MAMEDev's pull auctions without MAME

[DreamArcades]

Yesterday I went through all of my auctions and removed the term MAME(tm) My wife then went through and removed a couple that I missed. I didn

[Chris]

Can you find out from eBay if these were MAMEDev pulls or Foley pulls?

[monkeybomb]

Can you find out from eBay if these were MAMEDev pulls or Foley pulls?

Yeah this need to be made very clear.  If you had a jamma harness pulled without the word MAME, that just doesn't make any sense at all.  Can you be specific as to what happened.

[DreamArcades]

My point isn't to blame the MAMEdev's I hope they'll fix this. I just want to see if this happened to anyone else. You can see that the titles don't contain the term MAME, but the auctions aren't avalible.


Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 7:08 AM
------
Dear Mike Ware (support@dreamarcades.com),

**PLEASE READ THIS IMPORTANT EMAIL REGARDING YOUR LISTING(S)**

We would like to let you know that we removed your listing:

 
6183881427 New Black Textured T-Molding 3/4" X 25'  Arcade
6183687846 Arcade Ball-Top Joysticks Buttons, JAMMA, Pacman



because the trademark rights owner notified us, under penalty of perjury, that your listing misuses their brand name or trademark.

We have credited any associated fees to your account.  We have also notified the bidders that the listing was removed, and that they are not obligated to complete the transaction.

If you relist this or any other similar items on eBay, your account likely will be suspended.

If you believe your listing was ended in error, or have questions regarding the removal of this listing, please contact the rights owner directly at:

Nicola XXXXXXXXXX
XXX@mamedev.com

eBay is available to answer questions, but since it is the rights owner that requested the removal of your listings, we encourage you to contact them first.

For more information on the VeRO Program, and a list of rights owner About Me pages, please visit:

 http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/vero-removed-listing.html
 http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,

Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
eBay Inc

_{<edited to remove personal info>}

[Chris]

 

[DreamArcades]

I just got an e-mail from Aaron. He say's there was a hick-up in the system last night and a bunch of auctions were pulled today, from yesterday. So, even though I had updated them they were still pulled.
He's contacted eBay and Say's he'll let me know how they are going to fix this.
 

If anyone else had this happen to them send an e-mail to the contact address lsited in your e-mai lfrom eBay.

[Dire Radiant]

I must say you're taking this a lot better than I would be. Adversely effecting a reputable businessman's livelihood and reputation, without any grounds to do so, no matter how unintentionally, is not a "hiccup" it's an abuse of ebay policy and an abuse of the rights (if any) granted to them by the trademark application.

[SirPoonga]

I must say you're taking this a lot better than I would be. Adversely effecting a reputable businessman's livelihood and reputation, without any grounds to do so, no matter how unintentionally, is not a "hiccup" it's an abuse of ebay policy and an abuse of the rights (if any) granted to them by the trademark application.

No, it's a hiccup
At the time the auctions were put on the queue they were abusing the mame trademark as layouted.  But then DA changed them before those auctions went through the queue.  They got deleted.  DA complained, he is doing it the right way too by contacting the appropiate people.  It was realized as a mistake and looks like it is going to try and be resolved.

Ebay gets tons of this stuff, you don;t think they are going to put something int he wqueue to be deleted then have a real live person double check the auction just before it gets deleted?  That would cost way too much.

Timing of stuff can produce problems.  At least it is being handled.

[Dire Radiant]

Ah ok. It wasn't clear to me from the original post that these auctions had originally been posted containing MAME references. My apologies.

[DreamArcades]

I just want to make it clear we were not abusing the MAME trademark we had sent several e-mail asking how to property use it. Unfortunately we didn't get a reply for several weeks (just after a bunch of auctions were pulled).
As soon as the new rules were announced we changed our auctions within the hour.

I must say you're taking this a lot better than I would be. Adversely effecting a reputable businessman's livelihood and reputation, without any grounds to do so, no matter how unintentionally, is not a "hiccup" it's an abuse of ebay policy and an abuse of the rights (if any) granted to them by the trademark application.

No, it's a hiccup
At the time the auctions were put on the queue they were abusing the mame trademark as layouted.  But then DA changed them before those auctions went through the queue.  They got deleted.  DA complained, he is doing it the right way too by contacting the appropiate people.  It was realized as a mistake and looks like it is going to try and be resolved.

Ebay gets tons of this stuff, you don;t think they are going to put something int he wqueue to be deleted then have a real live person double check the auction just before it gets deleted?  That would cost way too much.

Timing of stuff can produce problems.  At least it is being handled.

[Zakk]

So you couldn't use the word MAME when selling T-molding (for example), which could be used for a Mame cab?  Pffft, seems a little harsh.  Thanks again Foley for making all this possible.  So it looks like he is accomplishing his goal of making Mame harder to find.

[Raven..]

And in the end it will drive the price UP.  The harder something in demand is to get, the more people will pay for it when they can find it.  I'm not advocating selling MAME systems, but making them less accessable will improve the market for the people who do.  Of course the market will be harder to reach without eBay, but there are other places to sell things.   

[Quarters]

So you couldn't use the word MAME when selling T-molding (for example), which could be used for a Mame cab? Pffft, seems a little harsh. Thanks again Foley for making all this possible. So it looks like he is accomplishing his goal of making Mame harder to find.

Yep. t-molding, act-lab guns, push buttons... all have been VeROed. 

[Tiger-Heli]

So you couldn't use the word MAME when selling T-molding (for example), which could be used for a Mame cab?  Pffft, seems a little harsh.  Thanks again Foley for making all this possible.  So it looks like he is accomplishing his goal of making Mame harder to find.

See the other related thread, you can't say "MAME T-molding" in the title.

You can (once it the ad) say T-molding "suitable for an arcade cabinet running MAME(tm)"

And in the end it will drive the price UP.  The harder something in demand is to get, the more people will pay for it when they can find it.  I'm not advocating selling MAME systems, but making them less accessable will improve the market for the people who do.  Of course the market will be harder to reach without eBay, but there are other places to sell things.

Not necessarily - Star Wars Yokes are around $120-150 on E-bay now, but if the seller mislabels it as "Atari Yoke Control", a similar item may sell for around $25-30.  What it means is that casual users will not find items and enthusiasts will need to search more creatively (search Title AND Description.)

[Setabs]

Im sorry anyone using the search term mame to find t-molding is probably going to have an ugly cabinet.

[monkeybomb]

Im sorry anyone using the search term mame to find t-molding is probably going to have an ugly cabinet.

My cabinet is quite nice and I used MAME as a search.  Since all the vendors did it, it was convinent.  They could change to EMU now or one of the other suggestions.  Once it catches on it won't be a big deal.

[NoOne=NBA=]

if the seller mislabels it as "Atari Yoke Control", a similar item may sell for around $25-30.

Even better is when it goes up as an "Atari Yolk".

[VMJ Team]

Well, for those defending what the mamedev team is doing...I didn't even want to mess around with their rediculous demands...they obviously didn't have their legal team write that stuff...

So I removed every instance of "mame" or "m.a.m.e." from my auctions.  It was there in the context of...supports xbox, mame, playstation, etc...keep in mind that I sell "empty" game cabinet kits.

Anyways, removed all instances of "mame" and replaced it with PC Emulators, and relisted my items.  Those where just pulled and my ebay account suspended.

I have sent an email to the address listed on the ebay vero form without a response.

Considering that "MAME" was not used anywhere in my items and there were still pulled...considering they were relisted after this thread was started...is it really a hick-up or did they just get caught going to far?  A hick-up would mean that there is a problem and it should have been corrected by now...since I have not received a response, I'm assuming that they know what they are doing.

So for anyone to say this is "just" or "fair"...open your eyes!

[paigeoliver]

Well, for those defending what the mamedev team is doing...I didn't even want to mess around with their rediculous demands...they obviously didn't have their legal team write that stuff...

So I removed every instance of "mame" or "m.a.m.e." from my auctions.  It was there in the context of...supports xbox, mame, playstation, etc...keep in mind that I sell "empty" game cabinet kits.

Anyways, removed all instances of "mame" and replaced it with PC Emulators, and relisted my items.  Those where just pulled and my ebay account suspended.

I have sent an email to the address listed on the ebay vero form without a response.

Considering that "MAME" was not used anywhere in my items and there were still pulled...considering they were relisted after this thread was started...is it really a hick-up or did they just get caught going to far?  A hick-up would mean that there is a problem and it should have been corrected by now...since I have not received a response, I'm assuming that they know what they are doing.

So for anyone to say this is "just" or "fair"...open your eyes!

Technically you might have a better claim to the Mame trademark than they do. After all you (via the Mameroom name) have actually been using it in commerce. 

[paigeoliver]

Also apparently xgaming.com's ebay auctions are immune to the rules, because apparently they can still spam "Mame" all over their titles.

[VMJ Team]

That's why I'm wondering if Foley is still involved...me and that (I'll behave)...exchanged a few worded emails.

[Chris]

I also work for an international lawfirm.

[ChadTower]

I don't think you guys are looking far enough into what is going on here.  They're not just pulling MAME roms and MAME itself, they're pulling anything that could be used to build a "MAME cab".  That seems, at this point, to even include some legitimate products.

Now think this through.  Why would they pull any product designed for use in a MAME cab? 

[VMJ Team]

I (and many other's) don't care what these guys have coming down the pipe.  I was just informed that by them pulling legitimate auction items on a the "mame" trademark could be argued as a violation of any trademarks owned by the seller. 

That is:
#1, their actions initiated and resulted in these items being pulled.
#2, they specifically mentioned their "mame" trademark in a correspondence that resulted in legitimate items being pulled.

[VMJ Team]

The person reviewing this wanted to know when "mame" was first used in "commerce" by the mamedevs...anyone have any insight on this?

[Chris]

The person reviewing this wanted to know when "mame" was first used in "commerce" by the mamedevs...anyone have any insight on this?

I knew this would come up.

The question is whether or not they got compensated for the Hanaho deal in actual dollars (not exchange of goods).  If so, it's that date.  If not, to the best of my knowledge it has not been used in commerce yet.

[Lilwolf]

I don't believe it would just be that.  Remember the guy who tried getting the trademark for Linux.... That lasted long and he could only trademark mud after that.  He was slammed.

Think of Foley who is now at the Tim Eckels in ranking in the community.

[Lilwolf]

BTW, that sucks that they dropped your ebay account...  Is there even a vague possibility that it was MAME then changed (the queue problem before)?  It didn't sound like it.

Hopefully they can take care of this ASAP.

[RayB]

Regardless of what we think of Foley, the fact is we do not know what "deal" was struck with the MAME devs. It could very well be that they (MAME devs) struck a bad deal. (They might have quickly bent over out of fear, or stupidity... who knows). They might not have even paid for any legal counsel for all we know! From the looks of it, MAME devs are just following Foley's very same actions. So it's possible Foley is still calling the shots.

[Shape D.]

Or maybe its the fact he's selling things under the name Mameroom.com

So did you come up with the name for your site before MAME was around? and Have you asked them for permission to use the name mameroom? Sounds to me like you are using their name for your own good, and using thier reputation to make money. Thus leaving you with no room to complain.

[quarterback]

Or maybe its the fact he's selling things under the name Mameroom.com

That's exactly what I was wondering.   Was the term "mameroom" mentioned anywhere in your auctions?

[KenToad]

Or maybe its the fact he's selling things under the name Mameroom.com

So did you come up with the name for your site before MAME was around? and Have you asked them for permission to use the name mameroom? Sounds to me like you are using their name for your own good, and using thier reputation to make money. Thus leaving you with no room to complain.

I'm pretty sure Mameroom was coined before MAME was trademarked.  Also, it's a variation on the name.  Are variations protected, i.e. treated as different names?  Remember that no software is being sold here.

Cheers,
KenToad

[VMJ Team]

I don't believe it would just be that

There is more than that.  The FACT that Mameroom Designs LLC has been registered with the US government BEFORE "mame" was used commercially could prove futile for the mamedev trademark.  They did not trademark M.A.M.E. or "Multiple arcade machine emulator" like they should have...they trademarked a desriptive name taken from "Mameroom", which is a derivative of "Gameroom".  The mamedevs shouldn't put their foot down too hard, they may be stepping on a tack.

BTW.  M.A.M.E. is still up for grabs.  "Many Animals Mate Everyday" or something like that.  Don't have the time, energy, or initiative to play dirty like that...but I'm sure someone has nothing else to do.

If anyone has any specific questions about this, I have someone qualified to answer them working on this.

[KenToad]

Personally, it looks like the Mamedevs have screwed up royally.  I hope they get back to you soon, CyberPunk.

Cheers,
KenToad

[quarterback]

If anyone has any specific questions about this, I have someone qualified to answer them working on this.

So, was the word "mameroom" anywhere in your auctions?

[Shape D.]

The FACT that Mameroom Designs LLC has been registered with the US government BEFORE "mame" was used commercially

So what you're saying is you did use the name they came up with and are now complaining because they want to restrict its use.

[KenToad]

The FACT that Mameroom Designs LLC has been registered with the US government BEFORE "mame" was used commercially

So what you're saying is you did use the name they came up with and are now complaining because they want to restrict its use.

If they didn't want anyone using variations on their name, then they should have stated that from the beginning.  Mameroom hasn't exactly been hiding in the closet.  Also, they are respected members of the community, so MAMEdev should have contacted Cyberpunk personally if this is really the issue.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Chris]

The FACT that Mameroom Designs LLC has been registered with the US government BEFORE "mame" was used commercially

So what you're saying is you did use the name they came up with and are now complaining because they want to restrict its use.

He's also saying that they registered it and used in commerce before MAME did.

[VMJ Team]

If this all goes down the way it's looking like it might.

1st. Mameroom Designs LLC is a business name, while it does not have the protection of a "Trademark", it is a registered business name that has been collecting and paying state and government taxes for the past 3 years.

2nd. Mamedev must prove in court, that Mameroom is more a derivative of "mame" than "Gameroom".

[Chris]

5th.

[VMJ Team]

Yes you are right...maim is more of descriptive word that I was looking for...but a moot point.

I am not provoking anything here...just defending my business.

[quarterback]

Hey CyberPunk, since you ignored my question the last 2 times I asked it, I'll have to conclude that you did use the word "mameroom" in your auction.

[Tiger-Heli]

I forgot to mention...if this does go down and Mameroom was to prevail....we will turn around and file claim that "mame" is violating our business name.

Not sure how well that would stand up.  Mame was around first and is the reason your company is named Mameroom, even if Mameroom was the first to use it in commerce.

[Chris]

Not sure how well that would stand up.

[VMJ Team]

No, mame or mameroom was not mentioned anywhere in my auction items.

Whether or not it would stand up or not...it's not my responsibility to prove that "Mameroom" is derived from "mame"...it's theirs.

[Shape D.]

Whether or not it would stand up or not...it's not my responsibility to prove that "Mameroom" is derived from "mame"...it's theirs.  I'm not sure what their arguement would be.

This maybe?

[VMJ Team]

Mame was around first and is the reason your company is named Mameroom

That is NOT the reason for my company name and I have already prepared to prove it.

I really didn't want this to turn into a back-and-forth...whether or not it's sound advice, I feel comfortable with the advise I am receiving...I can only be prepared for what happens.

[VMJ Team]

I am very happy to report that I just received an email from Aaron stating that he has contact ebay to correct the matter.

Out of a new found respect for both Aaron and his trademark...I will be removing all trademarked links/logos from the www.mameroom.com website.

[markrvp]

Out of a new found respect for both Aaron and his trademark...I will be removing all trademarked links/logos from the www.mameroom.com website.

Can you elaborate on that to prevent furthur speculation?

[whammoed]

Mame was around first and is the reason your company is named Mameroom

That is NOT the reason for my company name and I have already prepared to prove it.

I really didn't want this to turn into a back-and-forth...whether or not it's sound advice, I feel comfortable with the advise I am receiving...I can only be prepared for what happens.

Just curious:  When I see Mameroom I thought for sure it was a combo of MAME + Gameroom.  I'm curious as to how you came about that name?

[RayB]

You all realize that a TM will not appear in the USPTO... only (R) marks.

Also, you all realize, you can have the same trademark but be in a different market, and co-exist legally, right? ie: Apple the record label and Apple the computer company.

[VMJ Team]

Just curious:

[VMJ Team]

Can you elaborate on that to prevent furthur speculation?

I will be removing all links on the www.mameroom.com website the point to mame development sites such as

mameworld.com
mamedev.com
mame.net

I will only display links to related building and information sites such as:

arcadecontrols.com
retroblast.com

I know what is coming next...what about the links that point to a site that is doing something with Mame? 

A.  I am not a judge, nor do I want to pretend that I know exactly who's violating what...so as long as it remains unchecked or unpersued, those links will remain.  The minute I find that one of my links points to a site that has been found guilty of committing a crime, that link is gone too.

[monkeybomb]

There's been like ten posts since I started this but I'm posting anyway.

Whether or not it would stand up or not...it's not my responsibility to prove that "Mameroom" is derived from "mame"...it's theirs.  I'm not sure what their argument would be.

This maybe?

I can't see the difference in any of this stuff in the big picture.  Why are you giving cyberpunk a hard time and not Andy and Randy? From what I can see if MAMEdev could try to go after them they would.  It seems that they are mad that people have made money on emulation at all.  *wrong*

In my eyes they all have businesses based on emulation in general.  Without the free exchange of ROMS and willingness for customers to pirate the games, I don't think any of these businesses would exist.

Having said that, I don't quite get what the expectations of MAMEdev was when they released all this.  They give the documentation angle, but I've never bought it.  Why release it in the way that it is?  What is documentation without the ability to play the games?  Who are they documenting this for anyway?

My problem is how hypocritical all this is.

as a completely different theory.
Is it possible that they have been given advice to be as aggressive as possible to document an attempt to keep the project "about documentation".  It seems that they are truly at risk of huge lawsuits.  Do they really think they can win a lawsuit against Cyberpunk or do they just feel they need to file it anyway.  Or at least document that they explored the opportunity.

[VMJ Team]

I just want it to be made clear so there isn't any negative publicity brought about by my posts...

Mamedevs never brought up lawsuit...it was the lack of response that kicked me into defense mode.  Being fueled mostly by the community in this forum...I was feed the idea that my company name was the reason for the initial ebay attacks.  After reading multiple posts on how legitimate ebay items and users were being suspended...I didn't want to get caught with my pants down.

Being that I work at a lawfirm, I simply was listening the free advise (not counsel) of one of our experts.

As the owner of serveral copyrights and tradmarks myself.  I understand where mamedev may be coming from...but disaprove of the castopo tactics.  They simply had to ask me to remove or reword my auctions.  I would have been more than happy to comply.

[KenToad]

I just want it to be made clear so there isn't any negative publicity brought about by my posts...

Mamedevs never brought up lawsuit...it was the lack of response that kicked me into defense mode. Being fueled mostly by the community in this forum...I was feed the idea that my company name was the reason for the initial ebay attacks. After reading multiple posts on how legitimate ebay items and users were being suspended...I didn't want to get caught with my pants down.

Being that I work at a lawfirm, I simply was listening the free advise (not counsel) of one of our experts.

As the owner of serveral copyrights and tradmarks myself. I understand where mamedev may be coming from...but disaprove of the castopo tactics. They simply had to ask me to remove or reword my auctions. I would have been more than happy to comply.

Well, I don't know about others, but I would not be deterred from doing business with you guys.  It seems like you resolved things very well and I can understand that you were pissed after having your auctions removed and Ebay account suspended. 

I would like to personally thank you for being so open here on the forums and for raising some thought-provoking questions about how the Mamedevs aren't necessarily going to have an easy ride in court if it comes down to it.  Also, the fact that you work at a law firm and actually received legal advice lends merit to your words.  I think maybe Aaron Giles should heed the advice here also, which is that these tactics are eventually going to piss somebody off who doesn't think MAME is an unfinished program and will fight to the death to keep their company alive if backed into a corner. 

Cheers,
KenToad

[Crazy Cooter]

One thing to remember is that part of having a TM is restricting its use.  The Mamedevs are doing what they legally have to.  This is the second case I know of where they are working with a legitimate company to clear up the hiccups/mistakes/whatever.

Again I remind you guys what a monumental task it would be to go through ebay and read each auction.  Is anyone familiar with how this is automated?  I'm curious how ebay does it.  I would think that ebay would send out a notice that the posted auction violated something and give 12/24 hours to "fix" it.  Or does ebay just shoot it down?  It might be ebays "fault" more than the Mamedevs.  I dunno.  Maybe there is a sensitivity adjustment or something.

[Chris]

You all realize that a TM will not appear in the USPTO... only (R) marks.

Both Nicola's and Dave Foley's applications appear in the database I linked to.

Also, you all realize, you can have the same trademark but be in a different market, and co-exist legally, right? ie: Apple the record label and Apple the computer company.

This is the category I referred to in the other thread.  Nicola's application is for software, which is why he's not protected from someone putting MAME on a T-shirt, cabinet, or arcade button, for example.  If you look at Ford, they'll have their trademark for both cars and related merchandise like T-shirts and such.

--Chris

[monkeybomb]

  If you look at Ford, they'll have their trademark for both cars and related merchandise like T-shirts and such.

--Chris

Didn't they also claim rights to the logo too?  Would that make a difference?

[Chris]

[monkeybomb]

I don't know of your fight with interplay, can you give me a link?

[markrvp]

I think one of the things to consider here is that all the talk is surrounding EBAY.

[Crazy Cooter]

What will stop the Ebay abuse is when someone sues the MAMEdevs directly for loss of income due to having auctions pulled and/or accounts suspended that do not violate the TM terms. 

Depends on if the Mamedevs singled them out personally or if it was caught in a filter.  If it was caught in a filter, then ebay might be on the hook.  Depends on how it all works internally.

So they could go after a marquee with the MAME logo, but couldn't go after a marquee with the Pixelhugger Atomic MAME logo (although Pixelhugger could).

Actually I think they could.  Isn't that why the entry is text only?  I think it would be similar to me tring to sell my "atomic ford" vehicles with a brown rectangular emblem.  Something like an implied affiliation or some crap.

[Chris]

I don't know of your fight with interplay, can you give me a link?

There isn't a site for it, although there is a brief mention of it at http://www.mobygames.com/game/demise-rise-of-the-kutan/trivia.

[Tiger-Heli]

No hard feelings, CyberPunk, don't take any of this as hostile.

Okay, first-off, despite the previous posts by Cyberpunk - I still believe the name mameroom  was a combination of mame (the emulator) and Gameroom.  I don't think I'd want to argue in court that there was a gameroom in my business's town where people got stabbed, and it was referred to as the maimroom and I thought that would be cool to name my business after, but I got sloppy on the spelling.

Also, I think the links to mameworld and such will be removed from www.mameroom.com less to please MAMEdev, and more as a way for CP to try to distance his company from the MAME project, should things take an ugly turn.

A bit of history - CyberPunk caused a bit of trouble on this forum in years past over forum members either giving away or reselling his cabinet plans after purchasing them.  (Again, not trying to whack the hornet's nest, just trying to fill in the newbie's who may not be aware of past history).

I can't see the difference in any of this stuff in the big picture.  Why are you giving cyberpunk a hard time and not Andy and Randy?

Andy and Randy aren't threatening to sue the MAME team for trademark infringement (although their company names don't contain MAME in them, so they would have a tough time of it.)

From what I can see if MAMEdev could try to go after them they would.  It seems that they are mad that people have made money on emulation at all.  *wrong*

I know this got struck-thru, but MAMEdev is trying to eliminate people saying "MAME arcade wheel MAMEcab Emulator www.mame.net" on E-bay to sell minimally related hardware.  They have not said anything about Andy or Randy, but look at GGG's site:  There is one paragraph that says the KeyWiz is mame-ready out-of-the-box.  No other mention of MAME.  Look at the I-PAC page - There is a reference under programming which says you can set a jumper to enable the MAME codeset, and another reference under the LED header, which says that MAME flashes the LED's on coin insert in some games, to explain how they might be used.  This is basically in keeping with MAMEdev's comments about "you can say "works with MAME one time."

In my eyes they all have businesses based on emulation in general.  Without the free exchange of ROMS and willingness for customers to pirate the games, I don't think any of these businesses would exist.

Keyboard encoders have uses outside of emulation - PC games, CNC machines, kiosks, etc, but yeah, it would take a huge chunk out of their profits.

Having said that, I don't quite get what the expectations of MAMEdev was when they released all this.  They give the documentation angle, but I've never bought it.  Why release it in the way that it is?  What is documentation without the ability to play the games?  Who are they documenting this for anyway?
My problem is how hypocritical all this is.

Well, it's like this - we can say we wrote a cool program to play tons of copyrighted games, but we'll probably get shut down in a few months when the copyright owners learn about it, or we can call it a documentation project, and maybe they'll let it slide.

I posted recently that JC Whitney used to sell a "test" pipe that was an exact fit - length and mounting flanges - for the factory catalytic converter.  They didn't market this as "Dump your catylytic converter for this straight pipe and save yourself $380.00 (but you won't be in compliance with emission laws)" - They marketed it as "Install this test pipe and if your car runs better, you know the catylytic converter was blocked and can spend $400.00 on a new one."

Or the "roach clips" with feathers that were sold as rear-view mirror decorations.

It's the same thing - a product has to have some legal purpose to continue to exist.  MAME's legal purpose is documentation.

as a completely different theory.
Is it possible that they have been given advice to be as aggressive as possible to document an attempt to keep the project "about documentation".  It seems that they are truly at risk of huge lawsuits.

What they are looking at is if any of these companies goes down - lets say Namco sues DreamArcades, or Tokn 16, or Happ - if these companies have MAME links and MAME references all over their sites, there is a very real possibility that MAMEdev will be cited as a willing party and accomplice to the copyright infringement (good chance they might be anyway but it is prudent to minimize this).

Also - unlike a copyright or patent - unless a trademark owner actively takes steps to ensure the trademark is protected from unauthorized use, they run the risk of it being ruled as public domain and not trademark-protected.

Do they really think they can win a lawsuit against Cyberpunk or do they just feel they need to file it anyway.  Or at least document that they explored the opportunity.

MAMEdev is not sueing Cyberpunk. 

CP is in this difficult situation -
MAME was created and became popular.
CP started MAMEroom as, <cough>, a reference to a gameroom stabbing site.
MAME is trying to limit useage of it's name (or derivatives?) in commercial venues.

Too early to tell how this will play out for them both.

[monkeybomb]

Do they really think they can win a lawsuit against Cyberpunk or do they just feel they need to file it anyway.  Or at least document that they explored the opportunity.

MAMEdev is not sueing Cyberpunk. 

Yeah, It was stated after my post, but I left it for a reason.  Let's say that MAMEdev if fine with CP but still needs all CYA documentation.  I think that simply asking  lawyer if there is a case makes a difference in documenting their intent to enforce trademanrk.  Even if they would never do it.

I agree with your point about the "documentation" aspect, but many don't.  People get crazy and call burners scumbags and such.  They point to the documentation claim and act like we are not supposed to play at all.

[VMJ Team]

No hard feelings, CyberPunk, don't take any of this as hostile.

No hostility at all, but a few inacuracies...Yes, I created a stir about copyright infringement (rightfully so, I might add).

Yes, I want to distance myself from this entire ordeal (not if things take an ugly turn...because part of me really wants that to go down...I like my odds)

..at one point in time, it was nice to be a part of something and to offer something back (whether free, or charge for a service or product)...but it's quite apparant, since none of my other products create such drama...that my dealings in the arcade related industry have created more stress than I'd like...for example.

[Shape D.]

No hostility at all, but a few inacuracies...Yes, I created a stir about copyright infringement (rightfully so, I might add).

I'd be pissed too if something I worked on was given away by someone who didn't have the right to be giving it away.

Just to note I didn't mean a lot of those questions as why are you doing this. I honestly didn't know where your name comes from, and the obvious guess would be that it is from MAME. Good to know where it comes from now though.

Although where did you get the user name CyberPunk from?  J/K

[Tiger-Heli]

I'd be pissed too if something I worked on was given away by someone who didn't have the right to be giving it away.

I purposely left out some details to avoid "whacking the hornet's nest", but now I will add some details.

"who didn't have the right to be giving it away" - There's the rub.  CP was selling plans.  He didn't license the plans to the user (like Microsoft does), he sold them outright.  They probably were copyrighted, but that typically precludes someone else from selling duplicates of them, not giving away the originals (unless they specifically said something like "copyright for use only by the original purchaser, no redistribution allowed", but I don't think they did.  Now if I buy an OSCAR spinner from OSCAR for full price, and then decide I don't want to play spinner games, I can sell or give away the spinner on the boards and OSCAR can't complain that I am hurting his profits b/c he made the profit initially.  (Of course this rarely happens b/c if I give away the spinner I can no longer play spinner games).  In the case of cabinet plans, once someone built the cabinet, the original plans were of little use to them, so there wasn't a huge disincentive to giving them away.

No hostility at all, but a few inacuracies...Yes, I created a stir about copyright infringement (rightfully so, I might add).

I'm not really arguing your right to be upset at the time, and I think it all was resolved pretty well, but threatening to shut down BYOAC b/c of the actions of a few members was probably not the best way to resolve it, but it's all water under the bridge (to me, at least) now.

..at one point in time, it was nice to be a part of something and to offer something back (whether free, or charge for a service or product)...but it's quite apparant, since none of my other products create such drama...that my dealings in the arcade related industry have created more stress than I'd like...for example.  I don't have to explain myself to anyone...but find myself glued to this thread defending my views for some reason.

That's basically your choice.  It's an active user base, and the more involved you are, the more support (and customers) you are likely to garner, but nothing prevents you from running your company as you see fit without saying anything to the members here.

Whether or not  I based my business off of a chop shop or not really isn't relavent to anyone...the only relavence here is that at any moments time, I can get 10-20 sworn affidavid's stating the existance of the term mameroom (regardless of spelling) before Mame existed.

It may be relevant to MAMEdev's legal team, if it ever comes to that.

I also never threatened to sue mamedev...only defend myself if it was the other way around.

Okay, technically you threatened to countersue if they sued you.

So hopefully still no hostilities...but on issues as sensitive as this, please pay attention to the details before spouting off conjecture.

No hostilities on my end, and I figured you could correct the details if I got them wrong (you still might).

It was also brought to my attention from the residence guru, that Mame itself promotes copyright infringement and anyone taking this anywhere outside of ebay would be a complete idiot to bring attention to mame.   The complete idiot part came from an actual attorney...not me.

Yeah, I think that is probably true.  In other words, it's probably not wise for an E-bay seller to go to court saying "MAMEdev won't let me use MAME to market my product", although this could well happen and bring the whole legality of MAME (and general emulation) to a decision.

Bottom line..although we all know not the last word...

True!

If I reverse engineered Windows 3.1 and made it open source for documentation purposes...
Who has the strongest legal standpoint?

Good analogy.  I would say Microsoft, but it would be up to them to defend their IP and prosecute.

Mame, in my mind has become a joke.  I don't need it to conduct my business...I want to distance myself as far from it...because, it WILL happen...mame will get sued by someone and I don't want to be associated with it!

Probably a wise course of action.

[RandyT]

Whether or not  I based my business off of a chop shop or not really isn't relavent to anyone...the only relavence here is that at any moments time, I can get 10-20 sworn affidavid's stating the existance of the term mameroom (regardless of spelling) before Mame existed.

Obligatory IANAL

Not trying to add fuel to the fire, but while those affidavits would probably be useful (and spelling would count in this case, I'd imagine), you are talking about a civil case.  In civil cases, it's not "beyond a shadow of a doubt" as with criminal cases, rather "a conclusion based on preponderance of the evidence by a judge or jury."

If the opposition could show that MAME existed before your website/business, and they have copies of the site with their copyrighted logo on it, or that you made specific references to their software in conjunction with your product, I think it would be a tough sell.

In other words, in the case of your website name, if the judge or jury thinks it looks like an infringement and quacks like an infringement.......

But at the moment, I believe there is still a real dilemna for the Mame team.  If they don't start receiving some sort of monetary compensation in conjunction with the name MAME for a product as outlined by the trademark application, they may not be able to hold it.  Can you guess who will most likely be contesting it at assignment time, with every intention of using it in commerce?

This one's not over yet, not by a long shot.

RandyT

[VMJ Team]

Good comments on all points.

[Patent Doc]

CP yes you can get busted for possessing a crack pipe.  Usually depends on the jurisdiction, but it can happen.  For example, CA used to have (might still have it) a law that said it was illegal to be addicted to drugs.  Note the addict didn't have to be currently under the influence or have drugs in his/her possession only have evidence of addiction.

Scary but true

Patent Doc

[Tiger-Heli]

CP yes you can get busted for possessing a crack pipe.

In Florida, at least in the past you would have been busted for "possession of drug-related paraphenalia", unless you could show that the pipe had a legitimate other use - like for tobacco or oregano, or . . .

[VMJ Team]

...so my point being (and many other's), what is the legitimate (legal) use of MAME?

If someone brings up documentation, I'd have to add more food for thought...what about publishing instructions or documentation on the secret recipe of Kentucky Fried Chicken's breadding (if anyone remembers all of the that legal stuff that happend so long ago)?

[Tiger-Heli]

...so my point being (and many other's), what is the legitimate (legal) use of MAME?

Isn't it to increase Happ and Mameroom's gross profits?  (Oh wait, maybe that wasn't it) 

If someone brings up documentation, I'd have to add more food for thought...what about publishing instructions or documentation on the secret recipe of Kentucky Fried Chicken's breadding (if anyone remembers all of the that legal stuff that happend so long ago)?

I don't remember the legal stuff, but if KFC went out of business 15 years ago, nobody bought the rights to the franchise, and no one that was currently in the chicken business objected, I think you'd <maybe> be okay.

[VMJ Team]

Alot of maybe's!  I guess I'm clouding my point trying to relate it to similiar issues.

I would actually like to throw this out there:

Can anyone PROVE that MAME is legal technology that does not or will not violate any copyrights...or can anyone PROVE that MAME does violate any copyrights?

I was told that it does, but I would be interested in seeing some solid facts.

[Tiger-Heli]

Can anyone PROVE that MAME is legal technology that does not or will not violate any copyrights...or can anyone PROVE that MAME does violate any copyrights?

The only way to PROVE that something does not violate a copyright is for the copyright owner to challenge the item in court and lose.  And I don't think that prevents the copyright holder from appealing the decision or filing a charge on slightly modified grounds.

Even if MAME does NOT violate the copyright, if the copyright owners had the funds to, they could likely shut the project down just b/c the cost of proving it doesn't violate the copyright would be too great.

[AlanS17]

Who in their right mind who want to fight the MAMEdevs, anyways? Say you win... You still lose.

What incentive do they have to continue work on MAME if they get no recognition for it? Or even worse, how are they left with the right to work on it if someone takes the TM?

It's already been established that the MAMEdevs aren't making money. They've got no reason to continue work on this stuff if it becomes a hassle. Heck, if they've had to hire legal counsel that means they're probably losing money just to work on MAME.

Now I would imagine that if my business depended on MAME (and we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought people were building arcade machines primarily for console emulation), I'd do everything to keep them happy. Heck, I'd hand deliver some Shiner Bock to their doorstep if that would make them happy and helpful. I certainly wouln't make waves.

... but that's just me.

[VMJ Team]

Granted, there is a percentage of people buying our arcade cabinet kits most likely put mame in it...but I would rather go bankrupt than to be pushed around and told what I can and can't do (ebay) when I have not violated any laws.

I also never said I WANT to fight mamedev, they attacked me first through ebay.  If people can't tell already, I'm not the type of person to run and hide when I get pushed....no, quite the opposite, I'm in your face right then and there.

...no different with my business.  I refuse to walk on eggshells for anyone. 

I don't want to ruin anything for anyone!  So I have no desire to initiate a fight.  Nor do I have it in me to kiss anyone's...butt.

Who exactly do you think is creating waves here?  Keep in mind, I was minding my own business when I received an email stating my ebay account was suspended because of these yahoos.

[paigeoliver]

I never bought the "documentation" story either. It is a complete retcon. At the beginning Mame was just like every other emulator, it was for playing games, and no one (including the Nicola) was saying anything different.

Then all of a sudden it was magically a "documentation" project. Sure, like we believe that one. Sure your honor, for the first 2 years we were growing pot to smoke, but then it became a documentation project. Its very important that documentation include remappable controls, and the ability for the "documentation" to "document" the game at full speed. What isn't apparently important is any actual documentation other than how to get the rom data to run on emulated processors.

I personally throw my vote in for simply dissolving further Mame development altogether. The classic games have been emulated perfectly for years. All that ever gets added anymore is late model stuff (and the occassional bootleg 1984 piece of garbage). We are anti-piracy, and THATS exactly why we are working so hard to emulate games that came out 4 or 5 years ago and are STILL on location.

The best thing that could happen to Mame right now was if the project simply shut the BLEEP down.

[AlanS17]

Well I've got to admit that a random suspended account does suck.

[AlanS17]

The best thing that could happen to Mame right now was if the project simply shut the BLEEP down.

Well that's pretty easy to say when you are primarily interested in games that are already emulated, and don't care so much for the new stuff.

I'm sure there are plenty of people in that boat, but there are plenty who aren't.

[ChadTower]

What incentive do they have to continue work on MAME if they get no recognition for it?

You're making a bad assumption.

[ChadTower]

I'm sure there are plenty of people in that boat, but there are plenty who aren't.

The people who are interested in new stuff for MAME... how are they rewarding the people doing the work?  Are they paying them?  Or are they sitting around waiting for the next round of free games without lifting a finger of their own?

[VMJ Team]

No one wants to see MAME get abondoned...but you did bring up a good point about creating waves.

If mamedev keeps on the course the are heading with their views on how to enforce their trademark, they're going to piss off the wrong person eventually who doesn't care a thing about mame.

[AlanS17]

I'm sure there are plenty of people in that boat, but there are plenty who aren't.

The people who are interested in new stuff for MAME... how are they rewarding the people doing the work?

[ChadTower]

They're likely sitting around waiting for the next round of free games. I'll concede that. It's off-topic, though.

It is directly on topic in that it speaks of a potential motivation for the current aggressiveness of the MAME people.  They may have hit the end of their tolerance for those people abusing them.

[Crazy Cooter]

No one wants to see MAME get abondoned...but you did bring up a good point about creating waves.

If mamedev keeps on the course the are heading with their views on how to enforce their trademark, they're going to piss off the wrong person eventually who doesn't care a thing about mame.

The problem is the people that abuse MAME and got on Foleys nerves.  If the Mamedevs don't enforce their trademark, there are 10 more Foley's standing in the shadows.  It's either the Mamedevs enforce it (and have seemingly been working with people on how they want their trademark used), or some numbnuts just goes ape and demands money from people... oh wait... Foley already did that.

Have you contacted the MAMEdevs about getting everything straightened out on ebay, if so are they helping you?  Have they demanded any money from you?  This whole thing seems a LOT less painful than it could have been.

[AlanS17]

They're likely sitting around waiting for the next round of free games. I'll concede that. It's off-topic, though.

It is directly on topic in that it speaks of a potential motivation for the current aggressiveness of the MAME people.

[Tiger-Heli]

All that ever gets added anymore is late model stuff (and the occassional bootleg 1984 piece of garbage).

They add a lot of naked Mahjong games too, Paige.

[ChadTower]

Well they've always worked on it for the sake of being able to use it. It wasn't until other people started making money that they started getting upset.

Unless you have spoken with them and this exact point came up, it is not possible to say at what point they started becoming concerned.

[NiN^_^NiN]

wait....if they don't own the rights to mame yet then they are doing the same thing as foley was doing???

or have i misread it? 

[Lilwolf]

actually, most of the mame devs don't actually play games.  Especially since the debug mode is much slower.  But after testing, most of them don't have times to play games.

Well they've always worked on it for the sake of being able to use it. It wasn't until other people started making money that they started getting upset.

There is another point to this.  They haven't really been accepting submissions from outsiders.  Ask a few around here who have made submissions in the past.  Most don't make it... Not matter how simple.   I think it just wasn't really worth Hazes time to clean up the code for each submission...  And if you only have time to add Aarons latest and someone you've never heard of's dip switch fix.... I think you can guess where the time goes.

I don't think they're concerned with a lack of support from casual users. That should be expected, unfortunately. Most casual users don't have the knowledge or means to help, anyways.

[Tiger-Heli]

wait....if they don't own the rights to mame yet then they are doing the same thing as foley was doing???

or have i misread it? 

You misread it.  Foley did not have a legitimate claim to the trademark, but was claiming it to shut competition down.  That is a felony.

MAMEdev does have a legitimate claim to the trademark, but has not gotten it approved yet (applicant, not registrant).  That is okay.

Although IANAL, and I guess MAMEdev could be in pretty big trouble for their actions if the trademark is rejected.

[Haze]

I never bought the "documentation" story either. It is a complete retcon. At the beginning Mame was just like every other emulator, it was for playing games, and no one (including the Nicola) was saying anything different.

I personally throw my vote in for simply dissolving further Mame development altogether. The classic games have been emulated perfectly for years. All that ever gets added anymore is late model stuff (and the occassional bootleg 1984 piece of garbage)

Ok...  If it was about the games then /why/ do we keep going, if, as you rightfully state all the classic games have already been emulated?

This gamers attitude is the exact opposite of those working on MAME.

Free Porn? I'm pretty sure I can find better images searching with Google than you're going to find in any of these games anyway.

If it was only about playing the games we would have all quit a long long time ago.

We work on this for free, we've been kicked around for a long time, people seeming to think they have a god given right to have exactly what they want emulated exactly how they want it emulated and be allowed to do whatever they feel with that emulator.  I'm quite fed up with it, there is a point where a hobby isn't fun anymore, and thanks to the actions of others not even worth continuing with.  We haven't got to that point yet, but the fuss people are kicking up because of a simple request not to use the MAME name is quite astounding.

Its amazing how many people rip MAME to pieces, yet nobody seems willing to take up the task of writing a new emulator from scratch to do things the way THEY think they should be done, or even taking one of the other dead emulators and putting some new life in that.

[Dexter]

In my best Rodney King voice......

"Can't we all just get along??"

In the other thread involving this I was advocating a friendly middle ground that would be beneficial to everybody. Guess that won't be happening anytime soon 

Just because Mame already does what most of us want doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate their continued efforts and acknowledge what they have achieved in the same way, by APPRECIATING the FREE emulator and the FREE ENJOYMENT we've had from it. Anything else is a real "so long, and thanks for the fish" kind of kick in the nads.

Incidentally, Cheers mamedevs for the countless hours of fun and I genuinely hope you stick at this amazing project.

[ChadTower]

Every time Haze posts, my points become closer and closer to validation.

[pointdablame]

I tried my best to stay out of all this debate but I just can't help feeling like I should be standing on a corner with a cardboard sign that says "The end (of MAME[tm]) is near"

The fact is, I can't understand WHY people are getting so upset.  They have never been "MAME buttons" or "MAME locks" so just get over it.  If you have any clue what MAME is in the first place, then you know what to search for on eBay. Just get over it.  I wouldn't sell my TV as "compatible with FOX" 

It's a PC in a pretty box.. of course it can play MAME.. just like it can use any other PC program.  No need to advertise it as such.

/rant

[RayB]

The fact is, I can't understand WHY people are getting so upset.

[pointdablame]

I just think we should leave that up to the MAMEdevs and the people who would potentially sue them.  It's a double edged sword... they can turn their heads on the auctions... thus invalidating their trademark and making it useless.... or they can enforce it to the best of their abilities (and within eBay's technological abilities) to keep their rights... but piss people off.

It's easy to sit on the sideline and make that decisions, but try doing it in their positions.  And let's call a spade a spade here... what are 99% of these encoders and empty cabs and button sets et al being used for... MAME.  we all know it, and that's the point.  There is no NEED to put it in the auctions, but we do... and then we moan about it when we get called out.

Keyword spamming does happen all the time, I agree...but it is up to the copyright/trademark holders to do something about it.  TY isn't going after "like Beanie Baby" auctions, or their wouldn't be so many of them on eBay.  So while it might not be "legal" it is still done with no problems.  Same with most keyword spamming.

Just because some people (the devs) are using their rights, we get mad cuz we can't sell more stuff on eBay.

I doubt very highly that Joe Schmo is looking on eBay, randomly searches for a keyboard encoder, and then says "hey this MAME encoder rules, now I need to buy MAME brand buttons with a MAME cabinet and MAME coin door"  If you are looking for them on eBay, you know what they are.

[Crazy Cooter]

I doubt very highly that Joe Schmo is looking on eBay, randomly searches for a keyboard encoder, and then says "hey this MAME encoder rules, now I need to buy MAME brand buttons with a MAME cabinet and MAME coin door" If you are looking for them on eBay, you know what they are.

lol.

[MrTroy]

(ie: selling a bean bag toy and adding "like Beanie Baby" to the title so you can grab searches for Beanie Baby.

There's a big difference between "Like Beanie Baby" and "Beanie Baby". You have to be careful how you word it. It I see "Arcade Button" and "Arcade Button for Mame" and I'm building a PC for using MAME of course anyone who really doesn't know is going to say "This one with the Mame name in it is the one I want"

I doubt very highly that Joe Schmo is looking on eBay, randomly searches for a keyboard encoder, and then says "hey this MAME encoder rules, now I need to buy MAME brand buttons with a MAME cabinet and MAME coin door" If you are looking for them on eBay, you know what they are.

I disagree. I think the common idiot will fall for something like that. I know I have 

What's the point of having something trademarked if people are just going to use it for their own benifit and then argue with you on how you're wrong for doing so? MAMEDev is doing nothing wrong. If I were selling knockoffs of Super Nintendo. And Nintendo was turning a blind eye to it. Don't be an idiot and say "For use with Troy's Knock off of Nintendo's Super Nintendo". Screw that. You DON'T have to use the MAME name. It's been proven. If you can't sell your item without using the MAME name then that would imply that your item only works with MAME. Now everything I've seen here doesn't apply.

Heck there's a list of PC games that'll play better if you have keyboard encoders.

I mean come on look at this and seriously tell me there's nothing short of trying to profit off of the MAME name here.

I should be able to just go ahead and decive people and sell sneakers and say "Compatible with MAME". keyword spamming is just annoying. It sucks. It's like any form of spamming. And I darn sure wouldn't like someone saying "Sponsered by good 'ol Troy" if I don't want to.

The only thing I disagree with is the pulling of auctions without the MAME name in it. But I aint here to fight that fight.

[Paul Olson]

It I see "Arcade Button" and "Arcade Button for Mame" and I'm building a PC for using MAME of course anyone who really doesn't know is going to say "This one with the Mame name in it is the one I want"

I'm exactly the opposite on things like this.  If I see "MAME buttons", I assume (correctly most of the time) that they are low quality parts that the seller is trying to sell to people who do not know any better.  I don't think I have ever done a search for "MAME".  If I am looking for buttons, I search for "button" or "pushbutton" or "Happ".  If I want an encoder, I go to ultimarc.com or maybe groovygamegear.com.

Paul

[RayB]

There's a big difference between "Like Beanie Baby" and "Beanie Baby". You have to be careful how you word it.

I disagree, and here is why: An Ebay title ony permits so many characters, so most of the time you need to drop non-keywords such as "Like", so that you can fit in keywords that matter. And this is where taking a shotgun approach at closing auctions is just so wrong, because you have to evaluate precisely what the person is really selling or implying.

I am curious if any listings got pulled that had nothing to do with MAME, such as MAME the musical, movie, recordings... MAME Maternity clothes, etc... (Mame is not as unique a word as many people think).

[Crazy Cooter]

I am curious if any listings got pulled that had nothing to do with MAME, such as MAME the musical, movie, recordings... MAME Maternity clothes, etc... (Mame is not as unique a word as many people think).

If they were in the arcade section of Ebay, yeah, they'd probably get pulled.  Otherwise, no.

I disagree, and here is why: An Ebay title ony permits so many characters, so most of the time you need to drop non-keywords such as "Like", so that you can fit in keywords that matter. And this is where taking a shotgun approach at closing auctions is just so wrong, because you have to evaluate precisely what the person is really selling or implying.

That's exactly why they don't want MAME in the title.  Why should MAME be a keyword?  The authors of the program and owners of the trademark don't want it to be used as such.  They want "MAME" to be associated with the emulator, that's it.  Not buttons, not encoders, not cabinets, just the emulator.  That's how you are required to protect a trademark.  If you don't protect it, you'll lose it.  They're not demanding money from people or anything, they just want to be sure what is theirs stays theirs.

[Daniel270]

Wasn't there an older movie named "MAME"?

[Chris]

Wasn't there an older movie named "MAME"?

[brandon]

I'm sure there are plenty of people in that boat, but there are plenty who aren't.

The people who are interested in new stuff for MAME... how are they rewarding the people doing the work?

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm sure there are plenty of people in that boat, but there are plenty who aren't.

The people who are interested in new stuff for MAME... how are they rewarding the people doing the work?  Are they paying them?  Or are they sitting around waiting for the next round of free games without lifting a finger of their own?

Perhaps I misunderstood your statement but.. What difference does it make if people are playing old games like Pacman or newer games like Mortal Kombat?  If they arent legally entitled to do so I don't see that it matters if the game came out 5 years ago or 25 years ago.  It'd still be just as illegal either way and anyone would be a hypocrite to say otherwise.  you can bet that Namco views Pacman or the nth version Tekken in the same regard and would sue your ass quickly over either one

There's about three issues here:

First - legally - it makes no difference as an end-user if the ROMS that you don't own the rights to are from 5 year old games or 25 year old games.

Second - to the arcade game manufacturers, it makes a very big difference.  MAME had a gentlemen's agreement with Incredible Technologies, that the newer Golden Tee's would not be released until IT stopped selling them commercially.  I think other companies got the same agreement.

Finally, if you hang around the www.mame.net forums, about once a week (or more) someone will post "I just love <insert favorite last few year's game>.  When are you guys going to get off your --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- and emulate it.  You guys suck." or something to that effect, which kinda kills the dev's motivation to continue work on a project with possible legal ramifications.

[ChadTower]

Perhaps I misunderstood your statement but.. What difference does it make if people are playing old games like Pacman or newer games like Mortal Kombat?

[brandon]

Perhaps I misunderstood your statement but.. What difference does it make if people are playing old games like Pacman or newer games like Mortal Kombat?