Author Topic: Using a MAME machine for charity fund raising? (Read 8134 times)

DarkSoul1 · « **on:** July 11, 2005, 11:53:18 pm »

My work's social club is soon to start charity support for the local children's hospital. I'm providing a pinball machine to help raise funds but it's been suggested I put a mame unit in as well.

Anyone see problems with using my mame unit to raise funds for a charity? All procedes would go to the charity, none to me or the social club.

Q*Bert_OP · « **Reply #1 on:** July 11, 2005, 11:58:21 pm »

IMNAL, but you can't charge people to play mame...

Thenasty · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2005, 12:00:40 am »

just use legal ROMS that you have just to be in the safe side or the funds you collect might end up in court fees

DreamWeb · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2005, 12:14:22 am »

Quote from: Thenasty on July 12, 2005, 12:00:40 am

just use legal ROMS that you have just to be in the safe side or the funds you collect might end up in court fees
Play it safe....Doing good deeds does not mean its ok to do illegal activities.

Are you sure? Superheroes do it all the time!!

elvis · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2005, 04:00:22 am »

Quote from: Thenasty on July 12, 2005, 12:00:40 am

just use legal ROMS that you have just to be in the safe side or the funds you collect might end up in court fees
Play it safe....Doing good deeds does not mean its ok to do illegal activities.

An analogy: I get a non-original copy of a movie off the internet, and charge all my friends $5 to see it. I then give away the money to charity.

Whether the intentions are good or not, you are still not allowed to use illegal means for monetary gain, even if you give the money away.

As mentioned, use legal ROMs, or cheap JAMMA boards off ebay. Play it legal, and keep both yourself, the social club and the hospital out of trouble.

With that said, you make an excellent suggestion. I wonder if I can get my work to sponsor a cheap JAMMA cab for the local kid's hospital? Charge $1 a credit, and give it all away. That would be super - gaming for a noble cause.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2005, 08:37:17 am »

Quote from: Thenasty on July 12, 2005, 12:00:40 am

just use legal ROMS that you have just to be in the safe side or the funds you collect might end up in court fees
Play it safe....Doing good deeds does not mean its ok to do illegal activities.

Nope - the MAME license says you cannot charge people to play MAME. Doesn't matter whether the ROMS are legal or not, it would still be a violation of the license. For that matter, I think Starroms has a license for "personal home use" or sth, so you're probalby in trouble with them as well.

Three options -

If you put MAME on it, I doubt anyone is going to be able to check it out - maybe the tax collectors and regulators that keep up with regular arcade machines - you might want to check into that aspect.

Technically, I think you could run Retrocade or RAINE on it for pay and not violate the MAME license, although you still would probably be violating the copyrights on the ROMS, IMHO.

To be really legal, you would probably need a dedicated machine - i.e. arcade PCB, no computer, etc. Even then, there may be local licensing tax and other regulations.

Thenasty · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2005, 09:20:59 am »

I was thinking of a fund raiser that people pay at the entrance and can do all the ativities inside such as unlimited drinks, cookies, play games etc. at no additional cost.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2005, 09:26:47 am »

Quote from: Thenasty on July 12, 2005, 09:20:59 am

I was thinking of a fund raiser that people pay at the entrance and can do all the ativities inside such as unlimited drinks, cookies, play games etc. at no additional cost.

Not sure that's what the OP meant, but that's somewhat taboo also.

It's basically a variation of the idea discussed in other threads of a bar or pizzaria installing a machine on free play - it still increases their profits and is therefore "charging" for MAME even if indirectly.

DarkSoul1 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2005, 10:31:40 am »

Hmmm, I think it's not worth the risk with the MAME unit. I'll just stick with the pinball machine.

Especially since the social club/work is in the law enforcement field.

: )

Crazy Cooter · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2005, 11:42:20 am »

Quote from: DarkSoul1 on July 12, 2005, 10:31:40 am

Hmmm, I think it's not worth the risk with the MAME unit.

BarontheFirst · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2005, 05:40:54 pm »

Quote from: Tiger-Heli on July 12, 2005, 09:26:47 am

Quote from: Thenasty on July 12, 2005, 09:20:59 am
I was thinking of a fund raiser that people pay at the entrance and can do all the ativities inside such as unlimited drinks, cookies, play games etc. at no additional cost.
Not sure that's what the OP meant, but that's somewhat taboo also.

It's basically a variation of the idea discussed in other threads of a bar or pizzaria installing a machine on free play - it still increases their profits and is therefore "charging" for MAME even if indirectly.

So your saying if I have a party charge 5 bucks a head at the door and the ppl play my M.A.M.E cabinet I am charging or making money off my MAME cabinet? It also has working coin doors so I guess I am in alot of trouble!

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2005, 05:55:06 pm »

Quote from: BarontheFirst on July 12, 2005, 05:40:54 pm

So your saying if I have a party charge 5 bucks a head at the door and the ppl play my M.A.M.E cabinet I am charging or making money off my MAME cabinet? It also has working coin doors so I guess I am in alot of trouble!

I never said you were in a lot of trouble. But yes, you are probably in violation of the MAME usage license. (Especially, if the people would have been less likely to come to the party if they didn't know the MAME cabinet would be there).

I.E. if these people were coming over for drinks and didn't know you had a MAME cabinet (you didn't mention it on the invitations and they didn't know you), and then they played the cabinet - probably you're in the clear.

You tell people - Hey come by Friday and for $5 you can play my MAME cab and shoot pool, or you mention the party and people say "Hey, BarontheFirst has a cool MAME cab that we can play, let's pay our $5 and go", you're probably in violation of the license.

BarontheFirst · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2005, 06:24:17 pm »

Ya but isn't it a violation for the mere fact you have to pay to play my machine. Even if I am the one popping in the quarters it is still paying for MAME.

So can't I infact say that putting in quarters isn't paying for MAME but it is paying for the power to run it all and the upkeep?

Crazy Cooter · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2005, 09:23:26 pm »

Quote from: BarontheFirst on July 12, 2005, 06:24:17 pm

Ya but isn't it a violation for the mere fact you have to pay to play my machine. Even if I am the one popping in the quarters it is still paying for MAME.

So can't I infact say that putting in quarters isn't paying for MAME but it is paying for the power to run it all and the upkeep?

- If it's quarters from your pocket going in the machine and the quarters go back into your pocket, then you're not paying for anything.

- If some one is paying because the game is there (whether the $ goes to electricity or otherwise) then they are paying for the game. So no, you can't infact say that.

Try that arguement with the police by charging $5.00 per guest for electricity and upkeep of your DVD player with rented movies...

BurningDog · « **Reply #14 on:** July 14, 2005, 05:50:46 am »

The short answer is that it should be ok as long as you don't get caught (first step to this would be not posting about it on an arcade forum, but its still highly unlikely).

The legal answer is that you're probably committing copyright infringement if you're using roms you don't legally own and breaking a license agreement by using mame in a commercial activity. Both of these would be civil violations, not criminal, and you'd have to get sued for damages, which would be hard to prove that there were any.

paigeoliver · « **Reply #15 on:** July 14, 2005, 06:57:34 am »

Is it in violation of the Mame license?

Yes.

Is the Mame license even even remotely enforcable outside of ebay.

No.

Do the police care about copyright violation?

None that I have ever met cared at all. They seem as uncaring about this issue as the average guy on the street.

Has there ever even been a case of an operator getting sued for operating bootleg games? I have seen the suckers on location my whole life, never heard of ANYTHING happening from it.

Lilwolf · « **Reply #16 on:** July 14, 2005, 07:33:17 am »

btw, I've heard the mame team (pretty sure, while ago) saying that they didn't think having a MAME cab in a comminuty center (like boys club or something) was a bad thing. As long as it didn't take coins.

But ethically its wrong. I know it is (and have justified it to myself). But its not really the best thing for an organization to endorse.

Also, MAME isn't who you have to watch out for. (just disrespectful to go against their wishes). The ROM holders are the issue. they are the ones who would go after you. There are no legal commercial roms available outside of paying a LOT for a cab (think Dave Foley)

Bill Mote · « **Reply #17 on:** July 14, 2005, 08:38:52 am »

Have you ever heard, "no good deed goes unpunished?" Don't do it. The wrong person will see the cabinet and start asking questions.

dot

kcorcoran · « **Reply #18 on:** July 14, 2005, 01:16:32 pm »

... asking questions like...

dude.. can you build me one of those?

man.. how much would you charge me to build one of those?

can i buy this one from you?

is anyone paying taxes at yard sales? no. put them all in jail.
ever make a turn without using your signal? throw you in jail.

i dunno. there's a lot of higher authority running around on this site but the reality is that 99.9% of the people on this board were infringing copyrights the day they hit "5" on the keyboard and coined up their first game or space invaders, ms pacman or whatever.

let's all just delete the roms folder on our machines... all together now..

3... 2.... 1.... DELETED.

er.
how about no.

do whatever it is you think you can get away with. it's what makes the world go 'round.

Tiger-Heli · « **Reply #19 on:** July 14, 2005, 01:29:49 pm »

Quote from: kcorcoran on July 14, 2005, 01:16:32 pm

i dunno. there's a lot of higher authority running around on this site but the reality is that 99.9% of the people on this board were infringing copyrights the day they hit "5" on the keyboard and coined up their first game or space invaders, ms pacman or whatever.

If you're referring to me, I never claimed whether I was or wasn't infinging on copyrights. The OP asked if there were problems with this, and there are possible problems with the MAME license and the ROM copyrights. I didn't even say he shouldn't do it b/c of this. Just answering the question as posed.

If you ask me if you owe taxes on a yard sale - of course, if you made more on the sale of the item than you originally paid for it and don't depreciate the losses on the other items. If you ask if you will go to jail if you don't report it, that's a different question.

Bill Mote · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2005, 01:52:48 pm »

I'll expand a little on your post ... it's not whether you'll go to jail if you don't report it, but whether you'll get caught. The people that visit your yard sale aren't likely to follow up with you on or about 4/15 to see if you claimed your income from the sale.

An arcade cabinet used as a charity fundraiser will have a much larger crowd. All it takes is the wrong person to recognize AND report you.

Lets say the "wrong" person does see your cabinet and decides to report you to say Midway. Midway decides to press charges since you're using their game rom to earn money whether it's for a good cause or not. You know what the first indication will be that you're being sued? The police showing up at your house with a warrant to confiscate all of your computer equipment and your arcade. It's all evidence. Is *all* your software on all your PCs licensed? I hope so. What do you think will happen when they find 5,000+ roms on your system?

Will it happen? Not likely. Is it worth the risk? IMO; no.

RayB · « **Reply #21 on:** July 14, 2005, 02:54:23 pm »

Nothing will happen.

StephenH · « **Reply #22 on:** July 14, 2005, 10:48:04 pm »

I would check to see if this qualifies as an exception to the MAME license, by requesting over at MAMEDEV.com

Additionally, I would stick with legal ROMs. Some game companies may not mind if it is used for charity, but I would check out anyway.

Bones · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2005, 11:51:44 pm »

Personally I think your idea is good and your heart is in the right place, but that doesn't make it right.

There was a similar topic posted some time ago. It turned into a big crap-fight but still some useful stuff amongst it you might be interested in.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=29292.0

Cheers.

Stobe · « **Reply #24 on:** July 15, 2005, 06:11:04 am »

A better idea for a fund raiser would be to auction off an arcade cab. Get your social club biddies together and build a cab, then start the auction price at the cost it took to build. Of course, subtract out your cost when its sold.

Perhaps a bartop would be more suitable for a charity auction. Easier for the winner to transport, therefore more marketable. Cheap to build, etc. Besides, everyone needs a bartop in their house!

-Stobe

AlanS17 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 15, 2005, 11:37:08 am »

Quote from: Stobe on July 15, 2005, 06:11:04 am

Perhaps a bartop would be more suitable for a charity auction.

Bill Mote · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2005, 12:30:47 pm »

I'd say think bigger picture here ... keep the focus off our "community." There's no real driver for anyone to care about us. The Mame emulator team hasn't faced any grief because no one is focused on them. The roms are readily available because we haven't given anyone a reason to stop their distribution.

Before we start knashing at the teeth about legal this and legal; think about something as simple as "commercial skipping" and how it affected ReplyTV. It doesn't matter what you and I think. What matters is how this whole thing could play out in the media if someone made a big brew-ha-ha about how all these people are stealing games and making money.

ChadTower · « **Reply #27 on:** July 15, 2005, 01:30:53 pm »

I'll go a bit further and say that the only thing that matters here, or ever really, is who has more money for legal costs.

Dartful Dodger · « **Reply #28 on:** July 15, 2005, 05:01:46 pm »

Remeber:
No good deed goes unpunished.

juggle50 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 15, 2005, 05:45:07 pm »

I think I disagree with everyone. This is a charity event is for a "children's hospital" It sounds like the money goes to help kids with cancer and lukimia and stuff. I think those things are more important than "our community" If we can do some good with our hobby then I think that's really cool. I understand that technically it's illigal. Just like copying a vhs tape and burning a cd for our friend. Everyone in this forum sort of skirts around the law with our own copys of roms. But for crying out loud it's for sick kids. Nobody is going to report it, and nobody is really going to care. If an arcade company does have a problem with it, it's really bad PR for them sue a function dedicated to helping children.

Please don't misunderstand me, I think doing it for profit is wrong. And if the function is a big media event then I might think twice about doing it. But I think a little bit of "robin hood" is okay now and then.

hanelyp · « **Reply #30 on:** July 15, 2005, 06:41:02 pm »

If you wish to use MAME for something not allowed by the license, you could ask for an exemption on charitable grounds. My impression is that the restrictions on the MAME license are mostly to deal with people using the software in an illicit manner.

u_rebelscum · « **Reply #31 on:** July 15, 2005, 07:16:40 pm »

Quote from: juggle50 on July 15, 2005, 05:45:07 pm

It sounds like the money goes to help kids with cancer and lukimia and stuff.... I understand that technically it's illigal.

So it's okay to sell drugs to raise money for cancer kids?

IMO, it's NOT the same level as using mame to raise money, sure. But all it takes is one person who does think it's the same level, and you, your group, and the hospital are in trouble. The person doesn't even need to show up; just hear it from a friend of a friend.

One person. Thinks.

Not the risk, IMO.

juggle50 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 15, 2005, 07:35:55 pm »

Of course selling drugs is not the same thing and I think it's ridiculous to think anybody would think it is. I just don't think people would care that much. If someone did care I don't they would act on it because it's charitable. I like the idea of asking mame for an exemption.

monkeybomb · « **Reply #33 on:** July 15, 2005, 07:54:34 pm »

Quote from: juggle50 on July 15, 2005, 07:35:55 pm

I like the idea of asking mame for an exemption.

Remember that MAME is just a driver. Mamedev can't grant permission to use ROMS they don't own the license to. You would still have to have the PCBs onsite for the ROMS you were using AND have the MAME permission to use their drivers, if it were going to be that clean.

I really don't see the "sky is falling" point of view on this one. If you did it and got caught by...well I'll just say The Man, then he'd probably just make you remove the machine from the location. You could also try the "Donation" angle. each play requires a .25 cent donation to the charity. I'd just do it myself. I also give MAME disks to poor children already, but that's just me.

thetered · « **Reply #34 on:** July 16, 2005, 12:34:46 pm »

I don't know how well it really holds up in a court of law, but there are places around here (mostly no name convenience stores) that have those poker machines and give product with the winning credit. But to get around the gambling thing they have a basket of cheap candy on top of the machine with a sign that says something like "have a piece of candy for 25 cents and enjoy a free game [of poker]"

Crazy Cooter · « **Reply #35 on:** July 16, 2005, 12:53:52 pm »

If you need to skirt around laws to do something, do you really think it's a good idea to place it in public view? If "something" happens, then lawyers will have to sort it all out. Do you have money for the lawyers?

Do you want to drag the same entity you're trying to help into a legal battle? If (and it is possible) "something" happens, you'd cause more harm than good.

elvis · « **Reply #36 on:** July 16, 2005, 10:09:43 pm »

Quote from: juggle50 on July 15, 2005, 05:45:07 pm

But I think a little bit of "robin hood" is okay now and then.

I couldn't agree more. However, I'm not willing to risk fines or jail time to make a point. Both of which affect more than just me - my family would suffer too.

The world is ruled by corporates and their lawyers. And I'm the first to admit I'm too much of a coward to try and tackle either head on.

quarterback · « **Reply #37 on:** July 17, 2005, 01:32:29 am »

Quote from: Crazy Cooter on July 16, 2005, 12:53:52 pm

juggle50 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 17, 2005, 03:53:07 pm »

Yeah, I understand what you guys are saying. I just think there is breaking the law: robbing a convenient store and breaking the law: Jaywalking. And I think this falls closer to the jaywalking category. I really think the very worse case scenario is that you are asked to remove the machine or told not to do it again. But realistically nobody is going to care. No one is going to put you in jail for a small to moderately sized fundraiser for a children's hospital. People just don't go to prison for that. I'm no rebel or vigilante, I just cross the street every once in a while when there is a red light and no cars are coming.

eggedd2k · « **Reply #39 on:** July 17, 2005, 04:27:47 pm »

depends how much you like taking risks. on one hand it's obviously illegal. on the other hand though it'll be unlikely you ever get into trouble. you could just say you wasnt aware that it was dodgy.

just my opinion


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