FE that passes coin count?

[Howard_Casto]

Here is the issue, which you poor newbies aren't getting at all. 

This isn't a "legal" issue or a moral one, it's a "we don't want mame to die" issue.

Here's the thing..... 

Namco, Capcom, Midway (even though they no longer release arcade games, they make a buttload repackaging their old ones) snk and several other companies still make arcade games.   They tolerate mame now, but if we piss them off, they have the money and resources to shut it down permenantly.  Ever wonder what happened to mame.dk?  Pressure from activision, midway and nintendo forced the owners to shut it down.  No lawsuits, no legal battles, nothing.  Fact of the matter is, they weren't going to jail for hosting warez for you guys. 

Do you honestly think that if a big game company comes knocking and mame's door that the mame team won't shut everything down right then and there?  They aren't getting sued over a hobby project, just a strong threat is enough. 

The point?   Universal coin managment turns a normal fe into a pirated ultracade system.  This will piss the big companies off if they see it!!!!  They will shut mame down!!!  Is that blunt enough to get through you guys' thick skulls? 

It's not that big a loss if it's taken out, but if it's included not only does it piss off the mame devs (and they are the reason you can play the frikkin games, so suck it up and show them some respect.) but it could piss off the game companies. 

The issue isn't a legal one or even a moral one (although I can argue against the feature on both fronts)  it's a protecting mame issue.  The feature hurts mame, if you truely have any respect for this hobby and the mame project you need to take it out. 

As alan has pointed out, there aren't any legitimate reasons to have such a feature.   And "it's cool" is not a valid reason.

[rchadd]

howard please tell me exactly what mamedevs are doing to stop people like this who are already clearly using mame to make money?

http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

until you do something about them - why should anybody else care less what you start screaming and shouting about here

[)p(]

I still stand by that its a moral issue...if it will destroy mame or not is besides the point...cab fe's here are primarly mame frontends even if they do support whatever...and I really cant see any valid reason why anyone would go against the expressed wishes of the mame team! Still everyone else is free to feel different and make their own moral judgement and do whatever their moral view will allow them to. But I do feel disappointed that so many people here seem to have no problems with it!

peter

[rchadd]

my point is there is already people making money from mame - this is nothing new - but there seems to be nothing happening from mamedev point of view to stop it (that i am aware of).

if mamedevs aren't policing the licence agreement it is worthless and they can't complain when people use it to make a few quid. i assume the people already making money out of mame dont care about whether mame lives or dies - they have the exe and roms already... and they probably have different morals...

the only person trying to stop commercial use of mame is ultracade but thats because they want the little to be made on retro gaming instead.

[)p(]

my point is there is already people making money from mame - this is nothing new - but there seems to be nothing happening from mamedev point of view to stop it (that i am aware of).

So? If someone else brakes the law and gets away with it that gives me no reason to do the same. I follow the law, in this case the wishes of the mame team,  because I find that its my moral duty not because of possible sanctions.

peter

[AlanS17]

Why tempt fate. How dumb do you have to be? I swear, if you destroy my favorite hobby through your own needless ignorance despite everyone else's efforts to inform you...

[youki]

If someone else brakes the law and gets away with it that gives me no reason to do the same

I agree.  But MAME is out law.  Even if some people claims MAME is legal.  90% of mame user are Out law.

So stop with this kind of args.

The only args i can take in account is this kind  :

I really cant see any valid reason why anyone would go against the expressed wishes of the mame team!

But in that case , i would be very easy to avoid to have unwilling features.  Don't provide source.


It does not apply to coin management because in case of my coin features, i don't really need to modify the source.

In addition, comceptually i don't add this feature to mame, i add this feature to the front end.   And MAMETEAM can not say me what i can do or not on my FrontEnd. My FrontEnd is not dedicated to MAME , it is a multi emulator frontend.  And coin feature will work on other emulator too (even console ones by limiting time play in function of credits entered).

it's a "we don't want mame to die" issue.

I don't wish that too.  Even if MAME already emulate all i could dream.  But as all , MAME will die one day...  unfortunaly.  But it is surely not my Front End which will kill it.  I think Users will kill it by using illegal roms.  More and more company are selling "retro" games.  And i'm sure that they will sell lot of more games if mame didn't exists.  When they will realize that... MAME will die.. 

Recently i bought Capcom Generation cds for play station  , Namco Museum , Konami Arcade Advanced for gba  and Atari 20h anniversary collection for PS2.  Honnestly , when you have MAME you don't really need to buy these games... 

MAME is stealing market part of Retro gaming. And i don't think Game company will tolerate that for a long time...

[Crazy Cooter]

youki: MAME is legal in the US.  That's not a claim, it's a fact.  Just like mp3 players are legal.  90% of mp3 players have illegal music on them.

People use MAME at home.  You'll make it so people will use MAME in stores.  People use mp3 players at home.  Imagine if they started selling that music.

Get it?

[)p(]

I really cant see any valid reason why anyone would go against the expressed wishes of the mame team!

But in that case , i would be very easy to avoid to have unwilling features.  Don't provide source.

Again...that the mame team dont actively protect their work is no reason to go against their expressed wishes.

But you have made it clear you have no problem with that in thhis case. And I have stated already that you are of course free to do whatever you want. Lets leave it at that..and lets agree to disagree 

peter

[youki]

youki: MAME is legal in the US.  That's not a claim, it's a fact.  Just like mp3 players are legal.  90% of mp3 players have illegal music on them.

May be "Emulator" are legal as soon as there is no commercial use. I'm not a lawyer and i don't really know US laws. But as i said in another post.  I don't think that Rom Decryptions is legal.  And reverse engineering of certain PCB is legal. The concept of the Emulation is legal, but surely not some part of Mame.  Like if you buy a car and you put stolen wheels on it!  Is your car is legal or not ?....
 But anyway the problem is not here.  If i take you sample of MP3 Player. i don't see any probleme to add my coin feature.

My Front End can be considered as a "Emulator" player.  If users use Emulator legally or not , is not my problem. Like MP3 Players.

Even for MAME , it can be considered as a ROMs Player.  If illegal roms are played it is not there problems.

You can find thousand of jukebox with illegal Mp3 every where.  It is not that which will kill MP3 Player. Owner of these jukebox can have problem. But not the MP3 player used.

So , if MAME is really Legal , they will be absolutly no problem for MAME.   And my coin feature will not damage MAME at all.

The only risk , it is may be like MP3 , Authorities try to minimize illegal use , try to stop huge download, track sellers..etc..etc..  They will do may be the same things with roms...  And?.. is it so bad?

May be Arcade company will be able to make again money with their  old games. And they will have more budget to produce new ones.   Retro gaming industry will be more profitable and will have have more good products for nostalgique we are.

That's better to have a real legal environment around that instead of the anarchy there is now...

[Quarters]

Here is the issue, which you poor newbies aren't getting at all. 

This isn't a "legal" issue or a moral one, it's a "we don't want mame to die" issue.

I don't think this is any more likely to kill mame than getting rid of those annoying "type OK" screens.
 

As alan has pointed out, there aren't any legitimate reasons to have such a feature.   And "it's cool" is not a valid reason.

I and others would use this for perfectly legitimate reasons. For instance I could tell one of the kids "I've given you ten credits. When those are done It's your sisters turn."

"Because It's cool" Is a great reason. It pretty much sums up why most of us built an arcade machine.

__
Poor thick headed newbie.

[TheGatesofBill]

Personally I'd say go ahead and release it. I know I'd find this very useful for home use.

[Crazy Cooter]

youki,

The problem would be that it is YOUR software that enables it.  It would be like YOUR illegal jukebox.  Remember when Napster got sued?  Their software encouraged the abuse of the mp3 format.  Your FE would encourage the abuse of the ROM format is a similar way.  I really think you'd get in more trouble than you think.

1: The game companies could sue each person that abuses your FE, but that would take too much effort.
2: The game companies could sue MAME, but that is already declared legal.
3: The game companies could sue you.

There are International Treaties regarding copyright infringement.  YOU might be held responsible for the people that abuse the FE.  I just don't see why you would take the risk.

[youki]

I don't think you can compare my FE to Napster.

I don't really know Napster (only the name) , but i thought it was a kind of website which provided some MP3, or find way to find it ? Is it?

MAME encourage abuse of the ROM format , not the FE.  And it is so easy to proove.  Try to run a rom just with the FE.

My FE don't break any copyright ,  but MAME yes.

They declared MAME legal (i would be curious to see an official document about that...) surely because they didn't look inside or the guy who did that didn't really understand the source.

I'm sure if a company which made Game decrypted by MAME sue MAME , it will be not declared legal.


if they sue me it will be surely not for copyright Reason.

You're right on one point, my FE could encourage to use emulators in arcade cabinet , and use them commercially. I can limit that by including little limitation in my code which will be not a problem for personnal use at home but could cause probleme for a real commercial use.

[KenToad]

My Front End can be considered as a "Emulator" player.  If users use Emulator legally or not , is not my problem. Like MP3 Players.

Great analogy, Youki, it seems like many of the people speculating on this thread about the death of Mame and what might eventually kill it are not really basing their arguments on logic, but rather on a fear of the widespread commercial use of Mame (and thus anything that makes that easier).  Your FE, coin passer or no, is certainly more legal than Mame (meaning that I believe it would stand up to legal threats more readily--and, yes, Mame is legal, but is not at all safe from legal threats).  Napster died because it hit the big time.  The same thing happened to Bleem!, MameDK, Suprnova, etc.  I remember several people on this board stating that they wished the Golden Tee drivers had never been added to Mame because it made the use of the emulator even more widespread.  It's very possible that, as Mame gets more complete and newer games get added, it may get more attention in the media.  IMO, one high profile magazine article would probably get the attention of the watchdogs in the gaming industry more than anything else.  I remember hearing that National Public Radio did a story having people on the street downloading music for free from Audiogalaxy just before it was shut down.

Now that I've said all that, I'm very curious about the AtomicFE and coin passing.  I hadn't even thought about it before reading this thread.  I particularly like the idea of giving kids a certain number of credits.  I'm looking forward to the finished product.

[Veinman]

I would also add that, in my opinion, anyone that really wanted to use Mame for commercial benefit would probably write HIS OWN front end so that it could be as secure and as robust as possible.

Coin counting / passing code takes no time at all to write. Some people are acting like Youki has decoded the enigma machine or something. He hasn't.

[youki]

Some people are acting like Youki has decoded the enigma machine or something. He hasn't.

You are totally right.   

[Crazy Cooter]

I would also add that, in my opinion, anyone that really wanted to use Mame for commercial benefit would probably write HIS OWN front end so that it could be as secure and as robust as possible.

Some have but most aren't willing to spend the time or don't know it's possible.  If it was easy, then a LOT more would do it.  That's the concern.

You know the washing machines at a laundromat?  The kind with the slide in mechanism for paying?  You can defeat that and wash your clothes for free.  It's kind of a PITA (like writing your own frontend/MAME compile), so not that many people do it.  Now what if it was possible to print a piece of paper that you keep in your pocket and it not only let you wash for free, it started dispensing the money from the machine.  Do you think that more people would do it then?  Of course.  They'd abuse the hell out of it.

youki,  you should take a serious look at what happened with napster.  They had a hard time explaining why their software was useful other than illegal reasons.  MAME (and other emulators) have a legally recognized legitimate use (diagnostics etc.).  What would be a legitimate use for a FE that enables easy navigation through thousands of games while allowing MONEY to be collected and PASSED between each?  MAME is legal under the assumption a person uses it "correctly".  What would be the "correct" use for a FE that enables money to be handled like this?  I can't think of one.

I think you'd be walking down the same path as napster.  I don't know what effect it would have on MAME itself.  the application itself is legal.  Would it lead to a crackdown on people using it?  Probably.  Would they come after sites like this one?  Possibly.  It depends on how big of a "problem" your software created.  Would they come after you?  Absolutely.  You started it.

There are numerous cases where people do something stupid and somebody else takes the heat.

Is it worth the risk?  Do you trust the entire world to keep you out of trouble?  Or do you think they will point the finger at you?  Like I said before, I'd like to have that feature too, but I really really don't think it's worth the risk to you or the whole community.

[AlanS17]

Crazy Cooter is totally right, and those that think otherwise need to take a history lesson.

Just as VCR's and MP3 players are legal, so is MAME. There is nothing illegal about MAME by itself. MAME is legal. Why do people have such a hard time with that concept? (Bypassing decryption is a totally different matter, but that's for a different conversation.)

There's no basis for determining the legality of owning ROMs other than keeping them as a backup for an actual game, except on a different medium (which has also been deemed as legal). However, ROMs by themselves are theoretically legal as well.

MP3 players are legal. MP3's, as a format, are legal. Possesion of non-backup ROMs is illegal, but this isn't a conversation about possesion.

However, mass distribution of ROMs could be deemed illegal in court. Any method that simplifies the mass distribution of ROMs can also be deemed as illegal. Such an FE that passes coin count could easily encourage or simplify mass distribution of ROMs. Why is that so hard to understand...

There's not much precendent for the legality or illegality of MAME. It's better to leave it that way, though. Why draw attention? Do you want to find out the hard way that what you're doing is illegal? Or even worse, do you want to find out the hard way that your actions are impacting the rest of us? Ignorance is not a valid excuse in court...

*SMACK*...

*SMACK*SMACK*SMACK*

[KenToad]

I'm sure if a company which made Game decrypted by MAME sue MAME , it will be not declared legal.

if they sue me it will be surely not for copyright Reason.

You're right on one point, my FE could encourage to use emulators in arcade cabinet , and use them commercially. I can limit that by including little limitation in my code which will be not a problem for personnal use at home but could cause probleme for a real commercial use.

Could you elaborate on that limitation, Youki?  I think it would settle these guys down a bit.  And, remember, often projects are shut down simply because there is enough money behind the lawsuit that the developers shut the project down because they don't have the money or the time for all that legal fuss.  As far as legality, its rather moot since I'm sure the developers of this open source project don't the time or resources to fight the issue through to the end.  Anyway, I'm just trying to point out that legality is not really the issue in this kind of case.  The thing is legal as long as it is not seriously challenged by (most likely) a coalition of those who feel victimized. 

AlanS17 and Crazy Cooter:  I'm sure everyone on this thread feels like you do and hope to never see the end of Mame development or the movement to the underground of our favorite hobby.

KenToad

[Crazy Cooter]

I'd be interested in what kind of limitation is put into the FE.  I think it would have to cripple the credit passing, making it pointless to even have it.

If the MAME dev's were sued, they would have the advantage of the precedent Bleem! set.  They also have an advantage vecause any lawsuit would have to target people from many countries.  A difficult case.

If youki was sued, he has the disadvantage of the precedent napster set.  He also is a single person in a single country.  A much easier target.

Currently, the game companies don't see MAME as a big enough "problem" that it warrants the trouble of rehashing emulators in court.  A FE that passes credits and the ease of abuse that it would lead to might change that.  I think they would start with the FE author (easy target) and see how far it would go.

I think we all agree on the following:
1- It will dramatically increase the abuse of MAME.
2- It pushes the "legal line".
3- youki may get into legal trouble.
4- The MAME dev's may get into legal trouble.
5- The end user (us) may get into legal trouble.
6- It would be neat.

Is #6 worth #1, #2, #3, #4 & #5?  C'mon guys, be honest and ask yourself if it's worth it.  I think it makes it too easy to make plug-n-play "criminal cabinets".  Is that the kind of attention we want this hobby to have?

[AlanS17]

EXACTLY! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[youki]

The limitation i was thinking about is :

- let the possibility to the user to add credit by pressing Player 1 Start + Player 1 button 1 .(standard behaviour of mame).

- Don't correct the bug, i have for now, each time you press Player 1 Start , credit count are decreased event if the credit is not used.

I think these 2 limitation should avoid all commercial use , and will be not too bad for Home use.  I use my Front End at home like that, it is not a problem.  And for whom wanting limiting credit for their kids.. don't say them they can add credit by pressing 2 buttons.

What do you thing about that?

[Lilwolf]

start 1 + player button 1 is not a standard for mame... its a standard for IPacs.

but if you can make it so that ALWAYS gives a free coin I think your right.

I don't see anyone building a hacked cap to be used commercially when there is an easter egg that easy to find.

[youki]

start 1 + player button 1 is not a standard for mame... its a standard for IPacs.

I didn't know that!  Thanks!! 

but if you can make it so that ALWAYS gives a free coin I think your right.

No problem to do that!   

I think it could be a good compromise , to not hurt MAMETEAM to much , and provide this features wanted by lot of users.

[Crazy Cooter]

The limitation i was thinking about is :

- let the possibility to the user to add credit by pressing Player 1 Start + Player 1 button 1 .

I could just remap the game configs to recognize button 6 as button 1.  Then I omit button 1 from the cp... no more free credits.

[youki]

So, i will modify to be able to add a credit each time you press a START Button AND one of the Player Button simultanely.

[AlanS17]

Would that add a credit to the front-end too?

[youki]

Not, if i just modify mame , but if i code the same behaviour in the Front End,  yes.

[Crazy Cooter]

What if someone hacked a keyboard?

[Veinman]

What if someone hacked a keyboard?  Would they be able to bypass it then?

(or a joypad/stick for that matter)

If someone can do that, then that someone probably has enough sense to make his own FE. Hell, I could walk down the street to the college and probably pay a kid $50 to make one.

[Rod1968]

I have been watching this thread for some time now and figured I would throw in my 2cents. To be honest I would love to have this feature added but I can live with or without it. And also let

[Crazy Cooter]

If someone can do that, then that someone probably has enough sense to make his own FE. Hell, I could walk down the street to the college and probably pay a kid $50 to make one.

I can hack keyboards and joys but I don't know diddly about programming my own FE.  Hardware vs. software.

...there are plenty of machines with this feature on location here in the states IE: the multi Williams games, ultricade, and these two machines that actually use mame and a regular pc.
http://www.covielsa.com/Manuales/manual-tec-XINFO.PDF
http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

And there has been absolutely no negative recourse towards the mame team because of these machines.

Multi-williams plays the games they own the rights to.
Ultracade pays the copyright holders for a license to use those games (now).
The other two are not legal.

You are corrected.  The copyright warning isn't meant for a commercial setting because MAME isn't meant for a commercial setting.

[Rod1968]

Multi-Williams plays the games they own the rights to.

wrong there are several Multi-Williams

[Crazy Cooter]

lol.

Multi-williams: Legal for them, illegal for the rest.  we agree.
Ultracade: Yes, I have.
The other two:  What do you think has led to the constant harrassment by Ultracade?  That's far from "no negative feedback".  These types of cabinets are what pissed Foley off in the first place.  Here's an auction he had pulled this week: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37344.0.html
This didn't happen in this magnitude until recently.

You can't tell me you honestly believe that a 5000 in 1 machine isn't "more appealing" for a shady op than a single title.   They'd be doing it to make money.  As much as possible.  Not to please purists.

Is this/that against the MAME license?  Ask them.  It's their license.  Why can they do this/that?  Ask them.  Maybe they spoke with IT, who knows.  Ask them why it's now supported.  Ask them who wrote the original driver.  They know why things are the way they are, we don't.

LOOK:
1- It will dramatically increase the abuse of MAME.
2- It pushes the "legal line".
3- youki may get into legal trouble.
4- The MAME dev's may get into legal trouble.
5- The end user (us) may get into legal trouble.
6- It would be neat.

Is #6 worth #1, #2, #3, #4 & #5?
I think it would be cool... BUT... unless there is an absolutely foolproof way of locking the coin passing down, it will do nothing but throw gas on a fire.

Cripes, you guys have me partly defending Foley here.  Doesn't that tell you how detrimental this would be?  We should be protecting this hobby by filing complaints on ebay ourselves (I have in the past), instead we're arguing about the easiest way to setup a cabinet and capitalize on MAME in a commercial environment.  Everyone says how they hate Foley, yet they want to do the ONE thing that will make his mission of shutting things down easier.  Stupid.  Just stupid.

[Rod1968]

Multi-williams: Legal for them, illegal for the rest.

[rchadd]

Youki - please can you briefly explain how you have implemented to coin handling?

did you have to modify specific mame game drivers to accept coin count from the FE and automatically coin up when the rom is loaded?

How does the remaining coin count in the game get passed back to the FE?

I'm just interested how it works from a technical point of view.

do you keep a count of the number of games actually played within mame for statistics purpose?

[youki]

Youki - please can you briefly explain how you have implemented to coin handling?

I can not say may "secret"! 

But to summarise i simply simulate Coin Key stroke by software for the amount of credit i need to pass to the game.

did you have to modify specific mame game drivers to accept coin count from the FE and automatically coin up when the rom is loaded?

No driver drivers has been modified. It works with all games directly.

How does the remaining coin count in the game get passed back to the FE?

The FE tracks all coins and maintain his own counter  , don't need to pass back.

do you keep a count of the number of games actually played within mame for statistics purpose?

Not in the current version, it is something i was planing to do.  But i'm afraid if i integrate that feature in addition of my Coin feature , it will very hurt the "holy" MAME TEAM. 

My idea was to do very detailed statistics.. Credit used by game ,  Playing time by game , and some statistique which allow to know at what time games are more played...  etc..etc..

But if i do that in combination of coin feature,  it is clear it will encourage really commercial use.  So, i think i won't do that.

[whammoed]

But to summarise i simply simulate Coin Key stroke by software for the amount of credit i need to pass to the game.

The FE tracks all coins and maintain his own counter

[Thenasty]

some of this games whammoed mentioning are some midway games like MK series remembering credits left when you come back to the game after exit. Here are some list I kknow:

MK series
Revolution X
Robotron
Joust
Defender
Stargate
Satans Hollow
Shuffleshot

I know there;s more....