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Author Topic: The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue  (Read 11185 times)

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Druin

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The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« on: May 06, 2003, 08:05:57 pm »
Now that I'm finally heading into building my own cabinet/controls, I am interested in analysis of that joystick issue.  I forgot some of the finer details.

I know MAME had that sticky mode thing or something, trying to do the same as logic gates would do to block out diagonals or some such, to have an 8 way only respond on the 4 main directions, but this still would require accurate joystick motion, which isn't satisfactory....

So since I haven't had the chance to do experimenting with my own parts (I just ordered Ipac and Optipac finally, maybe when I get those I can try it myself), I would like to know if anyone else can fill in the detail on exactly why the 8 way doesn't make a good responsive 4way when you try to apply digital logic to the switches to condition it?

what I mean is....I think the reason an 8 way didn't respond like a 4 way was because unless you press dead on in the 4 way directions, you'd have some diagonal response, and any digital circuit (or MAME sticky option) would filter out the diagonal, thus registering nothing at all unless you hit it dead on in 4way directions.

Is that the situation that everyone has given up on using 8ways as 4ways?

If that's what the problem is, I may be interested in a study on my own for my own interest, to see if I can come up with a circuit to better translate 8way joystick action into a 4 way response, by analyzing the diagonal signals.

I dont' want to have a 4 way stick on a panel, that's why, and I find the thought of manually switching a restrictor plate to be tedious....if I could kick in a circuit, that'd be good for me.

So my thought would be something to the effect of...if you are going to move Right on an 8way, and you are a bit off and hit a diagonal up, I'd like to look at the signals and see if the Right switch is hit before the Up switch (on diagonal) and if so, to register a "Right" because it looks like that was the intention....and if "Up" seems to have been struck first, then register an Up....so instead of filtering out diagonals I'd like to observe them and deduce the intentions of the player.  This is on the assumption of course, that when intending to press a direction, that one switch is actually hit before another in a repeatable fashion that this could work.  That is what I want to study.

Maybe I'd find some other pattern like this, that would be reliable.


Any thoughts?  It's not as tedious to DO as it may seem, since I'm interested in it myself and that takes away any grunt work on developing something so trivial when all one has to do is get a 4way stick or restrictor etc....

If it works out...I'll publish it for public knowledge

Cue-Ball

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2003, 08:26:10 pm »
No offense, but i think doing this is going to be a waste of your time.  No logic can ever replace the physical feel of a 4-way stick with a diamond-shaped restrictor.  People have tried all sorts of solutions to this problem and the only TRULY satisfactory one is to use a real 4-way stick.  Besides, this is an awful lot of work when you could just buy one of Oscar's restrictor plates or, space permitting, spend an extra $15 on a true 4-way stick.

Druin

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2003, 08:59:39 pm »
That's the problem, space isn't permitting this time!  I'm jammed up with 8ways and have no room for 4 ways...I may compromise somewhere but I wouldn't mind the digital approach attempt.  But as I said it wouldn't be a lot of effort since I do this sort of design for a living and it's not out of my normal line of sight to work on...
In my case I have the luxury of not really being familiar with the exact feel of a classic 4 way.

I played the games but I was too young to pay attention to detail, so if I could get an 8way to respond well enough, it'd be fine with me.

But for those things I DO recall, yeah, nothing but authentic will do for those cases/people.  

I just bought my Xenophobe joystick, now I'm looking for a spy hunter panel....

Frostillicus

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2003, 09:01:04 pm »
isn't there a real mod or utility for mame that addresses this exact problem - only with software?  Can't think of it right now...it just stops the registering of the diagonals.  But nothing can beat a true 4-way; moving from down directly to right is much different than moving from down to sliding through a diagonal which may or may not register, to finally hitting right.

Druin

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2003, 09:30:11 pm »
isn't there a real mod or utility for mame that addresses this exact problem - only with software?  Can't think of it right now...it just stops the registering of the diagonals.  But nothing can beat a true 4-way; moving from down directly to right is much different than moving from down to sliding through a diagonal which may or may not register, to finally hitting right.


If it's the same software fix I am thinking of, it may just ignore the diagonals, which doesn't address the real issue.  I have been observing the mechanical activity of my 8way as I move it in 4way positions, and it looks like the problem isn't with initially hitting a direction from center point, it's when you try to switch from one 4way position to another, like going from Up to Right, I find that the Up switch is never released when I try to move Right, so I go from Up, to Up-Right diagonal...  

And if the software blocks diagonals, it won't see me moving from the Up position at all.

So my proposal would be to have something analyze this movement and realize I'm trying to move Right.  Which I think I can easily do.

As for the feel of a 4way, do you think there is a big physical difference in the feel or does that feel have something to do more with psychological impact of frustraction with trying to get an 8way to register without such precise movements?

ie  if you could use an 8way and just treat it like a 4way and casually try to change directions, and have it do so without diagonal registration fuss, would that be playable to you?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 09:31:14 pm by Druin »

Frostillicus

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2003, 09:36:53 pm »
ie  if you could use an 8way and just treat it like a 4way and casually try to change directions, and have it do so without diagonal registration fuss, would that be playable to you?
Honestly, not really - if you get past the hardware and software problems..there is a 'feel' to a four-way (i own the mspacman reunion stick, BTW) than say, a super or competition.  Much different throw range and weight feels.

Besides, I can see your solution for moving from south-->southeast--->east, but what about if the person goes from east---->northwest?  how do you know if he 'meant' to go east--->north or east--->west?  I use comps and supers and I'm all over the place with those things...no way I could be accurate enough without focusing on it, which would take away from the game playing focus... ;)

Druin

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2003, 09:50:45 pm »
ie  if you could use an 8way and just treat it like a 4way and casually try to change directions, and have it do so without diagonal registration fuss, would that be playable to you?

Besides, I can see your solution for moving from south-->southeast--->east, but what about if the person goes from east---->northwest?  how do you know if he 'meant' to go east--->north or east--->west?  I use comps and supers and I'm all over the place with those things...no way I could be accurate enough without focusing on it, which would take away from the game playing focus... ;)


For heading straight to a new diagonal from the middle of nowhere like that, that's where I was going to analyze some trials and see if there's a repeatable pattern that if you really meant to go one or the other out of a given diagonal, and you were approaching primarily that direction (North or West), then you'd actually have a switch closure in that direction before the other completes the diagonal...and then it could be filtered out...

Example, If you are at center and try to go North, but strike North and West, if you are primarily throwing the joystick north, but slip and hit diagonal, MAYBE the north switch is closed slightly before West...and if you try to go west but hit diagonal, maybe west is closed slightly before northwest....

It's a reasonable assumption based on experience generally, but would have to be looked at on a digital oscilloscope at work, to verify that it will happen this way "every" time.  

After playing around with the stick (Mechanical Happ rotary) I do feel the diagonal positions, and can see what the feel would be like....but I'm still going to give it a shot for amusement.


I've noticed that if I'm sitting North, and try to go East, I do end up northeast pretty much every time, so that must be the problem people are having with 8ways as a 4way mostly.  Going dead on is hard.  

paigeoliver

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2003, 11:24:18 pm »
That's the problem, space isn't permitting this time!  I'm jammed up with 8ways and have no room for 4 ways

How much room do you need?

Here is a picture of the left side of my panel. I even included a tape measure to show scale. What you have there is the two best joysitcks around, an 8-Way leaf Wico and a Ms. Pac-Reunion joystick.

I noticed you said you are jammed up with 8-ways. How many are you using? You do realize that 4-way games outnumber 4-PLAYER games by a huge margin. You will probably want to play a 4-way game ten times more often than those player 3 and 4 slots will be used.
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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2003, 11:32:19 pm »
I think its a great idea.
I have a Ms. Pacman re-union 4 way and I love it.
But if I could have flipped a switch and played
frogger and Pacman with my existing 8 -way I probably would have went that way. If designing a circuit like this
is something you think you could do, I say go for it.
You can't beat the feel of a dedicated 4-way, but this could turn out to be a good option for a lot of people.

                              Slug54
 

paigeoliver

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2003, 11:36:52 pm »
I think its a great idea.
I have a Ms. Pacman re-union 4 way and I love it.
But if I could have flipped a switch and played
frogger and Pacman with my existing 8 -way I probably would have went that way. If designing a circuit like this
is something you think you could do, I say go for it.
You can't beat the feel of a dedicated 4-way, but this could turn out to be a good option for a lot of people.

                              Slug54
 


I don't like the idea of flipping a switch. How the heck are guest players supposed to know which games are 8-way, and which games are 4-way? The Mame info/developer people don't even seem to know half the time. Even if they knew, they would have to open up the panel, find the switch without disturbing the wiring. etc. FORGET THAT.

I just have them both right there. For popular games I have it preset for only the "correct" joystick to control the game (they are wired separately).
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

Druin

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2003, 11:47:18 pm »
Yeah originally I wasn't going to have 3/4 player layout, I rarely expect even 2 players to be used, but my limitation is based on 2 things...
1 being I want the standard  1 / 2 player dimension cab, which by nature doesn't have much space on the panel when you add the trackball and spinner and extra buttons..

2 being I am planning to go with a modular control insert scheme, where each insert block will likely be the same size, which is 6inches square.  So there will be dead space on joystick inserts but 6 button inserts would be just right for width.  With 5 of these 6inch inserts, it pretty much maxes out the width of a panel that I'd like to have, and that would give player 1 joystick, buttons, player 2 joystick, buttons, and then trackball in the middle...5 blocks wide.
And presumably I'd have the 8 ways on there.  With the modular design of course I could just have a 4way stick insert to stick in when needed, but even with a modular design I would like to minimize the swapping as much as possible.

So on a side note, how do I plan to make interchangeable block modules that are stable to support gameplay?  I am still working on my concept but I have some motors with threaded shafts and I am hoping to put a matching nut on each module box, and have a motor in each control panel slot so I drop in the box, activate the motor to pull it in the last bit, and then it's locked plus stable for game play...the shafts seem strong and I can add some degree of restriction with metal plates (wooden panel)

Why all the modules anyway?  And why all 6 inches equal size if joysticks don't need that much?
Because I want to be able to take any module and plug it into any slot, and it will auto-recognize what it is based on jumpers on the insert module.  So I can just interchange joystick and button inserts to turn right handed into left handed players, and the config jumpers on the inserts would allow me to plug a joystick into anywhere and it's still showing up as player 1, if that's how it's set.  

No harnesses to plug and unplug....just a row of pins on the inserts, and a socket on each panel space, so the insert will plug in and out of the socket belonging to that panel slot through the action of the motor pulling or releasing the insert.  

Rather than pull out the insert and then fumble harnesses, I just hit the release button, the motor shoots the block up a bit, I grab it and pull it out, done...drop it somewhere else and it still works as configured.  

I have to custom design this interface scheme obviously but it's my hobby and I've thought about it for 2 years now so I'm ready to go on it.  My cab is going to be weird....but if it all works out, I think everyone will like it.

With that panel setup...I can swap anything, analog spinner/trackball, or digital keyboard buttons/joysticks...if I want a trackball on the far left for some reason (player 1 joystick normally) I just drop the trackball in there and it works as a trackball still.

So I wanted to try to digitally make an 8 way into a 4 way so I can just throw another switch and have it happen rather than swapping the new 4way insert block....I'd like to keep the swapping down to bare necessity like obviously when it's time to play spy hunter or Tron or Xenophobe, I need those inserts, or karate champ, I need to swap the 6button insert for another joystick insert....but if I can convert 8way to 4way electronically...that's what I'll attempt.

To get player 3 and 4 support while maintaining the look of a 2player cab, I will just settle for satellite control panel addons that can be brought up and plugged in when needed, which is not often.


Druin

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2003, 11:52:49 pm »
 


they would have to open up the panel, find the switch without disturbing the wiring. etc. FORGET THAT.


I plan to have any switching mechanisms externally accessible...so noone has to dig inside...it won't be in plain sight, maybe flip down a "control panel" (?) for it...

Maybe a tiny switch near the joystick itself that wouldn't interfere with playing.

It's inconvenient one way or the other to do it but in my mind, having alll those extra controls adds to the enthusiasm of having a custom designed unit to play around with.

It could even be software controlled (but that to me is inconvenient)...pull up a menu and click something and it toggles the circuit via parallel port output.  But that would be hard to do if you're already in a game.  

Well first step is get the concept validated to begin with


jerryjanis

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2003, 12:17:13 am »
I'm thinking that it would be a worthwhile software addition to Mame to set up the 4way joystick processing to work like that.

I realize that it wouldn't work quite as well as your circuit:  Do I have this right?  Windows is doesn't process keyboard key presses quickly enough to detect minute changes (like whether left or up was pressed first when hitting a diagonal).

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2003, 12:25:07 am »
I like the idea.  Though I agree with the other poster that said this might be better implemeted for the average user as a MAME code change rather than a physical circuit.  If you get the logic to work in hardware then it should be pretty easy to copy it in software.

If you can pull it off, this would be a great improvement for big 8-way trigger sticks that aren't compatible with OSCAR restrictor plates.  There's been a lot of talk on this board lately about the whole Tron 'stick issue.  This could potentially solve that problem.

Good luck! ;)

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2003, 05:05:00 am »
The problem is 8way sticks do diagonals, and no software or hardware can tell if you're moving from up to left, or if you accidently are pushing up-left when you still want up.

There's only four real solutions: a) get a 4-way, b) get a restrictor plate, c) get an 8-way with small diagonals, d) get an analog stick and add analog-to-4way logic to mame / hardware.  A bad solution: become very good at staying straight up or down or left or right, and never hit diagonals.

Mame's source:
   /* If joystick is pointing at a diagonal, acknowledge that the player moved
    * the joystick by favoring a direction change.  This minimizes frustration
    * when using a keyboard for input, and maximizes responsiveness.
    *
    * For example, if you are holding "left" then switch to "up" (where both left
    * and up are briefly pressed at the same time), we'll transition immediately
    * to "up."
    *
    * Under the old "sticky" key implentation, "up" wouldn't be triggered until
    * left was released.

... code logic ...

   /* If we are still pointing at a diagonal, ....
    * the player moved the joystick from the idle position directly
    * to a diagonal, or from one diagonal directly to an extreme diagonal.
    *
    * The chances of this happening with a keyboard are slim, but we still need to
    * constrain this case.
    *
    * For now, just resolve randomly.
    */

This logic is fine if you have small diagonals, but if you have pretty big diags, so big you sometimes accidentally hit the diag when you don't want to, this logic can case problems.  IE, you're holding up, and slide to mostly-up but hitting-a-"up-left"-diag, mame assumes you're switching from up to left.  All of a sudden, you're going left even though you're holding mostly up.

BTW, this logic is exactly what most people discribe when making a hardware logic board that switches 8-way to "be like a 4-way".


Mame used to do it the other way (ie: the direction which was hit first stayed as the "4-way direction" until that direction was stopped being pressed.)  But that ran into "to slow" complaints, and was dropped.

BTW, this logic is exactly what others discribe in their hardware logic board that switches 8-way to "be like a 4-way".


So many people complain about both software/hardware ways of simulating 4-ways, some driver writers have said, "screw it, I'll call it an 8way in the driver, and let the user have to use real 4-way hardware" instead of having to listen to all the complaints.

I seriously doubt there is a way to simulate 4way with 8way sticks that works with all 8way sticks and keyboards so well it satisfies most people.  They all have been tried.


BTW, that analog solution + hardware logic board can have a switch to a 8 way or 4 way.  You could even have it switch between analog, 8way, and 4way logic.  Only way if you really want to be able from 8way to 4way on the same stick, besides a restrictor plate of course.

Analog logic:
Send analog signal straight through.

4way logic:
(this is set so if they're push far enough, which ever direction is pushed more is set as the direction.  See shown, the 45 degree directions favor up and down over left and right, but it has to be exactly a diagonal.  Assuming up and left being negative values on the analog stick.  This can also be done in software, too, be currently isn't in mame.)
If |X| > min angle and |X| > |Y|
{
if X is negative {direction = "left"}
else {direction = "right"}
}
else if |Y| > min angle and |Y| >= |X|
{
if Y is negative {direction = "up"
else {direction = "down"}
}
else
direction = "center"


8way logic
(many ways to do this.  The following is pretty much how swithes on an 8way do it, assuming up and left being negative values on the analog stick)
If X < min up value, up = true
if X > min down value,  down = true
if Y < min left value, left = true
if Y > min right value, right = true
Robin
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paigeoliver

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2003, 06:03:42 am »
I don't understand why so many people are dead set against getting an actual 4-way joystick, but then they go out and buy spinners, steering wheels, analog flight sticks, and lightguns, and trackballs, and stuff like that.

There are literally HUNDREDS of 4-way games in Mame, compared to a couple dozen or so for each of those other oddball controllers.
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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2003, 06:49:31 am »
Looks like Urebel has a good handle on it, but you might want to contact Derrick (sp?) R. (Renauld?) (sp?) before you start messing with the MAME code.  He's more or less the MAME dev for discrete sounds now, but he was the one who originally developed the "sticky-mode" software that you mention being added to MAME.

Aside from that, I highly recommend OSCAR's restrictors.  Compact and quick to swap in and out.
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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2003, 11:05:26 am »
Well, the whole 4 way vs 8 way thing is mostly feel ... kinda like leaf vs microswitch   and supers vs competitions (etc etc)

I don't want to stifle innovation, but i'm not optimisitic that the 4 way action will be good enough (coming from one who suffers through sloppy 4 way play on 8 way super clones)...  but that's just my opinion.

Let me toss an alternative idea, as you are pretty adept with electronics/etc.... and seem keen on the idea of "flipping a switch" to electronically enable/disable 4 way action....

Why not try one of ultimarcs t, e, or j-sticks BUT devise some sort of solenoid/motor electro mechanical way of rotating the restrictor plate which seems to resemble a gear (or flipping the switch on the T-sticks)

in the past it seemed like it would take too much engineering to figure out how to do the gear reduction and correct start/stopping points properly but maybe you are up to the task =P

*shrug*  Just an idea while we're kicking it around...

Rampy

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2003, 01:31:59 pm »
Well, Druin, looks like I may be the only one on your side.  I actually built a digital logic solution and simulated it.  Just waiting for my parts to come in to implememnt it.  The way mine works is:

The output stays on the last single direction selected.  For example, if you are left, then go left/up, the output stays left until left is released.

I can understand this concept of "feel" and the 8ways not having a 4way feel, but like Druin, I want to see for myself.

I'm not sure of your electrical background, Druin, but the schematics are pretty simple.  A few NORs, inverters, and Latches, and you have the solution.  PM me if you need some help.

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2003, 01:56:17 pm »
 Ever think about getting a T or J-stick? They are 8-way but the actuator can be rotated so they perform in 4-way mode. This is a physical restrictor so there are no dead-zones and your space problem would be solved. Check them out at www.ultimarc.com  

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2003, 05:26:45 pm »
I'm thinking that it would be a worthwhile software addition to Mame to set up the 4way joystick processing to work like that.

I realize that it wouldn't work quite as well as your circuit:  Do I have this right?  Windows is doesn't process keyboard key presses quickly enough to detect minute changes (like whether left or up was pressed first when hitting a diagonal).

That's right, it would just show up as 2 simultaneous keystrokes on a keyboard, can't differentiate the timing like that...it must be hardware to sense something like that

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2003, 05:41:31 pm »
Well, Druin, looks like I may be the only one on your side.  I actually built a digital logic solution and simulated it.  Just waiting for my parts to come in to implememnt it.  The way mine works is:

The output stays on the last single direction selected.  For example, if you are left, then go left/up, the output stays left until left is released.

I can understand this concept of "feel" and the 8ways not having a 4way feel, but like Druin, I want to see for myself.

I'm not sure of your electrical background, Druin, but the schematics are pretty simple.  A few NORs, inverters, and Latches, and you have the solution.  PM me if you need some help.

That's an approach I haven't thought of yet, latching just the 4way directions when they are hit....yeah that's simple enough to implement...

For tryout, rather than discreet logic I'd probably pull out my FPGA/CPLD development board, write some VHDL code to describe the logic, dump it in the chip and run it....I find that faster than breadboarding.

BUT one thing I can foresee with that going wrong....(though maybe a combination of your latching and some other concepts)....when I was just trying out the joystick last night physically moving and observing the actuator hitting the microswitches....when going from straight up, and attempting to go Left, I would end up going from straight up, to up-left-diagonal, without having released UP at all, even though I'm trying to go solid Left....

So your latches may not release Up in that case, and we're trying to go left....

So I'm trying to think of some fuzzy logic where we can try to intelligently look at where we're leaving, and what we're now registering on the joystick, and see what makes the most sense in what we would be trying to do in a  4 way frame of mind...

One problem is as someone said, if you're trying to aim Up, but are slightly left, thus hitting diagonal....then as was my case, I want to go left, I still stay diagonal and nothing is really registered as a change on the stick...

This is the part I have to observe on some LEDs or a scope and just try moving the 8way around and see what appears to happen.  Maybe there is no way out...

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2003, 06:06:51 pm »
A gate array would be good, but my implementation will just be (1) hex inverter, (2) Dual 3-input NOR, and (1) quad SR latch.  I ran a transient SPICE simulation with different directional pulses and it seems to work fine.

As far a some fuzzy logic I don't know that it is necessary.  If you are going from up to left, it usually isn't a slight movement.  You will most likely release up then actuate left.  once on left, you may actuate up again involuntarily, but the logic will stay left.  

But like I said, there are many skeptics so, until I implement it and play with it, I won't know for sure how well it works.

The next question is what type of switch to put on the CP?  I'd like a regular pushbutton that isn't momentary contact, but may have to use something not as good looking.  Any ideas for presentable switches for the CP?

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2003, 06:21:41 pm »
caykroyd,

It sounds like you're trying to use a hardware solution to do the same thing that Mame used to do in software (not register a change in direction until the "original" direction is released).  I think you're going to find this quite unsatisfactory.  While it might work decent enough on some games where your movement is restricted (Pac-Man, for example) it's probably going to feel slow and unresponsive for most 4-way games.  Kudos on your ambition and ingenuity, but in the end i don't think you'll be happy with the results you could have had by simply purchasing an E-stick.

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2003, 06:30:16 pm »
A gate array would be good, but my implementation will just be (1) hex inverter, (2) Dual 3-input NOR, and (1) quad SR latch.

When too many chips get involved I start to look at the cost and then I do the pros and cons of just springing for the $5 44 pin xilinx CPLD chip that Ican reconfigure...

The next question is what type of switch to put on the CP?  I'd like a regular pushbutton that isn't momentary contact, but may have to use something not as good looking.  Any ideas for presentable switches for the CP?

NO idea yet...but of course if you want to do a toggle on/off with a momentary, you can latch it




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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2003, 06:35:59 pm »
Good point.  Why didn't I think of that?  Then have a LED or something on the CP to tell whether it's 4way or 8way.

Cue-Ball,

My guess is that I will end up with an E-stick or OSCAR plate because so many people are displeased otherwise, but want to try the logic solution for Ss & Gs.

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2003, 06:53:41 pm »
I'm beginning to fear the prospects of applying logic to the 8way, but nonetheless I am about to hook up some LEDs to visualize when I hit a direction/diagonal and see what is happening...

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2003, 07:48:42 pm »
After hooking up some LEDs I noticed I kept getting stuck in the diagonals...if I am up, then go right, I almost always land in the diagonal, which is still ok, BUT when I try to go back Up, I may still be in the diagonal so no observable change is evident...

So almost immediately after discovering this...I started thinking about a way to make use of the free box of new solenoids I got at work...

So now I'm staring at the Oscar 4way restrictor plate setup and brainstorming....the fact that it's in 2 pieces with a mount hole on each piece....I see opportunity to put RESTRICTORS on the restrictor to help guide it when it's pulled/pushed by a solenoid attached to the mount hole on it....so a solenoid could attach to the mount hole and pull that half of the plate set away from the shaft on an angle, and the other non-mount-hole part of that plate would be restrained from going out of wack too much..then the solenoid pushes the plate back in place and the restrictor guides the restrictor (WHAT??) back into position.


Just a thought


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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2003, 07:53:14 am »
Just a thought
And you have a USB connection from the PC to the solenoid, and a hack to the MAME source, so when you start a 4-way game in MAME it sends a signal over the USB interface to fire the solenoid to lock the restrictors in place and when you start a 8-way game it fires the solenoid to release the restrictors . . .

C'mon, how hard is it to drop some plates in and take them out ;)

But, I have to say, I still admire your ingenuity and inventiveness.
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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2003, 09:37:13 am »
One problem is as someone said, if you're trying to aim Up, but are slightly left, thus hitting diagonal....then as was my case, I want to go left, I still stay diagonal and nothing is really registered as a change on the stick...

This is the part I have to observe on some LEDs or a scope and just try moving the 8way around and see what appears to happen.  Maybe there is no way out...

What it boils down to is that when you hit a diagonal you're going to have to flip a coin on what was really meant.  I'm sure you can come up with some logic to guess correctly most of the time.  60%-90% who knows, but you'll never guess 100%.  And with 180 degrees or more out of 360 being diagonals the odds will catch you.  It's all been tried in software already.


Dave

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2003, 11:05:09 am »
After hooking up some LEDs I noticed I kept getting stuck in the diagonals...if I am up, then go right, I almost always land in the diagonal, which is still ok, BUT when I try to go back Up, I may still be in the diagonal so no observable change is evident...

So almost immediately after discovering this...I started thinking about a way to make use of the free box of new solenoids I got at work...

So now I'm staring at the Oscar 4way restrictor plate setup and brainstorming....the fact that it's in 2 pieces with a mount hole on each piece....I see opportunity to put RESTRICTORS on the restrictor to help guide it when it's pulled/pushed by a solenoid attached to the mount hole on it....so a solenoid could attach to the mount hole and pull that half of the plate set away from the shaft on an angle, and the other non-mount-hole part of that plate would be restrained from going out of wack too much..then the solenoid pushes the plate back in place and the restrictor guides the restrictor (WHAT??) back into position.


Just a thought



Druin,

Was my idea not feasible then?  Even if you went in a totally different direction I'd still be interested in your opinion on it.  (unless you discounted it because you don't have j-sticks/etc handy)  Just wondering.

*shrug*

rampy

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2003, 01:19:11 pm »
What about cutting down the square actuator on the happ joysticks?  This will reduce the amount of diagonal positions.  Has anyone tried this.  I'm really searching here because I don't want a  third joystick on my CP.  I'd almost rather have a rotating panel for 4way games.  Call me stubborn.

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2003, 05:12:56 pm »
I suggested in the following thread that maybe the Wico/Suzo inductive joystick could be hacked to be made 4/8 way switchable.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6294;start=0

Unfortunately I don't actually own one of these joysticks so I can't say whether this idea is plausible or a non-starter.
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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2003, 09:05:34 pm »
Just a thought
And you have a USB connection from the PC to the solenoid, and a hack to the MAME source, so when you start a 4-way game in MAME it sends a signal over the USB interface to fire the solenoid to lock the restrictors in place and when you start a 8-way game it fires the solenoid to release the restrictors . . .

C'mon, how hard is it to drop some plates in and take them out ;)

But, I have to say, I still admire your ingenuity and inventiveness.

thanks! Speaking of ingenuity, I don't think I mentioned my rotating LCD panel....I have a 17" LCD that I bought with the intent to use in my cab when it's made (for now it's my desktop monitor) and I bought it so I can easily rotate it without worrying about the weight, plus the fact that some CRT's can't safely be rotated...

I hooked up a DC motor to it alreayd and saw it spin easily...so what I'm going to do is launch mame.exe from a batch file that will detect the -rotate parameter, and based on if it's present or not, the batch file will branch to a section that runs a little  utility to poke the parallel port or something that I can hook up to automatically rotate the monitor for me when the games need it, no human intervention necessary....sensors and physical safety restrictors will make sure the monitor starts and stops where it should....etc.....So when I play arkanoid, the monitor goes vertical...I quit and run Shinobi, the monitor spins 90degrees....

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2003, 09:10:09 pm »

Druin,

Was my idea not feasible then?  Even if you went in a totally different direction I'd still be interested in your opinion on it.  (unless you discounted it because you don't have j-sticks/etc handy)  Just wondering.

rampy


That idea seems perfectly fine, I looked yesterday at the website and saw that the joystick is geared (I think) so that a motor could easily rotate that, but as was mentioned, people didn't want to have to fuss with gear ratios and other things...for me I would discount it for myself only because I don't have a stick like that to work with and I am more of an electronics than mechanical guy....so I don't have confidence that I could throw a motor on there and get it to spin adequately....I may be able to overdrive it and break it perhaps...

If I talk myself out of the restrictor plate solenoid concept...I will keep it in mind, and I encourage anyone else to try the J-stick motor thing

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2003, 01:14:19 pm »
Okay, I'm sick.....dreaming about my CP last night, I had an idea.  What if I fashion a joystick with both 4way and 8way actuators.  One on top of the other  Then add four more switches on top of the original four switches.  Now you can select which set of switches are being used.

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2003, 02:14:01 pm »
Okay, I'm sick.....dreaming about my CP last night, I had an idea.  What if I fashion a joystick with both 4way and 8way actuators.  One on top of the other  Then add four more switches on top of the original four switches.  Now you can select which set of switches are being used.

That shares the problem of most 4-way/8-way solutions in that it still has a circular path of movement instead of a diamond one.
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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2003, 04:57:26 pm »
Okay, I'm sick.....dreaming about my CP last night, I had an idea.  What if I fashion a joystick with both 4way and 8way actuators.  One on top of the other  Then add four more switches on top of the original four switches.  Now you can select which set of switches are being used.

That shares the problem of most 4-way/8-way solutions in that it still has a circular path of movement instead of a diamond one.

I think it's a cool idea, but might be hard to implement.  It would (if setup correctly) fix the major problem of 8way's as 4ways: like a real 4way it would switch from "left" to "up" at 45 degrees and only at 45 degrees.  

So you won't have the "feel".  IMO, that's not the major problem, only a minor, but highly opinionated problem.
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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2003, 05:42:25 pm »
thanks! Speaking of ingenuity, I don't think I mentioned my rotating LCD panel....I have a 17" LCD that I bought with the intent to use in my cab when it's made (for now it's my desktop monitor) and I bought it so I can easily rotate it without worrying about the weight, plus the fact that some CRT's can't safely be rotated...

Which brand/model is your LCD?  I've been looking for one that rotate's 90 degrees but haven't been able to find one.

Did it cost a LOT more than one that doesn't rotate?

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Re:The whole 8 way as a 4way joystick issue
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2003, 05:55:57 pm »
Which brand/model is your LCD?  I've been looking for one that rotate's 90 degrees but haven't been able to find one.

Did it cost a LOT more than one that doesn't rotate?


It's an LG 786LS
But for rotation, it has a fixed desktop base, non rotating, and has 4 mounting plate threads on the back to attach a walll mount kit (which could rotate)

otherwise I'm rotating it myself by bolting a custom frame to the back mount holes already there, and I have a motor with a long shaft bolted to this custom frame, and  I will have to mount the monitor to a circuilar plywood frame, support it by rubber casters to help hold it in place and help the wood roll in a circle, driven by the motor.