MAMEDev's pull auctions without MAME

[VMJ Team]

Yes you are right...maim is more of descriptive word that I was looking for...but a moot point.

I am not provoking anything here...just defending my business.

[quarterback]

Hey CyberPunk, since you ignored my question the last 2 times I asked it, I'll have to conclude that you did use the word "mameroom" in your auction.

[Tiger-Heli]

I forgot to mention...if this does go down and Mameroom was to prevail....we will turn around and file claim that "mame" is violating our business name.

Not sure how well that would stand up.  Mame was around first and is the reason your company is named Mameroom, even if Mameroom was the first to use it in commerce.

[Chris]

Not sure how well that would stand up.

[VMJ Team]

No, mame or mameroom was not mentioned anywhere in my auction items.

Whether or not it would stand up or not...it's not my responsibility to prove that "Mameroom" is derived from "mame"...it's theirs.

[Shape D.]

Whether or not it would stand up or not...it's not my responsibility to prove that "Mameroom" is derived from "mame"...it's theirs.  I'm not sure what their arguement would be.

This maybe?

[VMJ Team]

Mame was around first and is the reason your company is named Mameroom

That is NOT the reason for my company name and I have already prepared to prove it.

I really didn't want this to turn into a back-and-forth...whether or not it's sound advice, I feel comfortable with the advise I am receiving...I can only be prepared for what happens.

[VMJ Team]

I am very happy to report that I just received an email from Aaron stating that he has contact ebay to correct the matter.

Out of a new found respect for both Aaron and his trademark...I will be removing all trademarked links/logos from the www.mameroom.com website.

[markrvp]

Out of a new found respect for both Aaron and his trademark...I will be removing all trademarked links/logos from the www.mameroom.com website.

Can you elaborate on that to prevent furthur speculation?

[whammoed]

Mame was around first and is the reason your company is named Mameroom

That is NOT the reason for my company name and I have already prepared to prove it.

I really didn't want this to turn into a back-and-forth...whether or not it's sound advice, I feel comfortable with the advise I am receiving...I can only be prepared for what happens.

Just curious:  When I see Mameroom I thought for sure it was a combo of MAME + Gameroom.  I'm curious as to how you came about that name?

[RayB]

You all realize that a TM will not appear in the USPTO... only (R) marks.

Also, you all realize, you can have the same trademark but be in a different market, and co-exist legally, right? ie: Apple the record label and Apple the computer company.

[VMJ Team]

Just curious:

[VMJ Team]

Can you elaborate on that to prevent furthur speculation?

I will be removing all links on the www.mameroom.com website the point to mame development sites such as

mameworld.com
mamedev.com
mame.net

I will only display links to related building and information sites such as:

arcadecontrols.com
retroblast.com

I know what is coming next...what about the links that point to a site that is doing something with Mame? 

A.  I am not a judge, nor do I want to pretend that I know exactly who's violating what...so as long as it remains unchecked or unpersued, those links will remain.  The minute I find that one of my links points to a site that has been found guilty of committing a crime, that link is gone too.

[monkeybomb]

There's been like ten posts since I started this but I'm posting anyway.

Whether or not it would stand up or not...it's not my responsibility to prove that "Mameroom" is derived from "mame"...it's theirs.  I'm not sure what their argument would be.

This maybe?

I can't see the difference in any of this stuff in the big picture.  Why are you giving cyberpunk a hard time and not Andy and Randy? From what I can see if MAMEdev could try to go after them they would.  It seems that they are mad that people have made money on emulation at all.  *wrong*

In my eyes they all have businesses based on emulation in general.  Without the free exchange of ROMS and willingness for customers to pirate the games, I don't think any of these businesses would exist.

Having said that, I don't quite get what the expectations of MAMEdev was when they released all this.  They give the documentation angle, but I've never bought it.  Why release it in the way that it is?  What is documentation without the ability to play the games?  Who are they documenting this for anyway?

My problem is how hypocritical all this is.

as a completely different theory.
Is it possible that they have been given advice to be as aggressive as possible to document an attempt to keep the project "about documentation".  It seems that they are truly at risk of huge lawsuits.  Do they really think they can win a lawsuit against Cyberpunk or do they just feel they need to file it anyway.  Or at least document that they explored the opportunity.

[VMJ Team]

I just want it to be made clear so there isn't any negative publicity brought about by my posts...

Mamedevs never brought up lawsuit...it was the lack of response that kicked me into defense mode.  Being fueled mostly by the community in this forum...I was feed the idea that my company name was the reason for the initial ebay attacks.  After reading multiple posts on how legitimate ebay items and users were being suspended...I didn't want to get caught with my pants down.

Being that I work at a lawfirm, I simply was listening the free advise (not counsel) of one of our experts.

As the owner of serveral copyrights and tradmarks myself.  I understand where mamedev may be coming from...but disaprove of the castopo tactics.  They simply had to ask me to remove or reword my auctions.  I would have been more than happy to comply.

[KenToad]

I just want it to be made clear so there isn't any negative publicity brought about by my posts...

Mamedevs never brought up lawsuit...it was the lack of response that kicked me into defense mode. Being fueled mostly by the community in this forum...I was feed the idea that my company name was the reason for the initial ebay attacks. After reading multiple posts on how legitimate ebay items and users were being suspended...I didn't want to get caught with my pants down.

Being that I work at a lawfirm, I simply was listening the free advise (not counsel) of one of our experts.

As the owner of serveral copyrights and tradmarks myself. I understand where mamedev may be coming from...but disaprove of the castopo tactics. They simply had to ask me to remove or reword my auctions. I would have been more than happy to comply.

Well, I don't know about others, but I would not be deterred from doing business with you guys.  It seems like you resolved things very well and I can understand that you were pissed after having your auctions removed and Ebay account suspended. 

I would like to personally thank you for being so open here on the forums and for raising some thought-provoking questions about how the Mamedevs aren't necessarily going to have an easy ride in court if it comes down to it.  Also, the fact that you work at a law firm and actually received legal advice lends merit to your words.  I think maybe Aaron Giles should heed the advice here also, which is that these tactics are eventually going to piss somebody off who doesn't think MAME is an unfinished program and will fight to the death to keep their company alive if backed into a corner. 

Cheers,
KenToad

[Crazy Cooter]

One thing to remember is that part of having a TM is restricting its use.  The Mamedevs are doing what they legally have to.  This is the second case I know of where they are working with a legitimate company to clear up the hiccups/mistakes/whatever.

Again I remind you guys what a monumental task it would be to go through ebay and read each auction.  Is anyone familiar with how this is automated?  I'm curious how ebay does it.  I would think that ebay would send out a notice that the posted auction violated something and give 12/24 hours to "fix" it.  Or does ebay just shoot it down?  It might be ebays "fault" more than the Mamedevs.  I dunno.  Maybe there is a sensitivity adjustment or something.

[Chris]

You all realize that a TM will not appear in the USPTO... only (R) marks.

Both Nicola's and Dave Foley's applications appear in the database I linked to.

Also, you all realize, you can have the same trademark but be in a different market, and co-exist legally, right? ie: Apple the record label and Apple the computer company.

This is the category I referred to in the other thread.  Nicola's application is for software, which is why he's not protected from someone putting MAME on a T-shirt, cabinet, or arcade button, for example.  If you look at Ford, they'll have their trademark for both cars and related merchandise like T-shirts and such.

--Chris

[monkeybomb]

  If you look at Ford, they'll have their trademark for both cars and related merchandise like T-shirts and such.

--Chris

Didn't they also claim rights to the logo too?  Would that make a difference?

[Chris]

[monkeybomb]

I don't know of your fight with interplay, can you give me a link?

[markrvp]

I think one of the things to consider here is that all the talk is surrounding EBAY.

[Crazy Cooter]

What will stop the Ebay abuse is when someone sues the MAMEdevs directly for loss of income due to having auctions pulled and/or accounts suspended that do not violate the TM terms. 

Depends on if the Mamedevs singled them out personally or if it was caught in a filter.  If it was caught in a filter, then ebay might be on the hook.  Depends on how it all works internally.

So they could go after a marquee with the MAME logo, but couldn't go after a marquee with the Pixelhugger Atomic MAME logo (although Pixelhugger could).

Actually I think they could.  Isn't that why the entry is text only?  I think it would be similar to me tring to sell my "atomic ford" vehicles with a brown rectangular emblem.  Something like an implied affiliation or some crap.

[Chris]

I don't know of your fight with interplay, can you give me a link?

There isn't a site for it, although there is a brief mention of it at http://www.mobygames.com/game/demise-rise-of-the-kutan/trivia.

[Tiger-Heli]

No hard feelings, CyberPunk, don't take any of this as hostile.

Okay, first-off, despite the previous posts by Cyberpunk - I still believe the name mameroom  was a combination of mame (the emulator) and Gameroom.  I don't think I'd want to argue in court that there was a gameroom in my business's town where people got stabbed, and it was referred to as the maimroom and I thought that would be cool to name my business after, but I got sloppy on the spelling.

Also, I think the links to mameworld and such will be removed from www.mameroom.com less to please MAMEdev, and more as a way for CP to try to distance his company from the MAME project, should things take an ugly turn.

A bit of history - CyberPunk caused a bit of trouble on this forum in years past over forum members either giving away or reselling his cabinet plans after purchasing them.  (Again, not trying to whack the hornet's nest, just trying to fill in the newbie's who may not be aware of past history).

I can't see the difference in any of this stuff in the big picture.  Why are you giving cyberpunk a hard time and not Andy and Randy?

Andy and Randy aren't threatening to sue the MAME team for trademark infringement (although their company names don't contain MAME in them, so they would have a tough time of it.)

From what I can see if MAMEdev could try to go after them they would.  It seems that they are mad that people have made money on emulation at all.  *wrong*

I know this got struck-thru, but MAMEdev is trying to eliminate people saying "MAME arcade wheel MAMEcab Emulator www.mame.net" on E-bay to sell minimally related hardware.  They have not said anything about Andy or Randy, but look at GGG's site:  There is one paragraph that says the KeyWiz is mame-ready out-of-the-box.  No other mention of MAME.  Look at the I-PAC page - There is a reference under programming which says you can set a jumper to enable the MAME codeset, and another reference under the LED header, which says that MAME flashes the LED's on coin insert in some games, to explain how they might be used.  This is basically in keeping with MAMEdev's comments about "you can say "works with MAME one time."

In my eyes they all have businesses based on emulation in general.  Without the free exchange of ROMS and willingness for customers to pirate the games, I don't think any of these businesses would exist.

Keyboard encoders have uses outside of emulation - PC games, CNC machines, kiosks, etc, but yeah, it would take a huge chunk out of their profits.

Having said that, I don't quite get what the expectations of MAMEdev was when they released all this.  They give the documentation angle, but I've never bought it.  Why release it in the way that it is?  What is documentation without the ability to play the games?  Who are they documenting this for anyway?
My problem is how hypocritical all this is.

Well, it's like this - we can say we wrote a cool program to play tons of copyrighted games, but we'll probably get shut down in a few months when the copyright owners learn about it, or we can call it a documentation project, and maybe they'll let it slide.

I posted recently that JC Whitney used to sell a "test" pipe that was an exact fit - length and mounting flanges - for the factory catalytic converter.  They didn't market this as "Dump your catylytic converter for this straight pipe and save yourself $380.00 (but you won't be in compliance with emission laws)" - They marketed it as "Install this test pipe and if your car runs better, you know the catylytic converter was blocked and can spend $400.00 on a new one."

Or the "roach clips" with feathers that were sold as rear-view mirror decorations.

It's the same thing - a product has to have some legal purpose to continue to exist.  MAME's legal purpose is documentation.

as a completely different theory.
Is it possible that they have been given advice to be as aggressive as possible to document an attempt to keep the project "about documentation".  It seems that they are truly at risk of huge lawsuits.

What they are looking at is if any of these companies goes down - lets say Namco sues DreamArcades, or Tokn 16, or Happ - if these companies have MAME links and MAME references all over their sites, there is a very real possibility that MAMEdev will be cited as a willing party and accomplice to the copyright infringement (good chance they might be anyway but it is prudent to minimize this).

Also - unlike a copyright or patent - unless a trademark owner actively takes steps to ensure the trademark is protected from unauthorized use, they run the risk of it being ruled as public domain and not trademark-protected.

Do they really think they can win a lawsuit against Cyberpunk or do they just feel they need to file it anyway.  Or at least document that they explored the opportunity.

MAMEdev is not sueing Cyberpunk. 

CP is in this difficult situation -
MAME was created and became popular.
CP started MAMEroom as, <cough>, a reference to a gameroom stabbing site.
MAME is trying to limit useage of it's name (or derivatives?) in commercial venues.

Too early to tell how this will play out for them both.

[monkeybomb]

Do they really think they can win a lawsuit against Cyberpunk or do they just feel they need to file it anyway.  Or at least document that they explored the opportunity.

MAMEdev is not sueing Cyberpunk. 

Yeah, It was stated after my post, but I left it for a reason.  Let's say that MAMEdev if fine with CP but still needs all CYA documentation.  I think that simply asking  lawyer if there is a case makes a difference in documenting their intent to enforce trademanrk.  Even if they would never do it.

I agree with your point about the "documentation" aspect, but many don't.  People get crazy and call burners scumbags and such.  They point to the documentation claim and act like we are not supposed to play at all.

[VMJ Team]

No hard feelings, CyberPunk, don't take any of this as hostile.

No hostility at all, but a few inacuracies...Yes, I created a stir about copyright infringement (rightfully so, I might add).

Yes, I want to distance myself from this entire ordeal (not if things take an ugly turn...because part of me really wants that to go down...I like my odds)

..at one point in time, it was nice to be a part of something and to offer something back (whether free, or charge for a service or product)...but it's quite apparant, since none of my other products create such drama...that my dealings in the arcade related industry have created more stress than I'd like...for example.

[Shape D.]

No hostility at all, but a few inacuracies...Yes, I created a stir about copyright infringement (rightfully so, I might add).

I'd be pissed too if something I worked on was given away by someone who didn't have the right to be giving it away.

Just to note I didn't mean a lot of those questions as why are you doing this. I honestly didn't know where your name comes from, and the obvious guess would be that it is from MAME. Good to know where it comes from now though.

Although where did you get the user name CyberPunk from?  J/K

[Tiger-Heli]

I'd be pissed too if something I worked on was given away by someone who didn't have the right to be giving it away.

I purposely left out some details to avoid "whacking the hornet's nest", but now I will add some details.

"who didn't have the right to be giving it away" - There's the rub.  CP was selling plans.  He didn't license the plans to the user (like Microsoft does), he sold them outright.  They probably were copyrighted, but that typically precludes someone else from selling duplicates of them, not giving away the originals (unless they specifically said something like "copyright for use only by the original purchaser, no redistribution allowed", but I don't think they did.  Now if I buy an OSCAR spinner from OSCAR for full price, and then decide I don't want to play spinner games, I can sell or give away the spinner on the boards and OSCAR can't complain that I am hurting his profits b/c he made the profit initially.  (Of course this rarely happens b/c if I give away the spinner I can no longer play spinner games).  In the case of cabinet plans, once someone built the cabinet, the original plans were of little use to them, so there wasn't a huge disincentive to giving them away.

No hostility at all, but a few inacuracies...Yes, I created a stir about copyright infringement (rightfully so, I might add).

I'm not really arguing your right to be upset at the time, and I think it all was resolved pretty well, but threatening to shut down BYOAC b/c of the actions of a few members was probably not the best way to resolve it, but it's all water under the bridge (to me, at least) now.

..at one point in time, it was nice to be a part of something and to offer something back (whether free, or charge for a service or product)...but it's quite apparant, since none of my other products create such drama...that my dealings in the arcade related industry have created more stress than I'd like...for example.  I don't have to explain myself to anyone...but find myself glued to this thread defending my views for some reason.

That's basically your choice.  It's an active user base, and the more involved you are, the more support (and customers) you are likely to garner, but nothing prevents you from running your company as you see fit without saying anything to the members here.

Whether or not  I based my business off of a chop shop or not really isn't relavent to anyone...the only relavence here is that at any moments time, I can get 10-20 sworn affidavid's stating the existance of the term mameroom (regardless of spelling) before Mame existed.

It may be relevant to MAMEdev's legal team, if it ever comes to that.

I also never threatened to sue mamedev...only defend myself if it was the other way around.

Okay, technically you threatened to countersue if they sued you.

So hopefully still no hostilities...but on issues as sensitive as this, please pay attention to the details before spouting off conjecture.

No hostilities on my end, and I figured you could correct the details if I got them wrong (you still might).

It was also brought to my attention from the residence guru, that Mame itself promotes copyright infringement and anyone taking this anywhere outside of ebay would be a complete idiot to bring attention to mame.   The complete idiot part came from an actual attorney...not me.

Yeah, I think that is probably true.  In other words, it's probably not wise for an E-bay seller to go to court saying "MAMEdev won't let me use MAME to market my product", although this could well happen and bring the whole legality of MAME (and general emulation) to a decision.

Bottom line..although we all know not the last word...

True!

If I reverse engineered Windows 3.1 and made it open source for documentation purposes...
Who has the strongest legal standpoint?

Good analogy.  I would say Microsoft, but it would be up to them to defend their IP and prosecute.

Mame, in my mind has become a joke.  I don't need it to conduct my business...I want to distance myself as far from it...because, it WILL happen...mame will get sued by someone and I don't want to be associated with it!

Probably a wise course of action.

[RandyT]

Whether or not  I based my business off of a chop shop or not really isn't relavent to anyone...the only relavence here is that at any moments time, I can get 10-20 sworn affidavid's stating the existance of the term mameroom (regardless of spelling) before Mame existed.

Obligatory IANAL

Not trying to add fuel to the fire, but while those affidavits would probably be useful (and spelling would count in this case, I'd imagine), you are talking about a civil case.  In civil cases, it's not "beyond a shadow of a doubt" as with criminal cases, rather "a conclusion based on preponderance of the evidence by a judge or jury."

If the opposition could show that MAME existed before your website/business, and they have copies of the site with their copyrighted logo on it, or that you made specific references to their software in conjunction with your product, I think it would be a tough sell.

In other words, in the case of your website name, if the judge or jury thinks it looks like an infringement and quacks like an infringement.......

But at the moment, I believe there is still a real dilemna for the Mame team.  If they don't start receiving some sort of monetary compensation in conjunction with the name MAME for a product as outlined by the trademark application, they may not be able to hold it.  Can you guess who will most likely be contesting it at assignment time, with every intention of using it in commerce?

This one's not over yet, not by a long shot.

RandyT

[VMJ Team]

Good comments on all points.

[Patent Doc]

CP yes you can get busted for possessing a crack pipe.  Usually depends on the jurisdiction, but it can happen.  For example, CA used to have (might still have it) a law that said it was illegal to be addicted to drugs.  Note the addict didn't have to be currently under the influence or have drugs in his/her possession only have evidence of addiction.

Scary but true

Patent Doc

[Tiger-Heli]

CP yes you can get busted for possessing a crack pipe.

In Florida, at least in the past you would have been busted for "possession of drug-related paraphenalia", unless you could show that the pipe had a legitimate other use - like for tobacco or oregano, or . . .

[VMJ Team]

...so my point being (and many other's), what is the legitimate (legal) use of MAME?

If someone brings up documentation, I'd have to add more food for thought...what about publishing instructions or documentation on the secret recipe of Kentucky Fried Chicken's breadding (if anyone remembers all of the that legal stuff that happend so long ago)?

[Tiger-Heli]

...so my point being (and many other's), what is the legitimate (legal) use of MAME?

Isn't it to increase Happ and Mameroom's gross profits?  (Oh wait, maybe that wasn't it) 

If someone brings up documentation, I'd have to add more food for thought...what about publishing instructions or documentation on the secret recipe of Kentucky Fried Chicken's breadding (if anyone remembers all of the that legal stuff that happend so long ago)?

I don't remember the legal stuff, but if KFC went out of business 15 years ago, nobody bought the rights to the franchise, and no one that was currently in the chicken business objected, I think you'd <maybe> be okay.

[VMJ Team]

Alot of maybe's!  I guess I'm clouding my point trying to relate it to similiar issues.

I would actually like to throw this out there:

Can anyone PROVE that MAME is legal technology that does not or will not violate any copyrights...or can anyone PROVE that MAME does violate any copyrights?

I was told that it does, but I would be interested in seeing some solid facts.

[Tiger-Heli]

Can anyone PROVE that MAME is legal technology that does not or will not violate any copyrights...or can anyone PROVE that MAME does violate any copyrights?

The only way to PROVE that something does not violate a copyright is for the copyright owner to challenge the item in court and lose.  And I don't think that prevents the copyright holder from appealing the decision or filing a charge on slightly modified grounds.

Even if MAME does NOT violate the copyright, if the copyright owners had the funds to, they could likely shut the project down just b/c the cost of proving it doesn't violate the copyright would be too great.

[AlanS17]

Who in their right mind who want to fight the MAMEdevs, anyways? Say you win... You still lose.

What incentive do they have to continue work on MAME if they get no recognition for it? Or even worse, how are they left with the right to work on it if someone takes the TM?

It's already been established that the MAMEdevs aren't making money. They've got no reason to continue work on this stuff if it becomes a hassle. Heck, if they've had to hire legal counsel that means they're probably losing money just to work on MAME.

Now I would imagine that if my business depended on MAME (and we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought people were building arcade machines primarily for console emulation), I'd do everything to keep them happy. Heck, I'd hand deliver some Shiner Bock to their doorstep if that would make them happy and helpful. I certainly wouln't make waves.

... but that's just me.

[VMJ Team]

Granted, there is a percentage of people buying our arcade cabinet kits most likely put mame in it...but I would rather go bankrupt than to be pushed around and told what I can and can't do (ebay) when I have not violated any laws.

I also never said I WANT to fight mamedev, they attacked me first through ebay.  If people can't tell already, I'm not the type of person to run and hide when I get pushed....no, quite the opposite, I'm in your face right then and there.

...no different with my business.  I refuse to walk on eggshells for anyone. 

I don't want to ruin anything for anyone!  So I have no desire to initiate a fight.  Nor do I have it in me to kiss anyone's...butt.

Who exactly do you think is creating waves here?  Keep in mind, I was minding my own business when I received an email stating my ebay account was suspended because of these yahoos.

[paigeoliver]

I never bought the "documentation" story either. It is a complete retcon. At the beginning Mame was just like every other emulator, it was for playing games, and no one (including the Nicola) was saying anything different.

Then all of a sudden it was magically a "documentation" project. Sure, like we believe that one. Sure your honor, for the first 2 years we were growing pot to smoke, but then it became a documentation project. Its very important that documentation include remappable controls, and the ability for the "documentation" to "document" the game at full speed. What isn't apparently important is any actual documentation other than how to get the rom data to run on emulated processors.

I personally throw my vote in for simply dissolving further Mame development altogether. The classic games have been emulated perfectly for years. All that ever gets added anymore is late model stuff (and the occassional bootleg 1984 piece of garbage). We are anti-piracy, and THATS exactly why we are working so hard to emulate games that came out 4 or 5 years ago and are STILL on location.

The best thing that could happen to Mame right now was if the project simply shut the BLEEP down.