GunCon2 on PC-monitor

[ZeroPoint]

  I am happy to announce that the GunCon2 compatible guns now work excellent on PC-monitors (CRT) even at high resolutions.

My electronic circuit has developed into the next stage and I am just waiting for some new analyzing software to continuing working on it.

This circuit can now be used "out of the box" but I will continue to develop it to add some new really nice features. I can

[quarterback]

Wow!  If this is for real, I may have to jump on the GunCon2 bandwagon.

Are you going to be selling these "electronic circuits"?   Will they be $10 or $100?

[ZeroPoint]

Yes, it is for real !

Works best with GunCon2Mouse for some reason although WinGun has a better user interface.

There are still some developing to do on both the driver and the hardware before it can be released in a final version. (Well, actually it works great, but it can even be better!)

The real problem is actually to keep the circuit at a low cost. There is no problem making it work like a dream with expensive parts. You know what I mean ? The circuit should be affordable for everyone to build it themselves or for those who wish to buy it on a professional made pcb !

[vibez]

Now if it could be made to flash the screen like the act labs guns & work well with an arcadevga + jpac, I would be very interested!

[ZeroPoint]

Yes, one of the things in progress is to make the screen flash !

With this technology the screen MUST flash to get an accurate shot.

I have not yet tried it with my ArcadeVGA card. If it doesn

[vibez]

Sounds good. You do know that the jpac does some converting of Sync or voltage. I'm not sure what exactly. So you circuit might need fine tuning....

[ZeroPoint]

The J-Pac can convert the voltage on the RGB-signals to 5 volt. Some arcademonitors need 2-5 volt and have a input impedance from 1K to 10K. This has nothing to do with this circuit since we only use the sync-signals.

If you use the J-Pac you probably also use the ArcadeVGA card. This card outputs 15Khz Horizontal sync so you can use this directly without my circuit.

If you use composite sync (the J-Pac should be able to make this):
If the voltage level on the composite sync from the J-Pac signal is below 1 volt (I use 0,3V) you can connect the guns video connector directly to this.

If you do not:
Borrow the H and V signals from the video card and combine these in one way or the other. If you don

[vibez]

Yes I do use an arcadevga + jpac.

I was connecting the center wire of the guns RCA cable (signal) to the Videosync on my jamma board, then connecting the outer wire (ground) to the Vground on the Jamma. This worked at all but a few resolutions. For some reason @640x480, windows wouldnt even detect that the gun was plugged in.

Any idea why?

[Smog]

Hi man,
About the white flash, I suppose we could find an HW solution for that. it should take no more than a few resistors to drive flashing from parallel or serial (second one would be preferred since parallel port is used often for other important connection into a MAME-PC) port on a pass-through VGA signal.

[crashwg]

I may be wrong but doesn't mame already flash the screen?

I know it at least does it for Zero Point and Zero Point 2

FCEultra also does this with at least Duck Hunt...

[JODY]

I may be wrong but doesn't mame already flash the screen?

I know it at least does it for Zero Point and Zero Point 2

FCEultra also does this with at least Duck Hunt...

Light gun games should do this as part of the game code.  Games that used mechanical guns wouldn't.

[MajorLag]

I may be wrong but doesn't mame already flash the screen?

I know it at least does it for Zero Point and Zero Point 2

FCEultra also does this with at least Duck Hunt...

They do flash the screen, but it seems as though the mouse coords aren't read during the flash so it doesn't add any accuracy. At least it doesn't for me with WinGun.

[ZeroPoint]

About the J-Pac: I do not have a J-Pac myself so I need more information about your setup (connections, monitor etc.) before I can help you. Anyway I recommend you to use a separate circuit connected between your ArcadeVGA card and your J-Pac for connecting the gun. There are so many ways to connect things together. This is why I make my circuit so it should be connected directly to the graphics card via rgb, s-vhs or composite so that further connections can vary except from scanconverters etc. I will try to connect to the ArcadeVGA as soon as I can.

About the screen flash: Yes, it is easy to make the screen flash via rgb-signals on arcademonitors, scart-tvs and pc-monitors. I do not think the TIMING of the flash should be controlled by software but by hardware timed to the sync signals. TRIGGERING the flash must be controlled by software via (as you say) the parallel or serial port. Many people use s-vhs or composite for connection to their TV. I would really like to use a sync-separator to make things a little easier with screen-flashing on these although this increases the component-costs. I could of course make two versions, one for vga-signal and one for video signal. What do you think

[Smog]

@zeropoint

You can try to do anything you want but, there is one thing I learned writing the driver, you will never be able to cover all the ppl's configurations

When I start writing it I thought about the RGB connection and this is the way I meant it to work. I am happy that ppl have tested many different combibations. Some connections had less results than other ending up in driver hackin and very dirty things to make it work (in reality some ppl discovered it is just a connection issue).

So, what I want to say, you could even add a LM1881 to separate syncs from composite out and so on .. but tomorrow there will be someone who will say "How do I connect it to my satellite antenna?"
The rigth way is starting with the simplest connection (hopefully the one you can test and work on) and after that you "could" try to satisfy the more different request you can.

About the HW :
I don't think you should hook the sync. It would need a microcontroller for that but we can do without. Just put white level on the VGA for a couple o millisecs.

If you handle to show me something in HW to handle the flash I can try to modify the driver to handle it. I can set the TX HI on the serial port when you pull the trigger and read coordinates some millisecs after.

[ZeroPoint]

I know what you mean ! Many people ask things before they think things through and I probably do that myself some times !? That

[Smog]

about the micro .. you're right we could just AND togheter the TX (well .. it is not TTL so it should be parted into 5v) with the Vsync and after that you could sustain the white out for 1/50 sec with an RC (or some frames more. The more you retain less syncronization problem  I'll have in delaying the read of the coordinates)  ....
I think it can work this way ... even I don't have a lot of time in next days/weeks ... but the world was not created in one day, right ?

The ideal would be merging all in one circuit :

- Sync xoring
- TTL to composite level adaption
- White frame flashing

And having a passthrough with two nice VGA connectors ...

[Smog]

One last thing ... maybe it is to advanced for this time but it's a good idea to work on : flashing at half of the pixel clock (just one pixel each two is overwritten by white) should result in TRASPARENT-WHITE flashing that gives much better results than the ALL-WHITE flash of act-labs.

[Lilwolf]

I always wondered why console games didn't flash as much, but yet where just as accurate.  Or flashing grey.

It would be very interesting if you could just flash a grid and so you can still see the background a little.  Make it a bit less... extreme.

[Silver]

Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick here - my eye just caught by idea of using guncon2s with a pc monitor.

I thought the whole point of guncon2 guns was that they tracked all the time without flashing the screen unlike the actlabs guns. Hence they would be great for games like T2 which are based on positionaljoysticks.

So could someone clarify why you are building a circuit to flash the screen with a guncon2? Or am I just sounding completely stupid (quite possible, its late for me!)

[vibez]

They work in the same way as the actlabs guns. They can only read light areas of the screen, hence the need for a hardware flash in games like T2 which dont flash the screen.

Only camera based guns will work with light & dark pixels

[Timstuff]

So, how exactly did the Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo versions of Terminator 2 work? Did Menacer and Super Scope guns use cameras, or did the game play differently from the arcade version to work with the optical guns?

[brandon]

So, how exactly did the Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo versions of Terminator 2 work? Did Menacer and Super Scope guns use cameras, or did the game play differently from the arcade version to work with the optical guns?

the menacer and super scope were both lightguns so the gameplay was tweaked to work with lightguns AFAIK..   I know that was the case with Operation Wolf on NES.  The NES gun didnt track in real time when the trigger was held so it was more like playing with a pistol instead of an Uzi.

[Silver]

Hang on I'm confused now. I Know the guncon2 tracked across the screen without flashing on a PS2, and people have posted in the guncon2 driver thread that they have had the samething working (using the guncon2 as the mouse pointer in windows (on a TV) - although with some tracking/accuracy issues).

Does this mean that although this uses the same driver it only tracks when the trigger is pulled? Seems to defeat the purpose of building a driver/circuit to adapt the guncon2 to a PC monitor....?

[vibez]

It does track across my desktop without a flash. But as soon as you aim over a black part, it stops tracking. ( that is why we need a HW flash - for games that were not designed for light guns)

It just how these types of guns work. It will be the same on the PS2. It has to be.

These gun are not designed to be trackable.

[Joystick Jerk]

the menacer and super scope were both lightguns so the gameplay was tweaked to work with lightguns AFAIK..   I know that was the case with Operation Wolf on NES.  The NES gun didnt track in real time when the trigger was held so it was more like playing with a pistol instead of an Uzi.

Remember though that the Menacer and Super-Scope DID have IR trackers that you placed on top of the TV. They were tracked that way so you could have games with autofire that tracked across the screen.

This was obviously an improvement over the NES which didn't track the lightgun and just relied on screen flashes.

[SirPoonga]

dumb question, but I haven't read the other entire guncon thread.  Where can we get this info? driver? etc....

Also can you use two?

[vibez]

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/smogdragon/

YES

[SirPoonga]

so it is the same circuit as the arcade/tv version?  no changes?  I just want to make this clear.

Also, the important image (the vga one) is not there!

plus I am missing the docs where you can hook up two to vga.  I have to read this entire thread yet too.

[csete]

I hate to ask, but will any of this work with my Linux cabinet?  I'm running AdvanceMame with a G400 connected to a standard arcade monitor.  I understand the original GunCon2 drivers were Linux based, but it seems that the new drivers being referred to in these threads are all for WinXP.  Is that correct?  What is the status of the Linux drivers?

Thanks

[vibez]

so it is the same circuit as the arcade/tv version?  no changes?  I just want to make this clear.

Also, the important image (the vga one) is not there!

plus I am missing the docs where you can hook up two to vga.  I have to read this entire thread yet too.

The Pc monitor circuit hasnt been designed yet. The only know working combo's are detailed here http://intruderalert.myarcade.org/GUNCON2.htm

@csete - XP only for now

[SirPoonga]

ok, I get it, ZeroPoint is just indicating it is possible, just not available for public yet.

I'm just excited.  One reason I didn't get the act labs was that it had to be plugged into vga too.  That means I'd need a VGA port access on the outside.  With this I could just mount RCA ports next to the vga and have easily removable guns.

[Smog]

I hate to ask, but will any of this work with my Linux cabinet?

No it will not.

As far as I know the linux driver you are talking about are not guncon2 driver but the guncon2-API in the linux development kit for PS2.
I think no real guncon2 driver exists for linux yet (but not sure of that, cause I really don't mind of linux for emulation).
I already gave relevant part of my driver sources to Andrea Mazzoleni that develops a very important build of mame for linux (Advancemame). He told me he was working on that. You only have to hope he will.

[brained]

hmm... so do you think the guncon2 will work for PC monitors, i'm gonna use a pc monitor my cab and having a light gun will be a great feature 

[ZeroPoint]

Note...

Yes: Guncon2 compatible guns now work on PC-monitors !

No: The circuit has not been released !

Why: Work in progress ! Adding new features etc. and making sure that there will be no bullet holes in the screen when shooting at it !

Problem: Can only work on this project in the weekends !

Hopefully you will be blasting those zombies of your PC-monitor soon...

[SirPoonga]

ZeroPoint, is it possible to have two guns on a pc monitor?  Just curious.

[Smog]

SirPoonga,
let me explain you one thing that could be of help.

The circuit zeropoint is working on is used to supply an hardware adaption of the VGA sync level for the guncon2 to make it work on standard pc-monitor.

Since the software driver is the same, all the non-connection related issues are the same like for the other connections type.

So basically: yes! It is possible to connect 2 guns.

[brained]

OMG It will be gun slinging mayhem 

[SirPoonga]

SirPoonga,
let me explain you one thing that could be of help.

The circuit zeropoint is working on is used to supply an hardware adaption of the VGA sync level for the guncon2 to make it work on standard pc-monitor.

Since the software driver is the same, all the non-connection related issues are the same like for the other connections type.

So basically: yes! It is possible to connect 2 guns.

I figured as much, but I had to make sure.  I don't want to buy something without finding out if it does what i wnat it to do first

[AndyWarne]

About the GunCon2 with J-PAC:
The J-PAC produces a 5 volt composite sync signal which is the correct level for arcade monitors. But this might be too high for the gun, which is expecting a sync derived from composite video. I have a gun on order to test with.
I think a better way would be to take the sync from before the J-PAC, using the X-OR circuit to produce composite from H and V.
I have already drawn up a simple PCB which has male/female D connectors and an X-OR circuit, and a RCA connector for the gun. If there is any demand I'll get this made, it could be used with orwithout the J-PAC.
Andy W

[SirPoonga]

Andy, how about another possiblity.  Have an RCA cable directly on an arcadevga for those of us who don't use jpac?  Have the circuitry already part of the video card?  Then one would just need t plug in the gun... 

[Alcohol]

Andy, how about another possiblity.  Have an RCA cable directly on an arcadevga for those of us who don't use jpac?  Have the circuitry already part of the video card?  Then one would just need t plug in the gun... 

downside of that would meen shelling out on a new arcadevga :/

Could they be an adapator made with the circuit in it for the voltage that connects to the vga on the card and lets the video signals pass through as normal but maybe have a cable with the phono connector on it for the sync for the gun?..

forgive me if iam talking crap as iam not very techy

Alc..

[SirPoonga]

Andy, how about another possiblity.  Have an RCA cable directly on an arcadevga for those of us who don't use jpac?  Have the circuitry already part of the video card?  Then one would just need t plug in the gun... 

downside of that would meen shelling out on a new arcadevga :/

Could they be an adapator made with the circuit in it for the voltage that connects to the vga on the card and lets the video signals pass through as normal but maybe have a cable with the phono connector on it for the sync for the gun?..

forgive me if iam talking crap as iam not very techy

Alc..

Well yeah, that's what you'd have to do now.  It owuld be cool if it was built into the avga in future versions.  But if you currently have one you;d have to make the usual vga hack.

[Alcohol]

About the GunCon2 with J-PAC:
The J-PAC produces a 5 volt composite sync signal which is the correct level for arcade monitors. But this might be too high for the gun, which is expecting a sync derived from composite video. I have a gun on order to test with.
I think a better way would be to take the sync from before the J-PAC, using the X-OR circuit to produce composite from H and V.
I have already drawn up a simple PCB which has male/female D connectors and an X-OR circuit, and a RCA connector for the gun. If there is any demand I'll get this made, it could be used with orwithout the J-PAC.
Andy W

Apologies i did not read your post properly... as it seems youve actually drawn up the plans for the said adapter i was on about.. well if you was to make them i would definately buy one..

and sir poonga is correct.. it would be a good idea to have this option built onto the arcade vga



Alc..

[AndyWarne]

I posted on the other thread about hooking up a gun using a regular VGA card and monitor, sending the sync through the sync chip on a J-PAC, which works.

I am wondering about the white flash. Would it not be best to do this entirely in software? When the trigger is pulled (ie button pressed), write a totally white screen?

Andy

[saint]

Would someone please write up a summary of the current state with the GunCon, the various possibilities and future plans in the works, and submit it as a news item so I can put it on the front page?

Thanks!

--- saint

[vibez]

I posted on the other thread about hooking up a gun using a regular VGA card and monitor, sending the sync through the sync chip on a J-PAC, which works.

I am wondering about the white flash. Would it not be best to do this entirely in software? When the trigger is pulled (ie button pressed), write a totally white screen?

Andy

The software solution has been looked  at & is proving very difficult as you basically need to steel focus from what ever game is running.

[AndyWarne]

It should be easy to directly write to the VGA registers to flash the screen, but this is frowned upon on XP of course, although possible. I'll look into this.

[vibez]

Interesting! Lets us know how you get on. The driver only works on XP.

[ZeroPoint]

  The hardware for connecting the gun to a PC-monitor, Scart-TV or ArcadeMonitor via RGB is now finished. There is now a switch to select between PC-monitor or Scart-TV/ArcadeMonitor so the same circuit can be used for both.

I have another version that hardware-flashes the screen. The downside of this version is that I have to use some more expensive parts to make a proper hardware flash and this circuit limits the "build your own" possibilities and it also has to be triggered with some hardware-signal.

As Andy says: The software flash should be no problem.

I have used some excisting software to simulate software-flashing and it seems to work well. I have not tested it with the driver of course since this must be written to trigger this flash (I will ask SMOG about this). In XP you should probably write directly to the DAC to modify the lookup table.

If anyone has some information on this subject, please post it !

After studying the cost for making ONE unit, getting the right parts, having the right equipment to build it etc. I have realized that it is must be better for you to buy this unit unless you are making these for all your friends and relatives.

To make things a little more clear I will ask some questions for those interested:

Are you interested in building your own or will you buy one to plug and play on a professional pcb ?

What are you willing to pay for a solution that uses software-flash and what are you willing to pay for a solution that uses hardware-flash ?

If you are using a Scart-TV: Would you like a version that has a scart-connector ?

I have to ask this to understand the needs and how high-tech (read: price!) the circuit should be.

[vibez]

I would like an already made circuit. I guess a softWare flash would be peferable if it keeps the cost down.

what are the pros & cons of software vs hardware flash?

Can we be sure it works with the jpac?

Will connecting 2 guns be easy enough?

I would think $5-$10 for the non-flash circuit would be acceptable

[lustreking]

How complicated is the circuit?  Would it be easy to build on the pad-per-hole perfboard?  If so, I'd probably be interested in just the parts, or maybe a kit with a pcb.

-S

[ZeroPoint]

Software flash reduces the hardware cost and have simpler connections. It is also independent on connection type: RGB, S-Vhs etc.

Hardware flash must be triggered by the driver via f.ex. the serial port. It is also possible to modify the gun to trigger the hardware flash and will then be independent on the driver. This is a little more complicated. Hardware flash also needs separate circuitry for RGB and S-VHS connections.

The hardware flash is better in the way that it works no matter what software you are running.

The circuit contains three 14 pins ICs, a few resistors, capasitors, transistors, 2 passthrough connectors and 2 rca connctors. Well, actually a lot to solder on a breadboard. I would recommend buying this already made. It

[vibez]

Hmm. now i'm not sure. I always thought the software flash would be promlematic. I guess its up to you to maybe throw some ball park figures about. Maybe if someone programmed a software flash we could try it out to see if it is acceptable or not

[AmericanDemon]

Heres the way I look at it.  You can buy a Guncon 2 off of ebay for between 5-20 bucks.  An Act Labs gun can run around 60- 150.  If you do the math, to make it cost effective and to eliminate the need to scour the web for an act labs gun, this circuit could run from 40 - 130 bucks. 

I know I personally would personally prefer to buy a premade device.  I would be willing to spend $40.00 - $60.00 as long as it supported dual Guncon 2 support.

[ZeroPoint]

Now we are talking...

[vibez]

The guncon2 has mappable buttons. That to me in the main plus point.

[AmericanDemon]

If you could get it cheaper then great you will sell even more.  But I know I would by a single device for 40 - 60 bucks.  Especially if you were to include at least one guncon.

[Dariusz]

I personaly think that there should be two kit options available:

1. A kit that can be purchased - for users that do not have the tools to build the kit - Cost to the end user : without knowing the exact IC parts, I would place a ball park figure of $20-25

2. A kits that uses can build by their own - for users who have the tools to build the kit. - Cost to the end user - just the components they purchase from their local electronics shop.

I personally likle option 2, as I like to be involved in building items - personal satisfaction.

Keep up the good work

Dariusz

[SirPoonga]

oh, if someone wants a tester to test the PC side of things let me know.  I will buy a guncon2 just to test.  This doesn;t flash the screen, right?  I would absolutely love that!

[MrTroy]

I'm late and confused about something...

Why do people keep saying the screen HAS to flash. This can't positively be true. If you play virtual cop for Sega Saturn. Put the gameapad in and start a new game. During the game take the game pad out and put the light gun in. The cursor that was the gamepad is now a tracking device for the gun. The screen doesn't bug out or anything. It follows where you go. Am I wrong? I can try this again tonight to be sure.

[Silver]

That is how the guncon operated on the PS, yes - it just tracks without flashing.

I am unclear as to why, now it is being ported to the PC, that it is necessary to add a flash - I thought this was the whole advantage of guncons, making them perfect for simulatiing arcade light gun games based on positional joysticks (think T2 with mahcine guns - you can't play that without tracking).

I suspect that brightness is an issue from the screen. Also, games not designed for guncon type tracking will have lots of dark areas, presumably in which the guns are unable to track at all?

For me, adding the flash to the guncons defeats the purpose as they will become a less accurate (I suspect) version of the act labs.

[ZeroPoint]

What Playstation2 game "tracks" while showing a pointer ?

I would like to test it !

[XtraSmiley]

What Playstation2 game "tracks" while showing a pointer ?

I would like to test it !

The Playstation one games, Point Blank 1-3 all had a calibration screen which showed the curser and tracked as you were moving the gun around.  These screens do NOT have ANY black or dark area's at all.  I think that the gun can track, but when it hits the dark area's of the games it gets lost.  T2 is a really dark game....

[ZeroPoint]

As I just posted in the "GunCon2 Screen Flashing !!!" topic, "Time Crisis 2" flashes the screen and it tracks a crosshair ONLY in the calibration screen. I think every light gun games on the PS2 works like this. (I am asking this question in that topic.)

We have to test PS2 games only (GunCon2) because that it what the PC-driver is all about.

As you probably know: T2 is not a real light gun game. The gun was mounted on a analog joystick. 

[jlml]

Too bad there wasn't a way, on pulling the trigger, to just momentarily boost the lower brightness color index values, instead of flashing the whole screen glaring bright white...

[IntruderAlert]

Software flash reduces the hardware cost and have simpler connections. It is also independent on connection type: RGB, S-Vhs etc.

Hardware flash must be triggered by the driver via f.ex. the serial port. It is also possible to modify the gun to trigger the hardware flash and will then be independent on the driver. This is a little more complicated. Hardware flash also needs separate circuitry for RGB and S-VHS connections.

The hardware flash is better in the way that it works no matter what software you are running.

The circuit contains three 14 pins ICs, a few resistors, capasitors, transistors, 2 passthrough connectors and 2 rca connctors. Well, actually a lot to solder on a breadboard. I would recommend buying this already made. It

[ZeroPoint]

The only circuit that is finished is the one for using the gun on a pc-monitor. This is a very easy circuit using standard components. I am currently working on adding screen flash. This seems to work fine but I will not release this until it is 100%. Currently working on making a sync detection program to make it work on different resolutions without any manual switching etc. To be able to support high horizontal frequencies is the most difficult part when using low-cost components.

The funny thing about this circuit is that if I add just a few more parts I will end up with a complete light gun circuitry. 

[SirPoonga]

The funny thing about this circuit is that if I add just a few more parts I will end up with a complete light gun circuitry. 

Soooooooo, could you hack/add to the gun instead?

[aljupy]

I

[shawnzilla]

How's the progress going on this?

[fl0yd]

Bueller, Bueller?

[SQrL]

bump................ 

[shawnzilla]

Looks like ZeroPoint hasn't been online for a couple of weeks...

[Billkwando]

Holy crap!

I didn't even know this thread was here!! LOL

[SirPoonga]

You guys can stop bumping this.  I stickied the other thread and put a link to this in the first post of the other thread.

[jelwell]

You guys can stop bumping this.

[ZeroPoint]

I

[Lilwolf]

btw, for the software flash solution.

Couldn't we just change the system contrast settings once, then change it back?  Seems like it would work pretty well if the emulation software used it (I know that many dvd software packages ignore the system contrast / brightness).

But it would be cool if it just bumped up the bottom range... then brought it back.  And let it be configurable so that you could bump it up to everything is pure white if needed... but most people could just up it some percent until their gun reads it at a specific distance.

[Acorn]

I implemented this in WinGun about three weeks ago (it was just released yesterday afternoon), try it out ( http://guncon.acornscity.com ). However, some things to note - the "system brightness" is only avalible, and read by certain cards. The rest seem to use their own.

I use the same method that mame uses, from our tests. If mame -fsb 2 works for you, then WinGun's flashing will work. Also note that the max brightness in this method is capped! You cannot get pure white. Only "brighter".

[jelwell]

Is it fair to call this Vapourware? Or are people still optimistic? Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways. But I do have a few guncons sitting around that I'd try out if this circuit ever materialized.
Joseph Elwell.

[Silver]

Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways.

Holding out? Is one being developed? I figured it would take either complete reverse engineering of the HOTD3 style infra red system (which I think you are referring) - but them you may as well develop your own from scratch (which Andy from Ultimarc started doing, but then scrapped when he had issues and the guncon hack came along.....


On the guncon-with-VGA front, I've (finally!) got a circuit built to convert the VGA H/V syncs to composite sync that the guncon can use (thanks to Mr. Warne and his J-pac sync converting chips...). I've also got a 9V power supply ready for the Scorpion guns I've borrowed to test (they apparantly don't work from USB power alone, probably due to there 'laser sighting' or different circuitry - just need to check which pins in the PS connector I need to power).

I'm just hacking up a VGA cable for testing now (man these modern moulded-plastic ends are ridiculous. Turns out to be 10x quicker to snip the end of f, test all the cables and then resolder to a new 15-way.) Have a quick question though - I'm going to want to take of the H and V syncs off the VGA, but still feed my VGA monitor with them for the picture (obviously). Can I just pull them without causing problems with the signal? I know R,G,B are all terminated to 75 Ohms in the monitor - not 100% sure about the syncs. Even if they are, will I upset the termination by running the syncs into another IC?
     Or am I going to have to come up with some kind of distribution device (You can't just split all the VGA signals - you mess up the termination). There is probably an obvious way round this...

[Smog]

Is it fair to call this Vapourware? Or are people still optimistic? Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways. But I do have a few guncons sitting around that I'd try out if this circuit ever materialized.
Joseph Elwell.

I spent a lot of time to make a lightgun work on my mame-cab and I finally found a solution that I consider "epocal". Maybe Guncon2Mouse driver suite is far from perfection but it has proved it works. So the answer is : <No! Not it is not fair indeed.>

[AceTKK]

I believe he was referring to making the Guncon work on a PC monitor.  Nobody in their right mind would call your or Acorn's work vaporware.

[Smog]

Ooops ... maybe you are right I always use that word for software, that's why I got confused. Sorry

[jelwell]

Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways.

Holding out? Is one being developed? I figured it would take either complete reverse engineering of the HOTD3 style infra red system (which I think you are referring) - but them you may as well develop your own from scratch (which Andy from Ultimarc started doing, but then scrapped when he had issues and the guncon hack came along.....

I wasn't aware that Andy gave up on that. Too bad since it's superior technology to even the GunCon2 guns.

Is it fair to call this Vapourware? Or are people still optimistic? Personally, I'm holding out for the Namco style tracking guns anyways. But I do have a few guncons sitting around that I'd try out if this circuit ever materialized.
Joseph Elwell.

I spent a lot of time to make a lightgun work on my mame-cab and I finally found a solution that I consider "epocal". Maybe Guncon2Mouse driver suite is far from perfection but it has proved it works. So the answer is : <No! Not it is not fair indeed.>

Indeed I was referring to the "GunCon2 on PC-Monitor", which is what the title of this thread is. - which Zeropoint seems to have falsely stated, "I am happy to announce that the GunCon2 compatible guns now work excellent on PC-monitors (CRT) even at high resolutions."

Thank you for you work Smog.
Joseph Elwell.

[ZeroPoint]

- which Zeropoint seems to have falsely stated, "I am happy to announce that the GunCon2 compatible guns now work excellent on PC-monitors (CRT) even at high resolutions."

This circuit still works great...the statement is NOT false ! The problem is that I still haven't got time to finish it...(Make schematics, pcb-layoyt etc.) There is also a little voltage-correction I have to do on the output since there is no impedance in the guns.

The circuit mainly works by dividing the horizontal sync signal and at the same time getting the right sync width. If you read in Smog

[jelwell]

Call me pessimistic, but I've seen light guns come and go. Yes I know that one was a joke, but it's actually backed up with more evidence than some projects that promise legitimate results, and then disappear - sometimes before they begin. Once in a while, in the end, something legitimate shows up.

Zeropoint, call me scientific since I've never been strong in faith. I just don't think anything could possibly work "excellent"ly unless it was good enough to actually release.

In the end, of course, I'm just a jealous man who wants what you claim to have.
Joseph Elwell.

[Silver]

The circuit mainly works by dividing the horizontal sync signal and at the same time getting the right sync width. If you read in Smog

[Silver]

I wasn't aware that Andy gave up on that. Too bad since it's superior technology to even the GunCon2 guns.

Yes I thought it was a real shame. I think it had problems with the display interferring with the infrared detectors, and then the guncon announcement was made.
   I'd still like to see a solution that makes the display irrelevant (therefore tracks and no issues with changing resolution) and also accurate (sorry eReal). If I can get 2 guncons working on a VGA monitor with tracking I'll be more than happy.

Actually one of the best alternitives I've come across is a system called TrackIR from Naturalpoint. Its a high-speced USB camera with built-in infrared emitters, and it tracks a reflective dot you can stick on anything. Works very well apparantly, but the real clever bit is that they have developed a "vector expansion" unit which is basically an odd 3D 'shape' add-on that they can track with 6 degrees of freedom - so basically you could walk out your house with it, come back in, and not need to recalibrate. Unfortunately - expensive, no proper support for this kind of use, only 1 device supported at a time, and - the real killer - a very limited field of view for tracking.

[ZeroPoint]

Silver: Apologies if you've posted this before, but did you ever post the circuit that you used to get the setup working? Or is that what you are working on?

No, I haven

[Silver]

Hi,

good luck finishing it off - I've got a scorpion3 I'll be testing soon.

Quite interesting in you earlier comment about sync width - sounds like you've done some testing with what does and does not work. Are you able to post/pm info about what's needed?

[Acorn]

Greetings!

Zero - both Smog and I have acheived a "pure" flash. In other words, brightening the screen to a level which the gun can track EVERYWHERE on. At first I was using pure grey (think dreamcast) but now, I brighten everything that is less than the grey up to the grey, and just smooth the rest out. Makes it look really nice but has the same effect allowing for perfect accuracy.

[ZeroPoint]

Thanks, Acorn !

I am really looking forward to test it as soon as I can. 

[Silver]

Well its taken me far longer than expected, mainly though excessive stupidity, but heres a quick video of me taking on some cardboard cut-out ninjas in Point Blank in mame (which is pretty much the distance I was shooting from!  )

...all at the merry resolution of 1024x768i, courtesy of the microchip that's used in a Jpac.

http://www.silverfoxy.plus.com/Guncon.html

[fl0yd]

That looks great.

[lesserChance]

So I have a question that was probably already answered in one of the other threads about this:  Is the GunCon2 more accurate than the Act Labs ones?  I have a set of the old act labs guns, and they work alright, but the aim gets screwed up when near the edges of the screen, or if there are two players...

[SirPoonga]

and then disappear

HEY!
A review for GL will be up shortly.  The unfortunate events of getting a new job then my arcade computer dieing pretty much prevented that from happening right away

Anyway.  So what's the summary on this right now?  Are we close to having this available for the public?

[SQrL]

I've done some searching but can't seem to find instructions on how to get this working (I know a JPAC is required).  Anyone wanna help me out and write some destructions for this dummy?   

[Smog]

Well done man !!!!What about accuracy ? Did you notice anything

[ZeroPoint]

...all at the merry resolution of 1024x768i, courtesy of the microchip that's used in a Jpac.

Hi, Silver !

Congratulations on your success !

Do you really have to use interlaced mode to make it work ?

Note! I don

[Lilwolf]

btw, does it seem like it will always need a jpac?

[tivogre]

btw, does it seem like it will always need a jpac?  (I have a ipac4... not going to a jpac) 

I would love the get a set of these, but don't know if its possible.

btw, anyone try outputting to both VGA and TV-OUT at the same time and then use the composite out for sync?  or is that just a pipedream?

I'm trying this now with the guncons I just received;  so far, no dice.

I've verified the "cloned" desktop on a 13" TV via s-video to composite converter.

The gun IS recognized by the driver when pointed at the Wells Gardner D9200.

However, I can't calibrate it correctly.

The cursor "responds" to movement of the gun, but it's jumpy (all over the place).\

If I point the gun at the 13" TV when calibrating, it calibrates correctly.

I can only (so far) hypothesize that there is some difference / delay between the s-video output syncs and the VGA syncs feeding the D9200.

Any help / advice appreciated.

[ZeroPoint]

btw, anyone try outputting to both VGA and TV-OUT at the same time and then use the composite out for sync?  or is that just a pipedream?

Don

[Lilwolf]

COOL!  So you are working a solution that will work without a jpac!

I wasn't sure if the only work was being done requiring a jpac.

[Silver]

Hi,

Sorry for general lack of info - not been around much since. When I posted that I thought I had to use interlace modes - although since I've had success in just plain old progressive. I've had a catalogue of minor errors on this such as one of my 2 guns not working at all - but me assuming it just wasn't working with my setup, it also appears that being 100Hz gun, the scorpion may well have 2 "modes" to cater for progressive output - what and how to switch the modes I have no idea - presumably 1st thing its pointed at, but fiddly when you are testing with powerstrip. I was also not terminating the sync signal correctly (it appears the composite connector on the gun does not terminate the signal - this is perhaps obvious as its a pass through, but I'm still surprised).

I havn't actually got it hooked up to a TV yet so can't compare accuracy. It gets slightly less accurate as you increase resolution (ie smallest hop in 1024x768i was around "5" units directly reported by the gun, moves down to 2/3 at 800x600. Still playable with though.

Anyway, i don't actually own a jpac - I was just provided with the chip off it that converts vga syncs to composite for testing. As the Jpac is quite pricey for this, and it looks like zeropoints got a working circuit from the ground up it may well be best/cheaper to see what he comes up with. I'll try and post a wiring diagram tomorrow for the chip.

I don't think I'm going to get much time to play with this again till next week - I'd like to test more to sort out what progressive resolutions are ok and if the gun really is changing modes at all....

[Silver]

Quick bit of info:

You don't need a JPAC - you can order the chip seperately from ultimarc directly. Its the "JPAC small chip" from the upgrade page on the ultimarc site:

www.ultimarc.com/upgrade.html

I think it costs $8. The circuit for wiring is shown below. 680R is a 680 Ohm resistor, C1 is a 10 micro farad capacitor (rated at 16V). All the grounds from the syncs can be wired together.

[Silver]

Note while I've had mine working, I'm still testing and have not always had it working 1st time. For the record, I also added some extras to the above circuit to smooth out the output a bit when I could not get it working. However, it was not working for other reasons it turns out.

Andy from Ultimarc has had his Namco2 guns working with the above circuit.

Here's my board (ignore everything that isn't around the chip - thats a couple of other circuits to smooth the output and also to give me a regulated 5V supply from a higher input.)

[tivogre]

Anyone know if this device:





http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/PC-TV_GTM-2000.html

...would work to get the VGA sync signal for the gun.

Looks like it has a VGA pass through and simultaneous composite output.

Shouldn't this work?

It costs about $80.00... one of these and two guncons is still cheaper than 2 ACTLABs.

[dabone]

That shouldn't work because it's a frame buffer that re-renders the signal to meet the output independent of the input (i.e. the sync won't be the same)


Later,
dabone

[jelwell]

Silver, congratulations and thank you for the circuit.

Andy from Ultimarc has had his Namco2 guns working with the above circuit.

Hmm, should I hack one up now? Or does anyone know if Andy plans on selling a kit? I am both handy and lazy, but mostly lazy.
Joseph Elwell.

[tivogre]

<EDIT TO REDUCE CONFUSION...

THE CIRCUIT PICTURED IN THIS POST IS THE WRONG CIRCUIT FOR A VGA MONITOR / WG D9200.  I INCORRECTLY BUILT THE 15kHz (ARCADE) MONITOR CIRCUIT.  IM LEAVING THE POST HERE FOR CONTINUITY, BUT THE CIRCUIT YOU NEED FOR VGA / WG D9200 IS NOT THE ONE IN THIS POST.

/EDIT To REDUCE CONFUSION>


OK....

I broke down and ordered the parts and built "the circuit".



Now,  before I proceed, I have a question about hooking up this circuit between the VGA card and the monitor...

Here's my understanding of what I need to do now:

1.  Cut a VGA cord into 2 parts

2.  Find the wires corresponding to SGND (10), HSYNC (13) and VSYNC (14)

3.  Solder a "pigtail" lead from each of the 3 identified wires to the appropriate input wire on the circuit board

4.  Reconnect all of the wires in the VGA cable

5.  Connect "Hacked" VGA cable between VGA card and monitor as per normal VGA cord

6.  Use the Composite Sync output from the circuit to connect the GUNCONs

Did I get any of this wrong or leave anything out?

I'm just leery of messing up my monitor or VGA card.

In case it matters, the monitor is a 27" Wells Gardner D9200.  The VGA card is an NVidea FX series.

I'd like to try this out tomorrow... but I'm looking for some assurance from the kind experts here first.

Thanks in advance!

[Smog]

tivogre, But isn't the circuit in the picture the one I used to connect the gun to a 15Khz VGA ? It is not what they are talking about here.

However I had better results sending the composite sync to the monitor from the same wire I use for to the gun instead of sending separate syncs to the monitor and composite to the gun ... maybe this helps you to.

[tivogre]

tivogre, But isn't the circuit in the picture the one I used to connect the gun to a 15Khz VGA ? It is not what they are talking about here.

However I had better results sending the composite sync to the monitor from the same wire I use for to the gun instead of sending separate syncs to the monitor and composite to the gun ... maybe this helps you to.

OK Now I'm REALLY confused!

The circuit above is the one linked to from intruderalert's page with all the examples of "known working" connection methods.

http://intruderalert.myarcade.org/GUNCON2.htm#VGA

At the bottom of the section on VGA Monitors, he shows this picture;  hacking the VGA cable into "the circuit" is where I think I am now.



Is this, or is this not what I need for my application?

If it is, do I have the correct method to USE the circuit listed out above?

[Acorn]

In this case, I think he was reffering to the thread - this thread has been about a circuit to allow 31Khz monitors to work with the guncon2. The methods used in intruderalerts guide is to connect from a VGA out to a 15Khz monitor, which I believe is what yours is.

[Cananas]

Silver,

I bought a jpac small chip to Andy and I built the circuit you post but it doesn't work for me.

Andy from Ultimarc has had his Namco2 guns working with the above circuit.

Sorry, but I don't know what this circuit do. Please Andy, could you explain us how it works?

Thanks.

PD. My guncon2 gun works perfectly with my TV both with the vga-scart with the sync circuit and TV out.

[Silver]

The chip basically divides the horizontal clock frequency in half, and generates a composite sync signal from this. You feed it the seperate horizontal sync and vertical sync from your VGA graphics card (usually by cutting up a VGA able or using a VGA->BNC cable) and use the output sync on pin1 to feed to the composite video connector attached to the gun.

[tivogre]

Andy has updated the wiring diagram for this application on his site, tying pins 2 and 4 to ground:



I'm not sure if this will solve your problem or not, but it's worth a shot.

[Cananas]

@Silver:
Thank you. So basically, divide the 31KHz to 15Khz and make a composite sync... Oauu! Only one chip to do more than the circuit i built to connect the guncon2 to my old TV/Arcade monitor! (The same circuit that Tivogre posted previosly).

@Tivogre:
Thank You. I'll try it. The capacitor is also diferent: 16uF->100nF and i don't know if is electrolitic or not.
BTW, which is the link to the page of Andy including this circuit?

Thanks again,

[tivogre]

The link is:

http://www.ultimarc.com/images/guncon.jpg

It's just the picture I posted.

[jelwell]

Call me lazy, but does Andy plan on selling pre-wired Guncon to PC chips? With shipping from the UK so expensive I'd almost rather pay extra for a finished product than going to my local shop to get the needed capacitor and resister and deal with soldering again.
Joseph Elwell.

[tivogre]

Call me lazy, but does Andy plan on selling pre-wired Guncon to PC chips? With shipping from the UK so expensive I'd almost rather pay extra for a finished product than going to my local shop to get the needed capacitor and resister and deal with soldering again.
Joseph Elwell.

I can't speak for Andy, but I would think that there would be a market for such an item.  Especially if it had a couple of PS2 ports (with power) and came with a VGA cable that made it "plug and play" with a pair of Guncons.

[Cananas]

Andy has updated the wiring diagram for this application on his site, tying pins 2 and 4 to ground

Connected to ground. Sorry, it doesn't work for me

The capacitor is also diferent: 16uF->100nF

Next step is to change the capacitor, but i think that is not important.

I would think that there would be a market for such an item.  Especially if it had a couple of PS2 ports (with power) and came with a VGA cable that made it "plug and play" with a pair of Guncons.

Yes, I agree. Andy, here there is one buyer...

[jjd]

I would think that there would be a market for such an item.  Especially if it had a couple of PS2 ports (with power) and came with a VGA cable that made it "plug and play" with a pair of Guncons.

Yes, I agree. Andy, here there is one buyer...

I'll second that.

[rbarr110]

From what I am reading is this what tivogore thought he was building?

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/smogdragon/VideoCon3.htm

Anyone successfully built this yet other than Andy at Ultimarc?

[fl0yd]

I'm pretty close to buying a J-Pac to give this a shot, anyone have a used one for sale so I don't have to buy a brand new one?

[tivogre]

I have 3 of the JPAC small chips on order;  as soon as they arrive, I will be building this.

I will post my results here and on my web site.

[fl0yd]

Thanks for pointing out the upgrade chip, I'd missed that part of your post.

I have one on the way too, and will post my results once I've built the circuit.

[Mad Dog]

Hi everyone!

I got a J-Pac chip and build the circuit using the old capacitor...
I put down all my tsting results at Smogs's forum (http://www.freeforumzone.com/viewmessaggi.aspx?f=66424&idd=74)
So far I am not too convinced... it does not seem like a driver issue though. What confuses me most is that e.g. in 800x600, the gun only responds in the upper right hand corner. I can easily tell, because when my gun reads something it switches on the laserpointer automatically...
...
I will try some more resolutions, frequencies etc soon and keep you updated...
But would be good to hear some more from the people who got their guns to work!
What setup, resolutions did you guys use? I am curious! I am far away from playing point blank on my monitor...

[tivogre]

I got my 3 JPAC small chips today.

Now I just have to track down the 680 Ohm resistor and .1 uF capacitor.

I ultimately intend to build this circuite and my 9v / 5v output circuit on one board.

I'll let you guys know when I'm done, and how it works out!

[AndyWarne]

Some updates on this:
First, many resolutions on ordinary VGA cards produce negative sync. The standard J-PAC chip wont divide this properly so I have revised it and produced a special Guncon chip for experimentation. Anyone who has ordered the standard J-PAC chip for this purpose, please drop me an email.
About marketing a product for this: I started to lay out a PCB but put this on hold. The reason is, if selling a product, customers would expect support for it. This means I would need to "own" the solution. The driver is not mine to "own" , but even if I were to come to some arrangement about that aspect, I would not feel confident to guarantee the board would work properly, owing to too much of the solution being outside my control. Thats why I want to support people who want to experiment with this, but don't intend to take it further at the moment.
Andy

[Ixliam]

I'm jumping in and I just ordered the chip, along with some PCB feet (so I can mount my IPAC and OPTIPAC right). Now to raid e-bay for a gun (or two). The circuit looked pretty simple.

[AndyWarne]

Small technical point, in my post, above, I meant that the J-PAC chip has trouble with positive sync, not negative. The ArcadeVGA card always produces negative sync in all modes but normal VGA cards produce a varying polarity, negative for most resolutions but positive for some.
Andy

[Smog]

Hi Andy,
I understand your worries about the customer support but I guess none would blame on you for software problems. The driver is working quite well and functional I think, and as you know others are doing my same work from a while.
However I would like to assure all that I won't leave the project in the next future.

Greetings

[Lilwolf]

Andy, could you make a profit / ie make it worth your time, with only customers from this site?

You could sell them without support and know it doesn't have software support... And maybe only advertise it here.

Anyway, these boards will be enought for support for us.  And I would much rather order a small board then a chip, and goto radio shack, and solder, then find out I !@# somthing up.

[XtraSmiley]

Andy, could you make a profit / ie make it worth your time, with only customers from this site?

You could sell them without support and know it doesn't have software support... And maybe only advertise it here.

Anyway, these boards will be enought for support for us.

[rbarr110]

OK - I am going to make the circuit and try it out, however, I have a question regarding the VGA connection (I figured I would ask here first).

Does the circuit have to be in-line:

[Cananas]

I think is not necessary to be in-line. It can be parallel.

[tivogre]

I got my 3 JPAC small chips today.

Now I just have to track down the 680 Ohm resistor and .1 uF capacitor.

I ultimately intend to build this circuit and my 9v / 5v output circuit on one board.

I'll let you guys know when I'm done, and how it works out!

OK.... I finally got all of the parts and built the circuit with the JPAC small chip.

I am using the following hardware:

     Monitor - Wells Gardner D9200
     Video Card - Nvidia FX5500
     Guns - 2x Scorpion 3 (GunCon2 Mode)
     Driver - Acorn's WinGun v.82B

I haven't experimented with it much yet, but here's the current status:

800x600 mode @ 60Hz

Guns are recognized by the driver.  "A", "B", "C", "START" and D-Pad work correctly.  "Select" and "D" buttons do not register in the driver.

Can't calibrate either gun.

Nearly the EXACT same behavior I got when I built the (incorrect) 15kHz circuit.

The cursor moves as the gun moves, in the same direction, but not at the same speed.  Left and bottom edge boundaries "wrap around" so that one pass top to bottom or right to left moves the cursor about 1 3/4 screens.

I would classify the 800x600 as "unusable" at this time.



640x480 mode @ 70 Hz

Guns are recognized by the driver.  "A", "B", "C", "START" and D-Pad work correctly.  "Select" and "D" buttons do not register in the driver.

I can successfully calibrate both guns.

Tracking is good on the calibration screen, and on the windows desktop with a white background.

MAME lightgun games do not work correctly.  Almost all shots register as off-screen.  Shots near the center of the screen SOMETIMES work.  (This MAY be a MAME set-up issue... not sure yet).

***EDIT***

I have now gotten EggVenture to work correctly with dual light guns, but ONLY from the command line.  Not working yet in MAMEWAH.

I have gotten Area 51 to work SOMEWHAT, but ONLY from the command line.  Not working yet in MAMEWAH.  However, even from the command line, one out of every 2-3 shots registers as a reload vs. a shot.

***END EDIT***

I would classify 640x480 as "promising" at this time.



I'm going to pass this status on to Andy.  I'm also going to discuss with him ordering some of his new chips to see if my 800x600 issues may be solved with the new chip.

I'm open to any / all troubleshooting recommendations.

[SirPoonga]

does the refresh rate make a difference?

[tivogre]

does the refresh rate make a difference?

It might.  However, with the Wells Gardner D9200 monitor, 800x600 is a working, but not a "supported" resolution;  it will only work @ 60Hz as far as I can tell.

I edited my post above to say that I've now had partial success from the command line with EggVenture and to a lesser degree with Area 51.

[Acorn]

tivogre: it sounds like screenflashing isn't enabled/working for you (it does work with the FX series of cards). Either that, or there is glass over your monitor, or dirt on your gun. The gun registers as offscreen whenever it is pointed at black/dark colors (hence the screenflashing when you fire).

The resolutions issue is strange, but I think that monitor supports progressive and interlaced modes at different resolutions. Others have had similar issues with it.

"Select" and "D" not being recognised are interesting... I'll have to get with you and get a log to see what data the gun is returning when they are pressed. Most "D" buttons are just C+Offscreen, but I can't see why Select wouldn't work.

[tivogre]

tivogre: it sounds like screenflashing isn't enabled/working for you (it does work with the FX series of cards). Either that, or there is glass over your monitor, or dirt on your gun. The gun registers as offscreen whenever it is pointed at black/dark colors (hence the screenflashing when you fire).

The resolutions issue is strange, but I think that monitor supports progressive and interlaced modes at different resolutions. Others have had similar issues with it.

"Select" and "D" not being recognised are interesting... I'll have to get with you and get a log to see what data the gun is returning when they are pressed. Most "D" buttons are just C+Offscreen, but I can't see why Select wouldn't work.

There definitely seems to be some issue going on with the timing of the screen flash.

I can see the screen flash when I pull the trigger, but about 1/3 - 2/3 of shots in A51 register as off screen reloads.  If I crank up the gamma and brightness, the accuracy is great.... It just look like the screen is always "flashed".  Almost  like the read of position is not happening while the screen is bright.  Very strange.

There is glass over the monitor, but it and the gun are clean.  The glass is clear glass.  It works fine on brighter games or if I "artificially brighten".

[Lilwolf]

could this be the positive / negative sync signal being sent? 

You might consider trying to get it working on a standard VGA monitor and see if the some resolutions work and others dont.  Also that utility that allows you to set all your monitor / refresh settings down to a the mhz.... what is it called???...  That allows you to specify the sync to be positive or negative.  Might be able to install the demo and try it.

[Dexter]

does the refresh rate make a difference?

It might.

[Silver]

Not been up to date with this (or the newer jpac chip) but you can set the polarity of  the syncs at any resolution if you have a radeon - its in the driver settings.

Powerstrip will also let you do this if its supported by the card.

[rbarr110]

Anyone have any new updates on this using the updated/modified J-pac chip?

[fl0yd]

I haven't had a chance to build the circuit yet, but I hope to do so in the next week or so.

Any others?

[olsteve]

I built the circuit with the 'new' chip. I can't get it to work. I have tried both drivers (smog's, wingun). I took it back apart and verified that I have the wiring correct. I am using XP. I can not get the gun or screen to recognize each other at all. Any ideas?

[rbarr110]

I built the circuit with the 'new' chip. I can't get it to work. I have tried both drivers (smog's, wingun). I took it back apart and verified that I have the wiring correct. I am using XP. I can not get the gun or screen to recognize each other at all. Any ideas?

How is the circuit wired to the monitor?  Any pics to how it is connected?

Video card ----->circuit-------->monitor 
                             |
                              --------->Light gun

?

[olsteve]

I have it wired using a vga splitter cable. The monitor looks fine. When I go into the calibration screen there is no response at all to gun movement. The trigger does activate the screen flash. I can get the cursor to move with the trackball but nothing with the gun.

[Silver]

Sounds odd.... I take it the gun is detected ok by the drivers? (You have a guncon listed in device manager?).

Is your VGA splitter powered? I've never used one, and its possible that there is something it is doing that does not work with the gun. I've only tested (with the old chip) where I've directly pulled the syncs from the VGA cable, or used a direct pass through of the syncs on a monitor.

[olsteve]

 Yes the drivers know the gun is there. The VGA splitter is just a 'Y' cable that has two outputs from the pc (no power).
 I will attach a pic of the circuit that I added some clarification to. Let me know if it is correct.

[Silver]

I can't remember the exact pinout of a VGA but I'm sure you've checked the pinout.

I assume you've connected the -ve end of the Capacitor on the right to the other grounds on the left. Not sure if you need to ground the vsync input or not.

I came across some issues (with the old chip) regarding sync polarity and termination. The old chip needed -ve syncs, not sure about the new one. Try a couple of different resolutions, most VGA cards seem to change sync polarity at different resolutions, or use powerstrip to ensure what you are outputting (or if you have a radeon, you get set the syncs in display properties).

For termination issues, add an rca cable to the the gun rca connecter (they are always dual connectors, so plug in your rca connector from the circuit in one, and then connect the other to another cable. For a quick test you can then stick this cable in a tv - you should be alble to notice a stable black picture (I know its sounds dumb, but there is normally a difference between nothing connected on a tv and a black signal.) This will both ensure you have good syncs on the RCA, and at the same time will terminate the composite sync signal.

EDIT: I believe I've noticed an error in your wiring. I believe sync ground is actually pin 10, whereas you seem to have hooked up pin 5. I know some VGA pinouts just list pins 5-6-7-8-10 as ground but actually 5 was the old TTL groun, 6 is RED ground, 7 blue ground, 8 green ground. Try hooking up pin 10 instead. You have 13 and 14 correct for the syncs.

[olsteve]

 I believe the new chip is supposed to cure the sync polarity issue.
 Yes, the cap is tied to all the other grounds.
 What is the powerstrip thingy that you are refering to? 
 I did ohm out the grounds on the VGA connector and they all seemed to be tied together (5-6-7-8-10). I will double check when I get home (I am at work now).

[Silver]

Powerstrip is a windows program giving you hardware level control over most graphics cards - modifying and creating custom resolutions down to the size of the front porch... Its fiddly to use though. However, if the new chip gets around sync polarity, then you will not need it.

The grounds maybe tied together - I just assumed they would not be (why else have seperate pins for all the grounds).

[olsteve]

In fact the grounds are NOT all tied together. I just attached the first wire (BLK) that ohm'd out to the first ground pin I touched. I will correct tonight and report back later.

[olsteve]

I fixed the circuit and double checked all the connections. I still can't get it to work. I am frustrated.

[rbarr110]

The only thing I still dont understand is how a VGA "Y" splitter can work for the signal. 

 
                             |----------->Monitor
VGA ------>Splitter-|                                                 
                             |------>Circuit ------>Gun

If the circuit isn't in line with the monitor how is the signal at the monitor capable of working with the 15khz gun? 


Or does the circuit make the gun work at the VGA 30khz signal?  What am I missing here?

[Smog]

I don't understand what you have wrong with the scheme :

                                  31Khz
      31Khz                |----------->Monitor
VGA -------->Splitter-|    31Khz              15Khz                             
                                |------------>Circuit --------->Gun

[rbarr110]

I guess what my question is - what exactly is the circuit doing? 

I was under the impression it took the 31 Khz signal from the PC's VGA card and converted it to 15 khz so that the 15khz gun could work with the signal on the screen.

Or is the circuit taking a VGA signal and modifiying it to something the gun will recognize and has nothing to do with the actual 31 khz signal at the screen?

[Silver]

The circuit has nothing to do with the monitor or the signal getting to it.

The whole point of the circuit is to allow the guns - which are designed to only work with 15Khz composite sync devices, such as a playstation - to work while using a PC VGA Monitor (which operates at 31Khz, with seperate syncs).

The signal going to the monitor is untouched. But the circuit takes the syncs from the signal, changes them to 15Khz composite sync, and that is passed to the gun. You don't need a Y-splitter, but its probably an easy way of doing it (if it works).

The gun will also work without the circuit if you are just sending a 15Khz signal to the monitor and gun. In this case you will need 1) VGA card capable of outputing 15Khz signal WITH COMPOSITE SYNC. (I know modern radeons can be made to do this) 2) A monitor which can display 15Khz. But then this has been covered in other threads - the whole point of this thread is to use the guncon on a normal pc with a normal PC Monitor.

[rbarr110]

OK - thanks silver, I better understand what the circuit does.  I don't see why a "Y" adapter wouldn't work. 

Any progress on getting your circuit to work Olsteve?  You have it on a "Y" adapter correct?  You tried it yet off the "Y" adapter?

I am asking all the question before I order the modified J-pac chip and building my circuit...

[nullb0y]

so this works?
are there kits out ?
im a cheap ass and am slightly confused now


oh id probably need a faster mopnitor mine has horrible ghosting worse then any lcd ive ever seen

[olsteve]

I still haven't had any success with this. I have kind of given up. I may just end up going with the ACT Labs gun?? It really puts a damper on the whole BYO/DIY philosophy.

[66miles99]

This is an uneducated question as my post count will testify but nonetheless, from a VGA graphics card with TV out, could you run the monitor from the VGA signal and the gun from the TV-out signal? I kinda figure it is not nearly this easy (it never is), but could someone at least explain why this wont work?

[Cananas]

It doesn't work because both signal are independent one each other.

Andy, i'm having no time to test your guncon2 chip. The first time i tried, it work better than the first chip. I'll build a new circuit to ensure that the components are OK.

[tivogre]

I've now built the circuit around Andy's jpac small chip AND his newer guncon chip.

I have 2 guns working perfectly (as good or better than the Act-Labs) using the jpac smallchip.  This is only at 640x480 resolution, but that's not an issue for me.

I have NOT had success with the guncon chip.

Again, this is with an nvidia card and WG 9200 27" monitor.

At this time, I think I'm in good shape, as I can play most of the shooters (that I'm interested in) with two players perfectly.

[nullb0y]

DUMB QUESTION IS THERE A WAY TO GET A GUNCON 2 TO WORK ON MY PC'S SVIDEO OUT? sorry for caps

[Silver]

Yes so long as your are connecting your monitor/tv by the same S-video. Its the easiest way.

There is extensive info on connecting on the two Guncon driver sites. Check the thread.

[AndyWarne]

I re-tested today. Installed the latest driver and used my "Z-Gun" chip which is the revised version of the J-PAC small chip which can handle (ie divide) positive sync. It works fine at 640 X 480 and 800 X 600. No problems at all. The cursor is rather jittery at 800 X 600 but that's probably to be expected given the technology of the gun.
To move things forward, can anyone on this thread who has the later chip, and can't get it to work, drop me an email. What we might be able to do is to send me your complete circuit and gun and I'll check things over.
I am wondering if the make of the gun has a bearing. Mine is the blue Namco NPC-106
andy@ultimarc.com

[Fozzy The Bear]

Andy, I'm thinking of having a go at this.... I'm in the UK so shipping a chip to me would be no problem.

I've got my paws on a Logic3 PS099L  Which is G-Con2 Compatible and has a USB plug....  Anybody tried one of these???

My main worry is screwing up my VGA card or monitor in the process.... Is anybody planning to produce a board with your chip that I can just use? I know there's a risk that it may not work and that it's not a commercial release product. But while I'm handy with a soldering iron I'm not 100% confident I won't screw up somewhere with it.

Can anybody on here offer any help with this??

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

Sorry to bump this.... but has this topic gone off the boil ?? can Anybody help out here??

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ZeroPoint]

Crash test dummies wanted ! 

Anyone using a PC-monitor wanting to test this circuit...?

I have to ask this because I am considering if and when to produce a few pcs.

The circuit will also be compatible with 15Khz monitors, but the main reason with this is to be able to use the GunCon2s on 31Khz monitors, so crash test dummies must be using a PC-monitor.

I was thinking of sending about 5 pcs. for free.

There is also a design issue here. To take 5V power from pin9 on the VGA connector or to power the circuit with a USB-cable. Modern graphics cards usually have 5V on pin 9 but the cables usually have pin 9 removed. Any comments on this !?

Please don

[Silver]

I'd probably opt for volts off the USB. Not as neat as VGA, but you would be sure to run into a few cards that wouldn't like supplying power off the VGA card.

[fl0yd]

I would be interested in one.  I too would prefer to see the voltage come from USB or a dedicated drive power cable.

[rbarr110]

Crash test dummies wanted !

[dennis808]

I would be very interested to test this as well!
I've succesfully built and used a VGA-to-RGB-SCART cable to use my 2 GunCons in a 15KHz environment and I'm really curious to test it on my 31Khz monitor as well.

[Lilwolf]

I would vote for USB. 

But with a few jumpers you might be able to do both.  The header for a usb connector might be more expensive then you want to deal with. 

I would probably vote for from the VGA but with an option to plug +5 and ground in from another source.  And you can jumper it off from the vga and onto the other power (usb or external) if you want.

The other thing, if you need a extension cable anyway, you might want to just find someone selling one that has that going throught the cable and selling it with it.  I have extra cables at home, but I would guess a decent amount of potential customers wouldn't.

[ZeroPoint]

Thanks for the reply !

...and the winners are: Silver, fl0yd, rbarr110, dennis808 and Lilwolf. That should be five. 

Not sure if Silver and Lilwolf wants one. Could you please confirm this or not...or there will be two more to go...?

I will get on with these as soon as possible. I will post a picture of a complete unit when finished. Then I need some adresses.

Please feel free to suggest any additional features in the meantime.

Thanks !

[ZeroPoint]

Sorry, Fozzy the Bear ! I forgot to read my messages...although I wasn

[Silver]

Yes I'm game - I'll be able to compare to the home-made hack with a jpac chip (the original version, not the "designed for guns" update. Although I may grab one of those of andy to complete the set.....

[vibez]

Hey guys. Long time since I have read this thread. Can anyone update me on what the updated jpac chip is for?

I'm running my guncon via the jpac/arcadevga on a 15hz arcade monitor. will it provide any benifits to me?

The only problem i'm having is that the gun doesn't seem to register on some (possibly interlaced) resolutions

[rbarr110]

Just wanted to add my $0.02,  I think USB port for power would be better than trying to pull it from the VGA pin 9.

[Silver]

Hey guys. Long time since I have read this thread. Can anyone update me on what the updated jpac chip is for?

I'm running my guncon via the jpac/arcadevga on a 15hz arcade monitor. will it provide any benifits to me?

The only problem i'm having is that the gun doesn't seem to register on some (possibly interlaced) resolutions

This is mainly about using a PC monitor, so if you are on a arcade monitor you are already set.resolution wise, I think the general consensus was forcing gun games to a set resolution. I believe this removes the need for constant calibration also...

[vibez]

This is mainly about using a PC monitor, so if you are on a arcade monitor you are already set.resolution wise, I think the general consensus was forcing gun games to a set resolution. I believe this removes the need for constant calibration also...

Cheers for clearing that up Silver 

[Fozzy The Bear]

Staying Tuned as requested....

I'd also agree that using the USB port for power is a much better idea. Pulling it from pin 9 on the D-Sub could have some other undesireable effects as well as putting a strain on the graphics card power output, especially on cards that relly solely on the AGP bus for their power.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
Best Regards,

[XtraSmiley]

Anyword guys?  Still testing?

[Mad Dog]

Yes, (thanks to Andy) I got to testing the gunchip...

and I tested on every possible hardware I could get my hands on...

For the power I used a universal AC adaptor that I can plug intio the circuit... So there's a plug for power on it and one to put the guns video cable in... worked ok in 640x480...
But that's not enough for me... It did track in higher resolutions, but the cursor was going crazy on th X-Axis... no matter what I tried...

And just when I though: "Don't give up just now!!!", I read about this: http://www.hkems.com/product/xbox/LCDTopGun.htm

I think thats the technology Andy used to work on (I think I read that somewhere), and (may I remind you) the technology Nintendo used for its SNES Super Scope...
I know it might not be an ideal sollution for your Cabs out there, cause you'll have to build it in...
From what I have read here: http://www.guncon2driver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104

it works really fine...
My main goal is to play the godlike AMERICAN LASERGAMES like Mad Dog Mc Cree, and so far I couldn't even do that on TV using Guncons, cause none of the two driver programmers could make the mpegs flash so the gun could track (remeber how the guncons don't work on dark spots on the screen).

No with that gun I won't have to worry about screen flashing, and it only costs 30 bucks...
I will certainly not try Act Labs new "movement" Gun http://www.act-labs.com/products/gun1.htm

called segital gun.... probably similar technology like nintendo's new miracle controller...

So I hope I got you all up to date...
I'll drop a note once I bought that infra red gun...
Until then - peace!
I'm outie

[djpc47]

anyone know if this circuit would work http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/syncbox.gif which I've used for my lcd project..... or theres a specific reason to use that ic to do the combining???.....

thanx

as far as the lcd project goes, works great.... combines h+v sync to csync very well.... got the text slightly more crisp.... rest is just up to powerstrip......

[Silver]

That circuit is a generic Seperate-syncs to composite sync circuit. It works great for combining syncs, but won't work like the circuit mentioned on this thread.

The difference is that to use a Guncon2 gun (designed for TV's, at 15.75Khz horizontal sync) with a PC monitor (running at 31Khz horizontal sync or higher) you need to halve the sync (31/2=15.5). Andy's chip can do this (he made it for his Jpac system which halves the VGA sync to stop you damaging an arcade monitor). Hence the special IC.

[djpc47]

oh so if I set my refreshrate right then any circuit will really work then right?..... that who thing that it caps to 15 sounds nice..... will think about it since the mame box I want to make will indeed be using a arcade monitor;P....

anyone know if you pay shipping on the ic? I'm maybe gonna order one:P

[ARTIFACT]

What's the latest on this?

I am putting together a cabinet, and if there is a way to use a lightgun, I'd like to know!

Thanks in advance... I found this thread because it's linked from the Wiki:
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Light_Guns

[XtraSmiley]

What's the latest on this?

I am putting together a cabinet, and if there is a way to use a lightgun, I'd like to know!

Thanks in advance... I found this thread because it's linked from the Wiki:
http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Light_Guns

Back from the dead!  What did happen with this?  I have a Betson, an AVG and 2 Sony brand Guncon2s, am I out of luck?

[Fozzy The Bear]

Back from the dead!  What did happen with this?  I have a Betson, an AVG and 2 Sony brand Guncon2s, am I out of luck?

Yes.... It never worked properly.... Andy tested it, I tested it, and a few others as well. Nobody Ever got it to work in a useable way.

Your choice is either Act Labs Guns or LCD Topgun.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[ZeroPoint]

The original "GunCon2 on PC-monitor" circuit really works very well. I have not tested Andy's circuit, but I can tell you how mine works. There are no microcontrollers, just standard logic circuits used. One XOR, one FLIP-FLOP and one AND gate.

It is really simple:
First a standard XOR sync combinder circuit. After the first XOR gate for the horizontal sync I just divide the signal through a D-type positiv edge triggered FLIP-FLOP. To get the original sync width back I "AND" this result with the original signal from the XOR gate and feed this resulting signal back to complete the XOR circuit. The last stage in the quad XOR inverts the signal into a negativ composite sync that needs to be divided with resistors (not the best way) to give the proper voltage to feed the gun.

I tested this circuit up to 1024x768 60Hz on both the original Blue Namco Gun and the Scorpion gun. Both working very well.

Pros:
More original feel than the LCD topgun
Gun can be used much closer than the LCD topgun

Cons:
Needs flashing of the screen to work properly.
Calibration is resolution dependent
Only for 31Khz+ CRTs (Possible to make it autosensing for dividing or not for use from15Khz and upwards)
Works best or only with lightgun games where the LCD TopGun can be used for nearly every game that can be controlled with a mouse

My recommendation is to use the LCD TopGun with SMOG's driver. I recommend to take the leds out (or use one high bright instead of three) and mount them as close as possible to the screen. You can also bring them closer together vertically than original.

Anyway...if someone wants the schematics, tell me so.

[lanman31337]

Can't you use a card that has dual outputs - like component or rca video - and hook the gun(s) up in there as the 2nd input, and use the pc on the vga as the main?

[ahofle]

Can't you use a card that has dual outputs - like component or rca video - and hook the gun(s) up in there as the 2nd input, and use the pc on the vga as the main?

And where would you plug the RCA/component cables?

[lanman31337]

You wouldn't, you'd just plug in the guns.  From what I've heard people have hooked up televisions using the s-video on the card to the tv, and then plugged into the green component connector for their gun.

[ARTIFACT]

OK so ...

http://www.act-labs.com/products/gun1.htm

Can I use this and use S-Video with a TV (sony Trinitron, 27")?
That's what I use in my cabinet.

thanks!

[lettuce]

Hang on a minute, im a bit lost here. Are the problems people are having with the Namco GunCon2 due to that they want to use it on a PC or Arcade Monitor?? I am thinking of adding a lightgun to my cab, but i am using a normal TV connect to my PC via a VGA to Scart cable and Andy's ArcadeVGA card. How do people using a Normal TV get the Guncon2 working, do they still need the extra J-PAC etc hardeware, or just get the Guncon2mouse or GunCon2PC software?

[Silver]

No, this thread is (or was) all about using the guncon2's on PC monitors - i.e. 31Khz or higher horizontal scan rates. (hence jpacs and circuits to cut this down to standard TV 15Khz).

If you are using a TV as a display you should not have any significant problems....

[lettuce]

Ok cool, so on the end of the GunCon2 you have the USB plug and a yellow phone plug that used to plug into the back of the PS2, where does the yellow phono plug plug into?

[Silver]

Ok cool, so on the end of the GunCon2 you have the USB plug and a yellow phone plug that used to plug into the back of the PS2, where does the yellow phono plug plug into?

Thats the TV-out signal. So you take the composite TV-out from the gfx card, to the guncon2 yellow phono (which is a pass-through connector) and then from the gun to the TV's video in.

If you are using S-video or Component, then you need to split off the syncs to the gun and then on to the TV (e.g. in component, the 'green' would have to go via the gun.)

[lettuce]

Ah, im using a VGA to Scart lead to connect my video card up to my TV, as im in the UK. How would that work?

[Silver]

How are you knocking the signal down to 15Khz?

I assume you are using an RGB signal down the scart. Scart connectors can carry seperate syncs, as well as composite sync, as well as sync-on-green. What you are using depends on your gfx card/software setup.

[ZeroPoint]

Since you are using the ArcadeVGA card, it already outputs 15Khz sync signal. What I don't know is how your VGA to Scart cable is buildt. The gfx-card outputs 5 volts on the h and v sync so there must be at least one resistor there to get the voltage down (since the scart has 75 ohm impedance this can be done). In your cable there must also be some circuit to combine the h and v sync to composite sync. Many ways to Rome. Connecting them together (and a resistor) could be done since you are using the ArcadeVGA card that outputs both h and v sync negative. Another way is to use diodes. The best and most reliable way is to use an xor gate that outputs negative composite sync no matter what polarity you put into it.

Anyway, since you are already using a vga to scart cable that works it must produce a composite sync signal some way or the other. All you need to do to connect you GunCon's yellow plug to your composite sync (center) and ground pin on your scart plug. I don't rembember at the moment which pin number this is, just that you should use the same pins that comes from the gfx-card (after the sync combine circuit) via the cable (sync ones) and not the output pins on the scart plug. (There are both input and output pins.) The impedance in the gun is so high that it won't steal any voltage. But if you cable uses a resistor to drop the voltage, disconnecting the scart plug from the TV would result in feeding the gun with 5V. I think it can handle that, but don blame me if it doesn't.  Split a phono extension cord and connect that so you won't have to cut you GunCon's cable.

Just remember that different resolutions (refresh rates etc.) may need different calibration. Try sticking to one res for guncon games. It should work great if you can handle the calibration routine.

[lettuce]

Im trying to remember what i did in order to get the scart cable to work with my TV. I think i soldered a wire between the V & H sync pins, and that game me a picture

[lettuce]

Ok, im a bit lost at what i need to do regarding my VGA to Scart lead. Heres a pic of the inside of the scart socket



What pins would i have to solder extar wires to that would go to the yellow phobo plug of the GunCon2?

[ZeroPoint]

Connect the center to the burgundy wire (pin 20 - upper left) and ground to the black wire (pin 17 - 2nd lower left). This is "composite sync" and "composite sync return / ground"

It looks like this is the kind of cable that connects the sync (pin 13 on the vga plug) directly to pin 20 on the scart. This is not the correct way to connect to a scart. It may work or not with this cable. The pinout should be correct I hope. 

[lettuce]

So are you saying this scart lead is wired incorrectly??