FE that passes coin count?

[rchadd]

just seen the FE for this commercial mame based cabinet

http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

The FE seems to keep count of coins inserted by the user and then passes them in to the selected game. how do they do that?

I didn't think mame supported passing a coin count into it?

Looks like the FE is a custom build. Is there other FEs that do similar?

Maybe it is a custom build of Mame also to support the coins?

Anyway this cab looks completely dodgy from a legality point of view - despite the disclaimer on the flyer!

[AlanS17]

MAME doesn't support it. At least, it didn't the last time I checked. This isn't a new idea. It's been discussed before and proven fruitless (and futile).

[Thenasty]

MAME frowns on this type of thing but Youki has one special MAME build but he mentiones it expires and the FE that he created along with it.
http://www.atomicfe.com/

[jelwell]

MAME frowns on this type of thing but Youki has one special MAME build but he mentiones it expires and the FE that he created along with it.
http://www.atomicfe.com/

Man, look at all those frames. I looked around and I don't see any source for the bundled MAME build. Can someone point me in the right place? I tried googling.

Is it in the .exe? I'm on a mac. The exe looks like a self extracting zip, but I can't unzip it.
Joseph Elwell.

[Thenasty]

you gotto read/download the PRO Version

"This version is the Prototype of the version PRO. It is the version which manages Credit insertion from the Front End.

This version is provided with a specific version of MAME.  , AtomicMAME wich is based on MAMEPLUS v0.90.

In a very near future the credit management will be doable on your own build.

Don't think to use this version in a Exploitation context, it will expire soon.   "

[jelwell]

you gotto read/download the PRO Version

Source.

I tried extracting the Pro version at home, on my windows machine. And I don't see any source for the MAME build included. This would make AtomicFE Pro illegal.

Can anyone find the source?
Joseph Elwell.

[EndTwist]

Source.

I tried extracting the Pro version at home, on my windows machine. And I don't see any source for the MAME build included. This would make AtomicFE Pro illegal.

Can anyone find the source?
Joseph Elwell.

Nope. No source.

I'm curious how he did it though.

[jelwell]

Source.

I tried extracting the Pro version at home, on my windows machine. And I don't see any source for the MAME build included. This would make AtomicFE Pro illegal.

Can anyone find the source?
Joseph Elwell.

Nope. No source.

I'm curious how he did it though.

My guess is command line option "-coin X". And then after hitting some load point just trigger X coin entries.

I can't imagine MAME keeps track of coins - it's probably done by the game itself. Which means in order to pass back the number of coins left you'd have to estimate by taking X and subtracting the number of times any of the player start buttons were pressed.
Joseph Elwell.

[youki]

Due to my little big disappointment about the MAME Community.  The Trademark story, some post i read from Haze , and the general Hypocrisy around MAME (in term of legality, Rom usage , and stuff like "MAME is not an emulator it is just a documentation of hardware"... etc..)

I decided to make my Pro version available freely and not limited very soon.  I will provide a Kit to modifify your own version of mame Too.    (But it will work only on Windows).

I'm working on another thing now, but as soons i completed my current development, i will work on the credit management again.

I will post here, when it will be online. May be end of next month.
I'm very busy now.

[Lilwolf]

You should really consider not doing it.

remember.. you think you have spent a lot of time on your frontend... 

Its NOTHING compared to the mame team.  The project is theirs... And you really should stop trying to make money on their project.  (at least in ways they don't agree on).

And what you did (however) is very easy to do for 90% of the games.  There have been mentions from the FE authors here without having to modify mame... but we don't talk about it on purpose.

We LOVE arcade companies.  We LOVE mame.  We LOVE our arcade projects in our basements.... We try not to hurt any of them... especially to make a few bucks....  And ESPECIALLY when money isn't involved (because then its just in spite (spight?  speight?  none look right)

Other then the coolness feature at home... there isn't  a legal reason to use it.... And at home, you can just throw an extra coin in... or open the coin box... or whatever.... How often is it a problem of 'loosing' a credit when you can open up the cabinet and get it back...  Or better yet... hack your coin mechs to accepts ALL coins and then you can use pennies or tokens or whatever.

Please STOP trying to hurt the MAME team and the arcade companies.

[screaming]

You should really consider not doing it.

  I second this.

-sab

[youki]

you really should stop trying to make money on their project

I will provide my solution for Free. I won't ask

[EndTwist]

MAME itself is ILLEGAL!!!

Wrong. It's not. Learn your facts before speaking.

Oh, and they weren't telling you not to release the code changes. They're telling you that you shouldn't be selling a "Pro" version of your frontend packaged with a customized copy of MAME. That is illegal, not to mention that there are better frontends out there for free and there is no reason for anyone to buy yours.

Get your facts straight, then speak.

[youki]

I won't sell the "Pro" version.  It will be totally free.

You think emulation of system you don't own rights is legal? 
You think reverse engenering is legal?
you think ROM Decryption is legal?
You think provide these information to everybody  is legal?

Ok...so MAME is legal... sorry.

It is not  because it seems to have a kind of "tolerance" that it is legal.

[jelwell]

Youki, I support this effort - as long as there is source. I'm a bit disappointed that there's no source yet.

And what you did (however) is very easy to do for 90% of the games.

[tetsujin]

You think emulation of system you don't own rights is legal? 
You think reverse engenering is legal?
you think ROM Decryption is legal?
You think provide these information to everybody is legal?

Well, yes, actually...  There's nothing illegal about emulating a computer.  There's nothing illegal about reverse engineering to find out how something works.  The DMCA makes decryption (in this sort of context) illegal - so in that case I support law-breaking, I guess.

The piracy of ROM software is another matter.  Individuals make their own choices about that.

If you think this is all so wrong, why participate in it?  Or do you feel the software piracy is OK so long as people don't lie to try to legitimize it?

[AlanS17]

Whether you make this build freely available to people or not, I think we have a bigger problem on our hands by releasing a front-end that can handle credits.

You're giving people the ability to use MAME-based arcade machines to actually make money. I guess this is technically possible already, but very impractical.

When game copyright holders crack down on MAME and the MAME community I'll know exactly who to blame.

Yes, I'm taking this issue very seriously...

[rchadd]

so why dont the copyright holders go after the bootleg multigame boards?

[Crazy Cooter]

so why dont the copyright holders go after the bootleg multigame boards?

Why do you think none are made in the US?

I'm with Alan on this one.
youki, while I'd love to have that for myself, I don't think that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.  I think it would see far more use commercially than home use.  I realize there are a few MAME cabinets being used "on location" right now, but this would only compound the problem.  In the US, emulators have already fought the court battles and it was determined that they are legal.  Using them commercially is not.  I think people would just get themselves in trouble if you were to do it.

[APFelon]

I won't sell the "Pro" version.  It will be totally free.

...and you only had to write that THREE times. Maybe a few more and people will actually bother reading it.   

I support your efforts. I'd like to have this FE in my home cabinet in order to regulate the amout of gaming my son does, PLUS it'll give me a reason to put mechs in the coin door.

Worried about commercial use? Put a big fat "NOT FOR COMMERCIAL USE"  on the FE screen. Customize it with your website address, email address and nym. Force the FE to go black after five minutes of non-use to make people think that the MAME cab on location is broken (and have the screen come back on with an home operator set joy / button combination like L R  L R 1p 2p, but a combination MUST be set)... etc etc.

There are a million things that can be done to dissuade commercial use, some very simple.

Oh, and Youki? Thanks for your efforts.

You may not ask for money for it, but perhaps you might ask for donations.

APf

[Howard_Casto]

If you'll excuse my bluntness, if you don't like, nor respect mame and the mame team then why in the blue hell are you writing a fe? 

Answer:  You are selfish, and like what mame can do for you, but don't like the rules they ask you to abide by and therefore ignore them. 

I had a hint about your disrespect when you first announced that you'd be adding coin support to your fe (which btw any one of us could have done years ago, unlike you, we just had enough respect for mame, the arcade industry, and the game companies it could potentially hurt). Now you have confirmed that you are a selfish little romz hound that doesn't care as long as it suits your goals. 

Money has absolutely nothing to do with this....  even free, your "pro"  (what does that stand for?  professional romz theif?) build is dangerous.  No one has ignored the fact that you'll be releasing it for free, it just doesn't make any difference. 


You don't like the community?  You think it's consisted of a bunch of hipocrites?  Fine it is, if you say so.  So get lost.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!


You are hereby blacklisted from my network of resources.  I can lovingly support bad projects, but I can't support projects that directly violate the spirit of mame and the community it has built. 

[youki]

You think it's consisted of a bunch of hipocrites?

I didn't say that. But may be due to my english skill it is what you read.  What i wanted to say , it is there is hypocrisis around MAME (and emulators in general). I don't say that the mame communoty is a bunch of hipocrites.

I'm sure at least 90% of mame user , use ROMS they don't own rights. And i'm sure that 100% of mame team is aware of that.... 

I'm sure that a big part of motivation of the mame team is Users. and i'm sure with 90% of users less MAME wouldn't be where it is now. and even may be a dead project.

I'm a part of the 10% of guy who only uses ROMS i own. I have the luck to own a little more than one hundred PCB and MVS in my collection , and i use mame to play this game just because it is easier to change game! (i don't have a MVS Slot 80... ) .  When i try rom i don't own, it is when i see on ebay a PCB or MVS to sell i don't know, i try the game to see if i bid or not.
Ok, that's for mame in my case, for other emulators like C64 one, i admit i don't have license of all game i play.

But i don't blame home users which play with the rom they don't own. It is not easy to find some PCB even if you really want.  But i'm against piracy to recent commercial software, warez , mp3 illegal download., Divx.Etc..Etc..

You think i'm a selfish because i want share my features?

Features which already exists in others very well known mame build...

You know my feature works at home on my cab. I don't really need to share it ,  even my Front End , i don't win something to offer it to emulators user. It just costs me. 
But there is a huge users demand for coin management on FrontEnd. And i always buid my Front End on users request. The project has been initiated because on the forum of Mame-univers in France, they are complaining about MAMEWAH , (mainly because it was too hard to configure and lot of was not english speaker) . So i started Atomic.. and now i think 90% of the Mame-univers forum users are using my Front End.  And each time somebody ask for a feature i try to implement it. (lot of are still on my todo list).

If it is the fact i modify mame which is a problem for you. I can do the same thing without modifying Mame (some feature i added will be removed , and it will work only on 2000 and XP but with all kind of mamebuild).

Or if you prefer, i won't provide a mamebuild , i just provide the "kit" to transform your own build.

I'm open to all solutions.


Talk me about The spirit of mame and the community.   And show me where my project will violate it.
And i will try to find a solution to not violate it.

 

[)p(]

The mame team has expressed on several occasions in the past that they dont want to see this feature in a frontend. I will always respect their wishes...therefore I will not support this feature...and to be honest although I do feel your free to do whatever you like i find it hard to see why you would want to go against the wishes of the mame team.

peter

[Teknique]

Personally, I play all my illegal roms on a hacked version of the official mame build (created by a forum member), navigate through all my illegal roms on a FE (created by forum member), and have great screenshots, box art, marquee art on my FE (provided by a forum member) all to make my illegal roms look better.

[youki]

while they conjure ways to legitimize and justifying their own activites

Well said!       

[rchadd]

youki - do what you like mate

mamedevs are not gods - even though many think they are

your comment about hipocrisis is true - they are indirectly encouraging rom copyright infringment whether they think so or not. the project is just lucky that rom copyright holders have not pursued this

the sourcecode is open (by their choice) and you can do what you like with it as long as not for commercial gain. the licence says you must make your changes public.

they should spend more time persuing people like this who are clearly exploiting mame....

http://www.jsclassics.net/jsclassicsmultiplay.pdf

rather than handing down repremands to developers who do not agree with their decrees

anyway if mamedevs started sulking and stopped developing it would not affect me i have everything i need in my cab now

maybe im being disrespectiful to mamedevs...who cares? some mamedevs seem like a bunch of egoist to me

personally i would like coin handing in the FE/mamebuild - I think it would be cool.

Laissez-faire!

[Popcorrin]

I think the problem here is that people are not looking at the big picture.  I'm sure we can all agree that Namco, Nintendo, Capcom, IT and all the other large manufactures are very aware of Mame and all the games it is capable of playing, but why don't you think have yet to pursue trying to shut down mame or the illegal rom resources.  It's because of the cost benefit factor. 

The way things are now the impact mame has on their profits is
minor and they more or less look the other way, but as soon as they see the possibility of losing substantial profits because of mame they will take action. 

One way to get them involved would be to start including the latest games in Mame.  The devs I think have a good job setting guidelines for including games based on how popular they still are in the arcade.
The other way would be to create a frontend that would pass credits to mame, thus making a cabinet a viable moneymaker on location, and you know if this feature is made available that this will happen.

[youki]

Yes, i see your point.

I'm not a lawer.   I think Arcade companies could only suit the guy who put illegal roms in the cab.  Not MAME . and even not the Front End.

If you use your car to kill volontary someone , you will be suited but not the car company.  (I know than in USA it is a bit special in comparaison of what we can do in France... but I don't see why the car company would be responsible).

And if MAMETEAM is so afraid about this kind of things, it is there are surely aware that what they did is illegal. If not , why don't let us code what we want.. it is not their problem as soon as it is not an "Official mame build or Front end".

The problem is more that MAME should only allow to play game of at least 10 years old and not 3.(is it?)
If they really want preserve Arcade Companies.

What MAME does is even worst... Lot of guys doesn't go anymore in Arcades , instead they stay in front of their PC to play for free at Arcade Game.  The problem is not the game they are playing, but as they don't go in the arcade, they don't see new games , they don't put money in it , and Arcade Companies don't make profit!!!  MAME (and Video game console) are killing Arcade rooms!

So having MAME in Arcade rooms... won't save Arcade , but may be few more people could come.

[screaming]

The other way would be to create a frontend that would pass credits to mame, thus making a cabinet a viable moneymaker on location, and you know if this feature is made available that this will happen.

  I agree, and I think that no matter what kind of deterrants you put in your front end, someone, somewhere is going to try and use it.  I go into a used CD store and buy a used CD that has a giant "Not for resale - for promotional use only" tag on it. But does that keep me from buying it?

  I have over 15000 ROMs for games that I have never, and will never own. Does that keep me from playing them?

  Okay, enough about me.  What about the over-abundant software piracy?  Even though it costs the world billions of dollars and have booted people out of respectable jobs, people still do it and have been doing it since almost 1000 years before France even existed.

  Okay, take this scenario:  You walked into a pizza shop, downtown (a seedy part, we'll say) and while waiting for a pizza you saw an arcade there that advertised you could play any game you wanted.  "Great!" you say, as you wander over to check it out. You see that great game of Kangaroo that you remember playing as a kid and immediatly pop in the quarter. You click on Kangaroo. A message pops up "Not for commercial use! This is against the law!". A timer ticks down.. 3...2...1... But then you see the happy CGA-graphics kangaroo jumping up and down with his vboxing gloves. "Woohoo!", you say, "Monkeys HERE I COME!".

  Now where was that message again, and what did it say?

  Why do people do it?  People are selfish and lazy. "It doesn't hurt me." "Everybody does it." Could I (or anyone else) develop their own emulator? Probably, if they wanted it bad enough.  Could people, even unscrupulous quick-heres-a-dollar people make their own front end to do what they want?  Probably most of them... but they don't. Why? They're lazy and selfish.  They're waiting for you to do it.

  If you don't put that feature in your FE, will someone else do it? Probably eventually.  But do you really want to be the next coffee stain that's turning MAME's unwashed business suit brown?

-sab

[AlanS17]

When someone out there drops this FE into a cab with illegal ROMs and puts it on location to charge money for it, the emulation community as we know it will go down the drain. Maybe it seems overdramatic, but is it hard to envision a snowball effect?

They won't just go after the person that built the cabinet. They'll take the opportunity to put emulation, in general, in a negative light. They'll go after the person that wrote the FE, the MAME devs, the ROM burners...

I hope your ROM set is up to date, because you'll be able to forget about any new ones.

[rchadd]

What MAME does is even worst... Lot of guys doesn't go anymore in Arcades , instead they stay in front of their PC to play for free at Arcade Game.

[Lilwolf]

MAME didn't kill the arcades at all.   

Amazing Consoles did.  Really.

The arcades have gone down before mame was really in existance... And they have actually been reviving since MAME came out (and could be attributed to MAME to bring back interest).

right before mame / emulation was out.  Classic games rooms in arcades didn't exist.  They where sitting in the back somewhere only if they didn't have anything else to put in it.  But recently many / most arcades have a classic wall or classic corner or classic area.

[KenToad]

MAME didn't kill the arcades at all.   

Amazing Consoles did.  Really.

The arcades have gone down before mame was really in existance... And they have actually been reviving since MAME came out (and could be attributed to MAME to bring back interest).

right before mame / emulation was out.  Classic games rooms in arcades didn't exist.  They where sitting in the back somewhere only if they didn't have anything else to put in it.  But recently many / most arcades have a classic wall or classic corner or classic area.

I agree with you, Lilwolf.  I never saw a classic game or expected to see a classic game in an arcade until just recently.  I guess some might argue that games are too young to be considered classic, or maybe that the resurrection of the 80's arcade is due to the 80's generation growing up.  I'm in the crowd that believes that Mame played a large role in the revitalization of classic gameplay.  I agree that consoles are amazing, but, consoles have a different role than arcades in that arcades were designed to suck in your money one quarter at a time, small games with fast and immediate impact, not to mention incredible difficulty.  These games were little masterpieces.  Small games are still being produced, often for shareware releases by small, independent programming groups, but the designers of today don't have the incentive of the early arcade designers: that is, quarters.  The value of gaming now seems to be measured in hours and days rather seconds or minutes.  The early videogames were released at a special time in the history of computing, when you really did need specialized (i.e. proprietary and extremely expensive)  hardware to run games like Pac-Man in the comfort of your own home.  However, players were fickle and demanded change so fast that arcade owners could hardly keep up.  Anyone who has built an arcade cabinet knows that the main limitation is space.  Consoles may have played a role in the dissolution of the arcade just by the fact that they are more house friendly.  The games play on the same basic principles now and then, i.e. action/reaction.  Mame solves the space issues in a fantastic way. 

To get back on topic, I love the idea of an FE that sends a coin count.  I would love to see how much money it would have taken me to master Ms.Pacman or any of those games.  However, I have several friends who hate inserting coins with the coin button purely on the basis of need.  They just press the coin button repeatedly until they're satisfied that they won't have to press it again.  Some games save the coins inserted even after you leave the game and some don't, not sure why.  So, Youki, more power to you.

Cheers,
KenToad

[AlanS17]

It's a nice concept, but a very bad idea.

The only reason anyone would ever need something like a credit counter would be to turn the thing into a money-maker.

Honestly... why else would you need one? What's the difference between adding credits AFTER you enter a game rather than BEFORE you enter a game? How does it hurt or help the playing experience? It doesn't.

The ONLY thing it does is create a way for people to actually make money off of MAME cabinets. It doesn't matter at all whether or not the creater charges money for it. It's about what people will do with it once they have it.

No offense to any operators if there are any here, but... most of the operators I've met have little care or respect for the games. They're in it solely for the money. You think they wouldn't jump on the idea?

There would no longer be technical limitations to making a profitable MAME machine. The only limitations left would be legal limitations. Do you think that's enough to stop people? I don't. I think that's already been proven here.

How does this not make sense to some of ya'll???

[KenToad]

AlanS17,

I'm not really sure why you think that having FE's that don't pass a coin count will stop anyone from trying to make a profit from Mame?  I mean, didn't those old machines just have a counter attached to the coin mechanism?  So, the counter was just for verification or accounting purposes, right?  You don't need software to keep track of the money on your machine if you have a coin mechanism and you probably don't really care which games get the most quarters, since the costs for having one illegal game or all illegal games is the same. 

KenToad

[AlanS17]

He's not looking for a way to simply count credits used. That would be negligible. He's looking to insert credits via the FE. This would allow you to insert 5 credits, play a game, exit, have 4 credits left, play another game... In other words, a completely shared credit system (like an Ultracade).

[KenToad]

Ah, thank you Alan.  I just reread the entire thread and see that I had originally misread the original post.  However, my opinion is the same.  Youki's FE doesn't change the essential nature of things or, IMO, make it any easier for anyone to make money on these games. 

[IG-88]

It's a nice concept, but a very bad idea.

The only reason anyone would ever need something like a credit counter would be to turn the thing into a money-maker.

Honestly... why else would you need one? What's the difference between adding credits AFTER you enter a game rather than BEFORE you enter a game? How does it hurt or help the playing experience? It doesn't.

The ONLY thing it does is create a way for people to actually make money off of MAME cabinets. It doesn't matter at all whether or not the creater charges money for it. It's about what people will do with it once they have it.

No offense to any operators if there are any here, but... most of the operators I've met have little care or respect for the games. They're in it solely for the money. You think they wouldn't jump on the idea?

There would no longer be technical limitations to making a profitable MAME machine. The only limitations left would be legal limitations. Do you think that's enough to stop people? I don't. I think that's already been proven here.

How does this not make sense to some of ya'll???

I guess I'll have to disagree with you on this one AlanS17. I have a fairly good reason

[rchadd]

And guess what, these machines are already out there. There is a place about 15 miles south of me that has one. I haven't found out who actually owns the thing so I haven't asked how they get around the "leagal" issues or if they make any money on it. And frankly, I don't see anyone playing it either. It has about 200+ games on it (i didn't count them just a guess) and an unfamiliar FE.

its probably a 200 in 1 or 300 in 1 jamma board.

arcadeshop.com have a 9 in 1 jamma board which you can download roms on to it using serial/usb to change which games it is running - not sure if it is based on mame though

http://arcadeshop.com/multi-pcb/multi-pcb.htm

[AlanS17]

I'm sure he's not writing this fe to make money. That's never been the issue.