Author Topic: Q's about flush-mounting joysticks (Read 4138 times)

Timstuff · « **on:** April 30, 2005, 06:20:47 pm »

I read somewhere that if you're going to flush-mount a joystick on your control panel, you're supposed to rout out a circle around the shaft hole, and have the joystick's disc-shaped dust cover underneath the control panel overlay or something like that. This confuses. me. CPOs are usually adhesive-backed, so wouldn't placing the joystick's dust cover underneath cause it to get stuck on the adhesive while you're moving it around? Or did I mis-read, and your'e supposed to route out the underside and place the dust cover under the fiber board? Someone please clarify.

NoOne=NBA= · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2005, 06:39:44 pm »

HERE is a link to Oscar's website, showing the absolute best way to do this.

You CAN put the dustwashers below the entire panel, but it leaves a really deep hole that way.

Most of the classic games had the CPO reverse printed on Lexan, and applied to a metal cover plate (Tron, most Williams games, etc...), or they were directly screenprinted onto the cover plate (Gorf, Zaxxon, etc...).
That let them put the dust washer between the top piece of metal, and the underlay of 3/4" plywood.
This kept it right up near the top, where it should be for the best finished look.

An alternate method to the one used by Oscar is to rout a recess around the joystick hole for a piece of metal or plex, put the dustwasher below that, and hold the cover plate in place with glue.
Once you have the plate secured, you can fill any gaps around the edge with a little wood filler, and sand them smooth.

I haven't actually gotten around to finishing any of mine like this yet, or I'd post pictures for you.
(Playable games, and additional controls, keep getting in the way).

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2005, 07:01:26 pm »

apply the CPO onto a thin sheet of plexi or aluminum

Timstuff · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2005, 07:15:57 pm »

I think I can see how they did it with the Oscar Controls example, but I want the plexiglass to be ontop of the CPO, not under it.

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2005, 07:29:12 pm »

you'd have to put another piece on top.
if you use 2 pieces of 1/16" you're still pretty thin
the Midway Blitz panel that I have has the CPO stuck to 1/16" thick aluminum and a 1/16" thick plexi on top

Timstuff · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2005, 07:56:06 pm »

Hmm, is there a cheaper and quicker alternative to cutting out two plexiglass CPO covers? Like maybe routing out the area around the dust covers a little deeper and cutting out a plexiglass "washer" with the same diameter as the routed out area to go between the dust cover and CPO?

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2005, 08:02:14 pm »

anything like that will most likely put a seam in your CPO
you could try it though

or you could try just leave the backing on the CPO and sandwich it under the plexi cover
it's worth a try

NoOne=NBA= · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2005, 11:35:22 pm »

Quote from: Timstuff on April 30, 2005, 07:56:06 pm

Like maybe routing out the area around the dust covers a little deeper and cutting out a plexiglass "washer" with the same diameter as the routed out area to go between the dust cover and CPO?

Yes.

That's what I said in my last post.
You don't want to do it at the exact same size though.
You want to go bigger than the dustwasher hole, so that you can fill the edges, and give the CPO a smooth surface to adhere to, that isn't going to fall into the hole for the dustwasher.

It's basically the same procedure that Oscar used, except that you don't have to recess the entire CP, just the areas around the joysticks.
If you're using a vinyl CPO, any imperfection in the surface below the art will show through.

Timstuff · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2005, 12:12:35 am »

So basically, when it's routed out, I want it to look like the below illustration on the left if it were a cutaway view, and the illustration on the right when the dust cover and plexiglass "washer" are in place, correct?

Also, does Mamemarquees.com print their CPOs on adhesive backed vinyl or non-adhesive material?

NoOne=NBA= · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2005, 01:19:54 am »

Quote from: Timstuff on May 01, 2005, 12:12:35 am

So basically, when it's routed out, I want it to look like the below illustration on the left if it were a cutaway view, and the illustration on the right when the dust cover and plexiglass "washer" are in place, correct?

Exactly.

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2005, 02:48:01 pm »

Quote from: Timstuff on May 01, 2005, 12:12:35 am

Also, does Mamemarquees.com print their CPOs on adhesive backed vinyl or non-adhesive material?

I don't know.. but either way you should be good to go

Timstuff · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2005, 08:53:41 pm »

Yeah. Even if there is adhesive on the material, I can always opt to just leave the backing on.

Timstuff · « **Reply #12 on:** May 02, 2005, 02:30:30 pm »

after checking Retroblast's review of MameMarquees, they do in fact print the CPOs on adhesive backed vinyl. Now I'm gonna have to make a choice though... Go with the "plexiglass washer" idea I had (i'd probably rout out a square shape and use a square shaped piece of plexi though) and place down the laminate with the adhesive, or do I leave the backing on the adhesive and not bother with the "plexiglass washer"? The cons I think to leaving the backing on is that it the CPO wouldn't really be "perminately mounted", and it's possible that in some parts the backing would affect the appearance. The cons to using the adhesive though are that once it's down, those dustcovers ain't coming out, and if for some reason I ever want to move one of my Competitions to another control panel (probably an unlikely scenario, but still possible) I'd have to leave the dustcover in there unless I want to rip up the CPO, which would be a very painful ordeal after spending $45 USD on it. If it's possible to buy replacement dust covers for joysticks, it wouldn't be a problem for me at all. But then there's the one last con, that I have to make sure that my routing job is perfect. I've never even used a router before, so I'd definately want to practice on several scrap sheets before taking it to the real deal. I'm gonna be flush mounting my trackball as well, so I don't think I'm gonna be getting out of having to do a fine job at routing no matter what I do.

So, does anyone know where replacement dust covers for Happ Competitions can be obtained? I probably won't need them, but just knowing that they're avalible would make me much happier if I decide to use the adhesive on my CPO.

hyiu · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:01:41 pm »

just thought of an idea as I'm reading this...

instead of a piece of plexi glass, and route another level... (which will take some skill...

how about you just route the dust cover layer, and on your sticky overlay, cut a circle piece of paper and let the paper stick to that section ??

then that circle portion of the overlay will not be sticky anymore, and the thickness of a piece of paper is minimal...

no extra larger layer, maybe less skill required ??

well... keep in mind I did not do any of that before, so take it at your own risk....

Timstuff · « **Reply #14 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:05:14 pm »

That's actually a good idea, and I did consider it. But I'd like to find something a little better than paper. Paper deteriorates over time, and if it gets even a little wet it won't be happy. If I can get my hands on some thin, non-adhesive vinyle then that would probably be a great solution.

Kremmit · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:13:29 pm »

Why not rout your dustwasher recess into the bottom of the wood panel, rather than the top? That way, the dust washer would sit between the joystick base and the control panel wood, and you'd be able to remove it if you want, plus no messing about with empty spaces under your overlay.

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:15:52 pm »

I like the idea of using two thin sheets
You won't have to worry about routing and cutting out washers, filling in cracks, etc.
Look at this post from another topic:

Quote from: IntruderAlert on April 28, 2005, 11:01:51 pm

OK .. here's a pic of the 4 player BLITZ 99 CP
Notice the clean look
The dust washers are beneath the CPO

The CP is constructed of 3/4" plywood

The plexi is about 1/16" and
the CPO is printed on 1/16" aluminum giving about a 1/8" total thickness
Here is the reverse side of the CPO:

With the controls and CPO removed you can see that the dust washers are about 2 3/8" diameter
and a circle has been routered for them to fit down into below the CPO
the circle is about 1/8" deep and 3 5/16" diameter

holes have been drilled and circles have also been routered for those funky tubular nuts.. (whatever the heck you call them) for the mounting of the sticks

the holes for the sticks are about 1 7/16" diameter

hope this helps

..as a side note it was interesting to see that the sticks were originally mounted with the connectors at the top instead of the left side

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,35820.msg316784.html#msg316784

hyiu · « **Reply #17 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:17:26 pm »

Quote from: Timstuff on May 02, 2005, 03:05:14 pm

That's actually a good idea, and I did consider it. But I'd like to find something a little better than paper. Paper deteriorates over time, and if it gets even a little wet it won't be happy. If I can get my hands on some thin, non-adhesive vinyle then that would probably be a great solution.

instead of paper, there are a lot of other materials...

like those drawer liners... (they are plastic like... can withstand water... well... maybe not soaked...)

or something like those plastic thing that you use to laminate your id... (you know what I mean... not the BIG 4x8 laminate...) but like when you want to laminate a photo / id...

Kremmit · « **Reply #18 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:25:29 pm »

Like this:

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:27:11 pm »

once you stick down that CPO it's all over..

by applying it to a thin panel you can remove it any time

NoOne=NBA= · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:29:17 pm »

Quote from: hyiu on May 02, 2005, 03:01:41 pm

how about you just route the dust cover layer, and on your sticky overlay, cut a circle piece of paper and let the paper stick to that section ??

The problem with doing that is that there won't be anything supporting that portion of the overlay, so it will probably leave a visible depression over the routed area.

Depth is the critical issue when routing the coverplate area.
If the hole is jagged at the edge, or something like that, you can use filler to smooth it out.
If the cover plate sits too low, or too high, you will have to shim it (or re-rout it) to bring it flush with the existing CP.

If you follow Oscar's router setting instructions, it should go really smooth however.

NoOne=NBA= · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:32:46 pm »

Kremmit,

Unless you have some gravity-defying dustwasher in mind, there's no need to rout like you showed.
Most joysticks have a recess built into the top of them that will allow the dustwasher to move below the CP.
The dustwasher in your diagram will fall into that recess, unless it is held up by something below it.

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2005, 03:45:50 pm »

mounting the dustwasher under the CP is kind of ugly if you're using wood
I hate that big 3/4" deep hole that stuff can fall into

I'd rather put them on top of the CP
but if you're willing to do the work, it looks a lot cooler just below the CPO

Timstuff · « **Reply #23 on:** May 02, 2005, 08:28:31 pm »

the concept of using two sheets of plexi sounds OK, but a little inconvinient, and more expensive. But that might be my best option. If for some reason I ever need to acsess something under the CPO like the trackball mounting plate, dust washers, or whatever, it'd be a mere matter of undoing some screws. Also, I'd have the option of countersinking some of the screws for the joysticks so I can attach those nut things to them like in that picture. The idea is really starting to grow on me now.

I'll probably want a wider T-Molding to go around the control panel box top's edge to keep the edges of all that plexiglass hidden, correct?

markrvp · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2005, 01:00:08 am »

Hi Tim:

When I was working on my first panel, I went through the anguish of all the thought processes you are going through now. There seemed to be a very strong opinion by some people that if you didn't put the dust washer under the CPO, then you should be burned at the stake. So, not wanting to be burned at the stake, I put the dustwashers under the CPO. What I found out in playing lots of games, is that my hand tends to pinch in the cutout exposed on top of the panel. Sometimes it's better to have function over form, so on the Control Panels I'm working on now, the dustwashers will go on top.

Bottom line, don't kill yourself trying to engineer something. Putting the dustwashers on top wouldn't be the end of the world if you decide to do that. It certainly is simpler.

Kremmit · « **Reply #25 on:** May 03, 2005, 11:12:23 am »

Quote from: NoOne=NBA= on May 02, 2005, 03:32:46 pm

Unless you have some gravity-defying dustwasher in mind, there's no need to rout like you showed.
Most joysticks have a recess built into the top of them that will allow the dustwasher to move below the CP.
The dustwasher in your diagram will fall into that recess, unless it is held up by something below it.

Depends on the stick he's using. There's no built-in recess on T-sticks, J-sticks, Prodigys, Semitsu, Sanwa, Nintendo... But yeah, if it's a standard Happ or Wico stick, no recess will be needed for under-panel dustwashers.

& I realize the dustwasher in my diagram appears to be floating- my MS paint skills are less than stellar.

markrvp · « **Reply #26 on:** May 03, 2005, 12:10:09 pm »

Quote

MS paint skills are less than stellar.

That's true. He even admits he "Photoshops Like A Monkey." (one of my all-time favorite quotes on this board)

Timstuff · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2005, 01:57:04 pm »

With that Blitz cabinet, what type of screws are those around the joystick?

If I could do something like that for attaching my joysticks, I wouldn't ever have to worry about someone pushing down on the sticks too hard and accidently pop the joystick out of the bottom of the CP cover. That was one of my chief concerns about flush-mounting the joysticks; that I'd have to screw it into place from the bottom, and that through years of use the screws may eventually not hold, and I end up having to replace the whole CP top.

And I think I am probably gonna go with 2 sheets of thin plexiglass, and place the CPO on the bottom one. It'll be twice as much work to cut out, but it'll ensure a professional look and that my CPO can be easily removed from the panel without damaging it if for some reason I need to.

markrvp · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2005, 02:05:52 pm »

T-Nuts.

Read this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,36091.0.html

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #29 on:** May 03, 2005, 06:18:01 pm »

I was thinking about this some more today.
You could even stick your CPO onto some thinner plastic like you commonly see "FOR SALE" signs made out of.
Although it may actually be easier to cut out the holes in the thicker plexi.
Might be worth an experiment to just buy a cheap sign and try cutting some holes in it to see...

Timstuff · « **Reply #30 on:** May 03, 2005, 10:05:59 pm »

I'd be more likely to trust Plexiglass. Ontop of being easier to drill, it'd likely be easier to apply the overlay to since it's more rigid and has more mass.

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #31 on:** May 04, 2005, 11:01:17 am »

you're right
it was just a passing thought on how to keep everything a little thinner

IntruderAlert · « **Reply #32 on:** May 04, 2005, 01:35:05 pm »

Quote from: markrvp on May 03, 2005, 01:00:08 am

Bottom line, don't kill yourself trying to engineer something. Putting the dustwashers on top wouldn't be the end of the world if you decide to do that. It certainly is simpler.

mark's right
here's a good example of how nice a CP can look with dustwashers on top
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,36334.0.html


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