GunCon2 on PC-monitor

[tivogre]

Call me lazy, but does Andy plan on selling pre-wired Guncon to PC chips? With shipping from the UK so expensive I'd almost rather pay extra for a finished product than going to my local shop to get the needed capacitor and resister and deal with soldering again.
Joseph Elwell.

I can't speak for Andy, but I would think that there would be a market for such an item.  Especially if it had a couple of PS2 ports (with power) and came with a VGA cable that made it "plug and play" with a pair of Guncons.

[Cananas]

Andy has updated the wiring diagram for this application on his site, tying pins 2 and 4 to ground

Connected to ground. Sorry, it doesn't work for me

The capacitor is also diferent: 16uF->100nF

Next step is to change the capacitor, but i think that is not important.

I would think that there would be a market for such an item.  Especially if it had a couple of PS2 ports (with power) and came with a VGA cable that made it "plug and play" with a pair of Guncons.

Yes, I agree. Andy, here there is one buyer...

[jjd]

I would think that there would be a market for such an item.  Especially if it had a couple of PS2 ports (with power) and came with a VGA cable that made it "plug and play" with a pair of Guncons.

Yes, I agree. Andy, here there is one buyer...

I'll second that.

[rbarr110]

From what I am reading is this what tivogore thought he was building?

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/smogdragon/VideoCon3.htm

Anyone successfully built this yet other than Andy at Ultimarc?

[fl0yd]

I'm pretty close to buying a J-Pac to give this a shot, anyone have a used one for sale so I don't have to buy a brand new one?

[tivogre]

I have 3 of the JPAC small chips on order;  as soon as they arrive, I will be building this.

I will post my results here and on my web site.

[fl0yd]

Thanks for pointing out the upgrade chip, I'd missed that part of your post.

I have one on the way too, and will post my results once I've built the circuit.

[Mad Dog]

Hi everyone!

I got a J-Pac chip and build the circuit using the old capacitor...
I put down all my tsting results at Smogs's forum (http://www.freeforumzone.com/viewmessaggi.aspx?f=66424&idd=74)
So far I am not too convinced... it does not seem like a driver issue though. What confuses me most is that e.g. in 800x600, the gun only responds in the upper right hand corner. I can easily tell, because when my gun reads something it switches on the laserpointer automatically...
...
I will try some more resolutions, frequencies etc soon and keep you updated...
But would be good to hear some more from the people who got their guns to work!
What setup, resolutions did you guys use? I am curious! I am far away from playing point blank on my monitor...

[tivogre]

I got my 3 JPAC small chips today.

Now I just have to track down the 680 Ohm resistor and .1 uF capacitor.

I ultimately intend to build this circuite and my 9v / 5v output circuit on one board.

I'll let you guys know when I'm done, and how it works out!

[AndyWarne]

Some updates on this:
First, many resolutions on ordinary VGA cards produce negative sync. The standard J-PAC chip wont divide this properly so I have revised it and produced a special Guncon chip for experimentation. Anyone who has ordered the standard J-PAC chip for this purpose, please drop me an email.
About marketing a product for this: I started to lay out a PCB but put this on hold. The reason is, if selling a product, customers would expect support for it. This means I would need to "own" the solution. The driver is not mine to "own" , but even if I were to come to some arrangement about that aspect, I would not feel confident to guarantee the board would work properly, owing to too much of the solution being outside my control. Thats why I want to support people who want to experiment with this, but don't intend to take it further at the moment.
Andy

[Ixliam]

I'm jumping in and I just ordered the chip, along with some PCB feet (so I can mount my IPAC and OPTIPAC right). Now to raid e-bay for a gun (or two). The circuit looked pretty simple.

[AndyWarne]

Small technical point, in my post, above, I meant that the J-PAC chip has trouble with positive sync, not negative. The ArcadeVGA card always produces negative sync in all modes but normal VGA cards produce a varying polarity, negative for most resolutions but positive for some.
Andy

[Smog]

Hi Andy,
I understand your worries about the customer support but I guess none would blame on you for software problems. The driver is working quite well and functional I think, and as you know others are doing my same work from a while.
However I would like to assure all that I won't leave the project in the next future.

Greetings

[Lilwolf]

Andy, could you make a profit / ie make it worth your time, with only customers from this site?

You could sell them without support and know it doesn't have software support... And maybe only advertise it here.

Anyway, these boards will be enought for support for us.  And I would much rather order a small board then a chip, and goto radio shack, and solder, then find out I !@# somthing up.

[XtraSmiley]

Andy, could you make a profit / ie make it worth your time, with only customers from this site?

You could sell them without support and know it doesn't have software support... And maybe only advertise it here.

Anyway, these boards will be enought for support for us.

[rbarr110]

OK - I am going to make the circuit and try it out, however, I have a question regarding the VGA connection (I figured I would ask here first).

Does the circuit have to be in-line:

[Cananas]

I think is not necessary to be in-line. It can be parallel.

[tivogre]

I got my 3 JPAC small chips today.

Now I just have to track down the 680 Ohm resistor and .1 uF capacitor.

I ultimately intend to build this circuit and my 9v / 5v output circuit on one board.

I'll let you guys know when I'm done, and how it works out!

OK.... I finally got all of the parts and built the circuit with the JPAC small chip.

I am using the following hardware:

     Monitor - Wells Gardner D9200
     Video Card - Nvidia FX5500
     Guns - 2x Scorpion 3 (GunCon2 Mode)
     Driver - Acorn's WinGun v.82B

I haven't experimented with it much yet, but here's the current status:

800x600 mode @ 60Hz

Guns are recognized by the driver.  "A", "B", "C", "START" and D-Pad work correctly.  "Select" and "D" buttons do not register in the driver.

Can't calibrate either gun.

Nearly the EXACT same behavior I got when I built the (incorrect) 15kHz circuit.

The cursor moves as the gun moves, in the same direction, but not at the same speed.  Left and bottom edge boundaries "wrap around" so that one pass top to bottom or right to left moves the cursor about 1 3/4 screens.

I would classify the 800x600 as "unusable" at this time.



640x480 mode @ 70 Hz

Guns are recognized by the driver.  "A", "B", "C", "START" and D-Pad work correctly.  "Select" and "D" buttons do not register in the driver.

I can successfully calibrate both guns.

Tracking is good on the calibration screen, and on the windows desktop with a white background.

MAME lightgun games do not work correctly.  Almost all shots register as off-screen.  Shots near the center of the screen SOMETIMES work.  (This MAY be a MAME set-up issue... not sure yet).

***EDIT***

I have now gotten EggVenture to work correctly with dual light guns, but ONLY from the command line.  Not working yet in MAMEWAH.

I have gotten Area 51 to work SOMEWHAT, but ONLY from the command line.  Not working yet in MAMEWAH.  However, even from the command line, one out of every 2-3 shots registers as a reload vs. a shot.

***END EDIT***

I would classify 640x480 as "promising" at this time.



I'm going to pass this status on to Andy.  I'm also going to discuss with him ordering some of his new chips to see if my 800x600 issues may be solved with the new chip.

I'm open to any / all troubleshooting recommendations.

[SirPoonga]

does the refresh rate make a difference?

[tivogre]

does the refresh rate make a difference?

It might.  However, with the Wells Gardner D9200 monitor, 800x600 is a working, but not a "supported" resolution;  it will only work @ 60Hz as far as I can tell.

I edited my post above to say that I've now had partial success from the command line with EggVenture and to a lesser degree with Area 51.

[Acorn]

tivogre: it sounds like screenflashing isn't enabled/working for you (it does work with the FX series of cards). Either that, or there is glass over your monitor, or dirt on your gun. The gun registers as offscreen whenever it is pointed at black/dark colors (hence the screenflashing when you fire).

The resolutions issue is strange, but I think that monitor supports progressive and interlaced modes at different resolutions. Others have had similar issues with it.

"Select" and "D" not being recognised are interesting... I'll have to get with you and get a log to see what data the gun is returning when they are pressed. Most "D" buttons are just C+Offscreen, but I can't see why Select wouldn't work.

[tivogre]

tivogre: it sounds like screenflashing isn't enabled/working for you (it does work with the FX series of cards). Either that, or there is glass over your monitor, or dirt on your gun. The gun registers as offscreen whenever it is pointed at black/dark colors (hence the screenflashing when you fire).

The resolutions issue is strange, but I think that monitor supports progressive and interlaced modes at different resolutions. Others have had similar issues with it.

"Select" and "D" not being recognised are interesting... I'll have to get with you and get a log to see what data the gun is returning when they are pressed. Most "D" buttons are just C+Offscreen, but I can't see why Select wouldn't work.

There definitely seems to be some issue going on with the timing of the screen flash.

I can see the screen flash when I pull the trigger, but about 1/3 - 2/3 of shots in A51 register as off screen reloads.  If I crank up the gamma and brightness, the accuracy is great.... It just look like the screen is always "flashed".  Almost  like the read of position is not happening while the screen is bright.  Very strange.

There is glass over the monitor, but it and the gun are clean.  The glass is clear glass.  It works fine on brighter games or if I "artificially brighten".

[Lilwolf]

could this be the positive / negative sync signal being sent? 

You might consider trying to get it working on a standard VGA monitor and see if the some resolutions work and others dont.  Also that utility that allows you to set all your monitor / refresh settings down to a the mhz.... what is it called???...  That allows you to specify the sync to be positive or negative.  Might be able to install the demo and try it.

[Dexter]

does the refresh rate make a difference?

It might.

[Silver]

Not been up to date with this (or the newer jpac chip) but you can set the polarity of  the syncs at any resolution if you have a radeon - its in the driver settings.

Powerstrip will also let you do this if its supported by the card.

[rbarr110]

Anyone have any new updates on this using the updated/modified J-pac chip?

[fl0yd]

I haven't had a chance to build the circuit yet, but I hope to do so in the next week or so.

Any others?

[olsteve]

I built the circuit with the 'new' chip. I can't get it to work. I have tried both drivers (smog's, wingun). I took it back apart and verified that I have the wiring correct. I am using XP. I can not get the gun or screen to recognize each other at all. Any ideas?

[rbarr110]

I built the circuit with the 'new' chip. I can't get it to work. I have tried both drivers (smog's, wingun). I took it back apart and verified that I have the wiring correct. I am using XP. I can not get the gun or screen to recognize each other at all. Any ideas?

How is the circuit wired to the monitor?  Any pics to how it is connected?

Video card ----->circuit-------->monitor 
                             |
                              --------->Light gun

?

[olsteve]

I have it wired using a vga splitter cable. The monitor looks fine. When I go into the calibration screen there is no response at all to gun movement. The trigger does activate the screen flash. I can get the cursor to move with the trackball but nothing with the gun.

[Silver]

Sounds odd.... I take it the gun is detected ok by the drivers? (You have a guncon listed in device manager?).

Is your VGA splitter powered? I've never used one, and its possible that there is something it is doing that does not work with the gun. I've only tested (with the old chip) where I've directly pulled the syncs from the VGA cable, or used a direct pass through of the syncs on a monitor.

[olsteve]

 Yes the drivers know the gun is there. The VGA splitter is just a 'Y' cable that has two outputs from the pc (no power).
 I will attach a pic of the circuit that I added some clarification to. Let me know if it is correct.

[Silver]

I can't remember the exact pinout of a VGA but I'm sure you've checked the pinout.

I assume you've connected the -ve end of the Capacitor on the right to the other grounds on the left. Not sure if you need to ground the vsync input or not.

I came across some issues (with the old chip) regarding sync polarity and termination. The old chip needed -ve syncs, not sure about the new one. Try a couple of different resolutions, most VGA cards seem to change sync polarity at different resolutions, or use powerstrip to ensure what you are outputting (or if you have a radeon, you get set the syncs in display properties).

For termination issues, add an rca cable to the the gun rca connecter (they are always dual connectors, so plug in your rca connector from the circuit in one, and then connect the other to another cable. For a quick test you can then stick this cable in a tv - you should be alble to notice a stable black picture (I know its sounds dumb, but there is normally a difference between nothing connected on a tv and a black signal.) This will both ensure you have good syncs on the RCA, and at the same time will terminate the composite sync signal.

EDIT: I believe I've noticed an error in your wiring. I believe sync ground is actually pin 10, whereas you seem to have hooked up pin 5. I know some VGA pinouts just list pins 5-6-7-8-10 as ground but actually 5 was the old TTL groun, 6 is RED ground, 7 blue ground, 8 green ground. Try hooking up pin 10 instead. You have 13 and 14 correct for the syncs.

[olsteve]

 I believe the new chip is supposed to cure the sync polarity issue.
 Yes, the cap is tied to all the other grounds.
 What is the powerstrip thingy that you are refering to? 
 I did ohm out the grounds on the VGA connector and they all seemed to be tied together (5-6-7-8-10). I will double check when I get home (I am at work now).

[Silver]

Powerstrip is a windows program giving you hardware level control over most graphics cards - modifying and creating custom resolutions down to the size of the front porch... Its fiddly to use though. However, if the new chip gets around sync polarity, then you will not need it.

The grounds maybe tied together - I just assumed they would not be (why else have seperate pins for all the grounds).

[olsteve]

In fact the grounds are NOT all tied together. I just attached the first wire (BLK) that ohm'd out to the first ground pin I touched. I will correct tonight and report back later.

[olsteve]

I fixed the circuit and double checked all the connections. I still can't get it to work. I am frustrated.

[rbarr110]

The only thing I still dont understand is how a VGA "Y" splitter can work for the signal. 

 
                             |----------->Monitor
VGA ------>Splitter-|                                                 
                             |------>Circuit ------>Gun

If the circuit isn't in line with the monitor how is the signal at the monitor capable of working with the 15khz gun? 


Or does the circuit make the gun work at the VGA 30khz signal?  What am I missing here?

[Smog]

I don't understand what you have wrong with the scheme :

                                  31Khz
      31Khz                |----------->Monitor
VGA -------->Splitter-|    31Khz              15Khz                             
                                |------------>Circuit --------->Gun

[rbarr110]

I guess what my question is - what exactly is the circuit doing? 

I was under the impression it took the 31 Khz signal from the PC's VGA card and converted it to 15 khz so that the 15khz gun could work with the signal on the screen.

Or is the circuit taking a VGA signal and modifiying it to something the gun will recognize and has nothing to do with the actual 31 khz signal at the screen?