Contacts for removable panels (cable-free)

[Minwah]

I've been wanting to make cable-free connections for my swappable control panels for some time...but never got round to it.  Anyway, just stumbled upon these:

http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/rkmain.asp?PAGEID=80010&CTL_CAT_CODE=&STK_PROD_CODE=M71524&XPAGENO=1

They seem to be cheaper than the automotive type which are generally very expensive.  I think they are designed for PCB mounting so not sure if they will be entirely suitable, but I'm probably going to order a few to try out.

I'll post back with results...anyone else tried these/anything similar?

[Lilwolf]

I spent a LONG time tring to build some that I was hoping to sell. 

The trouble isn't as much the switches, but what they are going to connect too. 

You will use one of these for every connection you want.  But you might have 10+ control panels.  Anyway, you will want to ask if you can buy multiples of the female side.

Also, the are probably pretty small (because they are for cell phones and the like).  Is your control panels mounted in a way that they wont move left/right by even a little bit?  I had this trouble for a bit...

btw, here is an older version of mine

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=27724.msg235240#msg235240

They really started working well and reliable when I started using heat shrink wrapping around the connections on the back.  Really made a big difference.  Also I started using a different terminal block (the cinch 10 position ones) since they where MUCH easier to get ahold of and cheaper for the new ones.

btw, I would be selling them today if I could find a supplier for the springs.  But I do have about 100 springs if anyones interested.

[Minwah]

You will use one of these for every connection you want.  But you might have 10+ control panels.  Anyway, you will want to ask if you can buy multiples of the female side.

True...of course the price will add up for multiple panels (I have 5), but some are USB and so only require 1x 4/5-way.  You can definately get multiples of the female ones.

Also, the are probably pretty small (because they are for cell phones and the like).  Is your control panels mounted in a way that they wont move left/right by even a little bit?  I had this trouble for a bit...

Yeah, it states 2.54 and 4mm 'pitch'.  Not sure what that means, but maybe the width of the connectors (?).  I know my stick panel is perfect size (no play) but my analog panel may have a bit of give...I think it would be ok though.

They really started working well and reliable when I started using heat shrink wrapping around the connections on the back.  Really made a big difference.  Also I started using a different terminal block (the cinch 10 position ones) since they where MUCH easier to get ahold of and cheaper for the new ones.

btw, I would be selling them today if I could find a supplier for the springs.  But I do have about 100 springs if anyones interested.

I remember yours...looked promising.  I might be interested but I will probably give these a try first.

[jedi27]

I imagine that the pitch is either the height of the spring at it's tip to the surface it's mounted on....   

[Minwah]

I imagine that the pitch is either the height of the spring at it's tip to the surface it's mounted on....   

Probably right.  I've ordered one male & one female so I should have an idea soon whether it is any good or not...

[2600]

For PCB parts, Pitch has to deal with the distance between pins.  Measurements are taken from the center of the pin to the center of the next pin on the same row.

2.54mm is like the standard header distance used on Floppy Headers and IDE headers.

[Minwah]

For PCB parts, Pitch has to deal with the distance between pins.  Measurements are taken from the center of the pin to the center of the next pin on the same row.

2.54mm is like the standard header distance used on Floppy Headers and IDE headers.

Thanks, that's handy to know.  Probably a shame I ordered the 4mm ones 

[stratjakt]

An idea I'd cooked up for something like this had four springs mounted on the bottom of each panel, recessed into 7/8 holes so that if the panel lay flat on the floor or something, they wouldnt get bent or crushed. 

The cab would have four copper pipe caps (3/4 inch caps from the plumbing section at home depot), attached to wires leading directly to a USB port on the PC.

The springs would make a good contact with the caps, and the caps themselves would act as a guide with the recessed holes in the panel.  The panels could then all have a cheap USB hub.

Only having four points of contact (actually, I'd thought of 5, one just being a large field ground) would make it much more robust, since the more contact points, the greater chance of failure. 

Electrically I think it would work fine, since none of the stuff I would hook up are "high bandwidth" devices.  An external HDD on a USB2.0 port might behave a little wonky, but a joystick should be cool.

The downside, of course, would be that each panel would have to have its own USB encoder. 

But, the way I figured it, each panel would be completely different, and it's very hacker friendly - ie; get a cheap USB steering wheel, hack to make a driving panel.  Hack a cheap USB mouse to a trackball, etc.. Hack a cheap USB gamepad or stick to make a more standard arcade panel.  My plans also called for cheap usb headphone ports, for silent playing.  Easy to add a usb socket to plug in a keyboard/mouse for testing and setup, or a usb pendrive to upgrade the software (or network card, etc - you see where I'm going with this).

Dont forget, XBox accessories are all just USB, with very good homebrew drivers about (btw, my XBox S-type controller with hacked cable is *the best* gamepad I've ever used on the PC), so there's plenty of gaming junk in the bargain bin at EB.  I also considered using an XBox as the brains of the cab.

It seemed cheap, easy to source (parts all at home depot, a dime a cap and pennies a spring), very rugged, and very doable.

I've since backed off on making a mame machine, deciding I prefer rebuilding dedicated uprights, but if I do eventually build one, some sort of removable panel is necessary. 

I find nothing really "authentic" about some cluttered panel with 90000 buttons and 4 kinds of sticks and spinners and trackballs and guns and steering wheels and waffle irons.  The whole point of an arcade cab is simplicity - it should be obvious how it works and what you're supposed to do the first time you drop a quarter in. 

Hell, I even find neo-geo games that dont use all 4 buttons a little hokey.  That's just one guys opinion, though.

[2600]

stratjakt, it seems like a lot of work to avoid plugging a cable in.  Seems like a better investment would be a hub, USB extension cable, etc.

[stratjakt]

True, but I'd just rather do the work up front than every time I need to switch panels, have to plug the cable in, then make sure it doesnt get squashed, etc..  I wanted to just be able to grab a new panel and drop it on without having to think too much..  Something easy enough for my kids to do, my biggest problem would be making the panels themselves light enough for them to be able to manipulate.

The panels would be one finished piece, with no dangling cords to get crushed or tripped over..  If you think about it, the cords would have to be really short, leading to some sort of awkward "hold fairly heavy MDF panel with one hand kind of half on while you reach in and plug it in blind", or really long, leading to "trip over it or snag it and wreck it". 

I wanted them to just pivot along a rail on the front, and let go, and it plunks right into position, and on the software side, use the auto-detection features of the OS to trigger a modification of the game list appropriately.

Of course, I instead opted to buy a bunch of real cabs and build a game room to put them in.  Talk about a lot of work.

[markb]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but what about hacking wireless keyboards, joysticks etc Obviously they will need battery changes but if your swapping panels frequently it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Alternatively if Andy from Ultimarc is listening what are the chances of a wireless Ipac?

[Minwah]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but what about hacking wireless keyboards, joysticks etc Obviously they will need battery changes but if your swapping panels frequently it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Keyboards probably still have problems with ghosting.  Joypads would probably be fine.

[rbarr110]

I thought about trying to use metal snap buttons that can be "bolted" on to two differnet pieces of wood.  You could then use the circular crimp on wire connectors to attach to the bolted connection on the opposite side of the button. 

By the looks of the button you could put small threaded bolts on both parts and the button would still snap.  I haven't tried it yet, but the biggest problem I can see would be that you would have to pre-drill all your wood plates at the same time to guarantee a matching pattern on all your CP's (or at least keep a pattern that you can use over and over). 

Heck, with a bunch of buttons it could even hold your CP on the cab.  Just a thought.

[mahuti]

Imagine the amount of effort it would take to get your panel off and on, though.

[mahuti]

For a cable free system, the best thing to me seems to be the use of edge card connectors. They're easily available, cheap, and sturdy, and they come prelabled for jamma type arcade connections.

I haven't thought of a good, cheap, easy mounting system for them yet, though. If there was some way of mounting them that provided good stability so that they would stay still when you pull a panel out, and  enough positioning flexibility, that you could quickly install them without having to have some laser perfect, tiny tolerance installation method, they'd be awesome. 

[Minwah]

For a cable free system, the best thing to me seems to be the use of edge card connectors. They're easily available, cheap, and sturdy, and they come prelabled for jamma type arcade connections.

I'd also be worried about getting them lined up or inserting the panel square enough to locate the connector without damaging it.

[Lilwolf]

You just have to remember, that you probably aren't going to have everything 'exact'.  So anything like card edges (or very small connectors) will probably have some issues.

I have 3/4" throw on the springs I use.  And try and set them so that the control panel will touch 1/2 way.  Its over kill.  After the 3rd control panel after getting everything working, I would say has a 1/4" of difference.  But it was nice that I don't have to have many items exact. 

Also, if you want them mounted on the sides or front, you may have a huge trouble seeing them with the control panel mounted.  This was a problem for a while for me.  Knowing where to mount the control panel version since I couldn't really see it.... and my head didn't fit thought the coin door

Last...

USB works GREAT for hotswap.  I have a full keyboard/mouse control panel using one.  and a few oscar hacked mice control panels.  The only problem is I get a mouse cursor whenever I switch them until I move them (which my frontend then takes as the first time it has control and then hides it again).  But I haven't removed the system mouse icon yet since I'm working on it too often. 

[Minwah]

OK I received the connectors...here's the deal:

They are very small, but the male side are springloaded and thinner than the female flat contact - this should give a bit of room for error.  The problem is that since they are designed for PCB mounting, I am not sure how to actually connect any wires to them.  Another problem is that there is no way of mounting them as such.

So they are not really ideal...however I might give them a shot anyway.  There are some small metal tabs which I think I can bend & solder the wires to.  Then I would mount the female contacts to my control panel & the male contacts to the cab using superglue.  I would then use some hot-glue to provide some stability for the wires trailing off the contacts.

I'll post some pics when I've tested it out...


Lilwolf: You could have your FE replace the system cursor with a transparent one (only while the FE is running) - that's what I do.

[Lilwolf]

btw, why not mount them on a little circuit board?  You can buy them at radio shack pretty cheap.  Then wiring them might be easier.  Heck you could probably for another 5 or so bucks put some screw in terminals on them. 

I was pretty sure that the size would make them hard to deal with.  but Iw as assuming the trouble would be that mounting a control panel, usually a 5 mm here and there should be ok.  But with something that small, it better be dead on.

As for the transparent system cursor.  How are you changing it only when the game is running?  Doing it in the batch file that you launch?  Or doing it in your app?  (I can't make any system changes from within java).    I haven't really been doing much work on my frontend for a bit.  Had some trouble getting a joystick jar working well (with swapping) and lost interest because my cab started overheating... then lost time... then started playing dungeon siege 2 and fable

[Minwah]

btw, why not mount them on a little circuit board?  You can buy them at radio shack pretty cheap.  Then wiring them might be easier.  Heck you could probably for another 5 or so bucks put some screw in terminals on them. 

That's a good point...but actually I'm not even sure how to mount them on a circuit board.  I'll take some pics of the underside and maybe you can see what to do!?

I was pretty sure that the size would make them hard to deal with.  but Iw as assuming the trouble would be that mounting a control panel, usually a 5 mm here and there should be ok.  But with something that small, it better be dead on.

I really don't think this will be a problem.  My control panels fit near-enough exactly so lining them up should be no problem, assuming I mount them in the correct place to begin with!

As for the transparent system cursor.  How are you changing it only when the game is running?  Doing it in the batch file that you launch?  Or doing it in your app?  (I can't make any system changes from within java).    I haven't really been doing much work on my frontend for a bit.  Had some trouble getting a joystick jar working well (with swapping) and lost interest because my cab started overheating... then lost time... then started playing dungeon siege 2 and fable

Using my FE...it just swaps the system cursors (normal, hourglass and arrow+hourglass) for a transparent cursor.  On exiting the FE it swaps them back.  Sounds like you probably can't do it like this in Java...I've never used it myself.

[2600]

Mounting them on a PCB may be a bit difficult.  I imagine you got the SMD version and not the thru hole version.  Finding a PCB at your local Radio Shack, or whatever you have locally, that mates to 4mm is probably going to be difficult.  If you did find one the soldering may be a pain, but not impossible.  Hard to tell from the pics.

Maybe sacrifice the ends so you can drill thru it and screw it down.  Or If you really wanted to you could layout a PCB and get a couple made.

[Minwah]

Mounting them on a PCB may be a bit difficult.  I imagine you got the SMD version and not the thru hole version.  Finding a PCB at your local Radio Shack, or whatever you have locally, that mates to 4mm is probably going to be difficult.  If you did find one the soldering may be a pain, but not impossible.  Hard to tell from the pics.

I agree.  I would probably have a hard time even finding somewhere to buy a PCB from.  And you're right I do have the SMD version...

Maybe sacrifice the ends so you can drill thru it and screw it down.  Or If you really wanted to you could layout a PCB and get a couple made.

I did consider sacrificing the ends...but it would mean I would need several more as the largest one available is only 6-way.  I know it's not ideal but I expect I can get some glue strong enough to do the job...what do you think?

[2600]

If they make a glue strong enough to hold a guy wearing a hard hat attached to a steel beam, then I'm sure you can find one strong enough for this. 

Personally, I'd want to use a non-conductive surface with a non-conductive glue.  It may be work fine otherwise, but I go the 100% way.  Especially, considering that if will be attaching things with voltages and not just a button.  If you are, I think you may be  lucky since most of your USB devices are low-speed, but the idea of it still freaks me out.  Call me shell shocked.  That then also raises the question of encoders and other things and how they will deal with this.  Buttons connections would be fine for the most part, but analog devices or 49ways, etc may not like it as much.


BTW, OT, does your FE deal with Direct Input devices dissapearing and others appearing while running?  Or are you not worried about this.

[Minwah]

Personally, I'd want to use a non-conductive surface with a non-conductive glue.  It may be work fine otherwise, but I go the 100% way.  Especially, considering that if will be attaching things with voltages and not just a button.  If you are, I think you may be  lucky since most of your USB devices are low-speed, but the idea of it still freaks me out.  Call me shell shocked.  That then also raises the question of encoders and other things and how they will deal with this.  Buttons connections would be fine for the most part, but analog devices or 49ways, etc may not like it as much.

The contacts will be stuck to wood...and at a guess most glues are not conductive so it should be OK.  Also, I am only using buttons (IPAC is in the cabinet) and USB1.  My 49-way board and mouse boards etc. will be on the panel itself, and I will use hub(s) so there will only be 1 USB connection max.  I think this should be fine.

BTW, OT, does your FE deal with Direct Input devices dissapearing and others appearing while running?  Or are you not worried about this.

Good question   I must admit I have not fully tested this.  However, for each of my swappable panels I will have a custom list setup (one for digital sticks, one for analog panel, one for yoke panel etc.) and since Mamewah can handle list-specific ctrlr files it should be OK.  The only question is whether I can change to the particular list after swapping panels (& therefore controls).

I've currently got one 95% complete panel and two 75% complete panels done so I should find out in the reasonably near future...

[mahuti]

All of this work & testing. I'm going to just switch to using multiple GP-wiz eco boads. Viva la USB!

19$ a panel. Not cheap, but neither is all of the other crap that I've purchased in little bits here and there trying to do it on the cheap. The only thing that will be tricky is having panels with multiple spinners / trackballs / rotary sticks.

I don't know. I guess I could use a combination of the cheap Wiz & Ultimarc boards depending on the panels needs.

[Minwah]

Here's a pic of the contacts:

[Major Rock Hardy]

Minwah-

you mentioned the automotive ones... I remember those from my restoration days but I can not for the life of me find them on jcwhitney or similar places... did you have links to those?

perhaps a quantity order would make them reasonable.

Thanks,
Rock

[Minwah]

you mentioned the automotive ones... I remember those from my restoration days but I can not for the life of me find them on jcwhitney or similar places... did you have links to those?

They are called 'jamb tacs', here's an example:

http://car-restoration.e-shopping-network.com/Jamb_Tac_5_Contact_Wireless_Connctrdome_lght+_4.html

As you can see, pretty prices but also due to the mounting depth required they are probably unsuitable anyway.  Then again I suppose you could use a jamb tac in the cabinet, and just make some contacts for the underside of the control panel, using screws or whatever.

[Lilwolf]

They might be ok if your dealing only with usb (5 connections only) but I have about 50 in my cabinet right now... That would cost more then just buying encoders for each control panel.

[Minwah]

They might be ok if your dealing only with usb (5 connections only) but I have about 50 in my cabinet right now... That would cost more then just buying encoders for each control panel.

I could get away with 30....I might have a search around and see how much it would cost versus the contacts I currently have.  The plus of the jamb tacs is that you wouldn't need both male & female, assuming you could make something for the springloaded contacts to butt up against.

[2600]

There was someone around here who did a DIY solution similar to this.  Forget how they did and who, it wasn't Lilwolf.

[mahuti]

I did a crappy version, and ruled it a failure. On a few contacts it worked great. If I had some sort of industrial machining it could have worked good, but it was too difficult to build things like this fast.

Does anybody know anything about wiring into a USB cable? It'd be great to wire into a usb cable and get something understandable out the other side... I don't even know the first place to start.

Some sort of board involved I would guess...

[2600]

I did a crappy version, and ruled it a failure. On a few contacts it worked great. If I had some sort of industrial machining it could have worked good, but it was too difficult to build things like this fast.

Does anybody know anything about wiring into a USB cable? It'd be great to wire into a usb cable and get something understandable out the other side... I don't even know the first place to start.

Some sort of board involved I would guess...

Did you post pictures?  I remember the thread having pictures.

I may be able to help you on the USB thing, but what do you mean "wire into a USB cable"?

[mahuti]

I'd like to be able to use USB cables, rather than ethernet, or 36 pin connectors or ribbon connectors to attach my panels to my machine.

Lemme see if I can find the thread / pictures.

[mahuti]

Relevant threads

First thread

Follow-up thread

[2600]

I'd like to be able to use USB cables, rather than ethernet, or 36 pin connectors or ribbon connectors to attach my panels to my machine.

Lemme see if I can find the thread / pictures.

Thanks for the pics.  That was the one.


I think what you are saying is different then what you are asking for.

You are saying you want to use a USB cable instead of ethernet cable, etc.  Well if that's true just chop off both ends and wire it up. No big deal.

I think what you want is a USB enocder.  The part you want modular is the USB cable instead of how you have it now, ie the button, etc connections are modular. 

You'll need a seperate encoder for each panel.  Is this what you were talking about?

[mahuti]

If I have to do it with 1 encoder per panel, that gets expensive, and may not work anyway.

I'm trying to just keep each panel down to 1 connection, and I like USB cables, so I'm idly curious about using USB cables as a connection. I could get into the specific reasons why I want to use USB cables, but it's not that important.

The problem with just cutting USB cables... I didn't think they were color coded on the inside, so using them to make multiple swappable panels would be difficult. I thought there might be some kind of cheap pre-coded cable or usb interfacing board or something out there already made that I don't know about.

[2600]

USB Cables are color coded Red, Black, White, and Green.

[Minwah]

USB Cables are color coded Red, Black, White, and Green.

Just while we're on the subject...does the outer metal screen need to be connected up (if it even has one in the cable itself)?

[2600]

USB Cables are color coded Red, Black, White, and Green.

Just while we're on the subject...does the outer metal screen need to be connected up (if it even has one in the cable itself)?

Well, the answer is a firm....it depends. 

Technically, It isn't a requirement for the system to work and it will probably be fine without it.  It is a shield used to block noise on the power, gnd and signal lines.  Some enclosures will have more noise then others.  Also, I think most of the USB devices are low speed so that may help, High-speed and Full-Speed devices would be more susceptible to noise.  Not having a 5 meter run to the PC would help and having a short run after the modular part would help.  I definitely wouldn't do it for a removable hard drive, but for this application it probably will be fine.   Make sure the shield doesn't touch any other wires.

I'm more worried about not attaching GND first, but I have a really low threshold for this.  I should probably get off my soapbox for this, but my customers are really dumb.