Author Topic: RE: New SlikStik Product (Read 8448 times)

SlikStik-Christian · « **on:** January 06, 2003, 06:31:31 pm »

All,

Thank You all for viewing our post. We have just released a new product, the SlikStik Tornado Spinner. It has been manufactured with the highest parts available and is top of the line. Some of the features include an all aluminum-extruded bracket design, dual ball bearing motion, dual optic sensors and a solid milled aluminum top. Feel free to visit our website at www.slikstik.com/spinner.htm for a closer look.

Thank You

Christian
SlikStik Customer Support
www.slikstik.com
The Worlds Best Arcade Controllers

Jakobud · « **Reply #1 on:** January 06, 2003, 06:57:50 pm »

$90...ouch. Too pricey for me. It looks very nice and study though. I'll stick with my Oscar. Sorry.

eightbit · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:09:43 pm »

At first I thought $90 was outragous. Then I priced a oscar pro, with interface your looking at $70.

How does your spinner compare to a Oscar or to other spinners. Why is yours worth the extra $$$'s?

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:10:44 pm »

WHoot !!! ^_^

The reason why so much - Quality.

Dual Bearing 'should' make that thing Zing!

I do wonder about the weight being centered in all in the center rather than spread out like tempest's design. It could effect the amount of spintime drastically.

Christian... if you give the sucker a fast spin by hand... How many seconds does it spin untill it finally is motionless?

Thanks,
Steve

www.xiaou2.homestead.com/arcade.htlm

Brax · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:15:49 pm »

The encoder wheel looks kinda small. What kind of tweaking does Mame require for good control?

SlikStik-Christian · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:19:41 pm »

Eightbit & Xiaou2,

Eightbit,
Our new spinner is top of the line. The cost is a tad bit more than others but you are getting a top quality product for your money. Look at the features for yourself on our website at www.slikstik.com/spinner.htm there are to many to list here.

Xiaou2,
You may go to sleep waiting for it to stop (haha) on a serious note the spinner has no friction at all and will spin for an extremely long time, longer than any other by far.

Thank You

Christian
SlikStik Customer Support
www.slikstik.com
The Worlds Best Arcade Controllers

Silverwind · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:19:55 pm »

It looks nice overall... like the top

I'm not familiar with spinners though so can't comment outside of that

SlikStik-Christian · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:30:45 pm »

Quote from: Brax on January 06, 2003, 07:15:49 pm

The encoder wheel looks kinda small. What kind of tweaking does Mame require for good control?

Brax,

Our encoder wheel is actually larger than you may think it has 36T, is 1.81 in diameter and host an extra long fin design.

Thank You

Christian
SlikStik Customer Support
www.slikstik.com
The Worlds Best Arcade Controllers

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:38:44 pm »

A few more things pop into question...

Is the weight 'weighted' enough? IE: if the weight is too light... you wont get that momentum effect feel. Whereas if its too heavy... it can become hard to stop the momentum. I like a nice weighted feel to my spinner : )

Now for the mounting... How do you mount it? It looks like it would be too shallow to mount under standard MDF and still have the knob stick far enough above the control panel? Also.. what are the dimmentions of the thing?

Thanks,

Steve

Kilgore · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2003, 07:56:12 pm »

Quote from: Jakobud on January 06, 2003, 06:57:50 pm

$90...ouch. Too pricey for me. It looks very nice and study though. I'll stick with my Oscar. Sorry.

This does look pretty industrial strength though I imagine that you are really paying for the "0% friction" ball bearings. This is definitely a bargain.

I think I will buy me a set so that my perpetual motion machine will be complete.

Mwuahahahaha

SlikStik-Christian · « **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2003, 08:03:14 pm »

Steve,

We think it is weighted enough, there is very little friction in the unit so less weight is needed to give a good feel.

It is mounted with 4 screws up into the bottom of the panel, the knotches in the bottom allow you to get a screwdriver to those screws.

The shaft is long enough to allow from a minimum of 1/16' to a maximum of a 1/4" space between the underside of the knob and the top face of the panel, the shaft goes into the knob about a 1/2" but really only needs to go into it about 1/4" to allow the set screws to catch. If you wanted to use it in a metal panel you could adjust the shaft to stick
out through the bottom bearing to take up the extra slack.

The knob is 2" in diameter and 3/4" thick. The spinner cage is 2 1/2" tall, and 2' by 2" on it's sides.

Thanks.

eightbit · « **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2003, 08:11:42 pm »

So who's gonna give it an unbiased side by side comparison to an Oscar?

rampy · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2003, 08:22:39 pm »

Quote from: eightbit on January 06, 2003, 08:11:42 pm

So who's gonna give it an unbiased side by side comparison to an Oscar?

I have an oscar model 3 that I haven't installed yet, and if slikstick wants to send me a review unit i'll compare and contrast =P

rampy

Thenasty · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2003, 08:58:33 pm »

Can I stop by youre store and take a look/feel the product ? I might even buy one on the spot after testing it.
One more thing, lots of us use PURE DOS, will the Cutemouse 1.8 ok with it thru ps/2 ?

Jakobud · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2003, 09:23:15 pm »

Oh I guess I wasn't paying attention. Didn't realize that it has an encoder already built in. Price isn't too bad afterall.

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2003, 09:30:38 pm »

Hmm.. another Q:

You say it uses dual optics...

Does this means its both a ps2 mouse and USB mouse at the same time?!

Because I use analog+ mame, which allows up to 4 USB mice to be used as seperate players.

http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/

If your system forces the mouse to use it as a ps2 mouse (or even ps2 and usb together)... it wont allow us to use analog+... thus we cant have more than one spinner.

If this is so... can the PS2 optic be disabled?

x-wing · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2003, 10:17:40 pm »

Looks purdy! However, the

hyiu · « **Reply #17 on:** January 07, 2003, 09:54:50 am »

I have a question about the new spinner....

First, it looks very nice and from the picture, it looks like its made of 1st grade quality parts...

I'm planning to have a trackball and a spinner on my panel.... and 1 thing I am always thinking is....

can the spinner be someway modded so that it will also work as a push button ??...

you know... tron.... forgotten world....
if I'm going to get a spinner.... I might want that....

also.... I don't think I'll get an rotary joystick.....
but for tron / tank setup, I might actually have 2 trigger sticks.... (plus spinner in middle)....

1 way for me to play rotary joystick game is using the trigger stick with spinner.... (then, either trigger stick has 2 buttons... or the spinner has 1...) then I still can play ikrai warrior or games of that type.... (well.... won't feel like "original" arcade....) but I'll have to live with what's available with limited resources....

for me....feels like real game or not is not most important... but is the game playable is more important....

Thanks,

Brax · « **Reply #18 on:** January 07, 2003, 10:22:02 am »

Quote from: SlikStik-Christian on January 06, 2003, 07:30:45 pm

Quote from: Brax on January 06, 2003, 07:15:49 pm
The encoder wheel looks kinda small. What kind of tweaking does Mame require for good control?

Brax,

Our encoder wheel is actually larger than you may think it has 36T, is 1.81 in diameter and host an extra long fin design.

Thank You

Christian
SlikStik Customer Support
www.slikstik.com
The Worlds Best Arcade Controllers

Only 36 teeth? the Oscar Pro has 2 1/2 times the teeth. What about backspin? Is that why you implemented the dual optics? That seems like more of a minus than a plus to me. We NEED all those interfaces. To use two on one device seems like a real waste.

Also, zero friction worries me as well. A spinner is all about quick direction change. A little weight feels good but you need to be able to change direction quickly as well. Spining forever isn't neccesarily a good thing.

It sounds like you've tried to make a good product but it seems a little misdirected as well. I'll need to hear several reviews to make my decision between yours and a Pro.

rampy · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2003, 11:01:19 am »

Quote from: Brax on January 07, 2003, 10:22:02 am

Quote from: SlikStik-Christian on January 06, 2003, 07:30:45 pm
Quote from: Brax on January 06, 2003, 07:15:49 pm
The encoder wheel looks kinda small. What kind of tweaking does Mame require for good control?

Brax,

Our encoder wheel is actually larger than you may think it has 36T, is 1.81 in diameter and host an extra long fin design.

Thank You

Christian
SlikStik Customer Support
www.slikstik.com
The Worlds Best Arcade Controllers

Only 36 teeth? the Oscar Pro has 2 1/2 times the teeth. What about backspin? Is that why you implemented the dual optics? That seems like more of a minus than a plus to me. We NEED all those interfaces. To use two on one device seems like a real waste.

Also, zero friction worries me as well. A spinner is all about quick direction change. A little weight feels good but you need to be able to change direction quickly as well. Spining forever isn't neccesarily a good thing.

It sounds like you've tried to make a good product but it seems a little misdirected as well. I'll need to hear several reviews to make my decision between yours and a Pro.

Hey brax,

a few comments on your comments:

I think you're comparing apples and oranges a bit... I'm guessing the slikstick spinner is probably more comprable to an oscar model 3 being that it is compact. Comparing the number of teeth on the Oscar Pro and this model isn't really fair/applicable IMHO... (you don't compare a full sized sedan with a 2 door coupe)

I wish they'd clarify the dual optics thing myself: what I took it to mean is that they have dual optics wired in such a way as to "oversample" and prevent backspin, not necessarily 1 dedicated to one interface (ps/2) and the other to another (USB)...

The plus side of a near frictionless spin is that you'll be able to change directions easier (i think phsyics wasn't my strongest suit - but i think I'm right on this)... but playtesting would better verify that... although as stated earlier sometimes its a feel thing =P

Reviews can be helpful and I'll repeat my offer to do a slickstick spinner review if they want to send me a review model (meaning I'd return it after the review - unless it was a gift =P )

More MAME/home arcade niche targeted products/companies is a good thing (tm) ...

Rampy

PS note i'm just playing advocate: I've purchased from Oscarcontrols before, and think Oscar is a great contributor/guy to the scene... but think we should give Slickstick spinner a fair shake - it looks like they may have made some design improvements.

Brax · « **Reply #20 on:** January 07, 2003, 12:41:35 pm »

Yeah, i still have my concerns about the optics...

As for directional change.. Objects in motion tend to remain in motion.. requiring an opposite and equal reaction... blah blah blah.

zero friction (um yeah... nice perpetual motion machine you have there hehe) and a large flywheel makes for harder change of direction. That carbon weight looks pretty hefty....

It looks like great intentions and high quality parts, I'm just not sold that the end result is quite what we need.

I think theres going to plenty of people missing fingerprints when the knurled knob grinds them off when you try and stop that thing.

Lilwolf · « **Reply #21 on:** January 07, 2003, 01:12:17 pm »

Brax, I think you are looking for an arkanoid spinner. These have no weights. Many of the others (most of the others.. Tempest, MajorHavoc, Tron, ect. All have weights). This is truely what spinners (other then arkanoid) should feel like.

Look at the Oscar ones.

I'm curious about the dual optics and if they reduce the rollback in a smaller flywheel.

Great job... but still, $90 is a little two steep for me right now. But I might consider it later.

rampy · « **Reply #22 on:** January 07, 2003, 01:17:21 pm »

Quote from: Brax on January 07, 2003, 12:41:35 pm

As for directional change.. Objects in motion tend to remain in motion.. requiring an opposite and equal reaction... blah blah blah.

sorry to be petty... but what I was thinking was... you have to deal with applying greater than equal/opposite energy to overcome the inertia anyways... (whether be by bushing or bearing holding the spinner shaft)

My half-baked theory was that when reversing your spin you'd have to also overcome friction as well as momentum (but that same friction is also slowing down the spinner... so... maybe it's 1/2 dozen 6 to the other)

besides you wouldn't be whizing it in gameplay anyways - but it all goes back to a feel thing and currently no one (besides the propieters of slikstik spinners) really knows how it feels or performs in game situations...

rampy

Ps sorry for being nit picky - i must really want to hear myself type today =P

RandyT · « **Reply #23 on:** January 07, 2003, 02:20:01 pm »

Quote from: rampy on January 07, 2003, 01:17:21 pm

sorry to be petty... but what I was thinking was... you have to deal with applying greater than equal/opposite energy to overcome the inertia anyways... (whether be by bushing or bearing holding the spinner shaft)

My half-baked theory was that when reversing your spin you'd have to also overcome friction as well as momentum (but that same friction is also slowing down the spinner... so... maybe it's 1/2 dozen 6 to the other)

besides you wouldn't be whizing it in gameplay anyways - but it all goes back to a feel thing and currently no one (besides the propieters of slikstik spinners) really knows how it feels or performs in game situations...

I think you guys are saying essentially the same thing. If the object is in motion, it takes less force to keep it in motion. If you have friction (you always have some), the friction will cause the object to slow down more quickly, thus requiring less energy to reverse the direction, as the energy is being absorbed by the friction when no positive force is appled.

Taking this into account, less friction and a heavy counterweight to store the energy does not mean a better spinner. However, if these two factors are weighed carefully enough against each other and balanced accordingly, you will have one dandy device!

But this just covers the physical properties. The thing I would be the most concerned about is whether or not 36 teeth is going to be sufficient to give the speed and resoution that makes for a smooth game. After my recent ordeal with the betson trackballs, I am of the mindset that more is always better when it comes to resolution. You can always reduce the speed of movement in software with high-res encoders, but increasing speed on a low-res encoder almost always gives poor results.

But everyone should reserve judgment until there is at least a review on the device from someone whose opinion you value (or you actually try one)

RandyT

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2003, 02:22:48 pm »

I have built a dual bearing spinner (tho not to that degree of quality)... and one without bearings. I can say that I liked the bearing feel much better than without.

On games like supersprint... turbo, and some others... you have to whip that the spinner arround fast... let it glide arround a few times... then stop it at the desired position.

If theres too much friction... its hard to get the thing to spin fast enough to make the corners tight.

Also.. a friend of mine has a disc's of tron.. and to me... I think it feels a little too heavy to move accurately - from the friction. Its like dragging a stone slab behind you when you walk. It could definitely use ball bearings for a smoother and more accurate ride.

Supersprint used large wheels as the weights... so it wasnt as nessessary for true ball bearings... tho it probably would have helped. My turbo has bearings tho... and its beautiful.

As for the weight... yup... most all games use the weight to help maintain a good spin. Its easy to overcome the force because your hand is larger than the spinners diameter (leverage)... and your much stronger.

x-wing · « **Reply #25 on:** January 07, 2003, 06:10:13 pm »

Now that I look at it closer, I wonder if the

Silverwind · « **Reply #26 on:** January 07, 2003, 06:21:18 pm »

A review would be great... Is slickstick willing to donate one for a review? Or if someone has ordered one.. to review it..

AGarv · « **Reply #27 on:** January 08, 2003, 10:24:29 am »

Looks very, very nice. IMO peeps here can get a little carried away with talk about encoder wheels and "resolution." My hard drive spinner just has a mouse encoder wheel with probably no more than 32 teeth, and I've yet to experience backspin during gameplay. Yeah if you spin it with all your might in one direction, there's backspin. But unless you're using this to play the "Wheel of Fortune" arcade game, you're not going to be doing this.

The "spin test" is IMO more to determine just how well aligned/machined the spinner is, and as such holds merit.

Oscar has a good product, good rep, and obviously a lot of die-hard loyalists (evidenced in part by the many petty jabs against the slikstik product in this thread). That all adds up to significant brand equity on the part of Oscar spinners. This is a very good design and a fair price given the materials and quality of construction, but good luck selling them.

SlikStik-Christian · « **Reply #28 on:** January 08, 2003, 11:07:28 am »

All,

Great to see all your opinions. The funny thing is no one has even seen one yet. We did not once say to rush out and buy one, or trade your Oscar in for one. Hell, he has very good spinners and we did use them in all our panels.

We only released this news for the simple fact that it is a new product and some people do like to have more than one choice when looking to buy something.

"Dual Optic Clarification" it seems that there are many questions about what mean by dual optics. First, our Tornado spinner currently uses the "Happ PCB-A encoder Board" directly out of their trackballs. In many older mice/encoder pick up boards there was an "Emitter" and a "2 Collectors" and when the wheel or encoder wheel passed through the emitter it broke either the (left or right) collector thus telling the board which direction you were rolling. Not that it is anything revolutionary but the Happ Optical board uses the newer technology and has 2 optic emitters (dispensers) and 2 optic collectors making for a cleaner pickup. We could have went in the other direction and purchased a cheap PS2 USB mouse with old technology, hacked it up and used that but we felt that it makes for better game play the way things are now.

Thank You

Christian
SlikStik Customer Support
www.slikstik.com
The Worlds Best Arcade Controllers

RandyT · « **Reply #29 on:** January 08, 2003, 11:19:56 am »

Quote from: AGarv on January 08, 2003, 10:24:29 am

Looks very, very nice. IMO peeps here can get a little carried away with talk about encoder wheels and "resolution." My hard drive spinner just has a mouse encoder wheel with probably no more than 32 teeth, and I've yet to experience backspin during gameplay.

Oscar has a good product, good rep, and obviously a lot of die-hard loyalists (evidenced in part by the many petty jabs against the slikstik product in this thread).

I think you are missing the point. A larger number of teeth (apertures) on an encoder does not reduce the chances of backspin, rather increases it. You see, the larger number of apertures, the faster the cpu has to sample. The backspin problem results when the the apertures are traveling past the optical sensors faster than the cpu can properly sense what is happening.

Therefore, it shouldn't be any surprise that you haven't experienced the backspin problem with an encoder having only 32 apertures. It doesn't take much computing muscle to keep that under control.

In the real world of computer mice and such, the trend has always been to provide a higher resolution device. This means encoders with as many as 100 or more apertures. This is to provide a smoother, more accurate cursor movement, without the "jumpiness" caused by low-res encoders.

How this relates to gaming is going to depend on the game in question. If you have to increase the sensitivity of the spinner for the control to feel right during gameplay, chances are your encoder doesn't have enough resolution, and the quality of play will suffer.

But if you are happy with the way things work, that's fine too! I'm just trying to give a bit of a technical viewpoint on the technology in general, and it shouldn't be seen as a "jab" against anyone's products, as it is not intended to be such.

RandyT

Thenasty · « **Reply #30 on:** January 08, 2003, 12:37:11 pm »

Chris, I am ready to get one and like to come over your place to buy it on the spot. My question is, does it work in DOS using Cutemouse driver ?

Brax · « **Reply #31 on:** January 08, 2003, 03:18:05 pm »

Quote from: SlikStik-Christian on January 08, 2003, 11:07:28 am

All,

Great to see all your opinions. The funny thing is no one has even seen one yet. We did not once say to rush out and buy one, or trade your Oscar in for one. Hell, he has very good spinners and we did use them in all our panels.

We only released this news for the simple fact that it is a new product and some people do like to have more than one choice when looking to buy something.

Considering we're not your average consumer (we're builders as well) you'd think you'd value our opinion a bit more.... Afterall, you're trying to sell to us. Optic resolution vs price vs. weight are all valid concerns. Considering many people here have direct hands on experience with such things, discounting their opinions isn't terribly logical.

Quote

"Dual Optic Clarification" it seems that there are many questions about what mean by dual optics. First, our Tornado spinner currently uses the "Happ PCB-A encoder Board" directly out of their trackballs. In many older mice/encoder pick up boards there was an "Emitter" and a "2 Collectors" and when the wheel or encoder wheel passed through the emitter it broke either the (left or right) collector thus telling the board which direction you were rolling. Not that it is anything revolutionary but the Happ Optical board uses the newer technology and has 2 optic emitters (dispensers) and 2 optic collectors making for a cleaner pickup. We could have went in the other direction and purchased a cheap PS2 USB mouse with old technology, hacked it up and used that but we felt that it makes for better game play the way things are now.

So does it use a USB port or PS/2? Or Either? or Both?

x-wing · « **Reply #32 on:** January 09, 2003, 12:26:39 am »

Quote from: SlikStik-Christian on January 08, 2003, 11:07:28 am

"Dual Optic Clarification" it seems that there are many questions about what mean by dual optics. First, our Tornado spinner currently uses the "Happ PCB-A encoder Board" directly out of their trackballs. In many older mice/encoder pick up boards there was an "Emitter" and a "2 Collectors" and when the wheel or encoder wheel passed through the emitter it broke either the (left or right) collector thus telling the board which direction you were rolling. Not that it is anything revolutionary but the Happ Optical board uses the newer technology and has 2 optic emitters (dispensers) and 2 optic collectors making for a cleaner pickup. We could have went in the other direction and purchased a cheap PS2 USB mouse with old technology, hacked it up and used that but we felt that it makes for better game play the way things are now.

Yep, that

eightbit · « **Reply #33 on:** January 09, 2003, 08:53:19 am »

Quote from: x-wing on January 09, 2003, 12:26:39 am

So far, the questions of a technical nature like: Can it use the y-axis, use both interfaces simultaneously, does it support mouse buttons, does it work with the Cute mouse driver, and so on, have gone unanswered. These are questions that you should be able to quickly and clearly give answers to since you have designed “the best spinner in the world” (from your website).

I was also thingking it was odd that the simple questions went unanswered.

SlikStik-Christian · « **Reply #34 on:** January 09, 2003, 11:50:13 am »

All,

We value all opinions; if any of our posts came off as dismissals then they were misread.

If we do not answer questions fast enough it is only because we either did not get to the board, or want to think about the answer and post a well thought reply. In addition, some of the questions we simply do not have the answers to, when that happens we have to research it.

When we say we have the

Howard_Casto · « **Reply #35 on:** January 10, 2003, 01:09:33 pm »

This is a somewhat unbiased opinion (check my url and guess

) But here's what i think at first glance, not to be offending either seller.

The slick stick is definately sturdier and is built for the long haul. Oscar's spinners look slapped together compared to how well this one is built.

Unfortunately I think it's a bit "over-desigend." A ball bearing spinner is overkill for any game i've ever seen as the games don't want the spinner to spin forever... as a mattter of fact, after a second or two the "cursor" (excuse my lack of terminology here) will reach the end of the screen. A good spinner has a good blanace so that spins freely, but is easy to stop without putting a hard hand to it. I think Switching directions might cause a bit more "back wobble" on this spinner than usual as you would have to physically stop it, which might be hard after it's built up some speed.

Also the encoder wheel ratio seems a tad small to me. The model 3 would almost definaely be more accurate. The accuracy of this spinner looks to be comparable to the model 1.

But this is just from looking at the pictures so it's just speculation.

Also regarding the price, considering how much money would have to be spent to create one of those it's about right, but as I said, I think some of that durability and smoothness is overkill.

Now what this rig would be good for is a steering wheel. Wheels put a lot of pressure on the shaft and that bearing on the end would definately keep it in line and running smoothly if you could manage a way to mount it on your cp.

Just my 2 cents.


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