Jesus..

[Sephroth57]

so lately ive been wondering, if the bible and all that stuff is real. From a logical standpoint it seems as far fetched as dragons and wizards fighting each other. I feel like i only say i believe just because, its better than saying you dont. cause if it is real, youre on the good side, if its not real well then youre screwed anyway. But i dont think thats how your supposed to feel... anyone have any good reading material online addressing this?

[Bones]

Link

[paigeoliver]

The more you read it the less far fetched it all becomes. All of the really wild stuff is in the first dozen chapters of Genesis, AND if you read THAT in Hebrew much of it doesn't HAVE to be LITERAL, church tradition has just decided it is literal.

I can answer most basic questions. Science and the bible are not mutually exlusive, and most who claim that they are, are simply people who have an agenda to push.

[TalkingOctopus]

Forget the internet.  You really ought to get some real books at either the library or a book store.  I have read a lot on the 3 major western religions.  I recommend a few of Elaine Pagel's books on the Bible.  I thought they were very interesting.  Here are the ones I have read:

- Gospel of Thomas

- Origin of Satan

- Adam, Eve and the Serpent

I personally believe that the Bible is man made and not divinely inspired.  I think that each book in the bible had many authors as well as editors and had been mistranslated before they were canonized.

Now, let's get back to talking about arcade controls!!

[Sephroth57]

so, what do you mean its not supposed to be literal. are those stories true or just kind of true and exaggerated?

[Bones]

What I find amazing about the bible and its followers is what they choose to accept as important and what isn

[SeaMonkey]

so, what do you mean its not supposed to be literal. are those stories true or just kind of true and exaggerated?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, all the "weird rules" are from the law.

The law was for Jews, and no one else. Jesus swept away the law when he came. I'll repeat. The law was not for egyptians, the law was not for Americans. It is not for everyone on the bus, the law is not for us.

By currently accepted Christian beliefs the law doesn't apply to ANYONE anymore. Not even Jews.

The problem of clergy and child molestation is almost completely confined to the catholic church, which (in direct violation of scripture) orders it's clergy not to marry. It is a cause and effect situation. The bible says one thing, Catholic law says the opposite. Bad things result.

As for ANYTHING Jesus did. If you believe Jesus was the son of God, and that Jesus WAS God, then he could have and probably did all of that and much more. If you don't believe that, then you aren't going to beleive anything in the bible, because there is no fact more plainly stated than the fact that Jesus was the son of God.

Reading everything Jesus said, and everything he did, there is simply no evidence for the "Jesus was a great teacher, but he was just a man" viewpoint. He was either the son of God, or a complete nutjob who got REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY lucky.

I was speaking more of old testament events when I was speaking of some things not being literal. The New Testament is VERY literal (except Revelations).

[paigeoliver]

Or another example, the word "Adam" and the word "man" are the same word. Read his story with that little nugget of knowledge and all of a sudden the garden of Eden story didn't have to be about just two people, in fact it seems to be more about a whole bunch of people.

[SeaMonkey]

By currently accepted Christian beliefs the law doesn't apply to ANYONE anymore. Not even Jews.

Actually, Jesus never said that. He in fact was a Jew that followed the Law. "I don't come to rend the Law, I come to fulfill it!"

 Paul...a white guy....who never met Jesus and collected taxes, is the ONLY one that said that in the Bible.

[paigeoliver]

Jesus broke the law all the time, as did his followers. We just heard so much more of what Paul said because Paul wrote letters and Jesus never did.

Of course if you are rejecting Paul's writings, then, well, it would be a whole new religion.

[SeaMonkey]

Or another example, the word "Adam" and the word "man" are the same word. Read his story with that little nugget of knowledge and all of a sudden the garden of Eden story didn't have to be about just two people, in fact it seems to be more about a whole bunch of people.

Exactly, it's about all of us. The world is "created" as we experience it.
Things take on meaning as we have names for them. In the beginning, OUR litereral beginning, the earth is a dark void, then there is light...then we are crying when the doctor smacks us.

It puts into story form the entire life of every man that grows up and leaves the house, and gets a wife, and works and dies. It is the universal story of us all.

[SeaMonkey]

Jesus broke the law all the time, as did his followers. We just heard so much more of what Paul said because Paul wrote letters and Jesus never did.

Of course if you are rejecting Paul's writings, then, well, it would be a whole new religion.

It sure would. It would be the one Jesus talks about in the Gospels. It would be an invigorated Jeaudaism, instead of a whole new "club" that Jesus never mentioned.

I find it odd that a tax collector is the same guy that made Jesus' church without wall....have walls....and turn a profit.

It really isn't any of my business though. I am under the third covenant as a traditional Jew.

[Bones]

At the heart of Sephroth's statement is:

I feel like i only say i believe just because, its better than saying you dont. cause if it is real, youre on the good side, if its not real well then youre screwed anyway. But i dont think thats how your supposed to feel...

Humans seem to have a hardwired desire to call to the gods for solutions, it doesn't matter what faith you are or your religious preference. It seems as humans we are unable to accept that life is random and relatively pointless or without purpose. (That's not to say it can't be rewarding.) Believing there is a higher order makes us feel special, worthwhile and unique; it gives comfort and the worship of gods has existed throughout the ages in every human race in some form or another.

So why would you feel bad questioning the existence of Jesus or your own feelings on the matter? Nobody judges a person who says they don't believe in Santa Clause, UFO's, fortune tellers, numerology, Bigfoot or ghosts.

I was involved in an accident recently and got pretty smashed up. The second day I was in hospital I had a "do-gooder" (I am not using this term as a derogatory one), doing the rounds with the patients and spreading the word of the bible and how everything happens for a reason. I was polite and thanked him for his time and he moved onto the next bed selling the same product to the bloke next to me that had just lost both legs.

I sat there and considered that this is when people are at there most vulnerable and are most likely to reach for something to ease their suffering and discomfort. Many people are absorbed into the religious system at a young age when they can't mentally question what they are being told, or when they hit rock bottom and will accept anything that gives the illusion that

[toadman]

Paul...a white guy....who never met Jesus and collected taxes, is the ONLY one that said that in the Bible.

It sure would. It would be the one Jesus talks about in the Gospels. It would be an invigorated Jeaudaism, instead of a whole new "club" that Jesus never mentioned.

I find it odd that a tax collector is the same guy that made Jesus' church without wall....have walls....and turn a profit.

As an aside, if you go by the account in Acts 9, Paul did in fact meet Jesus, but that's probably a different discussion. If Paul wanted to turn a profit, he should have just stuck to making tents. His work to spread the Gospel got him beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, and thrown in prison multiple times. Not what I'd call a lucrative profession.

Regarding the Law, Jesus was not abolishing it, but he revealed its true extent. He called out the religious leaders of the day for turning the Law into a strict legalism, when it was meant to extend to the attitude of the heart. For instance, Jesus quotes the Law as saying "do not commit adultery," but then he says that even looking at a woman lustfully is committing adultery in your heart. Some of the Jews of that day may have been able to say they "kept the law" to the letter, but Jesus was saying God was more concerned with their heart than a set of rules and regulations. No human is blameless when you take it to that extent, hence the need for Jesus.

Additionally, I think you're attacking the traditions that grew up around the church over the years, more than the church described in the New Testament (even in Paul's letters). Just like the Jewish people in Jesus' day, Christians have proved very good at taking something that's heart-based, and turning it into a set of rules. Jesus was the hardest on the religious leaders, and I would imagine if he came today, there would be many people who call themselves "religious" that he would expose as well.

[danny_galaga]

wow! i tried to get back into reading my king james last night. left it at page 4 for about 3 months. up to page 7 now! riveting stuff...

[Sephroth57]

ive never actually sat down and read the bible, so i guess i should try to read some of it so i know a little more. But then i think, what if this book is just a fiction story some guy wrote, and it turned into the biggest religion in the world by accident. Like what if there was some kind of massive nuclear war on earth, nearly everyone died, its been so long after the war people have forgotten, and then they found "The Red Book of Westmarch" (the book written by Bilbo, which basicly is lord of the rings), since its written in a similar format, a telling of stories which happened to this person, what if they thought that was for real?

obviously a  little farfetched, but you see my point

[Dartful Dodger]

...the Pope stating that evolution is most likely fact not fiction...

The Theory of evolution is just that, a theory. You can not prove it, you can not dis prove it.

Darwin proved his THEORY by cutting off the tails of rats to show that rats wouldn't be born with shorter tails.

How many generations of rats would I have to drown before they developed gills?

..Darwin can't say, because it's a random mutation in science, blah blah blah...

In THEORY the rats could have been born with shorter tails, if their DNA was mutated to do so, so Darwin would still be right with his THEORY.  What a convenient THEORY.  It's all random so Darwin is always right.

I prefer to think I'm not a random mutation.
Does that make me smarter than Darwin?

YES!

[hulkster]

well i dont know about other Christians on this board, but i believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and there's no "gee thats a good story"...everything happened as it is written.  so theres no doubt for me.

[GGKoul]

Help me Jebus...

[clanggedin]

I believe in the bible as far as it has been translated correctly. The only way to know if what you are reading is true is by asking God in prayer if it is. You will either feel warm in your heart (true) of have a stupor of thought (false).

3. "Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts."
4. "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. "
5. "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. "

[Tritoch84]

*Opens can of worms, JUMBO SIZE*

Here ya go!



Seriously, some topics like this are best left off of a message board, they tend to attract hard headed people from both sides, it hasen't yet, I dont' think, but it will.

*Rocks Boat*

[SeaMonkey]

Humans seem to have a hardwired desire to call to the gods for solutions, it doesn't matter what faith you are or your religious preference. It seems as humans we are unable to accept that life is random and relatively pointless or without purpose.

If people think religion is an opiate, they are not using it correctly.

[Dartful Dodger]

Humans seem to have a hardwired desire to call to the gods for solutions, it doesn't matter what faith you are or your religious preference. It seems as humans we are unable to accept that life is random and relatively pointless or without purpose.

If people think religion is an opiate, they are not using it correctly.

opiate - noun {C} - a drug which contains opium, especially one which causes sleep

I don't sleep through church.

[SeaMonkey]

I don't sleep through church.

AMEN!

[Mameotron]

I'll agree and say that you either believe everything in the bible is true or none of it is true.

[SeaMonkey]

I'll have to check that out Mametron.

By the way, I love your quote!

[Bones]

...the Pope stating that evolution is most likely fact not fiction...

The Theory of evolution is just that, a theory. You can not prove it, you can not dis prove it.

Darwin proved his THEORY by cutting off the tails of rats to show that rats wouldn't be born with shorter tails.

How many generations of rats would I have to drown before they developed gills?

..Darwin can't say, because it's a random mutation in science, blah blah blah...

In THEORY the rats could have been born with shorter tails, if their DNA was mutated to do so, so Darwin would still be right with his THEORY.

[Mameotron]

Well, try this one on.

[Bones]

Well, try this one on.  Why do you think that God created a brand new Earth?  Certainly he is capable of creating a 100 million year old Earth, complete with fossils and diamonds.  There is evidence that his creations are made complete.  Adam was not created as a baby who then had to have someone raise him to adulthood.  Eve was also not created as a baby.  She was created as a completely fully grown woman.

I'll agree that the theory of evolution is vastly misunderstood.  But so is the idea of creation.  Certainly evolution as you describe it can work within the framework of creation as we see it.

Oh, the Earth = 6000 years old, but the flood wiped everything out 4,600 years ago.

If there is a God, and if indeed he did create the world, and its diversity of inhabitants and the laws of space & time, then yes- I would 100% agree that he could most definitely create the illusion of billion year old fossils, or create two fully developed adult humans.

It does seem like reaching to fit current discoveries and factual evidence into a faith that would never have supported such a suggestion 100 years ago though...

[paigeoliver]

Oh, and for all those who want to try out reading the bible. I suggest going out and spending a few bucks on an "NIV" translation (New International Version). As that is about 50 times easier to read since it uses modern english rather than middle ages era english.

[Bones]

Oh, and for all those who want to try out reading the bible. I suggest going out and spending a few bucks on an "NIV" translation (New International Version). As that is about 50 times easier to read since it uses modern english rather than middle ages era english.

I am not sure I want to read anything where you don't get to covenant thy neighbours ass. 

[sasuke_kun12]

make sure you guys don't go readin jehovah witness bibles or mormon bibles! they are screwed up versions of the bibles. they are known as septs (did i spell it right?) Just read the plain old bible. NIV would be fine. If you wanna ask questions just ask me!

[DrewKaree]

...the Pope stating that evolution is most likely fact not fiction...

The Theory of evolution is just that, a theory. You can not prove it, you can not dis prove it.

Darwin proved his THEORY by cutting off the tails of rats to show that rats wouldn't be born with shorter tails.

How many generations of rats would I have to drown before they developed gills?

..Darwin can't say, because it's a random mutation in science, blah blah blah...

In THEORY the rats could have been born with shorter tails, if their DNA was mutated to do so, so Darwin would still be right with his THEORY.  What a convenient THEORY.  It's all random so Darwin is always right.

I prefer to think I'm not a random mutation.
Does that make me smarter than Darwin?

YES!

Unfortunately, evolution is the most misunderstood of all scientific theory. I have read that the odds of a human being spontaneously created from a mutation is about as likely as a tornado ripping through a junkyard, and in it's chaos assembling a fully functioning jumbo jet. It just couldn't and would never happen, but this is the type of incorrect analogy the process is given by those who don

[Zakk]

I can add in only a little story.

[danny_galaga]

...the Pope stating that evolution is most likely fact not fiction...

The Theory of evolution is just that, a theory. You can not prove it, you can not dis prove it.

Darwin proved his THEORY by cutting off the tails of rats to show that rats wouldn't be born with shorter tails.

How many generations of rats would I have to drown before they developed gills?

..Darwin can't say, because it's a random mutation in science, blah blah blah...

In THEORY the rats could have been born with shorter tails, if their DNA was mutated to do so, so Darwin would still be right with his THEORY.

[Dartful Dodger]

Evolution=theory?? Yes, it is. Continental drift is also theory but is widely accepted as factual.

The bible is widely accepeted as factual too.

When time after time a theory survives scrutiny and experimentation it should be given the credentials and it deserves and not be so easily dismissed.

Evolution can't be proven or disproven, just like God.

Until death. 

I hope your faith in "science" can free your soul from Hell.

[danny_galaga]

hmmm, true in a sense. but when there is abundant evidence of one and a notable lack of evidence of the other, well...

[hulkster]

hmmm, true in a sense. but when there is abundant evidence of one and a notable lack of evidence of the other, well...

depends on what you say is evidence.  to me the Bible is all I need for evidence, and then the rest of the Earth and the love of Jesus in my heart (i know its corny, but its true) then thats all the "evidence" i need. 

[Dexter]

well i dont know about other Christians on this board, but i believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and there's no "gee thats a good story"...everything happened as it is written.