UltraCade wins AMOA 2005 Innovation Award

[Havok]

OK, I think we've covered all the main topics here except one:

Picture deleted. Please stop poisoning serious or on-topic threads with pictures of scantily clad women. (This is directed to no one person in particular).  --- saint

[Stingray]

This is the first time today that I was actually glad I opened this thread.

-S

[SirPoonga]

stratjakt, any more of that and I will consider it thread poisoining.

[stratjakt]

Dude, seriously, what are you even doing on site that's primarily geared toward classic gaming?

Firstly, not everyone considers Mr Do a "classic", most haven't heard of it.

Secondly, I'm derailing a really stupid argument, one that boils down to:

"MR Foley you are a real jerk!  Stop stealing other people work! 
...

Now I have to get back to downloading 0-sec NeoGeo romz for my arcade collection!"


Thirdly, I didn't think this site was dedicated to classics, so much as to those who like to build/restore arcade cabinets and controls, of which I am one of whom that does.


Also, this thread was "poisoned" from the original post.

[SirPoonga]

For BYOAC type users we will soon have our version of StarROMs called iROMs that will allow people to get legal copies of a lot of the games that we sell.  We are working closely with the MAMEDEV team on many of our products.  We also have a new lightgun board that has been completed that works with real coin-op guns like those from Happ Controls.  We have recently submitted our USBlinx JAMMA I/O PC Interface and uVC Video Interface to Kevin Steele for an impartial review.

Can you release your prices for iRoms?  I understand if it is too early.
Basically, can I get the games equal or cheaper than a collection like (linked) Midway Arcade Treasures and Atari Classics.  The readme for these collections say they are emulated arcade.
Are you going to be able to handle if a romset mame supports changes?  With all the work on discrete sound changes in mame some sets have been updated.

The lightgun thing is really cool.  I know people are interested in that if they own a real light gun.  But with the verge of using a PS2 lightgun people will have to deside how arcade authentic they want for the price.

[paigeoliver]

There is a reason to go after ANYONE using Mame if you want to keep away the competition.

That reason is that tons of emulated games are owned by companies that DON'T care. Its not hurting their sales because they pulled out of America 10 and 15 years ago and don't even have so much of a franchise office.

There are a large enough number of games belonging to companies that would never take the effort to protect their property (because their property is largely worthless), than anyone could build a machine just using those and have a gamelist that trounces the Ultracade.

Of course, all this means is that many cabinet builders are going to shift over to freeware games, buttloads of them. I can load a cabinet with freeware games so good that it would make any commercial multi-game look like a dog.

[SirPoonga]

Dude, seriously, what are you even doing on site that's primarily geared toward classic gaming?

Firstly, not everyone considers Mr Do a "classic", most haven't heard of it.

I think most people have heard of Mr. DO.  It was a great selling arcade game.  It sold many copies on the Apple IIe.

The mame history.dat file sums up pretty well
"Inspired by "Dig Dug". The first in a series of four Mr. Do! games, Mr Do! was one of video-gaming's biggest arcade successes. Unfortunately for Universal, none of their other games could match it in commercial terms and the company disappeared in the video game crash of 1983-84."

Secondly, I'm derailing a really stupid argument, one that boils down to:

"MR Foley you are a real jerk!  Stop stealing other people work! 
...

Now I have to get back to downloading 0-sec NeoGeo romz for my arcade collection!"

This issue has already been resolved.  No one said anything about downloading roms.

Also, this thread was "poisoned" from the original post.

how?

There is a reason to go after ANYONE using Mame if you want to keep away the competition.

That reason is that tons of emulated games are owned by companies that DON'T care. Its not hurting their sales because they pulled out of America 10 and 15 years ago and don't even have so much of a franchise office.

There are a large enough number of games belonging to companies that would never take the effort to protect their property (because their property is largely worthless), than anyone could build a machine just using those and have a gamelist that trounces the Ultracade.

Right, but it just takes one company that does care and is involved.  And it is still unfair competition to Ultracade as the games on those cabinets are illegal to be sold with the cabinet.

But it seems Ultracde did this because the mame team wasn't responding to his requests that they enforce their license.  If he warned them that he was going to trademark the name and they still didn't respond to that it is the mame's fault for not taking it seriously. 

I'm not completely sure that's how it went down but I can believe it. The mame devs are a stubborn bunch.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Ultracade.  but it sounds like the whole thing could have been avoided.

Of course, all this means is that many cabinet builders are going to shift over to freeware games, buttloads of them. I can load a cabinet with freeware games so good that it would make any commercial multi-game look like a dog.

Yes, check out this.

[CheffoJeffo]

Everyone knows that nothing produced prior to September 23 1999 is worth playing, unless it was from Nintendo.

Razzafrazzin kids ... rizzin ... razzin ... Galaga ... rizzin ... razzin ... Joust ... rizzin razzin ... Robotron ... rizzin razzin ... no respect .. sob ...

Where's my goshdarn killfile ?

 

Cheers

[stratjakt]

That reason is that tons of emulated games are owned by companies that DON'T care. Its not hurting their sales because they pulled out of America 10 and 15 years ago and don't even have so much of a franchise office.

It doesn't mean they don't care per se, it just means they cant do anything about it.  Imagine you own the rights to some game you wrote in 1989.  Now you're pretty much broke, the .com bubble burst, and you're just an average work-a-day joe.

Now you see your game featured on cabinets and collections being sold on eBay, and realize someone else is making $$ off of your work.  I'm not talking about people downloading roms w/o paying anything, but actual sale of your work.  Just imagine, and tell me it wouldnt piss you off.  What are you going to do?  Sue everyone selling your stuff?  In the real world, lawyers are expensive, and you got a mortgage and car payments. 

Face it, the games people want to play are commercially viable - because people want to play them.  It's so logical it almost makes sense.  If people want it, it's probably worth paying for.

The only romset I know of thats PD is Robby Roto, and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen anyone build a "robby roto" cabinet on these forums.  I've seen plenty of Pac Mans and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat themed ones though.  Hardly games that the copyright owners have forgotten about or abandoned.

And I'm pretty sure that the games that get played most on the average mame cab aren't the obscure "no one heard of them and nobody cares about them" titles, but probably Marvel vs Capcom, Metal Slug 3 and 4, SVC Chaos, Pac Man... you see where I'm going with this.

I'm not trying to dis people who build their own cabs, I dont believe that for personal hobbyist use IP law should get in the way (morally, legally of course has nothing to do with whats right).

But if he (foley) spends the $$ for licensing of these old games, watching other people sell it illegaly no doubt does, and should, cheese him off in a big way.  Yeah, it hurts his business.  People are acting like his taking steps to protect his business is a bad thing.

Frankly, I think eBay should cancel most of the "mame" auctions, not because of trademark issues, but because they're dopey scams.  People selling carraige bolts or cabinet locks from home depot and tagging them as "mame compatible".. Heh..

I've seen eBay auctions for modded xboxes preloaded with 100 games.  I'm sure that pisses a few people off too.

Where was I?

I guess I just dont see the justification for all the moral outrage.

Maybe we need a mame hack that only lists games nobody gives a crap about..  Roby Roto, Mahjong, and maybe some quiz/trivia games.

Sorry, but that argument is just as old as software piracy itself.  "Most games are dumb so it's ok for me to get Half Life 2 off of a torrent", or "most movies suck so it's ok for me to leech the LOTR trilogy"

[SirPoonga]

The only romset I know of thats PD is Robby Roto, and correct me if I'm wrong

gridlee

I haven't seen anyone build a "robby roto" cabinet on these forums.  I've seen plenty of Pac Mans and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat themed ones though.  Hardly games that the copyright owners have forgotten about or abandoned.

But that is different, those aren't cabinet for sale, those are cabinets that someone built for themselves.  If I build an operating system that looks, acts, generally runs like Windows XP but made it for myself is that wrong?  If I make a root beer that tastes like A&W for myself, is that wrong?  If I build something that looks and works like RandyT's up and coming LEDWiz for myself is that wrong?

But if he (foley) spends the $$ for licensing of these old games, watching other people sell it illegaly no doubt does, and should, cheese him off in a big way.  Yeah, it hurts his business.  People are acting like his taking steps to protect his business is a bad thing.

No, as I said before that isn't the problem.  We all agree that you should protect your business rights.  The problem is how he did it by trying to trademark mame for himself.  That everyone agrees was just a bad idea.

[ferrarimanf355]

I honestly think that there is some progress being made. All I can say is, keep it civil and Mr. Foley, be honest. You have the courage to come here: you now have a chance to set the record straight and improve your reputation. Don't let it get away! 

[MaximRecoil]

At the very least, this Foley guy is an extortionist (by definition; not necessarily in the legal sense). There is more about him and his actions that is objectionable but he has already 'fessed up to extortion; and apparently thinks it is something to be proud of...or something.

[quarterback]

So, you're saying Ebay would allow Foley to have auctions pulled based on a trademark that he did not own?  Wouldn't a reasonably implemented VERO require proof of trademark ownership before it would begin pulling items?

Yes and yes.  IF Mr. Foley was having auctions pulled for using the Mame logo and/or distributing mame, that he (Mr. Foley or his representatives) signed a piece of paper that said something to the effect of "Yeah, Mame is ours" and or presented "proof" that it was his.

Vero isn't going to pull Mame auctions if I ask them to.
Vero isn't going to pull bootleg copies of Star Wars if you ask them to
Vero isn't going to pull copyrighted photos if my dog asks them to

Their response to all of those situations is: If you're not the proven copyright/trademarlk/whatever owner and a VERO member, then the auction stands, go away.

In order for Vero to pull an auction, the Vero member must request it.  In order to become a Vero member you, obviously, must present some kind of evidence that you are actually the owner of said game/name/movie/logo/whatever.

If you conjure up 'proof' that you own the Star Wars Original Trilogy and you convince Vero that you are the rightful owner, then you can have them pull Star Wars auctions.  That's why I say yes to "Ebay would allow Foley to have auctions pulled based on a trademark that he did not own?"  Sure, if you present yourself as the TM owner and they believe it based on whatever info you present. and yes to "Wouldn't a reasonably implemented VERO require proof of trademark ownership before it would begin pulling items?"    I'm not sure that VERO is "resonably implemented" and I don't know what sort of evidence might have been presented.

Obviously I believe that anybody falsely presenting themselves as the owner of something that is not theirs, is a scumbag.   And no laundry list of "but I did it with good intentions" changes that.

"Action is character" and the action of falsely claiming something as your own tells me volumes about your character.

========

- advertising ability to run unlicensed games (violation of mame license agreement)
- advertising shipment with full version of mame (violation of mame license agreement)

Could you explain why Ultracade has the right to shut down auctions in violation of the MAME license agreement?

Exactly Chad. That is the question.

[paigeoliver]

If I owned a worthless piece of IP I would sell the rights to it on ebay and be done with it.

I wrote a (and never published) a D&D module in 1997, I sold the manuscript and the rights to it on ebay for $34 a couple years ago.

[RayB]

It doesn't mean they don't care per se, it just means they cant do anything about it.

[paigeoliver]

Funny you mentioned Breakout, Jobs was hired to do Breakout and then subcontracted it out to Wozniak and paid him almost nothing for it.

[rchadd]

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

[Thenasty]

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

Ditto, I think its better we get the answers from you D.F.

[Quarters]

Of course, all this means is that many cabinet builders are going to shift over to freeware games, buttloads of them. I can load a cabinet with freeware games so good that it would make any commercial multi-game look like a dog.

Few would buy it.

Freeware games no matter how good can not be the classic cabinet games of our youth. I do play shareware and other pc games on my cab but would not have built/bought one for this pupose.

[Edgedamage]

But loading a cab with shareware allows you to test drive it before you take it home.

[RayB]

The whole point of loading a cab up with freeware is so you can claim "plays thousands of games!" legally. The quality of the experience and the games themselves is irrelevant here. This scenario only applies if you are SELLING the cab. Of course to anyone building one for personal use, you're damn well gonna be using arcade ROMs...

[ChadTower]

I agree with that.  Acquiring them for your own home use is one issue.  Acquiring them to sell with hardware is another.

[Stingray]

Everyone knows that nothing produced prior to September 23 1999 is worth playing, unless it was from Nintendo.

Face it, the games people want to play are commercially viable - because people want to play them.  It's so logical it almost makes sense.  If people want it, it's probably worth paying for.

The only romset I know of thats PD is Robby Roto, and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen anyone build a "robby roto" cabinet on these forums.  I've seen plenty of Pac Mans and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat themed ones though.  Hardly games that the copyright owners have forgotten about or abandoned.

Pac Man -1980, Midway
Street Fighter- 1987, Capcom
Motrtal Kombat-1992, Midway

Hey man, you know you aren't supposed to drink Drano right?

-S

[Ken Layton]

Several local game operators in my area have pledged they will not be buying _ANY_ Ultracade products at all.

[stratjakt]

Ken, would that be because of some moral stance, or just because they know that the whole "retrogaming" fad just doesnt translate into money?

There's some sort of classics multigame machine at a local bar,  (not sure if its Ultracade or what, its not bright blue tacky ugly.. Plays Kong, Pac Man, Dig Dug)   it sits in the corner gathering dust.  I was hanging out one day when the operator came in, and I was chatting it up with him about a broken High Speed pinball in the corner..  Anyways, he was emptying the coin buckets in the pool tables, mp3 jukebox, etc while we were talking..

The last machine he went to was the classics machine, and I peeked behind the coin door when he opened it.  The coin counter was in single digits.  He proceded to remove two quarters from it.  The machine had been there forever and a day, I asked him how long he'd had it on site, he said about a year.  I asked him if the coin counter was broken, and he gloomily replied "nope".

He went on about how much money he'd sunk into these machines, and the Ms Pac/Galaga machines.. I just shrugged and said if he ever wanted to part it out I'd give him 500 for the cab (hey, it's a nice cab with a 25" monitor).  He said he figured he'd eventually part it out, and took my number.  Not a lot of collectors around here..

My point is, from an operators standpoint, these things dont seem to be able to make a dime..  Maybe that's just my area - the land of the Golden Tees and Deer Hunting games.

He wanted seven hundred gajillion dollars for the broken down high speed with the crappy playfield and cracked backglass..  I tried to tell him gajillion isnt a number but he wouldnt listen.

[Ken Layton]

Many of the operators around here are sympathetic to game collectors and want nothing to do with the Ultracade company (or the way they have treated some of you guys). These operators are running classic games still on the route and they still make money here. When was the last time you saw a Dig Dug pulling in $30 to $50 a week? Well, it's happening here.

[ChadTower]

If I were a bar person, and saw a classic machine, I'd end up pouring $5 into it.

[Stingray]

Ditto.

-S

[ferrarimanf355]

Several good points were made since my last post.

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

The hundred thousand dollar question. A simple yes or no would suffice here, and if it is indeed based off MAME, did the MAMEDevs give Ultracade their blessing?

At the very least, this Foley guy is an extortionist (by definition; not necessarily in the legal sense). There is more about him and his actions that is objectionable but he has already 'fessed up to extortion; and apparently thinks it is something to be proud of...or something.

[SirPoonga]

Several good points were made since my last post.

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

The hundred thousand dollar question. A simple yes or no would suffice here, and if it is indeed based off MAME, did the MAMEDevs give Ultracade their blessing?

Been covered before int he past.  He claims it is a custom OS and software on the ultracade.  It's only rumored he used mame.  Until someone reverse engineers it you will never really know.

[Crazy Cooter]

1- Still no response on the email correspodence with EMDKAY.

[stratjakt]

So classics do make some bucks in other areas, huh?  Maybe this guy just has a crappy route, I mean the bar I talked about is pretty much a hick bar, and Pac Man would be really confusing and high-tech to it's regulars..

The Fuddruckers around here has a Ms-Pac/Galaga, and last time I was there I noticed the joystick was broken.. So maybe it wore out from play and was just burstin with quarters, or maybe some stupid kid was swinging off of it, because parents just let their kids run wild there like it was Chuck E Cheese or something.

Oh  yeah, and in my prev post, I meant "double digits", not "single digits", because "single digits" doesnt make sense.   It was sixty-something, iirc.

Maybe being set for 50 cents a play was part of his problem.

[ChadTower]

Fifty cents is absolutely a problem.  I would not pay fifty cents to play pacman more than once.

[RayB]

Maybe being set for 50 cents a play was part of his problem.

That doesn't help. But it's also the fact that people have never heard of an Ultracade and they are less likely to bother "checking it out". But put an original game with the full on unique artwork and everything and suddenly nostaligia kicks in which makes them want to play it again for kicks.

[SirPoonga]

UltraCade machine claims: "Mentioned on The Howard Stern Radio Show
"

[Crazy Cooter]

But it's being used to promote their product in an official public release.  It's the same as you qouting me saying your machine plays 3000 games.  It doesn't.  It's not an accurate representation of the product.  Which is exactly what the problem is with people selling MAME cabinets.  They're claiming what can't be done.

[RayB]

So at what point does this thread qualify for a move to "Everything Else"?
 

[teef2]

Somehow I feel responsible for all this, having been the first to reply with a "I don't give a toss" comment.

I have no quarrell with Mr. Foley. I've formed my own opinion of his actions and it is entirely consistent with corporate attitudes throughout the world. Entirely legal but perhaps, in some peoples opinion, morally questionable. However it is obvious that most people never let their sense of morals get in the way of doing what is right (I'm quoting from Asimov here )

We all know the reality with regards to Mame and the machines that have been built. It will still happen regardless of Mr Foley or anyone else. Just let it be. The more you argue, the worse they'll become.

I can see the argument against Napster - that's someones living. But a 25 year old arcade game, one you can't even play any more in most countries. Hmmm. Unless of course it's someones living off the back of others hard work! But, that's the way of the world.

Mr. Foley is playing the system, and he's very good at it. But...  what's the limit of the market. I suspect that limit is just being found.

Anyway, what's been said has been said. I don't see any further progression in this argument. You'll only get a politicians answer, so why bother.

[Crazy Cooter]

Entirely legal but perhaps, in some peoples opinion, morally questionable.

There's nothing legal about a fraudulent document submitted to the feds.

[Edgedamage]

So at what point does this thread qualify for a move to "Everything Else"?
 

Or post hell.