49-way vs 4-way vs 8-way in MAME: Differences...

[AndyWarne]

The problem I have with posting here is that any time I allude to one of Randy T's products he interprets it as an attack. I suppose I will have to live with that. It is not meant to be. I am genuinely interested in this subject and I think I am missing something.

The question is what is the definition of a 4-way stick versus an 8-way?
As I have always understood it, MAME is actually very clever at dealing with 8-way sticks in 4-way games. If you test this by using Pacman for example, using a keyboard to emulate the switches on a joystick, you will find the following moves work, as examples:
Press Right, move right.
As an 8-way stick does not have a restrictor, you might find that when you move up, you actually go Right-Up. So hold Right, and press Up. You actually move up, just as you intended.
Then you might want to move Right. Just releasing Up will cause a move Right.
Then move down, but accidentally go Right/Down. Pressing Down while holding Right causes you to move down, just as you intended.
In fact MAME is very clever in this respect. You can mis-press double "diagonals" and it will go exactly where you want. It can't handle pressing right and left at the same time, but this is not a possible move on a joystick.
The upshot of this, as far as I can see, is that 8-way sticks perform fine, with the limitation of not having a limit plate so the "feel" is not the same as a 4-way game, all of which have limit-plates on the joystick.
The question I have, therefore is this: A 49-way stick does not have a limit plate. Fair enough, maybe the "feel" is not a big issue for many people. But, if the 49-way is electronically forced to 4-way by mapping out the matrix to 4 areas, is this going to make any difference at all in MAME compared to mapping the matrix as 8 areas?
Furthermore, if any of the 49-way matrix is unmapped, ie there are dead areas, are these not going to adversely affect gameplay? Using an 8-way switch stick in 4-way games does not result in any dead zones at all.
There are people on here who play many more games than I do, and would probably be able to put me right on what I am missing.
I have a reason for asking this. It's a not-very-closely guarded secret that we are having an analog stick designed especially for us, which will be analog/4/8 way switchable. Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.
Anyone?
Andy W

[paigeoliver]

Yes, there is a benefit, some games are a lot better than others at handling diagonals. Pac-Man is pretty darn good at it. Donkey Kong and Assault are terrible at it.

Pac-Man is probably the worst example game, the sheer way it works makes it highly likely to "guess right" when it comes to diagonals. Donkey Kong just STOPS on diagonals, and it isn't the only game like that.

4-way games without forward momentum built in are the ones that have the most problem with 8-ways. If your little Bomberman or Worrior is standing still at a crossroads and you press down-right, the game has no way to tell if it should be down or right. NONE. Pac-Man can usually guess correctly because Pac is always moving forward.

[Tiger-Heli]

First off, as Paige said, Donkey Kong is a better test game than PacMan.

That said, I am using the Prodigy joysticks with MAME and they definitely play better in 4-way mode in 4-way games.  (And I don't mean feel of the restrictor plate, I mean how many times the sprite goes in an unintended direction.  And this is in PacMan, b/c I never was any good at DonkeyKong.)

But, if the 49-way is electronically forced to 4-way by mapping out the matrix to 4 areas, is this going to make any difference at all in MAME compared to mapping the matrix as 8 areas?

Obviously it does.  I have never used the 49-way sticks, but read through the 13 page introduction thread, especially the test results by 1Up and (I think) Kremmit.  Basically, they said the sticks sucked on 4-way games in raw49 or 8-way mode and played great in 4-way.    If the mappings didn't have any effect, you would expect the gameplay to be just as good in any mode, would you not?  But that's not what the tests show.

Furthermore, if any of the 49-way matrix is unmapped, ie there are dead areas, are these not going to adversely affect gameplay? Using an 8-way switch stick in 4-way games does not result in any dead zones at all.

RandyT kept his maps a closely guarded secret, but I would guess that none of the areas are unmapped, thus no dead zones.  (I haven't seen, nor do I particularly want to see, the maps).

I have a reason for asking this. It's a not-very-closely guarded secret that we are having an analog stick designed especially for us, which will be analog/4/8 way switchable. Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.

I guess this indicates why RandyT wanted to keep the maps a closely guarded secret.

[AndyWarne]

Good (and quick!) replies, thanks.
So in fact it's the ROM which is doing the sorting-out of 8-way not MAME itself nor the Allegro code in MAME.
Andy

[JoyMonkey]

Until I played Donkey Kong with a real 4-way stick (actually a Suzo500 stick with restrictor set to 4-way), I thought the game was absolutely impossible and couldn't understand how people could even clear the first level. Mario stopping at the base of a ladder when you wanted him to climb up it was absolute torture! When 4-way emulation was introduced, it made the game a little easier, but still nothing like playing with a real 4-way stick.

My first Mame cab was before the days of 4-way emulation in Mame (I believe this was added in 0.37b14) and with 8-way sticks it made Pac-Man almost as tough as Donkey Kong (ie, Pac-Man wouldn't change direction if you were hitting a diagonal).

I see how the "4-way emulation" in Mame has improved the gameplay using an 8-way stick, and admitidly I haven't tried playing any 4-way games with an 8-way stick in a long time, but I'd imagine Donkey Kong is still pretty annoying with an 8-way. The 49-way sticks "4-way emulation" mode is difficult to imagine without actually having a stick to play with, but it conjures the same picture in my mind as Mame's 4-way emulation.

I'd like to see a side by side comparison of how Donkey Kong plays;
A) Using an 8-way stick.
B) Using a 4-way stick.
C) Using a 49-way set to 4-way mode.

[Tiger-Heli]

The text below is just my understanding of the problem.

BTW, also see these threads from 2003 (relates exactly to what you are asking)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,7288.0.html
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,5854.0.html

Good (and quick!) replies, thanks.
So in fact it's the ROM which is doing the sorting-out of 8-way not MAME itself nor the Allegro code in MAME.
Andy

Well, yes and no - I think it's gone into Web-History now, but Derrick Renaud (discrete sound MAMEdev now) did some work on using relays to make an electronically switched 8-way to 4-way joystick.  This was eventually converted to software and added to MAME (probably somewhere in the mid-36 or mid 35 Beta series) as what came to be known as "Sticky Mode".

I don't remember which was Sticky and which was non-Sticky, but the basic idea was:

METHOD 1:
If you are moving left and then go to a diagonal, it still reads that you are going left.  When you break the diagonal and hit "up", it then changes to up until the next clean direction change.

METHOD 2:
If you are moving left and then go to a diagonal, it immediately switches to the new direction.

The problem is that in either method, it sometimes guesses wrong about what you are intending, and sends the wrong signal.  PacMan is more tolerant of wrong guesses than DonkeyKong, so the ROM does have some effect, but it's definitely not the only consideration.

You could probably add some "fuzzy logic" in MAME and get it more accurate - monitor the amount of time the diagonal was pressed to determine whether a direction change was intentional or not - but this goes against the spirit of the project, so probably won't happen.

The big advantage with the 49-ways (or an analog stick) is the greater resolution allows you to make better guesses, i.e. an 8-way just knows Up and Right are pressed, and has to decide what to do.  A 49-way can say Up and a little Right is pressed, so probably Up is what is intended.

But RandyT also posted that the mappings that work are not what you would analytically expect them to be.

[paigeoliver]

Also, I am not sure how useful sticky mode can be when Mame doesn't even know the correct joysticks for half the games. Last time I checked Mame listed dozens of 4-way games as 8-way games and several 8-way games as 4-way.

[Tiger-Heli]

Also, I am not sure how useful sticky mode can be when Mame doesn't even know the correct joysticks for half the games. Last time I checked Mame listed dozens of 4-way games as 8-way games and several 8-way games as 4-way.

Yes, there is that as well.

[RandyT]

... I think I am missing something.

Do I need to add electronic division of the analog circle into 4 or 8 sectors? I don't think I do, but will do so if there is going to be a real benefit.

Andy W

This is pretty ironic, considering this post.

I guess it's only ok if you are the one knocking off someone else's ideas.  This post is tantamount to you "asking permission" from the community to do so.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

For goodness sake...the thought of copying anything did not even occur to me. What do you mean by copying exactly? The concept of mapping a 49-way stick is an old one, documented in several places including here:
http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
I am not intending copying anything at all. When you brought out the Keywiz did I accuse you of copying the I-PAC? Of course not because you didn't. You designed an alternative product which performed a similar task to an existing one. Nothing wrong with that.

Mapping an analog stick into sectors (as opposed to a 49-way stick) is such an obvious thing to do I am sure plenty of people have thought about this before and I am sure there are sites which document this, although I have not searched. Nothing new here at all and certainly nothing copied from yourself.

Andy

[RandyT]

Mapping an analog stick into sectors (as opposed to a 49-way stick) is such an obvious thing to do I am sure plenty of people have thought about this before and I am sure there are sites which document this, although I have not searched. Nothing new here at all and certainly nothing copied from yourself.
Andy

So obvious, yet you attacked the GP-Wiz49 as not having any value in doing these calculations in the hardware, but now you are intending to do the same thing in your own product.

Please research and provide links to the sites you mention above.

RandyT

[SirPeale]

Sweet!  Another Andy vs. Randy thread.

* Peale goes and gets some popcorn, kicks back, and puts his feet up.

[RandyT]

Sweet!  Another Andy vs. Randy thread.

* Peale goes and gets some popcorn, kicks back, and puts his feet up.

If you like this one, you'll LOVE this one.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

I am not intending copying anything at all. When you brought out the Keywiz did I accuse you of copying the I-PAC? Of course not because you didn't. You designed an alternative product which performed a similar task to an existing one. Nothing wrong with that.

Okay, I will likely lose some friends with this post, but it needs to be said anyway.  I think to some extent everyone copies ideas that they like from others, and that's not a bad thing.  What bothers me is a pattern that I have seen lately where Andy tends to discount a competitor's product, and then makes a similar offering available when it becomes apparent that the competitor's product is successful.

Examples (and apologies if I get the chronology wrong, it is important, just sometimes memory fails me) -

While Andy didn't accuse RandyT of copying the I-PAC, a lot of the members of the board did (a testament to the good reputation Andy has built on the board).  The KeyWiz has many unique features (four more inputs, unique shift function), so I don't feel it was a copy.

Andy introduces the Mini-Pac, a combined trackball/keyboard encoder.  The design uses an IDE pin header.  This was previously used on the MK64 and Hagstrom encoders, but again, basically an original design.

Randy introduces the ECO2, which now has the option of a pin header.  (I mention this b/c some will say the pin header was a copy of the mini-pac, but it has been used before).

After trying to discount the KeyWiz as not being worth what you give up for only 4 more inputs, and saying how EEPROM was important to a keyboard encoder, Andy introduces the I-PAC VE, a 36-input encoder that is priced competively with the KeyWiz Max.  (Not that revolutionary, given the earlier comments on the KeyWiz, but not a direct copy either, AFAICT).

Randy introduces the GP-Wiz. Andy posts in the intro thread that Gamepads and analog controls don't work well in MAME.

A few weeks later, Andy introduces the A-PAC, basically a Gamepad encoder with support for analog inputs, sortof a combination of the Daveb's AKI and the GP-Wiz.  Again, probably not a direct copy, but a little suspect given the previous comments about gamepads in MAME.

As Randy mentions above (added while I was typing this), Randy introduces the GP-Wiz49.  Andy mentions that the encoder probably works well for 49-way games but should probably be left at that as it probably won't do well in MAME for 8-way and 4-way and shouldn't be marketed that way.

Then in this thread, Andy asks about this functionality, as he might incorporate it on his analog stick that is being introduced.

Also - Andy posts that he does not like the Suzo 500 stick.  Randy introduces it as the Omni-Stick.  Andy says that he still doesn't like it but since so many others seem to, he is going to offer it as the Euro-Stick.

Again, I see a pattern of Andy saying something is a bad idea until he introduces a version of it.  Hopefully, Andy has just been having a lot of changes of opinion.  At least I would like to believe that.  Someone correct me if I got anything horribly wrong.

What do you mean by copying exactly? The concept of mapping a 49-way stick is an old one, documented in several places including here:
http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
Mapping an analog stick into sectors (as opposed to a 49-way stick) is such an obvious thing to do I am sure plenty of people have thought about this before and I am sure there are sites which document this, although I have not searched. Nothing new here at all and certainly nothing copied from yourself.
Andy

Yes, Urebel mentioned the general concept long before Randy did, but Randy said that Urebel's mappings did not work well and were quickly abandoned.

And yes, someone else mentioned in the GP-Wiz49 thread about possibly doing the same thing with a true analog stick.

Personally, I don't see that as copying, but I would advise you to document how you determine the mappings, particularly if they happen to end up matching those used by the GP-Wiz49.

Sweet!  Another Andy vs. Randy thread.

Don't forget me!  BTW, sorry if this gets the thread locked. . .

[spriggy]

Sweet!

[mahuti]

Tiger-heli.... it seems to work for Steve Jobs.

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger-heli.... it seems to work for Steve Jobs.

Or Bill Gates, depending how you look at it 

[mahuti]

No... Bill Gates doesn't denounce a product before he releases the same thing.... he avoids talking about it, then copies it, or buys it out. Steve jobs talks miles of garbage about a sector... then releases something in that same sector.

[Tiger-Heli]

No... Bill Gates doesn't denounce a product before he releases the same thing.... he avoids talking about it, then copies it, or buys it out. Steve jobs talks miles of garbage about a sector... then releases something in that same sector.

okay, wasn't sure where you were going with that!

[RandyT]

Yes, Urebel mentioned the general concept long before Randy did, but Randy said that Urebel's mappings did not work well and were quickly abandoned.

Personally, I don't see that as copying, but I would advise you to document how you determine the mappings, particularly if they happen to end up matching those used by the GP-Wiz49.

This is something I would like to address.

I was inspired by urebel's page, as well as the thoughts of another user here.  I deviated from both of them, as I often do, and created my own vision of what I thought would be possible/beneficial.

I'd like to thank both of the parties responsible for the inspiration, but the functionality and methodology is not the same as the published examples and, as has been assured to me by outside professionals, unique.

It is methodology that is being questioned, not concept.

RandyT

[Goz]

Cat fight!

[Tiger-Heli]

I was inspired by urebel's page, as well as the thoughts of another user here.  I deviated from both of them, as I often do, and created my own vision of what I thought would be possible/beneficial.

I'd like to thank both of the parties responsible for the inspiration, but the functionality and methodology is not the same as the published examples and, as has been assured to me by outside professionals, unique.

It is methodology that is being questioned, not concept.

RandyT

Howver, at least at face value, it was the whole concept, and not the methodology that Andy was initially questioning.

Whether his question was meant as a way of seeing whether or not he should try to exploit the methodology I guess time will tell.

[jer2665]

I gotta say I really appreciate all the work randy, and andy and all the others do for this, as i'm sure none of them can quit their jobs and rely on the community, but they all sell great products for good prices, so we aren't all screwed by bigger companies who don't care about the do it yourself'ers.

[Tiger-Heli]

I gotta say I really appreciate all the work randy, and andy and all the others do for this, as i'm sure none of them can quit their jobs and rely on the community, but they all sell great products for good prices, so we aren't all screwed by bigger companies who don't care about the do it yourself'ers.

Yes, I have to agree that it's great watching Andy and Randy introduce products that we didn't know we needed until they developed them.   

Tiger-heli, what i got from your whole point is that Andy is doing business.  Whether he has a problem with the item or not, if people will and want to buy them, why not sell them?  I work for a boat dealership, used to be in accessories, I don't like some of the items we sell, I don't feel it's necessary or whatever, but I'd order them and keep them in stock because people want it.  I want to have what people want, so they don't buy some stuff from me, then go down the road to the next boat dealership and pick up others.  Obviously in business you'd want as much of a market share as you can get.  While these are still just small business, it's still out to make some money.  my analogy isn't the best, but it should get the point across.

Well, I can follow the analogy.  Let me give you a similar one.

I work part-time for an auto parts store.  Some of the products we sell, I don't particularly like, but we keep them.  I don't push them on people, but if they want them they are free to buy them.  OTOH, there are products that I don't like that I know our competitor's carry, and I will refer people to them if they really want the product and I can't talk them out of it.  That's just good business.

But we would lose a LOT of credibility if the store ran an ad stating that Brand-X transmission additive didn't work well, then figured that since eveyone was still buying Brand-X transmission additive, we had better come out with a Brand-Y transmission additive that was basically the same thing, but told everyone else how well it worked.

Another example -  A couple of years ago, I was in the Ford dealership for some warranty work and overheard the regional sales guy prepping the salesmen.  He was trying to move Escorts and wanted the salesmen to mention that it had fuel injection so it didn't have problems with altitude changes, and it had dual diagonal brake systems, so if one brake failed it wouldn't skid to one side or change directions.  Exactly what competing carburated vehicle did he think I might be looking at in 2003?  A Yugo?  A used 1984 Accord?  And the dual diagonal braking thing was a NHTSA mandate from something like 1970.  Sure, it's marketing, but is it a good way to do business?

OTOH, I guess this shows the level of competition, which can only be good for end-users like us.

[Flinkly]

so andy, do you know of a competitively priced analog stick that has a good feel to it?  i did ask randy about this in the GP thread, and he had some good points on price and feel of analog sticks.  i only ask since it seems to me that your creating an analog stick interface that mimics 49/8/4/2 and even analog sticks.  please tell me if i'm wrong, cause i wouldn't want to add to the fight.  i am glad that it's a competative market, but...i just hate to see you guys fight.  or whatever you wanna call it.

now let me get back out of the way before you guys start back up the fisticuffs...

[AndyWarne]

Howver, at least at face value, it was the whole concept, and not the methodology that Andy was initially questioning.

Whether his question was meant as a way of seeing whether or not he should try to exploit the methodology I guess time will tell.

Absolutely, it was the concept I was questioning. It was an attempt at getting an answer to the question, and I did in fact get some very helpful answers.

Unfortunately, as I suspected, just like one of those Rottweilers that, when you pat them and say "nice doggie" they bite you on the leg, things turned nasty.

Before posting this, I discussed this subject with a local MAME enthusiast who does some testing for me (I know he will be reading this) and neither of us could come to any firm conclusion on the value of mapping. Hence turning to the obvious place to research the subject! So, yes, based on the replies I have changed my mind on this!
I have not changed my mind on other issues, for example:
Gamepad issues with certain combinations of OS/software. I allude to this on the A-PAC page and state that XP should be used.
4-Way sticks are best with a restrictor plate.
I personally don't like the Suzo stick, but do sell them.

I have been speaking to manufacturers about our analog stick for some months, the A-PAC was designed specifically for this stick. The stick will have restrictor plates. If I do decide to do any mapping this will in no way be based on Randys product, and in fact could not be, as an analog stick is not the same as a 49-way. I would probably just carve up the circle of movement into 4 or 8 equal sectors.
I feel that analog sticks have too much physical travel to be used as 4 -8 way sticks without a restrictor anyway.
Andy

[Tiger-Heli]

so andy, do you know of a competitively priced analog stick that has a good feel to it?

Andy has stated that he is coming out with an analog stick, so I'll let him provide more details.

Define competitively priced and analog stick.  Saitek makes some $15 PC joysticks that are pretty decent.  RandyT sells the 49-way for about $33.  1Up has a trigger-stick version of it for around $80.  Happ wants I think about $100 for theirs.  The same Happ stick goes on E-bay for $15.

[AndyWarne]

so andy, do you know of a competitively priced analog stick that has a good feel to it?

[mrdriver]

Hi to all, hey my first post
I have visited this site for years, have a couple of examples in here and feature in Project Arcade. Anyway, I just wanted to say...

A few weeks later, Andy introduces the A-PAC, basically a Gamepad encoder with support for analog inputs, sortof a combination of the Daveb's AKI and the GP-Wiz.

[Tiger-Heli]

Andy, you are talking apples and oranges here, but let me explain (well, it seemed less like apples and orange as I typed it).

I agree that an analog joystick will need it's range of travel restricted to feel right in digital games.  This makes sense to me and is actually a very interesting concept.  Two points:

First - You are not doing the same thing.  RandyT is taking an optical stick, reading the inputs and then feeding it to the computer as (analog or digital outputs, depending on mode) from an analog joystick.  You will be starting with an analog joystick, so not sure how much translation will be required for digital games, but some will, since even with a restricted 4-way, your stick will (essentially) be able to hit two switches at the same time.  (I realize it is pot values and not microswitches, but you get the idea).

Second - You will need some way to ensure that the restriction doesn't interfere with the functioning.  I.e. if you move the stick up but the restriction stops it at 1/3 travel, MAME still has to interpret this as UP (but the deadzone command can hopefully handle this).

If I do decide to do any mapping this will in no way be based on Randys product, and in fact could not be, as an analog stick is not the same as a 49-way.

Well it could be - depends how you look at it.  A 49-way stick has 3 level of travel in each primary direction, an analog has 128, but if you resolve the analog values into 3 "bands", you essentially mimic a 49-way stick.  From there, you could mimic a 4-way just like Randy's product does.

I would probably just carve up the circle of movement into 4 or 8 equal sectors.

Well, Randy said that he initially tried that and it didn't work to well.

Sounds like a cool idea, though.

[Lilwolf]

Back on topic.... About the 49way ->4way and how to make it work better.

I have always questioned if the 'matrix' was static.

[RandyT]

Randy does seem to jump down Andy's throat everytime? And yes I'm that "local MAME enthusiast" Andy just mentioned

Dear Andy's "Mom",

Please enlighten your "son" as to how deliberate denegration of competitors products, jumping into announcement threads for those same products with inaccurate negative comments,  veiled insults, and condescending comments  like "Unfortunately, as I suspected, just like one of those Rottweilers that, when you pat them and say "nice doggie" they bite you on the leg, things turned nasty."  is very likely to cause someone who is not enamored by his supposed "prowess" to very possibly jump down his throat.

Thank You,
RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

A few weeks later, Andy introduces the A-PAC, basically a Gamepad encoder with support for analog inputs, sortof a combination of the Daveb's AKI and the GP-Wiz.  Again, probably not a direct copy, but a little suspect given the previous comments about gamepads in MAME.

I spoke to Andy about the A-PAC a few months ago, whilst in development and before that thread even existed. In addition, how else would you interface a steering wheel, pedals or other analogue device without using a gamepad in Windows? Yes it's a gamepad interface, but primarily an interface for analogue controls.

Well, thank you for validating my earlier points.

You said the A-PAC was in development months ago, and the GP-Wiz thread didn't exist, but only about a month ago, (in the GP-Wiz (not GP-Wiz49) thread) Andy stated that gamepads didn't work well in MAME as an interface.  So he was saying they didn't work well at the same time he was developing (or getting ready to release) a product based on the concept.

[monkeybomb]

DAAAMN

Andy are you gonna take that?  He just questioned the very nature of your upbringing.  He's basically saying your mom is inadequate as a parent.  I think you should respond for the sake of your family.

[RandyT]

He's basically saying your mom is inadequate as a parent.  I think you should respond for the sake of your family.

Actually, you missed it.  I'm sure Andy's Mom is a nice lady (as is mine, believe it or not) It was mrdriver who I was responding to, apparently taking the role.  See meaning of "quotes" around things.

Ahh well...if you have to explain, it doesn't work......

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

He's basically saying your mom is inadequate as a parent.  I think you should respond for the sake of your family.

Actually, you missed it.  I'm sure Andy's Mom is a nice lady (as is mine, believe it or not) It was mrdriver who I was responding to, apparently taking the role.  See meaning of "quotes" around things.

Ahh well...if you have to explain, it doesn't work......

Worked for me.  I initially caught the sarcasm, but not who it was directed at, but now that you explained it . . .

[CheffoJeffo]

I think it's safe to say that this thread has turned the corner from a somewhat interesting technical debate to ad hominem nonsense ...

[AndyWarne]

I think it's safe to say that this thread has turned the corner from a somewhat interesting technical debate to ad hominem nonsense ...

Yes. Methinks it's time to go to the pub...

[Flinkly]

this may seem weird, or not, but i'm getting two gpwiz-49's and an A-pac, and already have a mini-pac.

[RandyT]

I think it's safe to say that this thread has turned the corner from a somewhat interesting technical debate to ad hominem nonsense ...

Never underestimate the value of "ad hominem nonsense".

It's often how world leaders are elected   

RandyT