down to nothing more but value and function. Semantics and personalities really ought to be taken out of the equation. Its completely irrelevant where my money is concerned. No disrespect to SS or GGG but I don't care what kind of people you are or who has the moral high ground at any particular moment, I would buy the product that offers the best quality balanced by a competetive price.

I think its all getting a little bit personal and off topic. The floor should be given over to a straight unbiased comparison between the two products to help BYOAC users make a balanced choice about which way to go.

As it seems there are few people who have actually used both products its strange for so many people to have an opinion. In my experience Spinners along with other controls are something you really need to use, play games with and get a feel for before you can make any judgement regardless of how many whistles, bells or teeth it may have.

Perhaps people should take a step back and just let the orders do the talking.

I for one will be far more interested in posts from people who are using the spinners than in squabbling about whose got the biggest........er........equipment so to speak.

[SlikStik Christian]

My My My....   Christian AKA Slick Stick.... You seem to feel awfully threatened by Randy T's product.

In fact so much so that you make a huge price reduction in yours......  Users of your product should be asking themselves a couple of things here:

1) If you can reduce the price of your spinner now, why couldn't you have done it before. Some of the pepole who already bought from you, are probably feeling quite ripped off at the moment.

2) Do they really want to buy from a company that insults its competitors in a public forum the way that you have here.

Randy T on the other hand quite rightly defends himself with accurate technical comment. What do you come back with.... more insults and ignoring his technical points.

Sorry matey! but you've done yourself no favours here by insulting your competitors.  I know where my money will go, and it's not in your direction.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here. You are saying because I have offered a sale on the Tornado spinner that previous customers would feel ripped off? Product sales happen everyday in many retail establishments all across the world and their sole purpose IS to bring in more customers or compete with a competitor

[markrvp]

I hate technical mumbo jumbo.  If a joystick's description has something more than "red" or "blue" I get all confused.  What's up with that high-tech 8-way, 4-way stuff?

[rbarr110]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

Damn, pretty stupid statement.  The quantity of people that have replied to this thread is by far a small quantity of the people here.  Nice blanket statement insulting almost everyone on the board, heh, "abundance".

[dmsuchy]

Reading this thread was entertaining, man people can get worked up! I have not bought products from either vender but plan to in the future. My one opinion is that GGG spinner is not even close to a copy of the tornado, if your going to compare the "C" bracket, than you might as well tell Radio Flyer they stole your idea cause they use a "C" bracket to hold thier front wheels on. Come to think of it they also use dual bearings. Damn you guys stole technology from a kids wagon! The only thing that could be copied would maybe be software or something along that line. I do like Slickstik's knobs more, man that sounded a little werid, I wonder if they would work on GGG spiner? Maybe you should work together for even a better spinner for us byoacs.  

[TheCaptain]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

Damn, pretty stupid statement.  The quantity of people that have replied to this thread is by far a small quantity of the people here.  Nice blanket statement insulting almost everyone on the board, heh, "abundance".

Hang him!

I guess.

[screaming]

holy crap.  what is wrong with you people?!?! 

[clanggedin]

In all reality the techinical mumbo jumbo means diddly squat to arcade builders. What matters is how the product performs in the applications it was designed for.

I am sure someone will be reviewing the GGG spinner and how it compares to a Tornado. I offer myself as a review if RandyT is willing to send me a review model. I already have a Tornado to compare it with so Criatian can send me some light up ball top handles for my 360s  . I will work with James Mcgoven at Retroblast to have the reivew posted.

SlikStik offers some of the best quality products on the market. If that wasn't the case then they wouldn't be constantly coming out with additional products and selling the tons of the products currently offer. Groovy Game Gear is newer to the market but has quickly become a standard name in home arcade construction.

Since Oscar doesn't make spinners anymore there hasn't been any real competition for SlikStik in the spinner category.Spinner technology will become better because of it.

Now... Lets all just get along and play some games.

[TheCaptain]

I could totally test out some review units too, you know. For science.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

Yes, yours is very clear.

If you call the things I stated to him insulting, and not his to me, you are simply bias.

Pot calling the kettle black, me thinks...... You started it by insulting Randy T.  who is well liked and respected here for the astounding amount he's done for other people and for the generous amount of help and assistance he gives.

Quite apart from the fact that the technical points he made were 100% accurate whether you like it or not.

All we see from you is your insults to your competitors.... and you now insult all of the members of this forum in response to me!  You really are unbelievable.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

There you go again..... That's for us to deside NOT YOU!..... and to be blunt the majority of people here don't seem to agree with you on that point. I as an arcade industry professional, certainly don't agree with you. His technical points were very valid ones.

You started your first post by mud slinging.... Don't be so damned surprised when it turns round and bites you on the bum.

Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[SirPoonga]

All we see from you is your insults to your competitors.... and you now insult all of the members of this forum in response to me!  You really are unbelievable.

You know Randy has done the same thing.  Remember the early keywiz vs ipac threads...  Brand loyalty does interesting things to people

As mentioned, what really needs to be done is have some people compare the two with default settings (in windows and mame).

And no, you can't say Randy ripped off SlikStik's design.  If you can make that argument I can make the argument both ripped off oscarcontrol's design.  Spinners are going to have a knob, shaft, bearing, encoder, flywheel, ertc, so there are going to be simularities.  If you took the flywheel off of slikstik and oscarcontrols they would look amazingly simular.  If you too the encoder disc off of slikstik and randy's they would look amazingly simular.

It's like designing a dirt bike.  They all look the same from a distance, but have their own uniqueness when you analyze them.  The all have two wheels, gas tank, engine, mud guards, knobby tires, etc...

If you were to make a new spinner could you make it so one would say you aren't copying slikstik or oscarcontrol's appearance?  Well, I suppose you could.  You could encase hte whole thing and only have some wires coming out of it.  But mechanically they all work on the same principles.

This argument on if the technology is sound reminds me of the arguments between  Visual Basic 6.0 and Visual Basic .NET.  There are people who swear by VB 6.0 yet and don't like the new technology.  However, each does have it's pros and con over the others.

I see this with these two products.  I can see how having a spinner more like an original arcade spinner would be good.  I can also see how a spinner with a lot of teeth would be good (arkanoid), that's why oscarcontrols designed that large disc.

Doesn't the number of teeth affect how the game feels compared to the original?  Let's say the original tempest cabinet if you turned the knob 1 complete rotation that the ship went half way around the first level.  If your spinner had more teeth, assuming 1:1 sensitivity settings in mame, wouldn't the ship go more than half way around the level.  So it would have a different feel to it?
Yes, you can change sensitivity in mame.  My question is what would be the perfect spinner so that most games wouldn't need adjusting?  As it would be annoying to go through the majority of the spinner games to adjust it if you don't have to.
Of course, one would have to have access to the original game to see how close it is.

[Orclord]

Well to add my tuppence...

I don't think this thread has done anyone any favours...

Was a longer post....

But thought better of it

I'm not adding fuel...........

Just to say

Two suppliers should not be doing this in public

It will only damage both..........

[Warborg]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

Ah hahhaha...  Way to go, buddy...  Way to go... 

You basically insult the population of this forum by calling us ignorant, and then imply how we'll mindlessly be impressed by a shiny bauble.

I thought at one time (prior to your initial attack) I MIGHT order one of your knobs, even with the inflated shipping costs, but now I think I'd just rather impale a bagel on the spinner shaft and see how that works...

[patrickl]

I think what people (for instance Warborg and Fozzy The Bear) seem to forget is that this thread is a reply to the advertisement thread of the Turbo. Randy says some things in there that can be taken as an insult to SlikStik.

I guess sometimes both Randy and Christian forget that they are seen as a company. Companies are not supposed to duke it out like this. They are supposed to be well behaved and sensible. The point is, if you ever need support from people who blow up at the first hint of an argument then you better stay clear of them.

I guess it's hard to sit idly by when people make false accusations, but obviously it's better to not respond at all. Starting an inevitable flame war only makes it worse. It can take ages for all the mud to come off your face. Especially for a company (looking like a "poopyhole" in front of the target demographic) that can be a costly affair too.

[Warborg]

I think what people (for instance Warborg and Fozzy The Bear) seem to forget is that this thread is a reply to the advertisement thread of the Turbo. Randy says some things in there that can be taken as an insult to SlikStik.

I'm not forgetting, but you kinda said it yourself...  You say that he said some things that "can be taken as an insult to SlikStik", or just trying to pump up his own product.  I wouldn't have had a single issue with SS if his post was pumping up his product, but his post was a direct attack at Randy, not "could be taken as an insult"...

[Fozzy The Bear]

I think what people (for instance Warborg and Fozzy The Bear) seem to forget is that this thread is a reply to the advertisement thread of the Turbo. Randy says some things in there that can be taken as an insult to SlikStik.

I didn't forget any such thing.... I see no reference whatsoever in Randy's Turbo advertisement. If you read such reference, then you are inferring it... it does not mention Christian or his product directly anywhere.

I do agree with you that flame wars don't do either party any good. But Randy has a perfect right to defend himself against the alleged lies that were told in Slick Stick Christians first post. 

Randy did that eloquently, and without insult, by providing a technical answer... The response to which, appears to be more insults and no proper technical response from Christian who IMHO is clearly out of his depth in his understanding of the technology involved.

also IMHO Right now Christian can consider himself lucky not to be facing a Libel and Defamation Suit from Groovy Game Gear, in respect of the alleged lies he told in his first posting, given that he names them directly.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

All we see from you is your insults to your competitors.... and you now insult all of the members of this forum in response to me!  You really are unbelievable.

You know Randy has done the same thing.  Remember the early keywiz vs ipac threads...  Brand loyalty does interesting things to people

I will come off as biased here, but I do remember the early Keywiz vs. I-pac threads and I don't remember Randy doing the same thing. . .

There were debates on how the shift function on the KeyWiz was an additional input and the shift function on the I-PAC took away an action button (which very few people other than me seemed to be able to grasp, for whatever reason).

And there were debates on USB vs. PS/2 - with the technical data from RandyT and AndyWarne being presented at a level that I think went over the heads of most of the forum members (including myself).

But I don't remember RandyT saying that the forum was ignorant, or that the technical issues were bunk . . .

Doesn't the number of teeth affect how the game feels compared to the original?  Let's say the original tempest cabinet if you turned the knob 1 complete rotation that the ship went half way
around the first level.

From my page:
Larry Smith posted the following info on BYOAC for Tempest calibration:  "Here is the answer I got from someone with an actual tempest. Three turns of the spinner equals one spin of the shooter on the first tube. Thanks to Jim Tippins for the info."

  If your spinner had more teeth, assuming 1:1 sensitivity settings in mame, wouldn't the ship go more than half way around the level.  So it would have a different feel to it?

Not sure - That's what Christian implied, but I would think the spinner firmware might know that 260 pulses equal one rotation, or 80 pulses equal one rotation, etc.  Perhaps RandyT could comment on this.

Yes, you can change sensitivity in mame.  My question is what would be the perfect spinner so that most games wouldn't need adjusting?  As it would be annoying to go through the majority of the spinner games to adjust it if you don't have to.

That's what RandyT is implying the Turbo-Twist does.  The market will have to determine how factual his assertions are.

Of course, one would have to have access to the original game to see how close it is.

Here's an idea, but it only works if the teeth are interpreted the way you suggest and not the way I suggest.

Currently, MAME is set-up to work with the original hardware, so if the game (Arkanoid) used a 476-tooth spinner, that is what MAME expects - if the game used a 24 tooth spinner (Pole Position), that is what MAME expects, and then you play with the sensitivity settings to make it work properly.

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

FWIW.

[Fozzy The Bear]

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

Now that is a quality idea! .... Mike are you reading this... If not it needs a cross post to the Power Mame forum.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Tiger-Heli]

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

Now that is a quality idea! .... Mike are you reading this... If not it needs a cross post to the Power Mame forum.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

I would like confirmation from someone like RandyT or Urebel or Haze that I am understanding it correctly, and then I can add it to the PowerMAME Wiki (and probably PM MikeQ).

[patrickl]

Lol, I guess you just read into a message what you want, but if you say the first post in this thread is a direct attack then I cannot see how the points brought up in there (which come from the TurboTwist thread) are not an attack the other way around (I'm not just talking about the first advertisment post itself, but also the replies in the thread that followed).

I think the point Christian brings up in his first post are valid points:
- The designs look like pretty similar to me too (and the stainless steel joystick handles do too so I guess Christian says "again" because of that) The wording here is a bit "unprofessional" though.
- Christian didn't understand the use for a higher definition wheel and he tried to explain why. Seems a bit weak to me, but I guess a review will one day tell.
- Comment about the jokes regarding the smooth spinning of the Tornado
- Comment about the price of the Tonado

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Christian (to be honest I'm much more in favor of Randy especially seeing how much bigger his contribution of cool gadgets is to the community) and I think SlikStik came out of this thread looking pretty bad (especially after the last few attacks), but to imply that him starting this thread is uncalled for and the "lies" in the first post are a reason for a libel suit is just silly.

[patrickl]

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

Now that is a quality idea! .... Mike are you reading this... If not it needs a cross post to the Power Mame forum.

Yeah, that would be really cool. I was wondering how that would work. To be honest I'd probably change the settings to suit my own taste anyway, but out of the box most spinner games seem to differ quite a lot (in movement speed) with their standard settings.

[Deefish]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

Ah hahhaha...  Way to go, buddy...  Way to go... 

You basically insult the population of this forum by calling us ignorant, and then imply how we'll mindlessly be impressed by a shiny bauble.

I thought at one time (prior to your initial attack) I MIGHT order one of your knobs, even with the inflated shipping costs, but now I think I'd just rather impale a bagel on the spinner shaft and see how that works...

Deer uggg or she person,

Durrrrrrrrr eeeeeooorr......me likey shiny bauble.......BYOAC my friend......pretty shiny spinning knobby...... me likey this hobby durrrrr.....what mean Arkanoid?? me use real bat and ball, glass and bright tube thingy no like smash....

KrUnK no have appetite now. head throb like volcano.

two bad men must go in death arena, fight out difference, two uggs enter only one ugg leave!!

sorely mine,
KrUnK FoUnDeRsOn

[Kremmit]

Not sure - That's what Christian implied, but I would think the spinner firmware might know that 260 pulses equal one rotation, or 80 pulses equal one rotation, etc.  Perhaps RandyT could comment on this.

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

I would like confirmation from someone like RandyT or Urebel or Haze that I am understanding it correctly, and then I can add it to the PowerMAME Wiki (and probably PM MikeQ).

I can confirm from my testing that the spinner hardware does not know how many teeth equal one rotation.  The OptiWiz, OptiPac, SlikStik interface, MouseHack, or whatever just counts teeth.  (Well, it's more complicated than that, but it'll do for our purposes.)  The number of teeth on the wheel definately changes the amount of on-screen rotation you get from one turn of the knob.  I had to use very different analog sensetivity settings with my DOT spinner than I did with my Blasteroids spinner to get the same amount of movement on-screen.  I was using the first wave of Tempest to test this.

What I don't know, is whether or not the sensetivity settings can be determined directly from the number of encoder teeth.  In theory, this works fine, but different PC configurations, versions of Windows, MAME, mouse drivers and other differences between individual systems might make the magic number different for every user.  But PowerMAME might be able to at least "even up" the differences between whichever spinner the user has and the game they're trying to play- leaving only a global analog sensetivity setting to tweak, rather than having to tweak each game. 

[Warborg]

Ignorance seems to be in abundance here.

His technical posts mean nothing but mumbo jumbo; the facts are the facts regardless of big technical words that might amaze some people.

Ah hahhaha...  Way to go, buddy...  Way to go... 

You basically insult the population of this forum by calling us ignorant, and then imply how we'll mindlessly be impressed by a shiny bauble.

I thought at one time (prior to your initial attack) I MIGHT order one of your knobs, even with the inflated shipping costs, but now I think I'd just rather impale a bagel on the spinner shaft and see how that works...

Deer uggg or she person,

Durrrrrrrrr eeeeeooorr......me likey shiny bauble.......BYOAC my friend......pretty shiny spinning knobby...... me likey this hobby durrrrr.....what mean Arkanoid?? me use real bat and ball, glass and bright tube thingy no like smash....

KrUnK no have appetite now. head throb like volcano.

two bad men must go in death arena, fight out difference, two uggs enter only one ugg leave!!

sorely mine,
KrUnK FoUnDeRsOn

I'm just dizzy after reading this...  Dizzy, I tell you.

[Tiger-Heli]

Not sure - That's what Christian implied, but I would think the spinner firmware might know that 260 pulses equal one rotation, or 80 pulses equal one rotation, etc.  Perhaps RandyT could comment on this.

What if a new MAME derivative (are you listening, MikeQ - PowerMAME) had an .ini variable for number of spinner teeth (or spinner ratio) - then if you had a TurboTwist, you set this to 130, if you had an Arkanoid original spinner, you set it to 476, a pole position, you set it to 24.  Then if MAME saw a non-zero value for this, it recalculated the sensitivity in each game since it knew what type of spinner you had on your panel.

I would like confirmation from someone like RandyT or Urebel or Haze that I am understanding it correctly, and then I can add it to the PowerMAME Wiki (and probably PM MikeQ).

I can confirm from my testing that the spinner hardware does not know how many teeth equal one rotation.  The OptiWiz, OptiPac, SlikStik interface, MouseHack, or whatever just counts teeth.  (Well, it's more complicated than that, but it'll do for our purposes.)  The number of teeth on the wheel definately changes the amount of on-screen rotation you get from one turn of the knob.  I had to use very different analog sensetivity settings with my DOT spinner than I did with my Blasteroids spinner to get the same amount of movement on-screen.  I was using the first wave of Tempest to test this.

What I don't know, is whether or not the sensetivity settings can be determined directly from the number of encoder teeth.  In theory, this works fine, but different PC configurations, versions of Windows, MAME, mouse drivers and other differences between individual systems might make the magic number different for every user.  But PowerMAME might be able to at least "even up" the differences between whichever spinner the user has and the game they're trying to play- leaving only a global analog sensetivity setting to tweak, rather than having to tweak each game. 

Okay - so we've confirmed that number of teeth affects motion on-screen, and RandyT told me this:

Tempest:  On the TurboTwist, 3 spins [per rotation] on the first tube is between 16% and 17% [sensitivity].  This is particularly interesting, as the original Tempest spinner had
72 CPR.  This means that there isn't a direct correlation between the percentage of sensitivity in MAME and the number of teeth on the spinner.
If there were, it should be at about 55%.  So either there are more unused
positions in the ROM driver, or something else is out of whack.

I suspect we may have several fixes for PowerMAME (Similar to what we have with Rotary Joysticks), where perhaps the MAMEdev that wrote the driver just made it work well with whatever mouse he was using, so the first change is to make the game accurate for the original hardware, the second fix is to add an ini variable for number of encoder teeth, and the final step is to optimize the drivers based on the new ini variable.   

[Silver]

... where perhaps the MAMEdev that wrote the driver just made it work well with whatever mouse he was using, so the first change is to make the game accurate for the original hardware, the second fix is to add an ini variable for number of encoder teeth, and the final step is to optimize the drivers based on the new ini variable.   

There could be quite a few factors to work through here - obviously the windows mouse settings (acceleration etc...) in windows control panel (for windows systems). But do different mouse drivers deal with the signals differently? inbuilt scaling? Would using an optipac or optiwhiz  be different?

[RobotronNut]

There could be quite a few factors to work through here - obviously the windows mouse settings (acceleration etc...) in windows control panel (for windows systems). But do different mouse drivers deal with the signals differently? inbuilt scaling? Would using an optipac or optiwhiz  be different?

is there a standard set of mouse driver settings in windows xp that work best with mame? (i'm using a tornado spinner)

[u_rebelscum]

Very quick info on relative analog (mouse) movements:

I'm calling a relative change of one as a single "count", not "pulse" as mentioned in prior posts.
The "*"ed stuff have some exceptions to that rule, so please keep that in mind.

Modern PC mice get 4 counts per tooth* (the two edges per tooth, times the two sensors).
Original arcade machines could have gotten 1, 2 or 4 counts per tooth.  The only one I'm sure of is 720, and it gets 2 counts per tooth.

What is now done in the mouse firmware was done on the arcade PCB*.  This means mame cannot emulate this part of the hardware*.

Different PC mice have different counts per rotation.

Windows OS mouse sensitivity, acceleration, & speed are not supposed to effect directX games according to MS, but for some mice it does.

The above might be because some mice can scale the output in the firmware.  The most common is a simple logrithmic pattern: instead of 1, 2, 3, 4 counts per communication, it sends 1, 2, 4, 8 but it could be anything.

The most reliable* way to test the true output count of a PC mouse device in windows is set the mouse speed, sensitivity, enhancement, acceleration, etc to the lowest possible or none.  Otherwise the count could be modified by the firmware, OS kernel, or driver.

Most* Windows people like to have an acceleration (called "enhanced pointer precision" in winXP), which scales the mouse much like the firmware scaling, but usually with weirder curves.  (Such as 1, 1, 3, 6, 10, 16, 24, 24, 24 ... instead of speed of 1, 2, 3...)


To sum up:
Matching physical tooth count is not good enough, nor always needed.

You could have the orignal hardware hooked up to a PC, and even with all the speed etc set to plain, have the game see 2x or 4x the count per revolution.  With the windows settings to default or normal PC values, it might be perfect at low speeds, and totally off at high speeds at the best.

And spinners with lower tooth counts per wheel can (however unlikely) exactly match (in mame) the original hardware count if, for example, the original hardware was a 1x count per tooth with 4x the teeth (and all the windows settings are perfect).


FWIW:
Modern PC mice use "state change detection" of "quadrature signals" to see it turn.  "Quadrature singals" is different than "pulse singals", but the output to PCs of either would be the same.  I doubt any arcade hardware used pulse singals.  The old tech was "edge detection" (of the same quadrature singals), and this was very common in the early arcades.  None of this matters to counts per revolution matching.

[Kremmit]

So, all we've gotta do is get everybody to use the same operating system, same mouse drivers, and same settings.  Piece of cake.   

[brandon]

so is there an way somebody could make a program that counted these pulses for calibrating optical devices?  For example, the program could tell you to rotate your spinner 360^ and it would count the pulses.   You could also spin it at different speeds to see if acceleration was taking place.  Then it would give you a number that you could use to figure out the correct sensitivity setting for each game.   or perhaps it could calculate this for you set the configuration automatically.  or the great mamedevs could implement a "global" optical calibration so that once the sensitivity was set in in general, all game would behave correctly.. < wishful thinking I know 

[RobotronNut]

The most reliable way to test the true output count of a PC mouse device in windows is set the mouse speed, sensitivity, enhancement, acceleration, etc to the lowest possible or none.  Otherwise the count could be modified by the firmware, OS kernel, or driver.

Thanks for the info. I notice you said "test." Should the "lowest or none" settings be what we always use when running MAME?

[clhug]

Ok, this is in regards to the resolution issue; does tooth count matter?

Kremmit, you indicated the following tooth counts:

DOT spinner (original) has 128 teeth.
The Oscar DOT has 72, same as Blasteroids, Tempest, Oscar Vortex, and the 720 joystick.
The Pole Position ~ approx 80 teeth per one turn of the steering wheel.
Arkanoid has 24 teeth but 486 per single revolution of the knob.

According to Randy, resolution matters, so much so that you can never have too much only too little because you can always down sample your resolution by setting the sensitivity in MAME to some value below 100%.

Well...I own an Arkanoid spinner.  If you can always down sample, why doesn't everyone use a  geared spinner instead of a direct drive spinner?

For example, I could use my arkanoid spinner and then just set the sensitivity down as follows:

26.34% for DOT (128 teeth/486 teeth)
14.81% for Tempest et al. (72/486)
16.67% for Pole Position (81/486)

Comments??

Hey, real discussion! 

First reason:  If you've got an Arkanoid spinner, and have spent any time with a regular spinner, then you already know the answer.  They feel totally different.  The Arkanoid spinner feels "gritty" due to the gears, as opposed to the silky-smooth feel of a regular spinner (in good condition).  Also, the Arkanoid spinner has no "weight" to it.  While super-long spin times may or may not be of value in gameplay, some spin time certainly is, and the Arkanoid spinner pretty much stops turning the instant you take your hand off of it, no matter how hard you whirl it.

Second reason:  Availabillity.  Arkanoid spinners are in short supply, and the Happ/Wico replacement ones cost big $$ and the knob on them looks ugly as sin.  Those are the only geared-spinner options I am aware of.

Third reason:  Downsampling is much better than upsampling, but it's still not perfect.  Unless your downsample ratio is an exact integer (1:2, 1:3, 1:4...), some rounding must take place, resulting in some uneven-ness.  Probably not a big issue, but..

That said, your numbers should give you roughly the same amount of on-screen movement per rotation of the spinner knob that you would have gotten with the original controller. 

Of course, there's still the question of whether or not MAME is providing the correct amount of movement per rotation in the first place.  The only way to verify that is to test with a real arcade PCB and the original controller.  There was a thread around here a few years back where folks did that for some games, you might be able to dig it up with some searching.

My first post here, of hopefully what will be many constructive posts.  I suppose off topic from the original post of this thread, but the posts about the Arkanoid spinner caught my attention.  I'm in the process of building my first MAME cabinet and looking at building my own control panel.  I definitely want a spinner.

I also have an original Arkanoid spinner (actually an original Arkanoid II game fully functional, along with an original Gorf, in my basement).  I can definitely see how the gearing produces much higher resolution and I originally had the same question as specfire, why not used a geared system?  And I'm very glad that Kremmit reponded.  I know exactly what you mean about the gritty feel and no spin time of the Arkanoid spinner.

However, what about a belt-driven system?  This ought to provide the same type of benefit of getting technically higher resolution of a "gearing" ratio while still maintaining the smoother operation and probably pretty good spin times of today's "direct-drive" spinners.

Have one shaft with just the knob and a large flywheel (with some weight to it to help with spin times) and another shaft with the encoder and a small flywheel, and a belt between the two flywheels.  With good bearings on both shafts it ought to spin very nicely.  Sure you might have to replace the belt every few years, and you'd have to make sure the belt material is good and doesn't slip, but I think the end result could be worth it for something like Arkanoid.

If I had any idea where to get shaft materials and bearings I might even try to build one of these myself using one of the existing spinners (either SlikStik's or GGG's) as the base spinner.  You could mount this upside down under the control panel and just have to build the extra shaft system to attach to it.  Of course this would take up more real-estate under the control panel but again, it might be worth it for the more finite control.

This might also make it easier to do a push/pull type spinner (I'm also a big Tron fan).  You wouldn't have to push/pull the whole spinner unit, or even the encoder, just the shaft that the knob is on, though of course still maintaining alignment of the flywheels.  Maybe something like a solid shaft inside a hollow tube, the outside hollow tube stays in place, the inside shaft can slide up and down, but the two tubes are interlocked somehow so that they rotate together and thus of course rotate the large flywheel.

On a side note, for the Discs of Tron push/pull spinner, is it just purely two position, up and down (probably using a switch), or does it detect inbetween positions too, either like an analog pot or another encoder detecting Z position?Also, does it "latch" in to place in the up position, or if you let go does it drop back down?  Just curious in case I do decide to try to build my own.

Thanks!

[markrvp]

On a side note, for the Discs of Tron push/pull spinner, is it just purely two position, up and down (probably using a switch), or does it detect inbetween positions too, either like an analog pot or another encoder detecting Z position?Also, does it "latch" in to place in the up position, or if you let go does it drop back down?  Just curious in case I do decide to try to build my own.

There are two leafswitches which are digital inputs (not analog). One is activated on a push down, the other is activated on a pull up.  The shaft returns to center, it does not lock into place.

[brandon]

However, what about a belt-driven system?  This ought to provide the same type of benefit of getting technically higher resolution of a "gearing" ratio while still maintaining the smoother operation and probably pretty good spin times of today's "direct-drive" spinners.

Have one shaft with just the knob and a large flywheel (with some weight to it to help with spin times) and another shaft with the encoder and a small flywheel, and a belt between the two flywheels.  With good bearings on both shafts it ought to spin very nicely.  Sure you might have to replace the belt every few years, and you'd have to make sure the belt material is good and doesn't slip, but I think the end result could be worth it for something like Arkanoid.

If I had any idea where to get shaft materials and bearings I might even try to build one of these myself using one of the existing spinners (either SlikStik's or GGG's) as the base spinner.  You could mount this upside down under the control panel and just have to build the extra shaft system to attach to it.  Of course this would take up more real-estate under the control panel but again, it might be worth it for the more finite control.

ooh.. great idea! I like the sounds of that... and I'm sure there is some belt driven device that you could steal belts and pulleys off of.. like maybe tape decks or VCRs... hmm... time to rummage through all my "junk"

[clhug]

On a side note, for the Discs of Tron push/pull spinner, is it just purely two position, up and down (probably using a switch), or does it detect inbetween positions too, either like an analog pot or another encoder detecting Z position?Also, does it "latch" in to place in the up position, or if you let go does it drop back down?  Just curious in case I do decide to try to build my own.

There are two leafswitches which are digital inputs (not analog). One is activated on a push down, the other is activated on a pull up.  The shaft returns to center, it does not lock into place.

Ah, so it's really a 3 position push pull?

[Tiger-Heli]

Ah, so it's really a 3 position push pull?

More like a momentary ON-OFF-ON if you want to use that analogy, but correct.

[Minwah]

Just a couple of points regarding the software side...

Firstly, it seems to me the default sensitivity settings in MAME are just whatever the driver author felt like (or more likely the best setting that worked for him/her).

Secondly, it would be VERY handy to be able to specify analog settings (inc. sensitivity) in ctrlr file(s)...but this feature seems to be broken (& has been since the introduction of the system).  If this were fixed it would be hugely beneficial, IMO.