GP-Wiz49 Software finally ready (link & screenshot)

[Tiger-Heli]

Please, let's be clear on the 16-way mode.  It was not "designed as a solution for 720."

IIRC, Kremmit wanted it for 720, and another member wanted it for an Intellivision controller (but I don't remember who the Intellivision guy was).

But, yes, to paraphrase RandyT, "If you are building a small classics panel and only want a single joystick and 2 buttons, plus Start, Coin, Pause and Esc, and decide to go with a KeyWiz encoder, it doesn't make it a bad product b/c it has 22 inputs and 24 shifted inputs that you won't use".

[MiKman]

Wow I just saw this!

[monkeybomb]

Yes buy it from Randy.

Day 1: I saw the sale at happs for 25 and bought 2 of them.

Day 4: I bought the encoders.

Day 5: I got my shipping invoice from happs.  Negativing my savings and then some.

Day 6: Encoders arrive (still no sticks)

Day 12:  Sticks arrive from happs, same as randy sells but happs was longer to ship and more expensive in total.

[Kremmit]

Yup, I was the guy who wanted  the 16-way, (Thanks to Randy for tossing it in for me) and I wanted it for 720.  It turns out that RAW49 mode works better for 720 anyway, at least in my testing.  I mentioned the Intellivision emulator thing in the other thread, and somebody mentioned it here more recently- I hope it works for that, but have not tested it. 

[Captain_Dingo]

Since this thread is still active, and people are still looking for the encoders...

I've got a pair up for sale in the B/S/T forum.  Here's the post.

I haven't received any response yet, so I'm probably going to drop the price listed, but seriously... make an offer.  If you want to get a pair of the original encoders on the cheap, this is the way to do it.

[dema]

Yes buy it from Randy.

Day 1: I saw the sale at happs for 25 and bought 2 of them.

Day 4: I bought the encoders.

Day 5: I got my shipping invoice from happs.

[SirPoonga]

Randy, I am redaing the readme file and some questions have come up.

Code: [Select]

The first thing the software will do is look at your system to see how many GP-Wiz49 interfaces it can find.  These will be indicated by the LED display at the lower right of the screen turning yellow for each one it enounters.  If you want to re-scan for interfaces, clicking on the LEDs will start that process anew.
After your selections have been made, you may then hit the "GO" button in the lower right corner of the screen.  The LED display at the lower right corner of the screen will then change the LED color to green as each interface is set.  When complete, the software will exit.
So the software sends the DRS Mode to all connected joystick in automatic mode too?

Code: [Select]

This will allow you to "turn off" software mode control and re-enable manual button switching by leaving all DRS Mode Icons unselected and clicking the "GO" button."
Does that mean if I turned a DRS mode on I can not use the manual button switching technique?
If so then:

Code: [Select]

GPWIZ49.exe 1
GPWIZ49.exe 2
...and so on.
Should a 0 option be added to allow manual switching.

[Thurman]

Another question.... when you call the program from commandline, is there any way to disable the graphic that pops up?

[SirPoonga]

Randy, I am redaing the readme file and some questions have come up.

Code: [Select]

The first thing the software will do is look at your system to see how many GP-Wiz49 interfaces it can find.  These will be indicated by the LED display at the lower right of the screen turning yellow for each one it enounters.  If you want to re-scan for interfaces, clicking on the LEDs will start that process anew.
After your selections have been made, you may then hit the "GO" button in the lower right corner of the screen.  The LED display at the lower right corner of the screen will then change the LED color to green as each interface is set.  When complete, the software will exit.
So the software sends the DRS Mode to all connected joystick in automatic mode too?

I started reading the entire thread, got my answer to this one, but not the other questions.

[RandyT]

So the software sends the DRS Mode to all connected joystick in automatic mode too?

Yes.

Code: [Select]

This will allow you to "turn off" software mode control and re-enable manual button switching by leaving all DRS Mode Icons unselected and clicking the "GO" button."
Does that mean if I turned a DRS mode on I can not use the manual button switching technique?

No.  It means that if a DRS mode is activated via the software the unit goes into a software selection only mode until it is de-activated by the software (or the unit is powered down).  This allows the continued use of the "shift" button without concerns that someone could unknowingly switch the joystick mode.

If so then:

Code: [Select]

GPWIZ49.exe 1
GPWIZ49.exe 2
...and so on.
Should a 0 option be added to allow manual switching.

Provided the source wasn't lost in a recent HD crash on my dev machine, I'll look at adding this shortly.  It's the first request I've had for this one as I would guess most would tend to use one or the other.  But some may find it desireable to use both methods and may not have a mouse or trackball handy.

Another question.... when you call the program from commandline, is there any way to disable the graphic that pops up?

Not currently.  I'll consider a special "silent" version, but I don't wish to add more command line options to the utility.

I have 5 lollitops and two 49-way sticks. I can't get anything to fit, and it's a QC problem at Happ to the best of my knowledge at this point after talking to Randy and much grief over the issue.

Not a "QC problem".  That would indicate negligence.  This is just a matter of whether the stick will perform as you would like, based on the current manufacturing specifications.  .005" of slop doesn't seem like much, until you see what the angle translates it to over the distance of the shaft.

The other problem with the 49-way joystick I have experienced is that the grommet does not return to center perfectly. I experienced this as letting go of the joystick in donkey kong, and mario doesn't stop, and I die. Sucks.

That's one reason I'd like control of the 7x7 map is to broaden the dead zone to exclude a 3x3 inside grid for no movement instead of a 1x1 grid.

This approach would be somewhat counter productive.  One thing you have to keep in mind is that the 49-ways were not designed specifically for what we are doing with them.  The slop in the stock sticks can be enough to actuate the first level sensor, especially when coupled with a "stiff" centering grommet.   In a normal 49-way game, this would create a very slow (or ignored) movement.  In 4-way DRS

[SirPoonga]

Code: [Select]

This will allow you to "turn off" software mode control and re-enable manual button switching by leaving all DRS Mode Icons unselected and clicking the "GO" button."
Does that mean if I turned a DRS mode on I can not use the manual button switching technique?

No.  It means that if a DRS mode is activited via the software the unit goes into a software selection only mode until it is de-activated by the software (or the unit is powered down).  This allows the continued use of the "shift" button without concerns that someone could unknowingly switch the joystick mode.
...
But some may find it desireable to use both methods and may not have a mouse or trackball handy.

That's why I ask, if you use the software in automatic mode is there a way to take it softwareware selection mode.  A user might want to override a setting from the frontend if they are debugging a problem.  But you are right, other than that you are only going to use one or the other.


Thanks for the info.  I will, probably shortly, have a nice little command line utility that takes listxml and controls.dat xml files to determine what mode gpwiz49 will go into.

Your software is supported by windows 95 and up, right?  I think .NET can be installed on 95 and up.  Since I am currently learning C# I will be making this utility out of that.  And I will probably make it open source, though since it won't really do much.  It probably isn't going to spark any interest from developers other than seeing how I used  SAX/expat for xml parsing.

FYI to developers reading this, there is something called SAX for .NET.  It's a SAX wrapper for expat.  It is fast.  The full 26meg listxml loaded in their treeview demo in like 20 seconds.  MSXML 4.0 takes about 1 minute to load listxml into a DOMDocument object.  I am also looking into what ListGen.NET uses since that loads listxml about 10 seconds.  (on my AMD64 3200)

[Ninja Supremacist]

Would 4 49 Way sticks mean 4 cables coming out of the CP?

If I decided on 4 sticks, 4 GP 49 Way PCBs and 4 ball tops, could I get the ball tops installed on your end?

The goal is a dedicated cocktail table for Mutant Storm.  49 Way pseudo-analog is more than enough directions for this game.  I'm not confident that my old CH Mach 3s will survive hacking.

[RandyT]

Would 4 49 Way sticks mean 4 cables coming out of the CP?

I would use a hub in this instance.  We offer a very reasonably priced 4 device unit at the store.

If I decided on 4 sticks, 4 GP 49 Way PCBs and 4 ball tops, could I get the ball tops installed on your end?

Absolutely.  Anyone who orders the 49-way and replacement shaft from us need only leave a note in the comment box to have us do the install before sending it out.  We even give a $2.00 per unit discount for buying the combo (it will be deducted at the time the card is charged.)

RandyT

[Timoe]

How long is the cable on that hub? 


and while I'm at it: those dust washers you sell, would they fit a Happ Super stick or a thinner-shaft ball top better?

I tried to replace some super sticks with a custom ball top and the hole in the dust washer was just too big.

[Kremmit]

Would 4 49 Way sticks mean 4 cables coming out of the CP?

If I decided on 4 sticks, 4 GP 49 Way PCBs and 4 ball tops, could I get the ball tops installed on your end?

The goal is a dedicated cocktail table for Mutant Storm.  49 Way pseudo-analog is more than enough directions for this game.  I'm not confident that my old CH Mach 3s will survive hacking.

Darn you!  I'm building a dedicated Mutant Storm!  Me first!  Me, Me, ME!

Actually, I'm building it into an upright cab, so I guess we're both first- sort of.  I'd like to talk to you about your design, but I'll PM you and not clutter an already-too long thread with off-topic stuff.

[millercentral]

Add me to the list of people who would love to see a silent (ie no UI) version of the GPWiz software!  -james

[webgeek]

Add me to the list of people who would love to see a silent (ie no UI) version of the GPWiz software!

Me as well. Thanks!

[u_rebelscum]

The other problem with the 49-way joystick I have experienced is that the grommet does not return to center perfectly. I experienced this as letting go of the joystick in donkey kong, and mario doesn't stop, and I die. Sucks.

That's one reason I'd like control of the 7x7 map is to broaden the dead zone to exclude a 3x3 inside grid for no movement instead of a 1x1 grid.

This approach would be somewhat counter productive.  One thing you have to keep in mind is that the 49-ways were not designed specifically for what we are doing with them.  The slop in the stock sticks can be enough to actuate the first level sensor, especially when coupled with a "stiff" centering grommet.   In a normal 49-way game, this would create a very slow (or ignored) movement.  In 4-way DRS

[2600]

MAMEwise couldn't you just change the ad_deadzone if you wanted to.  Same results.

Currently that's the only place I would use a 4way and off the top of my head can't think of another.

[RandyT]

This has been discussed before, but. . . .

I don't see how having the option of changing the sensitivity level is "counter productive" or "negatively change the functionality".

It's quite simple.  If the 4-way mode no longer works well after changing the dead-zone (or tantamount to that, 4-way games do not play well)  then it's not really a suitable replacement for a 4-way stick, thus defeating the purpose of the interface.

The reasons you listed above are the reasons why Ahigh is asking for adding the option of changing the dead zone.  He doesn't want to force everyone else to have to have his 3x3 dead zone.

I disagree completely.  No offense intended to Ahigh, but he is asking to overcome a mechanical deficiency by changing the way the interface operates.  This would be like trying to add horsepower to your engine because your brakes are sticking and robbing you of speed.

To get the full benefit of the features built into the interface, you must first have a properly working joystick.  The fact that it is actuating any of the sensors when it should be at rest, indicates that there is a problem.  A problem that can be remedied with a little guidance from one who understands it,  and after the sale, whose job it is to provide it!

  It's more like you're forcing everyone to have a highly sensitive 4-way joystick, even if they would prefer a lower sensitivity (even after fixing the return to center problem).  Look at the dozens of joysticks out there, and the past threads in this forum on opinions on which is the best joystick for fighter/shmups/general/4-way/other games.

Forcing???  We're getting a little silly now, aren't we?

No-one is forcing anything on anyone.  Is XArcade forcing anyone to use clicky buttons because they don't offer an alternative?  Is IL forcing anyone to use microswitch based, long throw sticks because they don't offer an optical solution or provide a mechanism for adjustable restriction levels?

It might not be that easy though.  There are many algorithms that could be used in the 7x7 to 4-way translation, and many of them aren't very open to altering the dead zone size.  I don't know which one the gwiz49 uses (nor do I need to), so I don't know if it's open to set-ablity.  [shrug] 

Not to mention there are physical reasons related to the construction of the stick that are very important to the gameplay aspect.

I know you tested it out, but even if 99% of the people would choose the default setting afterwards (ie: 1x1 deadzone) some people (me included) don't feel good blindly following what other people's reviews say without testing it out the differences themselves to see how well the different setting feel to them. 

So to draw a parallel in the "real world", are you saying that when an engineer designs a laser printer, he should provide a user-option to focus the laser because 1% don't trust that the machine was designed properly?  Or so that those "who like to experiment" can see what awful output it creates when de-focused compared to the proper factory settings, "just so they can be sure it was designed properly"?

The first time someone wrote a review about the blurry text quality of the printer, without understanding the nuances of the focus control, the engineer that provided one would be out of a job.....if the business was around long enough for him to get fired because of it.   

RandyT

[Toonces]

I'd also like to see a silent commandline version as well.


Thanks!

Erik

[RandyT]

I don't understand what you're saying.  Let me ask you some questions, because maybe I'm dead wrong about what I've been thinking.

Then please re-read what I wrote.  It's important to me that you get the full value of the products you gave your hard-earned money for. 

If you thought you needed to install a 4-way in the same panel, or worse, buy another interface to drive it (even as much as I would like the additional sales)  then I need to make sure some things are clear about the designs.

I was merely trying to (a) suggest people buy 49-ways from you instead of Happ, and to (b) suggest how you could improve your product.

Appreciated, as always.

I hope my comments didn't hit a sore spot and come across as a complaint.  Maybe you should re-read my post.

Not at all and I read it fine the first time.  But if you have to replace the functionality of the setup with other devices, then something is amiss.  If I didn't point that out to you, it would be doing you a disservice as one of my customers.

RandyT

[Thurman]

So to answer the above question specifically, what is the answer (anybody, not just Randy).

[u_rebelscum]

This has been discussed before, but. . . .

I don't see how having the option of changing the sensitivity level is "counter productive" or "negatively change the functionality".

It's quite simple.  If the 4-way mode no longer works well after changing the dead-zone (or tantamount to that, 4-way games do not play well)  then it's not really a suitable replacement for a 4-way stick, thus defeating the purpose of the interface.

I am NOT asking to make the default different from what it is now.  Option, Randy, option.  If I decided to make it "not play well", it would be my choosing.

The reasons you listed above are the reasons why Ahigh is asking for adding the option of changing the dead zone.  He doesn't want to force everyone else to have to have his 3x3 dead zone.

I disagree completely.  No offense intended to Ahigh, but he is asking to overcome a mechanical deficiency by changing the way the interface operates.  This would be like trying to add horsepower to your engine because your brakes are sticking and robbing you of speed.

   More like having a car that sometimes accelarates without stepping on the gas.  I first greased the pedal etc, but that didn't help.  I could continue playing with it, and die many times in the proccess (by those ghosts/kong thrown barrels), or I could either open up the car and physically loosening the throttle to the gas pedal, or change the firmware to subtract x amount.

It's true a perfect working stick would make things better, yes, but your interface might* (see below) be able to mask the stick's defaults.

  It's more like you're forcing everyone to have a highly sensitive 4-way joystick, even if they would prefer a lower sensitivity (even after fixing the return to center problem).  Look at the dozens of joysticks out there, and the past threads in this forum on opinions on which is the best joystick for fighter/shmups/general/4-way/other games.

Forcing???  We're getting a little silly now, aren't we?

Silly, no.  Not clear in my writing, yes.  If I buy your interface, I am buying a highly sensitive 4-way and 8-way stick (among the other modes), even if I'd perfer a less sensitive stick, or think I do.  But I can't test if I, not you, if I play better with the middle 9x9 grid ignored.  Maybe you're right, but I can't test myself to it.  I'm more for testing me and my likes, than your interface.

If I buy Xarcade, I buy clickly-clicks.  If I buy your 49-way interface, I buy a high sensitivity 4-way.  I have the option of pulling the clicky-clicks, but I don't have the option of pulling the high sensitivity from your interface.  And you are the only prebuilt option for 49-way to 4/8-way & analog.  Not exactly "force", but "buying into a certain sensitivity" is longer to say.

I know you tested it out, but even if 99% of the people would choose the default setting afterwards (ie: 1x1 deadzone) some people (me included) don't feel good blindly following what other people's reviews say without testing it out the differences themselves to see how well the different setting feel to them. 

So to draw a parallel in the "real world", are you saying that when an engineer designs a laser printer, he should provide a user-option to focus the laser because 1% don't trust that the machine was designed properly? 

No.  I'd say between 5%-25% here would want to test the different levels; I'm going on your say so that only 1% would keep a non-default sensitivity. 
And good and higher quality color laser and inkjet let you make adjustments to the head alinements, contrast, etc (but usually not focus) in case the default settings aren't the best for whatever reason (such as shipping, manufacturing differences, temperture, humidity, etc).  The defaults are "good enough" most of the time, but the adjustments are there anyway.  The ones that don't have the adjustments are usually the cheapo "buy for free" trash.

Or so that those "who like to experiment" can see what awful output it creates when de-focused compared to the proper factory settings, "just so they can be sure it was designed properly"?

The first time someone wrote a review about the blurry text quality of the printer, without understanding the nuances of the focus control, the engineer that provided one would be out of a job.....if the business was around long enough for him to get fired because of it.   

Which is what defaults are for. 
Look at the many PC motherboard manufacturers make overclockable MB, even if only 1%-5% buyers continue to overclock after playing with it.  Some MBs aren't for overclocking, sure, but most BYO MBs have some level of overclocking.


*However, from what you're saying here, especially from the similes you use, I'm guessing the gwiz49 uses an algorithm that doesn't go well with adjustable levels.  At some point I should test wiring a 49-way old school and see if I can get 4-way action with a 3x3 deadzone grid.  After I update Analog+.

[RandyT]

I am NOT asking to make the default different from what it is now.  Option, Randy, option.  If I decided to make it "not play well", it would be my choosing.

It would also reflect poorly on the product in the eyes of those who might not fully understand the interface or how it works.  Word of mouth is the most important advertising one can have for a product.  If a product gets a "bad rap" because someone sets it up incorrectly, it can be devastating, even though the problem was only perceived.

This was what my laser printer parallel was meant to illustrate and you completely missed the point.  If I wanted to talk "inkjet printers", I would have.  Inkjets have adjustments because of the loose manufacturing tolerances on the heads and how they are held in the printer.  Alignment is ALWAYS necessary.  Apples and oranges.

There are so many options on the interface now, I think it's confusing and scary enough to the novice.   Options are great, but when they begin to overwhelm, you have a problem.

  More like having a car that sometimes accelarates without stepping on the gas.

You are talking about the problem with the stick, which I said needs to be fixed.  You aren't even drawing your analogy on the same premise.

If I buy Xarcade, I buy clickly-clicks.  If I buy your 49-way interface, I buy a high sensitivity 4-way.  I have the option of pulling the clicky-clicks, but I don't have the option of pulling the high sensitivity from your interface.  And you are the only prebuilt option for 49-way to 4/8-way & analog.  Not exactly "force", but "buying into a certain sensitivity" is longer to say.

If you buy an Xarcade only to pull the controls, you should have researched your purchase better or emailed me about a panel kit .  And you can't change the throw or clickiness of a Super joystick either.  How does that fall into your equation?  Should we direct the petition to HAPP or directly to Industrias Lorenzo ?

BTW, anyone who thinks that a joystick with a fairly strong rubber centering grommet is going to be more comfortable or accurate to use if one were required to push it further off center, where the resistance grows exponentially, should probably research their purchases (and some other things) a little better as well.

And good and higher quality color laser and inkjet let you make adjustments to the head alinements, contrast, etc (but usually not focus) in case the default settings aren't the best for whatever reason (such as shipping, manufacturing differences, temperture, humidity, etc).  The defaults are "good enough" most of the time, but the adjustments are there anyway.  The ones that don't have the adjustments are usually the cheapo "buy for free" trash.

As mentioned above, this analogy doesn't cut it.  Any time you have consumer grade devices where colors must be overlaid precisely, there will always be the need for alignment.  Even on the "cheapo "buy for free" trash."  That is why I didn't mention color in my analogy.

Which is what defaults are for. 
Look at the many PC motherboard manufacturers make overclockable MB, even if only 1%-5% buyers continue to overclock after playing with it.  Some MBs aren't for overclocking, sure, but most BYO MBs have some level of overclocking.

Well, this isn't a BYO interface, it's a fully tested product that will work well within the confines of it's intended use.  I took so much heat for this device that a sane man would have walked away shaking his head and taken up farming.  But I felt comfortable making the statement and stuck by it because of the testing that had gone into it.  Strangely, some of the very same people who doubted such a thing could even work now seem to think they can do it better    (present company excluded....)

As for your analogy, don't think of it as the motherboard, rather the CPU.  Look at the lengths they go to so as to prevent modification of the CPU for the purposes of overclocking.  Part of it is a money grab, certainly, but the rest of it revolves around support issues, warranty, marketing, quality perception and so-on.  Sure, Billy can run his 1.2 at 3ghz.  But when it catches on fire, for some reason Billy never has a problem talking about how crappy the processors are.   And the people who listen to Billy don't know he's an evil overclocker and just hear the negative noise that sways their perception of the product, so the manufacturers do their best to make sure Billy can only run his 1.2 at 1.2ghz.

*However, from what you're saying here, especially from the similes you use, I'm guessing the gwiz49 uses an algorithm that doesn't go well with adjustable levels.  At some point I should test wiring a 49-way old school and see if I can get 4-way action with a 3x3 deadzone grid.  After I update Analog+.

There are only 49 possible positions for these sticks.  Giving up any of them at all is not a good thing unless absolutely necessary.  Some modes are more forgiving of a deadzone than others and this is based heavily on the types of games associated with those modes.  And that's all I have to say about that

RandyT

[Kremmit]

MAMEwise couldn't you just change the ad_deadzone if you wanted to.  Same results.

Did anybody else hear this?

[RandyT]

MAMEwise couldn't you just change the ad_deadzone if you wanted to.  Same results.

Did anybody else hear this?

Yes, sorry.  Meant to respond, but didn't make it that far.

This approach won't work with the DRS

[RandyT]

This approach won't work with the DRS

[Ninja Supremacist]

Would 4 49 Way sticks mean 4 cables coming out of the CP?

I would use a hub in this instance.  We offer a very reasonably priced 4 device unit at the store.

Would the hub need to be powered or would plugging the CP hub into the amplified hub be sufficient?

Sorry I'm not harassing you.   That seems to be the theme here.

[Tiger-Heli]

Scores between Ahigh and RandyT are meaningless here. 

I STILL haven't gotten past the first level in Donkey Kong.  So I think it's safe to assume that RandyT with an old worn out X-Arcade super clone in 8-Way mode could Whoop --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- on me with a 49-Way or Reunion stick in 4-way mode.

Does that mean we should all go buy X-Arcade clones for Donkey Kong?  What it means is we need comparisons between the same player using both sticks on different games.

[Kremmit]

Scores between Ahigh and RandyT are meaningless here. 

I STILL haven't gotten past the first level in Donkey Kong. 

And I thought I sucked.   

[2600]

MAMEwise couldn't you just change the ad_deadzone if you wanted to.  Same results.

Did anybody else hear this?

Yes, sorry.  Meant to respond, but didn't make it that far.

This approach won't work with the DRS

[RandyT]

Would 4 49 Way sticks mean 4 cables coming out of the CP?

I would use a hub in this instance.  We offer a very reasonably priced 4 device unit at the store.

Would the hub need to be powered or would plugging the CP hub into the amplified hub be sufficient?

There should be sufficient power to drive up to 4 interfaces on a non-powered hub.

RandyT

[markrvp]

I don't give out scores

[GGKoul]

Dumb question...

Will the 16 way circle formation allow you to play 720?

[Timoe]

I hear that the 16 way mode is pretty much good for nothing.

[Kremmit]

Dumb question...

Will the 16 way circle formation allow you to play 720?

That was the idea, but Raw49 mode seems to work better.  The 16 way mode may have use with Intellivision emulators, but nobody's reported on that.

720 details here.

[Thurman]

With all of the recent discussion, it got me thinking of this thread..... do we have the option to expand the deadzone yet?  It would still be a nice feature.