UltraCade wins AMOA 2005 Innovation Award

[davidrfoley]

For Crazy Cooter and all those that keep reporting misinformation about our company, here is some official news.

http://www.ultracade.com/news/114/innovation-award-with-breeders-cup---tournament-edition

Innovation Award with Breeders' Cup - Tournament Edition
Wednesday, September 21, 2005

New Features Boost Breeders

[teef two]

So you won an award for a horse racing game. Marvellous. I can see everyone is really impressed. 
.
.
.
Woah, was that tumbleweed blowing through the thread!

[Edgedamage]

For Crazy Cooter and all those that keep reporting misinformation about our company, here is some official news.

http://www.ultracade.com/news/114/innovation-award-with-breeders-cup---tournament-edition

Innovation Award with Breeders' Cup - Tournament Edition
Wednesday, September 21, 2005

New Features Boost Breeders

[saint]

Just a reminder to everyone without specifically addressing anyone -- This is an open forum and people are free to speak their minds on their opinions here. However, such opinions should be tempered within the boundaries of the rules I've requested everyone follow in these forums. If you haven't read the rules lately (or at all), please take a moment to do so. Product discussions are open game, hate and flaming should be kept off these boards please, thanks!

--- saint

[spystyle]

This should be moved to "Everything else" as this forum is about building cabs.

[spystyle]

Also, innovation means doing something that someone hasn't done before.

From dictionary : "the act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new"

What has UltraCade done that no one has done before?

?
Craig

[pointdablame]

What has UltraCade done that no one has done before?

try to steal the Mame trademark?

 

[JoyMonkey]

How is Breeders Cup innovative? I've never played it, but I was under the impression that it was a cheap immitation of Sega's Derby Owners Club

[versapak]

What has UltraCade done that no one has done before?

try to steal the Mame trademark?

 

Kind of funny...

That is pretty much exactly what was edited OUT of spystyle's original post.

[Goz]

How is Breeders Cup innovative? I've never played it, but I was under the impression that it was a cheap immitation of Sega's Derby Owners Club

It is exactly like Derby Owners Club....

[davidrfoley]

Breeders' Cup has severl features that Sega's product does not have.  First of all, it's networked, and you can race head2head against other players from around the world in real time.  It has a world wide tournament system and a local progressive tournament system which the Sega system does not have.  It has the ability to link up to 12 systems together in one race, Sega's unit is a fixed unit.  Our system has over 20 features not found in the Sega product, and several patented technologies. 

[hypernova]

it'd be one thing if this was discovered by some third party...but to just come in here, tooting his own horn.  or in this case, tooting his own party favor-i mean, come on, it's breeders' cup.  whipdeedo..  you're not helping yourself here, sir.

a side note:  those horse games have got to be one of those games where you get bored of it pretty darned quickly.

[Goz]

No awards for the fish game?

My kid loves it.... of course I wont let him play it out of principal, but he does sneak to it whenever we go to Dave & Busters. That game seems to be inovative... small fish eats other small fishes.... fish grows.... eats bigger small fishes... eat clocks for time... Would prolly make a good drinking game for frat kids.

-Goz

[darthbane2k]

 Why do people hate this guy so much? I heard something about the mame trademark but dont know much else...

[Stingray]

Simply put, he filed for a tradmark on MAME, which he does not own nor did he have anything to do with it's development as far as I am aware. He then started firing off C&D letters to everyone making anything even remotely MAME related. When the MAME community found out they just went super-gonzo-nutso on the guy so he backed off, or so the legend goes.

But hey, congrats on your little horsey game.

-S

[ChadTower]

Guys, he posted a press release. Do any of you understand the purpose of a press release?  It is an announcement.  How else would you distribute a press release?  Quietly?

[SirPoonga]

And if you don't think a horse game would be popular go to Gameworks in Block E (across from Target Center) in downtown Minneapolis.  There's always someone on the Sega Derby machine.

So David just combined the idea of golden tee golf with horse racing games.

Simply put, he filed for a tradmark on MAME, which he does not own nor did he have anything to do with it's development as far as I am aware.

It's not that so much as he did that, but while the trademark was still in the filing process he was shutting other businesses down that used the mame name because it was trademarked.
Most people understand he just wanted to try and stop the illegal selling of mame machines and so forth since that is unfair competition for him.  However he went about stopping it in a sneaky shoddy business practice manner which is why the mame community is pissed at him.  You didn't really need a trademark to do that.

[darthbane2k]

ahhh.... VERY Sly..

[Effayy]

Guys, he posted a press release. Do any of you understand the purpose of a press release?

[ChadTower]

OTCBB?

[Havok]

Breeders' Cup has severl features that Sega's product does not have.

[Stingray]

Do any of you understand the purpose of a press release?

In this case the only purpose was a very trasparent attempt to try and convice some of us that he's not the devil. It doesn't seem to be working.

-S

[ChadTower]

Dude... all press releases are to convince try to do that.

[Effayy]

OTCBB?

Basically a stock market for smaller companies not listed on the major indexes (indices?)... A breeding ground for con men with good writing skills.

- FA

[ChadTower]

Oh, sarcasm, I get that.

There is a reason that the Press Releases are written by Public Relations people.

[Luckydevil]

I'm currently filing for a trademark on Breeder's Cup and Mr. Foley will be receiving a Cease and Decist letter from my lawyer shortly.   

[ChadTower]

I hope you send it to the people who run the event, since they also own the trademark.

[Crazy Cooter]

For Crazy Cooter...

I feel blessed.  Unloved, but blessed.

[davidrfoley]

if you check the history of the MAME situation, we worked with the MAME team, not against them.  FACTS, let's not let those cloud up this forum, that would be terrible.

[ChadTower]

eh, this forum ain't always big on them fact thingies.

[whammoed]

if you check the history of the MAME situation, we worked with the MAME team, not against them.

[davidrfoley]

We did not try to "squeeze" money out of anyone.  We own several character rights including Mr. DO!, and we have offered companies who wish to use them an opportunity to legally license them for reproduction.

We work closely with the MAME team to ensure legal use of the MAME emulation system, and proper sales of products that have only legal copies of ROMs. 

Anything else reported is misinformation.

[whammoed]

We did not try to "squeeze" money out of anyone.

[Havok]

We did not try to "squeeze" money out of anyone.

[versapak]

if you check the history of the MAME situation, we worked with the MAME team, not against them. FACTS, let's not let those cloud up this forum, that would be terrible.

Yep

You sure did. After you had ebay kill off several legitimate listings, so as to better serve yourself.


I am certainly against the sales of MAME and its roms, but your actions hurt plenty of people that were doing no such thing. Just because the word MAME was somewhere in there, you had ebay yank em, even though you didn't even have any rights what-so-ever to the name yourself.

[ChadTower]

Now, since I have dealt with Ebay's VERO program, I can say that it is certainly possible that that was a result of errors in implementing their VERO protection.  The people who run VERO are blind monkeys and could very easily have misunderstood Ultracade's instructions or simply not cared and used the brute force approach.

I'm not saying that is what happened, but it is very plausible that it was the result of bumps in the road while implementing a new process.

[Crazy Cooter]

We work closely with the MAME team to ensure legal use of the MAME emulation system, and proper sales of products that have only legal copies of ROMs.

[davidrfoley]

funny since you have never once attempted that, instead you throw accusations of wrong doing, and yet, you don't represent any of the companies that you claim have issue with us, and none of them actually do. 

You don't work for Namco.

You aren't part of the MAME team.

What is your interest?  Who do you work for?

[whammoed]

We did not try to "squeeze" money out of anyone.

[davidrfoley]

You are correct.

[Stingray]

We own several character rights including Mr. DO!

-S

[DarkKobold]

if you check the history of the MAME situation, we worked with the MAME team, not against them.

[davidrfoley]

Actually we do own the character rights, we have purchased several of them outright.

[DarkKobold]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=32730.msg276462#msg276462

Strange... You make no mention of Mr. Do in this email exchange.... I wonder how he would get it confused, doing a DIRECT COPY.

[Havok]

funny since you have never once attempted that, instead you throw accusations of wrong doing, and yet, you don't represent any of the companies that you claim have issue with us, and none of them actually do.

[ChadTower]

...though, if they are not directly involved in said injustice, no one is obligated to listen to them.

[Crazy Cooter]

What is your interest?

[Crazy Cooter]

...though, if they are not directly involved in said injustice, no one is obligated to listen to them.

Exactly. 

[davidrfoley]

Cooter, the exchange you quote is incomplete and taken out of context. 

[Crazy Cooter]

Care to elaborate?  That's what was given to us.

[Bones]

When a person feels they are innocent of false accusations usually you would expect a passionate argument from them stating their facts and/or point of view.

Given the opportunity this invitation has not been accepted and the previous replies have done nothing to inform or educate the reader.

I would have thought a person given the chance to "clear their name", if indeed not as sneaky as they claim, would grab this opportunity with both hands and shake.

This has not happenend so I for one am forced to believe all the negative propaganda I have read over the previous months.

[davidrfoley]

I've elaborated multiple times.  Read the threads.

[Crazy Cooter]

I've elaborated multiple times. Read the threads.

Huh?  You only have 20 posts.

I think there are only three threads you've participated in.  None of which have discussed emdkay AFAIK.  You say you didn't ask for a royalty, his post from that day says you did, you say it's out of context.  What are we missing?  This is a spectacular opportunity to enlighten us.  It's a very specific issue.

[davidrfoley]

what more can I say, you do not have the entire threads, and what was discussed only peices.

It's a dead subject that was resolved 8 months ago.

[paigeoliver]

Back on the topic.

Is perhaps the Breeder's Cup title a bit late? The Derby Owner's club machine at my local hangouts seems to have had a massive drop off in play over the last year and a half, even though they cut the price per credit substantially?

Of course thay could be just one location.

Mr. Foley. I also must question the decision on the joysticks I have seen in every Ultracade machine I have ever played, they favor the diagonals heavily and make many games less than enjoyable. A joystick like the Happ Super with a more normal distribution of directions would have done wonders for the product and added almost nothing to the cost. My Robotron top score at home is over a million, my Robotron top score on the nearest Ultracade is almost 200,000. The poor quality joysticks are to blame.

[davidrfoley]

Breeders' Cup is not late.  DOC is dropping off because it does not have tournaments or incentive for novice players.  You'll see Breeders' Cup for a long time to come.

We ship with a Happ Super joystick, so if the cabinet you played on doesn't have it, that means the operator didn't install it.

[DarkKobold]

The real thing is, do we expect him to say,
"Why yes, I knowingly committed a felony. I am guilty of asking for royalties for a trademark that I did not own. I am also guilty of trying to trademark a logo for a product I did not create, using artwork that I did not create."

He isn't going to admit he committed a felony, regardless of the proof we state. Really, he is a typical buisness man, who only cares about the bottom line. The only reason he went to the MAME community is because of the backlash that occurred. He knows that it would be far worse if he didn't cooperate. Lets face it, how hard would it be to join the communities to get the top websearch for Ultracade, Arcade Legends, etc, to be a boycott ultracade website on google?

He is shrewd, but we can't win by arguing on a message board. Crazy Cooter's signature is the last remaining shred of a failed boycott. Besides, your typical BW3s and "The Post" bars are not going to give half-a-rats-ass about the horrible things he has done to this community. Face it, he won.

[Bones]

A man cannot escape his history. Nothing has been won, there just hasn't been enough time elapse for karma to take its inevitable course.

[davidrfoley]

Actually, the entire world has won, because the TM is no protected under Nicola's name.  The MAME team has updated the license agreement, and pirates are now shut down.

[Rook3]

Now, since I have dealt with Ebay's VERO program, I can say that it is certainly possible that that was a result of errors in implementing their VERO protection.

I too have experienced this on several occasions. Sell a movie poster, get auction pulled because you compare the poster to others you're selling. WTF?

Sell a piece of artwork or movie prop replica, mention the name of the movie and suddenly you're accused of Keyword spamming. That one irritates me more than anything because I see hundreds of auctions listing "Item A for auction, NOT similar namebrand Item B, or C or D..."

Very annoying.

Russ
 

[Hoopz]

Actually, the entire world has won, because the TM is no protected under Nicola's name. The MAME team has updated the license agreement, and pirates are now shut down.

That will probably make the homeless and suffering because of Katrina feel better.

[davidrfoley]

Piracy is not dead, but is severely reduced on eBay.

[Harry Potter]

The MAME team has updated the license agreement, and pirates are now shut down.

No offence Dave, but that's funny.
Software pirates are like bubbles under wallpaper.

[Hoopz]

Piracy is not dead, but is severely reduced on eBay.

OUSTANDING.

[Harry Potter]

Piracy is not dead, but is severely reduced on eBay.

There are places outside of ebay. Hope you got heaps of spare time to patrol them all.

[paigeoliver]

Ok, well I am happy to hear they are coming with Supers, every machine I have played has had Ultimate's installed and they are terrible for most styles of games.

[emdkay]

Cooter, the exchange you quote is incomplete and taken out of context. 

There seems to be some [more] misinformation spewing out of the mouth of Foley, I'll clarify:

The email quotes I posted in the original thread (remember, when you tried to steal the Mame trademark and claim it as your own) were VERBATIM.  I posted our email correspondence word for word - even against the advice of others.  The only thing I omitted was the price of some of my materials I sent to you (which I completely made-up anyway).  That was before I realized the shrew that you really are. 

You did request that I pay you royalties.  I don't see how any rational person could misunderstand what you had stated. 

Also, your press releases and awards mean nothing to anybody in the arcade community.  You are well known as a scrupulous and conniving monster.  It doesn't matter which awards your company receives.  You can put a bowtie on a turd, it's still crap underneath.  You should be ashamed of yourself. 

[davidrfoley]

I'm very proud of my company and EVERYTHING that we have ever done, if you don't like it, too bad.

[emdkay]

I'm very proud of my company and EVERYTHING that we have ever done, if you don't like it, too bad.

Do you care to reply about the issue about these emails that you state were out of context?  I posted them word for word.  Let's see your side. 

(I'm sure you'll think twice about where you post these worthless press releases next time)

[davidrfoley]

You did not post them word for word, you left out several messages from the discussion.

[Bones]

Do you care to reply about the issue about these emails that you state were out of context?

[davidrfoley]

No one wishes to discuss or to listen, instead they just want to spout how we tried to steal something, and it is simply not true.

We used legal tactics to stop the piracy, and it worked.  Bottom line. 

If people wish to think otherwise, reality shows you different.  We have an open line with the MAME team.  We put stop to piracy on a daily basis.  We enforce our character and game rights.

[SirPoonga]

if you check the history of the MAME situation, we worked with the MAME team, not against them.  FACTS, let's not let those cloud up this forum, that would be terrible.

Where, before that quote, did we say you were against the mame team?

We used legal tactics to stop the piracy, and it worked.  Bottom line.

Shutting auctions down by claiming you trademarked something that isn't trademarked is legal?  Especially when it involves shutting down legitimate auctions that only mentioned the word mame and weren't selling anything illegal or piracy involved?

No one is disputing the fact that you shut down illegal auctions, that is a good thing.

We enforce our character and game rights.

Which is fine because they are your characters and game rights.  But when you try to enforce something that isn't yours...

[Bones]

I see, now I understand completely.

Those who put their own case forward do so but only with the use of fabricated emails which you claim are incomplete and instantly dismiss.

Everything you have done has been nothing short of altruistic and everyone who has challenged you is wrong or short sighted or just plain doesn't listen.

I am done here, I see no point in continuing.

[davidrfoley]

ebay Doesn't allow anyone to shut down anything unless they have documented proof of ownership.  We have filed all of our copyrights, trademarks, and license agreements with VeRo.  Any and all auctions shut down by us are due to violation of our rights, period.

[davidrfoley]

Broken Bones, that was my point, this thread is 8 months old and useless.  Let's move forward.

[SirPoonga]

ebay Doesn't allow anyone to shut down anything unless they have documented proof of ownership.  We have filed all of our copyrights, trademarks, and license agreements with VeRo.  Any and all auctions shut down by us are due to violation of our rights, period.

Well, I hate to keep this going but Vero is known to just shut things down because someone said it was illegal.    That's been proven many times, not just in this community but others too.  Someone could claim they have a trademark to something and Vero will shut down.  If you did have a trademark for mame you could have shut those auctions down.  But since you didn't, only pending, there was no right.

Let's move forward.

True that.  But people are going to look at your past if they want to buy anything in the future...

[markrvp]

Mr. Foley:

Someone posted a link to a vendor who claimed on their site that the Ultracade machines have been discontinued.  Is this correct?

[davidrfoley]

Actually VeRo won't shut anything down without substantial proof.  Believe me, we have a person whose full time job is monitoring eBay and other websites for pirated items.   They require paperwork from us before they will shut anything down.

[MaximRecoil]

Shutting auctions down by claiming you trademarked something that isn't trademarked is legal?

[SirPoonga]

See, and that is what confuses me.  There's been plenty of proof that Ultracade had auctions shutdown only claiming the mame trademark and not any other rights.  And since mame is not trademarked yet how could Vero do that?  So is david trying to say it's Vero faults since they didn't realize it wasn't a trademark completely yet?

[whammoed]

See, and that is what comfuses me.

[SirPoonga]

Right.  It really isn't worth discussing anymore because people here have already made their opinions since the proof of wrong doing has been presented many times without reason to believe the proof was incorrect.  And so far I haven't seen proof otherwise, more of just claims.

[SirPoonga]

Mr. Foley:

Someone posted a link to a vendor who claimed on their site that the Ultracade machines have been discontinued.  Is this correct?

http://www.bmigaming.com/ultracade.htm

Why would BMI lie?

[SirPoonga]

Foley, I do like your sense of humor though.  I love your tagline

[davidrfoley]

Maxim you are spreading false information.  How can we have an intelligent dialog when people are making claims for me that are simply not true.

[Goz]

Isn't it ironic that the 'Evil Corporate Overlord' is the victim?

Maybe your not quite the overlord you want to be.... 

-Goz

[MaximRecoil]

See, and that is what confuses me.

[MaximRecoil]

Maxim you are spreading false information.

[SirPoonga]

Maxim you are spreading false information.  How can we have an intelligent dialog when people are making claims for me that are simply not true.

But since Maxim was quoting me that is an indirect way of saying I am not stating facts?

Well, that many page thread that was linked has plenty of proof.  If you claim that it isn't factual we need to see proof that it isn't factual.  Otherwise we have to take them at face value, which is they are presented to us as fact.

Like I said, I have yet to see proof otherwise, only claims.

I could claim I am the king of france, hopefully you believe that without me prooving it

[davidrfoley]

Maxim is making claims of statements, stating that they are things that I said and did, and they are simply not true.  How can that be fact. 

Contact eBay.  All auctions that were shut down were illegal items for which the seller did not have rights to sell or was in violation of a VeRo owners rights.  We shut down any and all auctions to which the seller was violating the law.  PERIOD.

[Edgedamage]

PIRACY ALEART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Illegal auction taking place Mame word being used!!!
Link 1 shortened by saint

Link 2 shortened by saint

Link three shortened by saint

[SirPoonga]

Contact eBay.  All auctions that were shut down were illegal items for which the seller did not have rights to sell or was in violation of a VeRo owners rights.  We shut down any and all auctions to which the seller was violating the law.  PERIOD.

Ok, so the ones that got shutdown soley on the basis that mame was "trademarked" was in violation? 

The whole contact ebay has already been done, 8 months ago and proof of that has been set.  See linked thread.

Ok, answer me this, I will ask the question straight forward instead of tip toeing around..  Were auctions being shut down by you (or at request by you through vero) where they only had mame, no other copyrighted, trademarked property of yours?  If you say no than how come people have proven this to be the case?

[MaximRecoil]

Maxim is making claims of statements, stating that they are things that I said and did, and they are simply not true.

[Thenasty]

finally, we got FOLEY's attention...Here is my advice....
Stop stealing someones work.....or at least you tried to...

Give it up, you will never get anyone here to buy any of your product, or at least not me....

You belly up before (by some other company name, don't remember), now you bellying up again, and your trying to get some sells from this forum by advertising(I think). My (our) home built machine are better than yours hehehe.....and it cost less

[SirPoonga]

finally, we got FOLEY's attention...Here is my advice...

That's why me others are interested.  This is really the first time david foley has talked about the issue.  But he is answering just like a CEO would, vague answers without him giving direct answers.  Actually, the answers more remind me of a polition that gives the same answer to everything but doesn't realy answer the question.

If we call Vero they aren't going to give us the details.  Tehy will just say the auctions were pulled because it violated something.  That doesn't mean it was right.  Since we have seen proof that they were pulled because mame was allegedly trademarked we know that isn't right.

I'm just looking for a direct answer.  But apparently no one is willing to give it.  And because of that I don't think we know.

[davidrfoley]

This is certainly not the first time I have talked about this.  I posted over 3,000 responses back when this took place.  This has long since been resolved.  I replied to each and every email and thread at the time. 

If you have specific questions, ask them.  Stop playing games.  I didn't steal anything. 

I'll say it one more time.  The MAME team did not respond to our requests to stop the illegal distribution of MAME on commerical products.  They did not enforce thier trademark, nor thier license agreement.  We took steps to ensure that the TM was enforced and that commerical distribution of MAME was only with a licensed ROMs. 

Many people don't agree with the methods we used, but frankly I don't care if they do or not, it was the legal methods that were available to us and we used them and we achieved the desired results. 

Let's stop arguing over our methods, if you don't like them it doesn't matter, we did what we did.  The MAME team now has a very precise license agreement for distribution of the code, and they have the trademark, and they enforce it.

If there is something of substance to discuss, I will discuss it, but I am not going to continually go around in circles on this issue, it's a waste of time on everyone's part.

[Thenasty]

Is this really even the real David Foley?

[emdkay]

Many people don't agree with the methods we used, but frankly I don't care if they do or not, it was the legal methods that were available to us and we used them and we achieved the desired results. 

I know you're stubborn as they come, but maybe you should care.  You are severely loathed in this community for your despicable actions.  You're a terrible person and you don't even care.  That says a lot about your character. 

Oh yea, and whenever you can post the rest of those email messages between us that you say I left out, I'd love to see them.  No time is better than now to disprove me.  You've got everyone's attention. 

[ferrarimanf355]

Woah, woah, woah. Can't we all just get along here?
I understand what's going on here- I've been following this whole brouhaha since it began- but I think the lesson to be learned here is that everyone makes mistakes. Nobody's perfect. I'm pretty certain that Mr. Foley knows that he made a mistake, and that he learned from it. If he didn't learn from his mistakes, he probably wouldn't be collabirating with the Visual Pinball developers on his multi-game pinball table. We all make mistakes, and the best people learn from those mistakes and move on. I, for one, am eagerly anticipating more information about iRoms, and the USB Light Gun kit, for they have massive potential. iRoms, in particular, can make those classic arcade compilations obsolete if done right. It could be a great success. We just need some faith, that's all.

[MaximRecoil]

I'll say it one more time.

[CheffoJeffo]

Whoa ... there's a whole lot of folks 'online' in this thread ...

Some explanation as to the type of action that was taken against emdkay was what I was asking for in the other UltraCade thread. I was hoping that, at some point, we would get some sort of meaningful response.

Those actions, in particular, are the ones that are keeping people from "moving on" or "letting go" ... please Corporate Overlord, either address them directly (which you have not done) or simply state that you won't address them ... don't say that this has all been dealt with ... *this* hasn't.

Cheers.

EDIT: I should mention that the reason I find this so important is that I recall the letter posted on your site saying specifically that you weren't going after hobbyists, but it seems from your e-mails with emdkay that you did exactly that (and, after all, this is a community of hobbyists which includes emdkay ... you went after one of us) and under somewhat misleading pretences..

[ferrarimanf355]

Whoa ... there's a whole lot of folks 'online' in this thread ...

Some explanation as to the type of action that was taken against emdkay was what I was asking for in the other UltraCade thread. I was hoping that, at some point, we would get some sort of meaningful response.

Those actions, in particular, are the ones that are keeping people from "moving on" or "letting go" ... please Corporate Overlord, either address them directly (which you have not done) or simply state that you won't address them ... don't say that this has all been dealt with ... *this* hasn't.

Cheers.

Even though I've been keeping up with this controversy, I do think that coming clean with everything and issuing apologies to everyone involved will go a long way to help build trust amongst us BYOAC'ers. Mr. Foley, hear me out and give this guy the whole story. Address all concerns and don't dodge questions. Please. It would help build trust and show to us BYOAC'ers that you have indeed learned from your mistakes.

[Hoopz]

Whoa ... there's a whole lot of folks 'online' in this thread ...

Some explanation as to the type of action that was taken against emdkay was what I was asking for in the other UltraCade thread. I was hoping that, at some point, we would get some sort of meaningful response.

Those actions, in particular, are the ones that are keeping people from "moving on" or "letting go" ... please Corporate Overlord, either address them directly (which you have not done) or simply state that you won't address them ... don't say that this has all been dealt with ... *this* hasn't.

Cheers.

Even though I've been keeping up with this controversy, I do think that coming clean with everything and issuing apologies to everyone involved will go a long way to help build trust amongst us BYOAC'ers. Mr. Foley, hear me out and give this guy the whole story. Address all concerns and don't dodge questions. Please. It would help build trust and show to us BYOAC'ers that you have indeed learned from your mistakes.

It won't happen.  In his mind, he thinks everything is fine, that nothing is left to be answered, and that we, the potential consumers, are wrong.  As SirP said, he is acting like a corp CEO, which he is, and does not understand the situation.  There have been multiple questions asked in this and other threads, that he is selectively choosing not to answer.

Davie, spin it however you want, but by your actions, statements, and failure to answer very specific questions, while sticking to your corp. mantra speaks volumes greater than anything else.   Your lack of understanding of the issues and perspectives being conveyed is a problem. 

[RayB]

***Can I be the voice of reason here?***

To all BYOAC members: There is no sense in continuing this "discussion". You're not going to get any admissions from Foley other than what he has already said.

To David R. Foley: It makes absolutely no sense for a company's leader to be in here posting anything regarding the matters discussed here. You're not helping yourself. You're not convincing anyone either. Just as they aren't convincing you contrary to your opinion. Do you have a lawyer? If I were a lawyer I'd be advising you to just shut up and stay off the radar here. Don't you realize you affected many businesses who were making legitimate uses of a public domain logo?


So to all again: I see this entire thread as pointless. It's like trying to get Bush to admit Iraq was a mistake. It just won't happen. And the best thing would be for Foley to just ignore this site and work on bettering his PR.

[davidrfoley]

I haven't dodged questions and I have nothing to apologize for.  If people are upset about how I handled the MAME TM issue, then I'm sorry, but I did what I had to do to protect my business.  I pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in royalties to publishers for the right to sell their games, and I will do whatever is necessary to protect that investment.  People that do not play on a level playing field will be pursued and made to stop pirating games, plain and simple.

If we want to have a useful discussion that is fine, and I'm willing to do that.  I have no interest in continuing to argue about the MAME trademark situation.  There is no denying what took place, and I am never going to convince people what my motives or methods were, and quite frankly I don't care if I do.

The MAME TM issue is behind us, and it was resolved quickly and directly with the MAME team, and it has absolutely no impact on this forum or its members. 

I'm willing to discuss current topics, but I'm not going to spend more time going back and forth.  The MAME team doesn't have an issue with me, and that is all that really matters.  We communicate on a regular basis.

[CheffoJeffo]

Even though I've been keeping up with this controversy, I do think that coming clean with everything and issuing apologies to everyone involved will go a long way to help build trust amongst us BYOAC'ers.

It would ... I can accept that UltraCade and the MAME Devs get along fine ... since MAME is their creation, I consider that issue closed. I didn't like the tactics and absolutely feel that there must have been a much better way to handle it.

What I have a problem with is that folks like emdkay and DreamArcades were either affected through pulled auctions or suffered what appears to be direct extortion. From what I can tell, neither were doing anything wrong (IIRC, DA was reselling properly licensed ROMS) and the effects that UltraCade's actions had on them are simply being ignored by Mr. Foley.

And that's not good enough for me ... I *want* a decent gun option for emulation or multi-game machines (keep quiet all you GunCon zealots!) and I *want* access to reasonably priced legal ROMS ... but I can't bring myself to hand money over to Mr. Foley without him providing some reasonable explanation for these particular actions, which were directed squarely at this community (I think the Evil Overlord misses the importance of this last point).

Sorry, Evil Overlord ... I'm trying ... can you see your way clear to helping me out on this

Cheers.

[RayB]

You're being very naive Cheffo.

[CheffoJeffo]

You're being very naive Cheffo.

I'm Canadian ... what do you expect ?

I was actually trying to be subtle and give the man a chance.

Chance Over.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

The MAME TM issue is behind us, and it was resolved quickly and directly with the MAME team, and it has absolutely no impact on this forum or its members. 

My dear Evil Overlord, THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT ... your actions DID have a direct impact on members of this forum. You said that you weren't going after the hobbyists (ref: your letter on your site), then you did, specifically including members of this community.

Going after emdkay didn't help you in anyway with the MAMEDevs, so why did you do it ?

THAT is what many of us are looking for answers to ... if you had read the various threads in this forum at that time, you would know what we are upset about. You say earlier in this thread that you responded to every posting and e-mail ... not sure how you could have managed that since you only registered in June.

At the end of this day, I do see one good thing coming out of these threads ... I think Stingray, ChadTower and schmokes all agreed on something ...

Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

***Can I be the voice of reason here?***

Now who's being naive ?

 

Cheers for 500 posts ... good night all.

[SirPoonga]

I am trying to provide meaningful conversation but I am not getting meaningful answers.

The MAME TM issue is behind us, and it was resolved quickly and directly with the MAME team, and it has absolutely no impact on this forum or its members.

It's behind you but never really got answered here, so it does affect here.

Your past reflects who you are, so it does matter.  It's like saying to a serial killer he can have a job at a gun, chainsaw, and knife factory.  Do you really want to ignore the past then?  No, I am not saying you are like a serial killer, just stating that the past is important in representing your company.

So what does your past say from the point of view of what we have seen here?
Your past says you claimed trademark for mame that wasn't yours.  So one would ask today what else do you claim is yours but really isn't?  Now you see why your past is important.  People are going to judge you based on that and whether or not they want to buy your products.

I haven't dodged questions and I have nothing to apologize for.  If people are upset about how I handled the MAME TM issue, then I'm sorry, but I did what I had to do to protect my business.  I pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in royalties to publishers for the right to sell their games, and I will do whatever is necessary to protect that investment.  People that do not play on a level playing field will be pursued and made to stop pirating games, plain and simple.

I'm sure we all agree that you have the right to protect your business.  You did shut down auctions that were illegal and definately unfair as they were selling roms.  But how does shutting down an auction for a pair of joysticks (I was watching one at the time) that put mame in the title affect your royalties to publishers?  I wish ebay would save bookmarks for a longer period of time, I could prove this.
I can understand if an auction was selling a cd full of roms, but then you don't need to use the excuse you trademarked mame for that.
Then there were auctions like DreamArcade's where he was selling a cabinet with legal roms.  He had written proof from StarRoms that it was legit.  His website even said they were legit from StarRoms.
I understand if you pulled emdkay's auction if the marquee had one of your characters on it, that's fine.  But ones that said Mame when the the trademark was pending under your name?  How does that affect your royalties?
That's the questions that haven't been answered on this forum.  You may have answered them elsewhere, if so then link?
So as you say "There is no denying what took place", but since there hasn't been conversation with you on this site about it we may not know what all took place.
I'm not concerned too much with how you tried to get rid of the unfair competition as much as what happened with the mistakes because that is an indicator on how the business operates.

This is certainly not the first time I have talked about this.  I posted over 3,000 responses back when this took place.  This has long since been resolved.  I replied to each and every email and thread at the time.

Not here, that was my point.  I'd love to see the 3000 responses on other forums (since you only have 30 here) if someone wanted to provide links.



Ok, if you don't want to dwell on the past I have some questions about this AHOA/Breeders' thing.   Now I am curious.  Why was this award posted here?  This is a group of DIYers with not to many arcade/business owners.  Would a home user find this affordable and want to buy it?
Is there a PC version or plans for one?  Like Hyperbowl, I'd love a full machine but no room and can not afford a $23k unit, so the $13 pc version will have to do
I can not find pricing info for the product, is there a reason it isn't in your online store?

From a home consumer point of view. 
I was on your website, in the home consumer section (arcade legends since ultracade is not in the home consumer section).  What would interest people here is if they already have a cabinet what would it take to get a game pack working?  If you have to buy an arcade legends cabinet to do that then your only market here is people that don't have a cabinet yet.

If for some reason I can use an existing cabinet, can a 100 game setup beat a cheap PC that is needed to run Midway's collections and Atari's 80 game collection you can pick up at Best Buy along with the atari games from StarRoms?
For a PC that has the specs needed and the software it would be under $200.
Most of the games in your game packs (I see two that contain "normal" arcade games, one midway, one sports, I am not including the laser disc or casino games) are available in the above mentioned collections.  And, going through the readme's in the midway collection the games are emulated from arcade..
What would interest this crowd more is how to access legal games affordably without a machine since many of us already have a cabinet.

I know you are thinking of the iRom thing, any word on that?

If you don't want to answer any of that I will leave it be from now on and hope you do come out with something cool that is markettable to this community.

[rchadd]

Is this really even the real David Foley?

[Thenasty]

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator?

Man this is gonna be good if he did not write his own. He probably took some of MAME source, I read somewhere that someone was trying to crack it and see if there was any MAME source in it........Talk about STEALING someones work.....

[Edgedamage]

Jeez if the xbox/ps2/psp/ can be cracked it should take 5min to crack what is probably a low budget motherboard with a pci controller card that takes over the board as soon as post is finished. This trick has been done before with motherboards look at the older touch screen quiz machines they were 386sx systems with two pci boards one took control of the motherboard and the other had all the Roms on it with the system software. Hiding a PC motherboard in a system is easy if the BIOS displays some cheesy company name/logo while post is going on in the background.

[RayB]

Guys, what good is it to write inflamatory hypothetical comments like these? It's not that hard to write an emulator. (No, I haven't written one, but I've worked with someone who has. Just check out www.RetroFX.com). There are core CPU emulators available for license out there already (Z80, 65XX, 68XXX, etc) so all a coder needs to do is build on that, figure out video mapping, etc.

Sirponga:
Regarding $200 as the price point for hardware and roms. Are you talking about using a 486? Let's be realistic. If you're marketing a new item, with warranty and tech support on it, you're going to use TODAY'S available hardware, even if it's overkill.

[menace]

I haven't dodged questions and I have nothing to apologize for.

Mr. foley please post the entire conversation between yourself and emdkay.  You say it was out of context-- prove it.  You have dodged this request several times--its time to sh!t or get of the pot.

[ChadTower]

Well, I hate to keep this going but Vero is known to just shut things down because someone said it was illegal.

[ChadTower]

See, and that is what confuses me.

[Edgedamage]

Well, I hate to keep this going but Vero is known to just shut things down because someone said it was illegal.    That's been proven many times, not just in this community but others too.  Someone could claim they have a trademark to something and Vero will shut down.  If you did have a trademark for mame you could have shut those auctions down.  But since you didn't, only pending, there was no right.

Well then don't you think that is a problem with the VERO program and its implementation?

Not that I'm on Foley's side here, but damn, too many people are ignoring some very plausible scenarios for ways things were done improperly but not necessarily maliciously.  When things like this happen, a bit of incompetence can go a long way to screwing up the whole process.

[Edgedamage]

As much as i don't like DF's actions we should keep something in mind. Microsoft in the 90's would threaten retailers by saying "if you don't give our products such and such floor space we will pull our products from your retail chain" We say DF claims rights to things he does not own. But early versions of windows was biased on some code from apple. Which they said was their own.  But posting about the AMOA award here is the same as getting a group of kids sent to detention and then walking past the door and giving them the finger. But as we all know press bad or good is still press. It gets you noticed.

[ChadTower]

Microsoft in the 90's would threaten retailers by saying "if you don't give our products such and such floor space we will pull our products from your retail chain"

That's just part of the distribution contract.  All manufacturers with enough clout do that.  When I worked at Kodak we specifically made Staples, CompUSA, BestBuy, etc agree to have our digital products on specific positions on the shelves as well as a separate, prominent demo display directly on the main aisle.  It's not illegal, it's a negotiating leverage point.

[Edgedamage]

But it could be seen as bullying. Like DF is seen as bullying.

[ChadTower]

Gee, business is tough.  Maybe we should all make a living outside of the business world.

[SirPoonga]

Guys, what good is it to write inflamatory hypothetical comments like these? It's not that hard to write an emulator. (No, I haven't written one, but I've worked with someone who has. Just check out www.RetroFX.com). There are core CPU emulators available for license out there already (Z80, 65XX, 68XXX, etc) so all a coder needs to do is build on that, figure out video mapping, etc.

Sirponga:
Regarding $200 as the price point for hardware and roms. Are you talking about using a 486? Let's be realistic. If you're marketing a new item, with warranty and tech support on it, you're going to use TODAY'S available hardware, even if it's overkill.

I am talking about today's hardware.  You can get an econo-pc from a retailer, which will be like a 1Ghz machine, for less than $150.  Remember, that would be without monitor because most likely your cabinet will have a monitor.  Then you can find the midway and atari games for cheap at best buy.  Now, it won't be a national known name likeDell, something more like a local retailer.

Are you sure ultracade had auctions shut down in this way?  Have we looked into the internal implementation of VERO?  Is it possible, and I believe it is, that you send your paperwork in to Ebay and they Ebay is responsible for much of the shutdowns?  If they are responsible for choosing auctions that they believe in violation of your VERO rights, could they shut down auctions that are ambiguous, or only border on being in violation?  It is very plausible that Ebay chooses to err on the side of caution and shuts down anything that looks like it is in violation.  That would certainly be in line with Ebay's history of making corporate rights higher than user rights.

OK, I see your point and I am sure that happens to.  Like the joystick incident I was watching was probably due to that.
However the emails that have been quoted in the huge thread, like DreamArcade's. signed Ultracade.

But I realize the answer isn't going to make a difference, people already have their opinion of ultracade.

So, onto current times... 

[ChadTower]

OK, I see your point and I am sure that happens to.

[RayB]

This whole thing ties strongly into why I can't stand much of the MAME userbase.

[ChadTower]

Exactly, and if they all would STFU, they might realize all that would happen is that development and distribution would go underground.

[quarterback]

Are you sure ultracade had auctions shut down in this way?

[ChadTower]

So, you're saying Ebay would allow Foley to have auctions pulled based on a trademark that he did not own?  Wouldn't a reasonably implemented VERO require proof of trademark ownership before it would begin pulling items?

[Edgedamage]

Gee, business is tough.  Maybe we should all make a living outside of the business world.

Wow you took that wrong. I meant why attack DF when every other business does the same. Also who cares if all the rom sites disappear everyone here probally has all the roms they will ever need. As for marquees anyone building a cab makes there own just go to Kinko's. So again who cares if marquee sites are shut down.

[SirPoonga]

Here's the real issue no one will admit to: It's the fear that MAME gets shut down, and access to ROMs gets completely wiped out. That's their stake in it. They want their free arcade games. (I'm not defending them; I just think this is the crux of why everyone gets so hot under the collar about it.)

No, that's not it.  That issue has already been taken care of.  Mame is not going to be shut down as the trademark issue is already over.  It's been proven in court emulation is legal..

The issue is if ultracade is going to post information about their products here, which I assume is in hopes of selling the products here, then we need to know due to the past if the company can be trusted.
Otherwise what's the point of posting PR information here?

[davidrfoley]

All MAME auctions that have been shut down were illegal in one way or another.  They met one of the following criteria:

- advertising unlicensed games that ship with the cabinet (copyright and tm violation)
- advertising using screen shots of unlicensed games (copyright violation)
- advertising showing cabinet artwork with unlicnesed characters or game logos (copyright and tm violation)
- advertising ability to run unlicensed games (violation of mame license agreement)
- advertising shipment with full version of mame (violation of mame license agreement)

No legitimate auctions were shut down.

[ChadTower]

- advertising ability to run unlicensed games (violation of mame license agreement)
- advertising shipment with full version of mame (violation of mame license agreement)

Could you explain why Ultracade has the right to shut down auctions in violation of the MAME license agreement?

[markrvp]

The question the people on this thread would like answered Mr. Foley is which of the above criterian applied to the emdkay auctions?

[davidrfoley]

we shut down hundreds of auctions a week.  Show me the auction and we can tell you what it violated.

[Stingray]

we shut down hundreds of auctions a week.

What a swell fella.

-S

[SirPoonga]

The question the people on this thread would like answered Mr. Foley is which of the above criterian applied to the emdkay auctions?

If emdkay used a license character that's fine for shutting those down.  But he also had marquees that only said mame, and at the time mame was not trademarked so it didn't fall under any of those criteria.
And DreamArcade had licensed games from StarRoms.

And with all those criteria you don't need to try and trademark mame in order do that.

[davidrfoley]

Stingray, try and understand IP rights.   Suppose you wrote a song, and pressed it on a CD and sold the CD.  Then, you found someone who had copied your CD, and was selling bootlegs of it on eBay.  You'd probably feel as though they were stealing from you. 

People that do not own, and do not license video games, video game characters, or video game names, and then sell products based on them are stealing. 

UltraCade Technologies has either purchased or licensed the right to use the games and characters, and we have the right to stop those that don't, in fact, in many of our contracts we are required to stop those that don't.

If you look at many of the MAME cabinet sellers, or graphics reproduction sellers, they use characters such as Mr. DO!, Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, and others on the graphics treatments.  None of these graphics are licensed, and therefore the product is illegal. 

[davidrfoley]

until very recently, Dream Arcades was using unlicensed characters on their cabinets.

[Stingray]

Stingray, try and understand IP rights.   Suppose you wrote a song, and pressed it on a CD and sold the CD.  Then, you found someone who had copied your CD, and was selling bootlegs of it on eBay.  You'd probably feel as though they were stealing from you.

I understand IP rights. Please don't patronise me. I'm totally on the side of the legitimate owners of IP being compensated for their work. I'm sure a search of these forums will back up this claim.  Your analogy is all wrong anyway. You didn't develop MAME, you didn't design the logo. You did see that there was a chance to steal those things, but you didn't get away with it. Preach to me about IP rights indeed!

-S

[davidrfoley]

Stingray, nothing on eBay was selling simply MAME, all of the auctions were selling products using MAME AND other items.  No one sells the emulator by itself, they sell products based on the emulator.  Many of those people violate our IP rights, and we put a stop to it.

[Thenasty]

You didn't develop MAME, you didn't design the logo. You did see that there was a chance to steal those things, but you didn't get away with it. Preach to me about IP rights indeed!

-S

Once a Snake will always be a Snake.

[Stingray]

Stingray, nothing on eBay was selling simply MAME, all of the auctions were selling products using MAME AND other items.  No one sells the emulator by itself, they sell products based on the emulator.  Many of those people violate our IP rights, and we put a stop to it.

And how does this make it your resposibility to register the trademark in your own name, even after by your own admission, you tried many times to email the MAME team on the subject and they clearly expressed no interest in playing your game. Sure the TM is in the hands of the correct people now, but that's only because you instigated the entire mess. Left to their own devices, the MAME team would probebly never have registered the trademark. Make all the claims you like about how you were just protecting MAME, nobody is buying that story and you had no reason to fool around with someone elses IP.

-S

[davidrfoley]

stolen property is stolen property.

[davidrfoley]

Had someone else come along, and filed a TM on MAME, the MAME team would no longer own it.  Had I wished to keep the TM, I could have said nothing and the USPTO would have issued the TM without a single person knowing about it.

[emdkay]

Had someone else come along, and filed a TM on MAME, the MAME team would no longer own it.  Had I wished to keep the TM, I could have said nothing and the USPTO would have issued the TM without a single person knowing about it.

But you did say nothing.  You tried to steal the Mame TM, but somebody blew the whistle on you.  That's how you failed. 

It's laughable that you try to speak of IP rights when you are guilty of attempted IP theft - such a hypocrite.

I'm also waiting for that email dialoge between us that you stated has been out of context, with messages missing.  Or, just choose to selectively not respond to that and continue to admit guilt.

[ChadTower]

And how does this make it your resposibility to register the trademark in your own name, even after by your own admission, you tried many times to email the MAME team on the subject and they clearly expressed no interest in playing your game. Sure the TM is in the hands of the correct people now, but that's only because you instigated the entire mess. Left to their own devices, the MAME team would probebly never have registered the trademark. Make all the claims you like about how you were just protecting MAME, nobody is buying that story and you had no reason to fool around with someone elses IP.

It appears to have been an unforunately, but necessarily, circuitous method of putting a stop to competitors by forcing the MAME team to enforce their own IP.

[ferrarimanf355]

Okay, everybody calm down and take a deep breath. To the BYOAC community, I once again reiterate that everyone makes mistakes, and that the best people learn from them. After all, that which does not kill me can only make me stronger, right?

Mr. Foley, I can see where you're going here, and I understand your motives, but I urge you to be honest and forthright with everybody here, so you can build up your trust. Once you do that, everything else will fall into place, and everybody's a winner. After all, honesty is the best policy, right?

[davidrfoley]

Ferrari I agree and have tried to say let's move on.

As for "blowing the whistle" that simply did not happen.   I blew the whistle myself.  As I have tried to state, if I was looking to own the TM, I would right now, as I would not have mentioned a thing until it was issued at which point it would be mine.  Instead, as others have pointed out, I made mention of the TM so that the MAME team could properly protect it.  I even went as far as to offer to pay for the legal fees to ensure that it was in Nicola's name.  I'm sorry if people don't like the tactics we used, but we were left with no alternative.  We had a choice of sitting back and watching others take MAME, toss it into a cabinet, take unlicensed games, and characters and make money doing what we were doing, but without paying the royalties to the rights owners. 

What everyone fails to understand is that this has nothing to do with MAME itself.  MAME is simply a vehicle which has allowed people who didn't have the technical resources, to quickly and cheaply make products that compete with our products.  Its sort of analogous to the MP3 music problems.  The RIAA didn't go after the makers of MP3 players such as WinAMP, they went after those that copied the music without paying for it.  There is no RIAA for video games, and therefore we are left to defend our rights ourselves.  We will use whatever legal means are available to us.

What I don't understand is how people in this forum can be so quick to defend others who are profiting from MAME, and accuse us of wrong doing when we try to stop others who are running illegal business selling items based on someone Else's work.  Everyone seems to criticize us for trying to defend our rights, and back individuals and companies who do the EXACT thing that we are being crucified for.  How is it that companies that download MAME, download characters, download games, put them into a package and sell them should be defended?  They didn't create any of the work.  They didn't pay the owners for the works.  They simply turn them around and sell them, and somehow they are defended here on this forum as though they are doing something right.

[ChadTower]

Now, the one reasonable question I have about your strategy to protect yourself from unlicensed competition...

...if the MAME team felt no need to establish a trademark, or to protect their IP, was it right to force them against their will?  It clearly was in your best interest, but was it in theirs?

[davidrfoley]

Chad, I would have to say yes, because if I had not done it someone else could have and then they would have lost the TM rights.  I've also helped them to strongly establish the legitimate distribution of MAME based product, and they are now clearly seperated from those that pirate games.  I'm sure it can be argued, but I believe it was in thier own best interest. 

Just because my commercial interest was served doesn't mean that theirs couldnt' be as well, there is such a thing as win win.

[Grasshopper]

Had someone else come along, and filed a TM on MAME, the MAME team would no longer own it.  Had I wished to keep the TM, I could have said nothing and the USPTO would have issued the TM without a single person knowing about it.

Maybe, but as soon as you tried to prosecute someone for infringing your TM rights you'd be laughed out of court. I mean it's laughably easy to prove that the MAME logo has already been in use for many years and that your company has no genuine connection with the trademark. In any case many of the organisations making reference to MAME in their literature (but not I might add necessarily selling anything illegal) are based outside the US and therefore not subject to US trademark laws.

Mr Foley, one thing that I find curious about this whole affair is how you managed to get the mamedevs to co-operate with you. I mean if I was involved in a public domain project and a commercial organisation came along and said we've taken the liberty of enforcing your TM for you so we can use it to protect our commercial interests I'd tell them to swivel. I can only conclude that the mamedevs were either threatened with legal sanctions or paid off. Would you care to enlighten us as to what really happened?

[SirPoonga]

I'm sorry if people don't like the tactics we used, but we were left with no alternative. We had a choice of sitting back and watching others take MAME, toss it into a cabinet, take unlicensed games, and characters and make money doing what we were doing, but without paying the royalties to the rights owners.

Then answer this one question.  Why did you need to try to trademark mame to do this?  Do you not have proof that games were unlicensed?  Because the mame name is not needed to shutdown an auction with unlicensed games and characters.  If someone had an auction with Mr. DO! on it couldn't you just use your trademark to shut it down instead of trying to trademark mame?

What I don't understand is how people in this forum can be so quick to defend others who are profiting from MAME

No one is defending that, the people here are against selling illegal games and you keep trying to make that the issue by bringing it up.  If someone is trying to defend emdkay or DreamArcades it is probably because they didn't know the auctions also included unlicenced characters.  If emdkay put Mr. DO! on a marquee and sold it when the character is your property that's fine.  Otherwise the only remote hint of defending that is wondering why something that only said mame was shut down as that did happen.    If that was the fault of Vero being over zealous and you only requested ones that had your licenses then you were not at fault.  But you didn't need to try and trademark mame for that.
The issue is not of you shutting down illegal auctions, we are all fine with that.  We promote using legal games on your arcade cabinet.  The issue is why did you need the mame name in order to shut down something with unlicensed games or characters?

What everyone fails to understand is that this has nothing to do with MAME itself.

No, we realize you didn't want to take the software, you just wanted the name.

I made mention of the TM so that the MAME team could properly protect it

This is incorrect as you tried to trademark mame for yourself, not just mention it.  This means you tried to take the name so you could enforce it.

If you wanted to make a point to mame that they need to deal with their software license you should have just tried for the trademark (if a threat to try for the trademark didn't work) and then hand it over to mame once they got worried.  You didn't need to use the name as an excuse to shut those illegal auctions down since it wasn't mame making the auctions illegal, it was unlicensed games and characters.

So people are upset because you crossed the line and went overboard with it when you didn't need to.

[SirPoonga]

Now, the one reasonable question I have about your strategy to protect yourself from unlicensed competition...

...if the MAME team felt no need to establish a trademark, or to protect their IP, was it right to force them against their will?  It clearly was in your best interest, but was it in theirs?

BTW, I am happy with comments like this we have turned what could have been a flamefest back to a rational discussion on the topic.  trust me, my finger has been on the send to post hell button.

[ferrarimanf355]

Ferrari I agree and have tried to say let's move on.

Thank you.

[ChadTower]

This is incorrect as you tried to trademark mame for yourself, not just mention it.

[SirPoonga]

This is incorrect as you tried to trademark mame for yourself, not just mention it.  This means you tried to take the name so you could enforce it.

What he did was force the MAME team into a limited time use it or lose it scenario.  He forced their hand by applying, and if they still would not enforce their trademark, he was going to take it and try to enforce it himself.

So are we saying Ultrace applied for the trademark and gave nicola the chance to take the trademark.  But refused so he started using the name to get more attention?

[SirPoonga]

Had someone else come along, and filed a TM on MAME, the MAME team would no longer own it.  Had I wished to keep the TM, I could have said nothing and the USPTO would have issued the TM without a single person knowing about it.

Maybe, but as soon as you tried to prosecute someone for infringing your TM rights you'd be laughed out of court. I mean it's laughably easy to prove that the MAME logo has already been in use for many years and that your company has no genuine connection with the trademark.

Actually, it could happen.
Say someone tried to trademark mame but didn't do anything, just applied and let it go through the process hoping no one is searching the trademark office for mame.  It would have become registered.  Then that person could have started doing stuff with the name.  I doubt the mame team has the funding or legal resources to defend against it after that point.

[SirPoonga]

BTW, SirPoonga, SHHHHHHH.  More comments about my keeping things out of Post Hell and you'll ruin my rep.   

I noticed you pulled ahead of me in post count, must be all the bacon talk.

[Stingray]

I noticed you pulled ahead of me in post count, must be all the bacon talk.

A powerful ally is bacon.

-S

[ChadTower]

I get most of my posts in encouraging Stingray and keeping shmokes busy.

Without me to accuse of pulling facts out of my orifices, he would be running the streets.  It's like midnight basketball for paralegals.

[Grasshopper]

Had someone else come along, and filed a TM on MAME, the MAME team would no longer own it.  Had I wished to keep the TM, I could have said nothing and the USPTO would have issued the TM without a single person knowing about it.

Maybe, but as soon as you tried to prosecute someone for infringing your TM rights you'd be laughed out of court. I mean it's laughably easy to prove that the MAME logo has already been in use for many years and that your company has no genuine connection with the trademark.

Actually, it could happen.
Say someone tried to trademark mame but didn't do anything, just applied and let it go through the process hoping no one is searching the trademark office for mame.  It would have become registered.  Then that person could have started doing stuff with the name.  I doubt the mame team has the funding or legal resources to defend against it after that point.

Yes but Foley's rationale wasn't that he could use the MAME logo for himself but that he could prevent others from using it.

It's pointless for Foley to get the MAME TM registered in his name and then do nothing further. He would also have had to be proactive in launching legal action against other commercial entities using the MAME logo (but not necessarily claiming it as their own) who may have had the resources and motivation to defend themselves.

Basically it's highly likely his bluff would have been called.

[ChadTower]

Basically it's highly likely his bluff would have been called.

Among small businesses, this is a very common tactic.  Give me what I want or I sue, and we both know you can't afford an attorney.

[davidrfoley]

Grasshopper, the MAMEDEV team was neither paid off nor afraid of me.  Instead, they acknowledged my offer to help, and unlike many naysayers here, believed that what I was saying.  I offered to pay for the legal fees to get the TM filed for Nicola, they didn't take me up on it.  They know that many people were using MAME to make commerical products, and outright selling them as MAME cabinets, with illegal games.  They wanted to ensure the longevity of MAME, and to do that, distancing themselves from software pirates was a good thing.  They have become diligent in making sure that it is not used to commercially promote piracy, and in doing so ensuring support from people like myself. 

Obviously I am a big fan of classic gaming, I have built an entire company around it.  I continue to provide the community with support (both product and financial)  I understand that there is great power in a community such as this one, for both ideas and actual products.  I also know that a majority of our profits do not come from this community, nor its members.  We make a lot more profit on every Arcade Legends that we sell than we do on selling an I/O card.  Nonetheless, we will continue to develop and sell our I/O cards for this community as it helps spur classic gaming in general, and who knows, maybe something cool will come of it. 

I have a company to run, and I have invested a lot of time on this thread and others.  If my plan was to just take advantage of the community or the MAMEteam or others, I wouldn't spend a moment here, as there is no direct benefit for me taking the time.  However, I do wish to work with people on this forum and others to make sure that our business continues, and that the industry as a whole survives. 

Am I in this for money, yes I am.  But so what.  Everyone here has to put a roof over thier head and food on the table.  I've chosen to do it building video games.  Everyone has a job, mine happens to be based in part by selling classic arcade games.  I also do this becuase I really enjoy it.  I spent years doing it before I ever sold a unit.  I will continue to do so.

[davidrfoley]

Stingray, looks a bit crispy!  There is a future for you in Evil Corporate Poster Art I do believe.

[ChadTower]

I've only seen one Ultracade in person.

[Stingray]

Stingray, looks a bit crispy!  There is a future for you in Evil Corporate Poster Art I do believe.

I've always wanted to be evil and corporate, but I don't think I'm tall enough. Was that a job offer?

I've only seen one Ultracade in person.  It was beaten to crap an barely worked.  Most of the games in that arcade were.

Thus, I've never had the opportunity to try an Ultracade product.

I have to admit that I've never seen one in person at all.

-S

[paigeoliver]

I've only seen one Ultracade in person.  It was beaten to crap an barely worked.  Most of the games in that arcade were.

Thus, I've never had the opportunity to try an Ultracade product.

I have encountered two of them, Dave & Buster's St. Louis has one and the arcade at the Ameristar Casino has one.

Both of them have shoddy "Ultimate" joysticks on them that ruin the gaming experience.

Although I can't seem to get the management at anyplace to CARE about the condition of their machines.

At Dave & Busters (my most frequent hangout).

Both Star Wars Trilogy machines have hacked together joysticks that barely work, have cracked grips and often have one of the two buttons dead. And one of the two machines has a dead event button.

Their Pump it Up machine has some strange problem that often causes it to start frameskipping and thus become unplayable.

Their Derby Owner's Club (in the past month) has started getting "network error" and having to be reboot on an hourly basis. And one of the 8 pods has been down with a defective reader for that stupid little Dave & Busters' card for over a month.

Their Ms. Pac-Man reunion machine magically grew a Happ Super joystick one day.

The Ultracade has "Ultimate" joysticks on it, and the screen is always off-centered to the right, making a small portion of the screen unviewable which ruins certain games. The technicians act like they don't know how to fix THAT and they just reboot the machine when I bring it to their attention.

I dunno what the deal is with the Derby club or the Pump it Up, but there is no excuse for the Star Wars of the Ms. Pac machine. Those 5 games are all I ever played there and now all 5 of them are defective.

Oh, they also used to have a few pins, both had major problems, but they pulled them a long time ago.

I used to go to "The Tilt" at the mall, but I stopped going after I did a survey of the place on my last trip and found that EVERY SINGLE MACHINE was broken in some way or another. There were only 2 exceptions, which was a pair of the latest Capcom fighters that worked perfectly.

[CheffoJeffo]

I've only seen one Ultracade in person.  It was beaten to crap an barely worked.  Most of the games in that arcade were.

Thus, I've never had the opportunity to try an Ultracade product.

As a matter of fact, I saw two Ultracade cabinets (one of them a trackball version) as well as an Arcade Legends cabinet earlier today when I was at Starburst picking up some parts. All in good condition, but I did not have a chance to play any of them ... maybe I'll have a go when I'm there nextweek for the next auction.

Cheers.

[SirPoonga]

Grasshopper, the MAMEDEV team was neither paid off nor afraid of me.  Instead, they acknowledged my offer to help, and unlike many naysayers here, believed that what I was saying.  I offered to pay for the legal fees to get the TM filed for Nicola, they didn't take me up on it.  They know that many people were using MAME to make commerical products, and outright selling them as MAME cabinets, with illegal games.  They wanted to ensure the longevity of MAME, and to do that, distancing themselves from software pirates was a good thing.  They have become diligent in making sure that it is not used to commercially promote piracy, and in doing so ensuring support from people like myself. 

Right, but if they have illegal games why do you need the mame name to shut them down?  It's the games that were illegal, not mame.

[SirPoonga]

Although I can't seem to get the management at anyplace to CARE about the condition of their machines.

That sound like the problem more than any problems with the product.

[ChadTower]

Right, but if they have illegal games why do you need the mame name to shut them down?

[Grasshopper]

Right, but if they have illegal games why do you need the mame name to shut them down?  It's the games that were illegal, not mame.

In order to shut them down, he has to have legal standing.  Having legal standing means he has to own something relevant.  He can't enforce Atari's IP rights if Atari doesn't bother.  There is no IP police you can call to file charges.  That is why he needed to either own the trademark itself or to have the MAME team own and defend it.

Then why not get Atari to agree to let him act on their behalf? He's paid Atari so he can use their IP rights, this type of thing should have been part of the agreement.

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, the MAMEDEV team was neither paid off nor afraid of me.  Instead, they acknowledged my offer to help, and unlike many naysayers here, believed that what I was saying.  I offered to pay for the legal fees to get the TM filed for Nicola, they didn't take me up on it.  They know that many people were using MAME to make commerical products, and outright selling them as MAME cabinets, with illegal games.  They wanted to ensure the longevity of MAME, and to do that, distancing themselves from software pirates was a good thing.  They have become diligent in making sure that it is not used to commercially promote piracy, and in doing so ensuring support from people like myself. 

I guess I'll have to take your word for that but it does seem odd that at first they ignored your emails and then suddenly did a complete U-turn and embraced your idea. What I wonder caused the change of heart? And what was in it for them? They don't need to trademark the MAME logo to distance themselves from pirates.

Let me approach this issue from a different angle. You've indicated that you're in this for the money and there is nothing basically wrong with that. But in this context don't you think it would have been more appropriate to have entered into a proper commercial arrangement with the mamedevs, and paid not just their legal fees, but a hefty amount on top of that as compensation for their cooperation which they were under no obligation to give. If a commercial organisation asks me to help them then I expect to get paid.

I guess it's possible you offered them this type of arrangement and they turned you down. But something just doesn't add up here. I feel we're not getting the full story.

[SirPoonga]

Right, but if they have illegal games why do you need the mame name to shut them down?  It's the games that were illegal, not mame.

In order to shut them down, he has to have legal standing.  Having legal standing means he has to own something relevant.  He can't enforce Atari's IP rights if Atari doesn't bother.  There is no IP police you can call to file charges.  That is why he needed to either own the trademark itself or to have the MAME team own and defend it.

But it an auction claimed they could play thousands of game and one of them was Ladybug or Mr. Do?

Like you said, if they were Midway and Atari games couldn't he get Midway and Atari to do something?

As for the auctions had had characters he didn;t need mame for that?

[davidrfoley]

MAME is not for sale. 

[SirPoonga]

MAME is not for sale. 

Right but replace Atari with mame  with what chadtower said

"In order to shut them down, he has to have legal standing.  Having legal standing means he has to own something relevant.  He can't enforce MAME's IP rights if MAME doesn't bother.  There is no IP police you can call to file charges.  That is why he needed to either own the trademark itself or to have the MAME team own and defend it."

You still didn't own MAME, it was pending, so how could you enforce it?

[stratjakt]

Look for the common ground, folks.

I think we can all agree that Mr Do sucks, no matter who owns it.

[ChadTower]

But it an auction claimed they could play thousands of game and one of them was Ladybug or Mr. Do?

Realistically, what percentage of those auctions actually said Ladybug or Mr. Do?

[davidrfoley]

We can definitely not agree on that.  Mr. DO! is one of the all time greatest games ever produced. 

[stratjakt]

Again with the lies!

Everyone knows that nothing produced prior to September 23 1999 is worth playing, unless it was from Nintendo.

[ChadTower]

I like Mr Do.  Excellent game.

[davidrfoley]

now we are just being silly.  Nothing before 1999?  There was a lot more great stuff produced before 1999 than after 1999, that is for sure.

[stratjakt]

You're correct, of course, the Dreamcast lauched on Sept 9, 1999, ushering out the era of video games that suck.

[Stingray]

Mr. DO! is one of the all time greatest games ever produced. 

Holy flying monkey poop! I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with you 100% on that count.

Speaking of Mr. Do, can I sell a Mr. Do console cart on ebay without paying liscence fees? Just curious, I'd never let go of anything Mr. Do related.

-S

[ChadTower]

The cart IS your license, so yes, you could, sarcasm boy.

[Stingray]

The cart IS your license, so yes, you could, sarcasm boy.

I learned it all from you Master Debater.

-S

[SirPoonga]

But it an auction claimed they could play thousands of game and one of them was Ladybug or Mr. Do?

Realistically, what percentage of those auctions actually said Ladybug or Mr. Do?  None of them gave an outright list, and he could only go after those that advertised as infringing on his IP.  The only way to go after one of those "it has 4000 romz0rz" auctions would be to buy the damn thing and THEN sue them when it came with his IP on it.

Ok, I understand that. 
With all that said, how can he could issue ceise and desist letters to companies, only stating they infringe on the mame trademark that was his pending.
Basically how can he enforce something that wasn't his yet?
The people that did realize the trademark was only pending, what happened to them?

Other than that I think all the questions have been answered?


FYI, Mr. DO! is one of the best games ever made.  My friend's dad has a Universal one in his basement
stratjakt, stop trying to stir the pot with the video games suck thing, that has no relevance here.

[Thenasty]

Again with the lies!

LOL   

[davidrfoley]

Stingray, at least put my full name in the quote, David R. Foley, that way they won't think the quote from the Kids in the Hall

[ChadTower]

Ok, I understand that.

[Stingray]

Sorry, due to the restrictions of the forum software, I couldn't fit your middle initial in the allocated space. I'm pretty sure no one will misunderstand, but I'll see if I can wrangle it in.

-S

[Stingray]

I had to do away with the color tag to make room, but I did it anyway because I don't want to get smacked with a C&D.

-S

[SirPoonga]

David R. Foley,

I'm satisfied with the current answer to the mame trademark thing now.  With that last it was just a bullying attempt to get the people that didn't realize the patent was pending yet.  Touche for making it work.


Would you mind commenting on the last half of post #111?
To sum up:

As a home consumer why would I be interested in your home consumer products?
Could I use your current home consumer products in an existing cabinet? as most of use here already have a cabinet.
How woud your Arcade Legends Midway game pack be different than using a Midway treasure collection (which the readme says is emulated form arcade) and they are pretty much the same games?

[Havok]

Mr. DO! is one of the all time greatest games ever produced.

[davidrfoley]

You can't use our software in a home cabinet.  Arcade Legends runs on a proprietary system and OS.  The game packs will only load into that system.  Arcade Legends and Ultimate Arcade are geared towards those people that don't have the skill or the desire to "do it themselves" and just want a turnkey solution. 

For BYOAC type users we will soon have our version of StarROMs called iROMs that will allow people to get legal copies of a lot of the games that we sell.  We are working closely with the MAMEDEV team on many of our products.  We also have a new lightgun board that has been completed that works with real coin-op guns like those from Happ Controls.  We have recently submitted our USBlinx JAMMA I/O PC Interface and uVC Video Interface to Kevin Steele for an impartial review.

[davidrfoley]

We don't shut down auctions of legitmate original products.  If you are selling an original PCB, or game, we don't have any issue with that.  We only shut down auctions that infringe on our rights.

[stratjakt]

You can sell your Mr Do, just don't expect to get much for it.

[Stingray]

You can sell your Mr Do, just don't expect to get much for it.

Dude, seriously, what are you even doing on site that's primarily geared toward classic gaming?

-S

[Havok]

OK, I think we've covered all the main topics here except one:

Picture deleted. Please stop poisoning serious or on-topic threads with pictures of scantily clad women. (This is directed to no one person in particular).  --- saint

[Stingray]

This is the first time today that I was actually glad I opened this thread.

-S

[SirPoonga]

stratjakt, any more of that and I will consider it thread poisoining.

[stratjakt]

Dude, seriously, what are you even doing on site that's primarily geared toward classic gaming?

Firstly, not everyone considers Mr Do a "classic", most haven't heard of it.

Secondly, I'm derailing a really stupid argument, one that boils down to:

"MR Foley you are a real jerk!  Stop stealing other people work! 
...

Now I have to get back to downloading 0-sec NeoGeo romz for my arcade collection!"


Thirdly, I didn't think this site was dedicated to classics, so much as to those who like to build/restore arcade cabinets and controls, of which I am one of whom that does.


Also, this thread was "poisoned" from the original post.

[SirPoonga]

For BYOAC type users we will soon have our version of StarROMs called iROMs that will allow people to get legal copies of a lot of the games that we sell.  We are working closely with the MAMEDEV team on many of our products.  We also have a new lightgun board that has been completed that works with real coin-op guns like those from Happ Controls.  We have recently submitted our USBlinx JAMMA I/O PC Interface and uVC Video Interface to Kevin Steele for an impartial review.

Can you release your prices for iRoms?  I understand if it is too early.
Basically, can I get the games equal or cheaper than a collection like (linked) Midway Arcade Treasures and Atari Classics.  The readme for these collections say they are emulated arcade.
Are you going to be able to handle if a romset mame supports changes?  With all the work on discrete sound changes in mame some sets have been updated.

The lightgun thing is really cool.  I know people are interested in that if they own a real light gun.  But with the verge of using a PS2 lightgun people will have to deside how arcade authentic they want for the price.

[paigeoliver]

There is a reason to go after ANYONE using Mame if you want to keep away the competition.

That reason is that tons of emulated games are owned by companies that DON'T care. Its not hurting their sales because they pulled out of America 10 and 15 years ago and don't even have so much of a franchise office.

There are a large enough number of games belonging to companies that would never take the effort to protect their property (because their property is largely worthless), than anyone could build a machine just using those and have a gamelist that trounces the Ultracade.

Of course, all this means is that many cabinet builders are going to shift over to freeware games, buttloads of them. I can load a cabinet with freeware games so good that it would make any commercial multi-game look like a dog.

[SirPoonga]

Dude, seriously, what are you even doing on site that's primarily geared toward classic gaming?

Firstly, not everyone considers Mr Do a "classic", most haven't heard of it.

I think most people have heard of Mr. DO.  It was a great selling arcade game.  It sold many copies on the Apple IIe.

The mame history.dat file sums up pretty well
"Inspired by "Dig Dug". The first in a series of four Mr. Do! games, Mr Do! was one of video-gaming's biggest arcade successes. Unfortunately for Universal, none of their other games could match it in commercial terms and the company disappeared in the video game crash of 1983-84."

Secondly, I'm derailing a really stupid argument, one that boils down to:

"MR Foley you are a real jerk!  Stop stealing other people work! 
...

Now I have to get back to downloading 0-sec NeoGeo romz for my arcade collection!"

This issue has already been resolved.  No one said anything about downloading roms.

Also, this thread was "poisoned" from the original post.

how?

There is a reason to go after ANYONE using Mame if you want to keep away the competition.

That reason is that tons of emulated games are owned by companies that DON'T care. Its not hurting their sales because they pulled out of America 10 and 15 years ago and don't even have so much of a franchise office.

There are a large enough number of games belonging to companies that would never take the effort to protect their property (because their property is largely worthless), than anyone could build a machine just using those and have a gamelist that trounces the Ultracade.

Right, but it just takes one company that does care and is involved.  And it is still unfair competition to Ultracade as the games on those cabinets are illegal to be sold with the cabinet.

But it seems Ultracde did this because the mame team wasn't responding to his requests that they enforce their license.  If he warned them that he was going to trademark the name and they still didn't respond to that it is the mame's fault for not taking it seriously. 

I'm not completely sure that's how it went down but I can believe it. The mame devs are a stubborn bunch.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Ultracade.  but it sounds like the whole thing could have been avoided.

Of course, all this means is that many cabinet builders are going to shift over to freeware games, buttloads of them. I can load a cabinet with freeware games so good that it would make any commercial multi-game look like a dog.

Yes, check out this.

[CheffoJeffo]

Everyone knows that nothing produced prior to September 23 1999 is worth playing, unless it was from Nintendo.

Razzafrazzin kids ... rizzin ... razzin ... Galaga ... rizzin ... razzin ... Joust ... rizzin razzin ... Robotron ... rizzin razzin ... no respect .. sob ...

Where's my goshdarn killfile ?

 

Cheers

[stratjakt]

That reason is that tons of emulated games are owned by companies that DON'T care. Its not hurting their sales because they pulled out of America 10 and 15 years ago and don't even have so much of a franchise office.

It doesn't mean they don't care per se, it just means they cant do anything about it.  Imagine you own the rights to some game you wrote in 1989.  Now you're pretty much broke, the .com bubble burst, and you're just an average work-a-day joe.

Now you see your game featured on cabinets and collections being sold on eBay, and realize someone else is making $$ off of your work.  I'm not talking about people downloading roms w/o paying anything, but actual sale of your work.  Just imagine, and tell me it wouldnt piss you off.  What are you going to do?  Sue everyone selling your stuff?  In the real world, lawyers are expensive, and you got a mortgage and car payments. 

Face it, the games people want to play are commercially viable - because people want to play them.  It's so logical it almost makes sense.  If people want it, it's probably worth paying for.

The only romset I know of thats PD is Robby Roto, and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen anyone build a "robby roto" cabinet on these forums.  I've seen plenty of Pac Mans and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat themed ones though.  Hardly games that the copyright owners have forgotten about or abandoned.

And I'm pretty sure that the games that get played most on the average mame cab aren't the obscure "no one heard of them and nobody cares about them" titles, but probably Marvel vs Capcom, Metal Slug 3 and 4, SVC Chaos, Pac Man... you see where I'm going with this.

I'm not trying to dis people who build their own cabs, I dont believe that for personal hobbyist use IP law should get in the way (morally, legally of course has nothing to do with whats right).

But if he (foley) spends the $$ for licensing of these old games, watching other people sell it illegaly no doubt does, and should, cheese him off in a big way.  Yeah, it hurts his business.  People are acting like his taking steps to protect his business is a bad thing.

Frankly, I think eBay should cancel most of the "mame" auctions, not because of trademark issues, but because they're dopey scams.  People selling carraige bolts or cabinet locks from home depot and tagging them as "mame compatible".. Heh..

I've seen eBay auctions for modded xboxes preloaded with 100 games.  I'm sure that pisses a few people off too.

Where was I?

I guess I just dont see the justification for all the moral outrage.

Maybe we need a mame hack that only lists games nobody gives a crap about..  Roby Roto, Mahjong, and maybe some quiz/trivia games.

Sorry, but that argument is just as old as software piracy itself.  "Most games are dumb so it's ok for me to get Half Life 2 off of a torrent", or "most movies suck so it's ok for me to leech the LOTR trilogy"

[SirPoonga]

The only romset I know of thats PD is Robby Roto, and correct me if I'm wrong

gridlee

I haven't seen anyone build a "robby roto" cabinet on these forums.  I've seen plenty of Pac Mans and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat themed ones though.  Hardly games that the copyright owners have forgotten about or abandoned.

But that is different, those aren't cabinet for sale, those are cabinets that someone built for themselves.  If I build an operating system that looks, acts, generally runs like Windows XP but made it for myself is that wrong?  If I make a root beer that tastes like A&W for myself, is that wrong?  If I build something that looks and works like RandyT's up and coming LEDWiz for myself is that wrong?

But if he (foley) spends the $$ for licensing of these old games, watching other people sell it illegaly no doubt does, and should, cheese him off in a big way.  Yeah, it hurts his business.  People are acting like his taking steps to protect his business is a bad thing.

No, as I said before that isn't the problem.  We all agree that you should protect your business rights.  The problem is how he did it by trying to trademark mame for himself.  That everyone agrees was just a bad idea.

[ferrarimanf355]

I honestly think that there is some progress being made. All I can say is, keep it civil and Mr. Foley, be honest. You have the courage to come here: you now have a chance to set the record straight and improve your reputation. Don't let it get away! 

[MaximRecoil]

At the very least, this Foley guy is an extortionist (by definition; not necessarily in the legal sense). There is more about him and his actions that is objectionable but he has already 'fessed up to extortion; and apparently thinks it is something to be proud of...or something.

[quarterback]

So, you're saying Ebay would allow Foley to have auctions pulled based on a trademark that he did not own?  Wouldn't a reasonably implemented VERO require proof of trademark ownership before it would begin pulling items?

Yes and yes.  IF Mr. Foley was having auctions pulled for using the Mame logo and/or distributing mame, that he (Mr. Foley or his representatives) signed a piece of paper that said something to the effect of "Yeah, Mame is ours" and or presented "proof" that it was his.

Vero isn't going to pull Mame auctions if I ask them to.
Vero isn't going to pull bootleg copies of Star Wars if you ask them to
Vero isn't going to pull copyrighted photos if my dog asks them to

Their response to all of those situations is: If you're not the proven copyright/trademarlk/whatever owner and a VERO member, then the auction stands, go away.

In order for Vero to pull an auction, the Vero member must request it.  In order to become a Vero member you, obviously, must present some kind of evidence that you are actually the owner of said game/name/movie/logo/whatever.

If you conjure up 'proof' that you own the Star Wars Original Trilogy and you convince Vero that you are the rightful owner, then you can have them pull Star Wars auctions.  That's why I say yes to "Ebay would allow Foley to have auctions pulled based on a trademark that he did not own?"  Sure, if you present yourself as the TM owner and they believe it based on whatever info you present. and yes to "Wouldn't a reasonably implemented VERO require proof of trademark ownership before it would begin pulling items?"    I'm not sure that VERO is "resonably implemented" and I don't know what sort of evidence might have been presented.

Obviously I believe that anybody falsely presenting themselves as the owner of something that is not theirs, is a scumbag.   And no laundry list of "but I did it with good intentions" changes that.

"Action is character" and the action of falsely claiming something as your own tells me volumes about your character.

========

- advertising ability to run unlicensed games (violation of mame license agreement)
- advertising shipment with full version of mame (violation of mame license agreement)

Could you explain why Ultracade has the right to shut down auctions in violation of the MAME license agreement?

Exactly Chad. That is the question.

[paigeoliver]

If I owned a worthless piece of IP I would sell the rights to it on ebay and be done with it.

I wrote a (and never published) a D&D module in 1997, I sold the manuscript and the rights to it on ebay for $34 a couple years ago.

[RayB]

It doesn't mean they don't care per se, it just means they cant do anything about it.

[paigeoliver]

Funny you mentioned Breakout, Jobs was hired to do Breakout and then subcontracted it out to Wozniak and paid him almost nothing for it.

[rchadd]

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

[Thenasty]

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

Ditto, I think its better we get the answers from you D.F.

[Quarters]

Of course, all this means is that many cabinet builders are going to shift over to freeware games, buttloads of them. I can load a cabinet with freeware games so good that it would make any commercial multi-game look like a dog.

Few would buy it.

Freeware games no matter how good can not be the classic cabinet games of our youth. I do play shareware and other pc games on my cab but would not have built/bought one for this pupose.

[Edgedamage]

But loading a cab with shareware allows you to test drive it before you take it home.

[RayB]

The whole point of loading a cab up with freeware is so you can claim "plays thousands of games!" legally. The quality of the experience and the games themselves is irrelevant here. This scenario only applies if you are SELLING the cab. Of course to anyone building one for personal use, you're damn well gonna be using arcade ROMs...

[ChadTower]

I agree with that.  Acquiring them for your own home use is one issue.  Acquiring them to sell with hardware is another.

[Stingray]

Everyone knows that nothing produced prior to September 23 1999 is worth playing, unless it was from Nintendo.

Face it, the games people want to play are commercially viable - because people want to play them.  It's so logical it almost makes sense.  If people want it, it's probably worth paying for.

The only romset I know of thats PD is Robby Roto, and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen anyone build a "robby roto" cabinet on these forums.  I've seen plenty of Pac Mans and Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat themed ones though.  Hardly games that the copyright owners have forgotten about or abandoned.

Pac Man -1980, Midway
Street Fighter- 1987, Capcom
Motrtal Kombat-1992, Midway

Hey man, you know you aren't supposed to drink Drano right?

-S

[Ken Layton]

Several local game operators in my area have pledged they will not be buying _ANY_ Ultracade products at all.

[stratjakt]

Ken, would that be because of some moral stance, or just because they know that the whole "retrogaming" fad just doesnt translate into money?

There's some sort of classics multigame machine at a local bar,  (not sure if its Ultracade or what, its not bright blue tacky ugly.. Plays Kong, Pac Man, Dig Dug)   it sits in the corner gathering dust.  I was hanging out one day when the operator came in, and I was chatting it up with him about a broken High Speed pinball in the corner..  Anyways, he was emptying the coin buckets in the pool tables, mp3 jukebox, etc while we were talking..

The last machine he went to was the classics machine, and I peeked behind the coin door when he opened it.  The coin counter was in single digits.  He proceded to remove two quarters from it.  The machine had been there forever and a day, I asked him how long he'd had it on site, he said about a year.  I asked him if the coin counter was broken, and he gloomily replied "nope".

He went on about how much money he'd sunk into these machines, and the Ms Pac/Galaga machines.. I just shrugged and said if he ever wanted to part it out I'd give him 500 for the cab (hey, it's a nice cab with a 25" monitor).  He said he figured he'd eventually part it out, and took my number.  Not a lot of collectors around here..

My point is, from an operators standpoint, these things dont seem to be able to make a dime..  Maybe that's just my area - the land of the Golden Tees and Deer Hunting games.

He wanted seven hundred gajillion dollars for the broken down high speed with the crappy playfield and cracked backglass..  I tried to tell him gajillion isnt a number but he wouldnt listen.

[Ken Layton]

Many of the operators around here are sympathetic to game collectors and want nothing to do with the Ultracade company (or the way they have treated some of you guys). These operators are running classic games still on the route and they still make money here. When was the last time you saw a Dig Dug pulling in $30 to $50 a week? Well, it's happening here.

[ChadTower]

If I were a bar person, and saw a classic machine, I'd end up pouring $5 into it.

[Stingray]

Ditto.

-S

[ferrarimanf355]

Several good points were made since my last post.

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

The hundred thousand dollar question. A simple yes or no would suffice here, and if it is indeed based off MAME, did the MAMEDevs give Ultracade their blessing?

At the very least, this Foley guy is an extortionist (by definition; not necessarily in the legal sense). There is more about him and his actions that is objectionable but he has already 'fessed up to extortion; and apparently thinks it is something to be proud of...or something.

[SirPoonga]

Several good points were made since my last post.

mr foley, there is much discussion on whether your ultracade platform is actually based on early version of mame software. can you advise on the exact status of your emulator platform? did you develop it from scratch or is it a derivative of mame or some other publicly available emulator code?

mr foley please can you respond to this question.

The hundred thousand dollar question. A simple yes or no would suffice here, and if it is indeed based off MAME, did the MAMEDevs give Ultracade their blessing?

Been covered before int he past.  He claims it is a custom OS and software on the ultracade.  It's only rumored he used mame.  Until someone reverse engineers it you will never really know.

[Crazy Cooter]

1- Still no response on the email correspodence with EMDKAY.

[stratjakt]

So classics do make some bucks in other areas, huh?  Maybe this guy just has a crappy route, I mean the bar I talked about is pretty much a hick bar, and Pac Man would be really confusing and high-tech to it's regulars..

The Fuddruckers around here has a Ms-Pac/Galaga, and last time I was there I noticed the joystick was broken.. So maybe it wore out from play and was just burstin with quarters, or maybe some stupid kid was swinging off of it, because parents just let their kids run wild there like it was Chuck E Cheese or something.

Oh  yeah, and in my prev post, I meant "double digits", not "single digits", because "single digits" doesnt make sense.   It was sixty-something, iirc.

Maybe being set for 50 cents a play was part of his problem.

[ChadTower]

Fifty cents is absolutely a problem.  I would not pay fifty cents to play pacman more than once.

[RayB]

Maybe being set for 50 cents a play was part of his problem.

That doesn't help. But it's also the fact that people have never heard of an Ultracade and they are less likely to bother "checking it out". But put an original game with the full on unique artwork and everything and suddenly nostaligia kicks in which makes them want to play it again for kicks.

[SirPoonga]

UltraCade machine claims: "Mentioned on The Howard Stern Radio Show
"

[Crazy Cooter]

But it's being used to promote their product in an official public release.  It's the same as you qouting me saying your machine plays 3000 games.  It doesn't.  It's not an accurate representation of the product.  Which is exactly what the problem is with people selling MAME cabinets.  They're claiming what can't be done.

[RayB]

So at what point does this thread qualify for a move to "Everything Else"?
 

[teef2]

Somehow I feel responsible for all this, having been the first to reply with a "I don't give a toss" comment.

I have no quarrell with Mr. Foley. I've formed my own opinion of his actions and it is entirely consistent with corporate attitudes throughout the world. Entirely legal but perhaps, in some peoples opinion, morally questionable. However it is obvious that most people never let their sense of morals get in the way of doing what is right (I'm quoting from Asimov here )

We all know the reality with regards to Mame and the machines that have been built. It will still happen regardless of Mr Foley or anyone else. Just let it be. The more you argue, the worse they'll become.

I can see the argument against Napster - that's someones living. But a 25 year old arcade game, one you can't even play any more in most countries. Hmmm. Unless of course it's someones living off the back of others hard work! But, that's the way of the world.

Mr. Foley is playing the system, and he's very good at it. But...  what's the limit of the market. I suspect that limit is just being found.

Anyway, what's been said has been said. I don't see any further progression in this argument. You'll only get a politicians answer, so why bother.

[Crazy Cooter]

Entirely legal but perhaps, in some peoples opinion, morally questionable.

There's nothing legal about a fraudulent document submitted to the feds.

[Edgedamage]

So at what point does this thread qualify for a move to "Everything Else"?
 

Or post hell.

[MaximRecoil]

At the very least, this Foley guy is an extortionist (by definition; not necessarily in the legal sense). There is more about him and his actions that is objectionable but he has already 'fessed up to extortion; and apparently thinks it is something to be proud of...or something.

[Crazy Cooter]

I should point out to people that when the MAMEdevs registered for their trademark, they didn't register the logo.  Because it isn't theirs either!  It's a copyrighted image that was done a long time ago by someone else.  THAT is the image that Foley claimed when he registered his trademark application.  THAT is the logo discussed here where Foley wants royalties from EMDKAY:

Quote from: emdkay on February 21, 2005, 10:37:27 AM
My email correspondence with Mr David Foley:

Message #1 [From Dave Foley]:

Comments: Your use of the MAME name and MAME logo is a violation of our registered trademark (USPTO Reg # 76627578).  Rather than proceed with legal action against you and your company, and getting lawyers involved, we would like to resolve this directly.  Please contact me by Wednsday to discuss.  David R. Foley, CEO UltraCade Technologies.

That's (part of the reason) why Foley's trademark application would never have been approved.  Not only was he claiming the program the MAMEdevs did, he was claiming the image which an artist did.  He also was after Oscar for distributing the image even though he had permission from the artist to distribute it on his site!

[M3talhead]

I'm still waiting for Foley to provide a counter to emdkay's transcripts.......

[menace]

keep waiting--he was asked repeatedly several pages back and as of yet has not provided documented proof of his side of the argument.  In my mind this means no excuse or rationalization is possible and that EMDKAY's version of events is in fact the ACTUAL version of events.

I'm also inclined to believe that crazy cooter's evidence flies in the face of pretty much everything foley has said since joining this board.

[Tiger-Heli]

keep waiting--he was asked repeatedly several pages back and as of yet has not provided documented proof of his side of the argument.  In my mind this means no excuse or rationalization is possible and that EMDKAY's version of events is in fact the ACTUAL version of events.

I'm also inclined to believe that crazy cooter's evidence flies in the face of pretty much everything foley has said since joining this board.

I have been inclined to believe that for a LONG time.

[Bones]

I think we can all agree that Mr Do sucks, no matter who owns it.

I also disagree. I think Mr Do is a great game. I am always profiting from the selling of this rom to friends and people I meet in the street.

[JoyMonkey]

I think we can all agree that Mr Do sucks, no matter who owns it.

I also disagree. I think Mr Do is a great game. I am always profiting from the selling of this rom to friends and people I meet in the street.

It makes me sad to hear of Mr.Do being pimped like a cheap ho.
Seriously though, I've had a lot of PCBs come and go over the last few years, but Mr.Do! is the one game PCB that I regret selling (think I let it go for $50- what was I thinking?) and there's not many among us that don't consider it a classic.

[rchadd]

Mr Do is a pile of Poo in my opinion

I liked the quote further up the thread something along the lines....

"A turd wearing a bowtie is still a turd" hmmm who could that be?

Maybe we'll see an Ultracade Mr. Poo game soon?

notice that seems all existence of foley has been erased from the ultracade website - no longer we see his grinning face

[RayB]

That's (part of the reason) why Foley's trademark application would never have been approved.

[Crazy Cooter]

He didn't claim the program, just the name.

That's what I meant.  He was laying claim to their title.  He couldn't take their program, but he was trying to take the name of their program.

Believe me, I know what the difference is between trademarks, servicemarks, patents, & copyrights.  There is no "grey area" in the application.  Read the fine print on the application request:

[Stingray]

I'm no lawyer, but if you sign a piece of paper claiming that something that you know is not true to be true, is that not illegal?

-S

[ChadTower]

I'm no lawyer, but if you sign a piece of paper claiming that something that you know is not true to be true, is that not illegal?

Depends on the document.  The law has so many contingencies.  He definitely would not have been awarded the trademark, but applying for it is not illegal to my knowledge since no one has previously applied for it.

Now, had he mispreresented his identity, or some other fact to which that posted statement applies, that would be illegal.

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm no lawyer, but if you sign a piece of paper claiming that something that you know is not true to be true, is that not illegal?

-S

Ummmn, if the paper says that "willful false statements and the like so made are punishable by fine or imprisonment, or both, under 18 U.S.C. Section 1001 . . ." then, yeah, I think so . . .

[ChadTower]

The thing is, that statement is meant to refer to the immediately provable information he is providing.  It applies to stuff like his name, his social security #, his business, etc etc.  When the language comes around to the MAME mark, it starts using more subjective language.  THAT is the legal difference.

You can prosecute someone for giving a false social security number.  You cannot prosecute them for saying they believe they are entitled to that trademark since belief has no direct bearing on fact.

[Crazy Cooter]

You can be prosecuted for lying to the Federal Government.  It doesn't matter what document it is.  The statement is at the bottom of the application and covers the application as a whole.

Foley signed saying he didn't know that anyone had rights to it when he did know that someone else had rights to it.

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/21/0415209&tid=203&tid=17&tid=10
Update: 02/21 13:26 GMT by T : UltraCade Technologies CEO David R. Foley contacted Slashdot with an emailed explanation of the filing, reproduced below at his request.

... In the past couple of years, there has been a huge wave of resellers competing with our UltraCade and Arcade Legends products. They build a similar style cabinet, install a PC in the machine, load M.A.M.E., and sell it for a very low price.

[Thenasty]

I say D.F is still full of IT ....

[ChadTower]

You can be prosecuted for lying to the Federal Government. 

People rarely are... people within the gov't lie constantly.  Recently Rafael Palmeiro stood before congress and pointed a finger at them, saying he had never used steroids.  Weeks later he failed a steroid test.  He hasn't been prosecuted and likely never will.

Can, and actually are, are not the same, unfortunately.

[Crazy Cooter]

Agreed.

[M3talhead]

You can be prosecuted for lying to the Federal Government.

[ChadTower]

Tell that to a U.S. servicemember.......

Service men and women are held to a different standard.  They are actually accountable for their actions, unlike pretty much everyone else in the US.

[M3talhead]

Tell that to a U.S. servicemember.......

Service men and women are held to a different standard.

[ChadTower]

That's just the infection talking.  You didn't powder your feet.

[hulkster]

mr. foley....

i really dont care about the all the threads and legality and what you did and didnt do.  the main thing is...

something was completely innocent and FREE, and you screwed around with to make money on it, and messed it up for everyone else. 

whether its legal or not, it still sucks either way you look at it.  sucks for us, maybe not for you.