Jesus..

[hulkster]

while your questions are valid, they are not necessarily thought out.

[Dartful Dodger]

What is the most christian, to live a peaceful life being good to others but not believing the bible to be the literal word of God, or to believe everything in the bible happened exactly as it is written and still kill in Gods name?

Is it more Christian to believe everything in the bible happened exactly as it is written and live a peaceful life being good to others, or to not believe the bible and kill for money and power?

Is it more Christian to go to the gym, or go to the store?

Is it more Christian to wear white socks, or to eat cheese?

Is it more Christian to make up silly "this or that" questions thinking people are stupid enough to believe they have to fall into one category or the other, or to belittle people who make silly posts?

The Lord loves me.

[Shape D.]

Gym, Cheese, Belittle people.

[Pieman2004]

I was raised in a Christian family. My grandfather is actually a pastor. Lately I haven't cared about religion. I haven't cared about Jesus or God or whatever else. I used to hear people talking about how when they didn't have Jesus it was like they had a whole in their heart they couldn't fill. Well I don't have Jesus in my heart right now and I'm happy with my life.
I have a wife, a son, a nice home, I get paid to go to school(Scholarships), and I'm only 20 years old.
What more could I really ask for? Well there is money, but people shouldn't go to God for that anyways.

Also my father-in-law said something once that I wanted to get a christian rebuttal too. Not that I want to rebutt(ha rebutt? not sure if its a word) him, I wanted it for myself. He said:

If God loves you more than you could ever love anything. Tell me, would you send your own children to hell? Even if they were bad kids, you still wouldn't be able to stand them suffering.

edit: or something like that I'm not good with getting my thoughts on paper...um screen....I guess

[hulkster]

well i plan on paddling my kids when they screw up.  if they kept screwing up, id keep paddling them until they quit.  unfortunately we do it every day, and if we dont accept the fact that He sent His son to die for us to relinquish that, its like me telling my kids "if you obey me, i'll quit paddling you" and then they just say "screw you, ill do what i want". 

like i said, theres consequences to everything we do.  i consider life a gift or a privelege given to me by my Heavenly Father, and all he wants in return for His blessing is to do what I'm told.  such is true in many walks of life.

[clanggedin]

God gave us our free agency to choose right from wrong, That's somethng that Satan (Lucifer) didn't want us to have. His plan was for everything to be done his way and he gets the glory, whereas Christ's plan was let everyone choose and give the glory to the father.

It's not that God doesn't love us enough that he would send us to Hell. He loves us enough to ley us make our own decisions. If you do what he asks you get blessings, if you don't you get hell or whatever the consequences are.

I don't believe that Hell or Purgatory is a permanent ending for those who do bad. I believe in eternal progression. I just may take an eternity for some people to change their ways and be allowed to live with God. Those who do good on earth get the benefits of living with him sooner and gaining his knowledge.

It's like sending my son to his room for disobedience. Depending on which rule he broke determines how long he stays in his room. He gets to leave his room eventually and be with me again.

[Dexter]

What is the most christian, to live a peaceful life being good to others but not believing the bible to be the literal word of God, or to believe everything in the bible happened exactly as it is written and still kill in Gods name?

Is it more Christian to believe everything in the bible happened exactly as it is written and live a peaceful life being good to others, or to not believe the bible and kill for money and power?

Is it more Christian to go to the gym, or go to the store?

Is it more Christian to wear white socks, or to eat cheese?

Is it more Christian to make up silly "this or that" questions thinking people are stupid enough to believe they have to fall into one category or the other, or to belittle people who make silly posts?

The Lord loves me.

[Mameotron]

Dexter, I must have a different bible than you.

[shmokes]

God gave us our free agency to choose right from wrong, That's somethng that Satan (Lucifer) didn't want us to have. His plan was for everything to be done his way and he gets the glory, whereas Christ's plan was let everyone choose and give the glory to the father.

Okay...now I'm no religious scholar or anything, but this just doesn't  add up to me.  Let me see if I can lay this out.

1- Satan says, "Okay, God, check this out.  See all these angels here that you want to send to earth.  Well...you love them and all, and want them all back here so how's this.  I'll go down there and bust ass and keep those suckers in line.  Under my watch nobody will so much as forget to wipe.  In return I want you to tell everybody I'm the bomb.

2- Jesus goes to him and says, "Screw that, God.  Why not just sedn them down there and let them do whatever they want.  They'll screw up and will no longer be worthy of your presence, so I'll go down and bleed through my pores which won't wipe away all of their sins, but just enough that the really good ones will be able to squeek by into Heaven, but the really bad ones will still end up in Hell.  BUT......You can take all the credit.

3- So God, of course, takes Jesus' side and Satan gets pissed and starts a war and 1/3 of the people in heaven are like, "um....we actually think Satan's got a point. here.  So they all get cast out and Satan goes down and sits on people's shoulders whipering naughty things in their ears (mostly stuff about sex and naked women in my case).

Okay...so here's where I get hazy.  As I understand it our homeboy Jesus is planning to make a second (technically third) appearance where Satan is going to get chained up and thrown in a closet for a thousand years.  Apparently without Satan sitting on our shoulders there will be ABSOLUTELY NO SIN. 

Now...I know that there are a bunch of different sects of Christianity, but I'm pretty sure this is the stuff Clanggedin is talking about.

Okay....so.....tell me this.  Why, if without Satan there would be ABSOLUTELY NO SIN, would Satan go to God and suggest that he go down and FORCE us to be good?  Why would he need to force us to be good if we would be good without his help?

Or, Why, would Jesus go down and say that he will die for all our sins, if there wouldn't have been any sins to die for without Satan.

Both Lucifer's and Jesus' plans make absolutely no sense without Lucifer turning bad and inventing temptation.  At the time that they came up with their plans they (supposedly) didn't know that Lucifer was going to turn into Satan.  Yet their plans completely depend on evil satan's existence EVEN TO MAKE ANY SENSE.  In a world that makes sense God would be like, "Jesus, Lucifer.....what in THE Hell are you talking about?  Sin?  Do y'all know something I don't?  Why should we be planning for sin?"

I think it's abundantly clear that the three of them, God, Satan and Jesus, are just playing us?  That they got together beforehand and planned this whole thing out -- right down to the war in Heaven?  I'm afraid I'm going to get up to heaven and Jesus is going to be standing at the gates saying, "PUNK'D YA!!!"

[Bones]

Attacking the church is easy, you can pick up any text book and learn how the church has failed the great minds like Copernicus or Galileo, men who tested via experiment to find the truth about what the world presented them. Men that were punished when their discoveries went against gospel writings.

Evolution can be proven as fiction, any scientific theory can. Scientific theories are constantly being torn down and re-written if they fail experiment in the real world. There should be no emotion in such a decision to completely abandon a theory if it fails. This is the pursuit of physical truth and it is not subject to interpretation, opinion or love. It either works, or it does not. This way of thinking has made it possible to build computers and rocket ships and skyscrapers.

Christianity on the other had can not be disproved or confirmed. As has been mentioned here, it relies on nothing but faith. A person with faith will tell you that they do not need any evidence, they know in their heart how they feel.

I can think of nothing more comforting than truly believing in my heart that there is a creator and he is looking out for me. I also admire that many intelligent people can feel all warm and fuzzy after they speak with god. This is a feeling an atheist (me) will never have or understand. I can also appreciate the endless enthusiasm that a good Christian has and their desire to influence others hoping that they will feel the same way.

We are all unique and the result of our own life experiences, influences and struggles. I think the only important thing is to be true to yourself. We all know what is right and wrong and therefore it shouldn

[DrewKaree]

Attacking the church is easy, you can pick up any text book and learn how the church has failed the great minds like Copernicus or Galileo, men who tested via experiment to find the truth about what the world presented them. Men that were punished when their discoveries went against gospel writings.

Evolution can be proven as fiction, any scientific theory can. Scientific theories are constantly being torn down and re-written if they fail experiment in the real world. There should be no emotion in such a decision to completely abandon a theory if it fails. This is the pursuit of physical truth and it is not subject to interpretation, opinion or love. It either works, or it does not. This way of thinking has made it possible to build computers and rocket ships and skyscrapers.

Christianity on the other had can not be disproved or confirmed. As has been mentioned here, it relies on nothing but faith. A person with faith will tell you that they do not need any evidence, they know in their heart how they feel.

I can think of nothing more comforting than truly believing in my heart that there is a creator and he is looking out for me. I also admire that many intelligent people can feel all warm and fuzzy after they speak with god. This is a feeling an atheist (me) will never have or understand. I can also appreciate the endless enthusiasm that a good Christian has and their desire to influence others hoping that they will feel the same way.

We are all unique and the result of our own life experiences, influences and struggles. I think the only important thing is to be true to yourself. We all know what is right and wrong and therefore it shouldn

[shmokes]

  I can also appreciate the endless enthusiasm that a good Christian has and their desire to influence others hoping that they will feel the same way.

Uhgg....It's that endless enthusiasm to influence others that make so many of the god people so dangerous (9/11 comes to mind).  And the speaking to god business?  Once again, She's always telling them to do the dumbest things (9/11 comes to mind).  For instance, She told my mom in a dream (a.k.a. a vision by religious wackos) that she should join Amway.

[hulkster]

Attacking the church is easy, you can pick up any text book and learn how the church has failed the great minds like Copernicus or Galileo, men who tested via experiment to find the truth about what the world presented them. Men that were punished when their discoveries went against gospel writings.

Evolution can be proven as fiction, any scientific theory can. Scientific theories are constantly being torn down and re-written if they fail experiment in the real world. There should be no emotion in such a decision to completely abandon a theory if it fails. This is the pursuit of physical truth and it is not subject to interpretation, opinion or love. It either works, or it does not. This way of thinking has made it possible to build computers and rocket ships and skyscrapers.

Christianity on the other had can not be disproved or confirmed. As has been mentioned here, it relies on nothing but faith. A person with faith will tell you that they do not need any evidence, they know in their heart how they feel.

I can think of nothing more comforting than truly believing in my heart that there is a creator and he is looking out for me. I also admire that many intelligent people can feel all warm and fuzzy after they speak with god. This is a feeling an atheist (me) will never have or understand. I can also appreciate the endless enthusiasm that a good Christian has and their desire to influence others hoping that they will feel the same way.

We are all unique and the result of our own life experiences, influences and struggles. I think the only important thing is to be true to yourself. We all know what is right and wrong and therefore it shouldn

[Grasshopper]

I can assure you that I feel no bitterness towards christians. In fact, by and large, I think modern christianity is a relatively benign religion.

I simply find it interesting to debate these issues.

[hulkster]

I can assure you that I feel no bitterness towards christians. In fact, by and large, I think modern christianity is a relatively benign religion.

I simply find it interesting to debate these issues.

i wish everyone had your self control in debate.  its much easier to talk intelligently about a subject like this when people are humble.

[rchadd]

Natural disasters such as recent tidal wave in asia are frequently called "Acts of God"

Is the killing of 70k+ innocent people the act of a loving God?

how the hell do religious types explain this?

oh right he's probably "testing/punishing" us again....

[Sephroth57]

/e confused


im still hung up on the whole is it real thing.. theres no way to really find out. I dont think reading a book is going to change me...

If there is a god, why does he not give us any signs? Assuming the bible is real, back then there were all these crazy things like moses parting the sea, jesus working miracles and rising from the dead. That would pretty much convince me if i saw these things, but nowadays its just writing from thousands of years ago, who knows how many times it was rewritten, sections changed, maybe by now its totally exaggerated..

I just dont know how im supposed to "know"

[thrash242]

hmmm, true in a sense. but when there is abundant evidence of one and a notable lack of evidence of the other, well...

depends on what you say is evidence.  to me the Bible is all I need for evidence, and then the rest of the Earth and the love of Jesus in my heart (i know its corny, but its true) then thats all the "evidence" i need. 

So if you were born in ancient Egpyt, or ancient Babylon, or in a country where everyone says that Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is the word of God, then you'd probably believe just as strongly (through faith) in a completely different god or gods.  See how arbitrary it is?  Faith is a belief without any evidence, by definition.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want due to how/where/when you were raised, but it seems pretty silly to me.

[Sephroth57]

also another thing i thought of. What if the bible somehow died out, and there were no written word of god. how would we even know anything about him? Also say youre born in Iraq, and youre raised to know allah as god and that is what youre taught from youth and you believe it, does that make you wrong and you go to hell?

[Rocky]

StephRoth57,

I'd like to tell you my understanding of Jesus and Christianity. I'm an ordained minister with a Master of Divinity (which really just means I've studied and read a whole lot!).

[Gunstar Hero]

Hmmmmmmmm....

I like The Hitchhikers Guide.... 

[thrash242]

The bible is widely accepeted as factual too.

There's no comparison.  One is accepted as factual due to years of physical evidence supporting it.  The other is accepted as factual due to parents, ministers, etc tell you that "This is the word of God(TM).  You must do what it says or you'll go to Hell(TM).  Why?  Because it says so.  No, you're not allowed to question it, you must simply believe me...I mean the Bible.  It's called faith."

Evolution can't be proven or disproven, just like God.

Nothing except that which is arrived at through one's own logic can be proven for sure.  But evidence can lead one (or many) to believe that it's very likely that something exists or is true or the opposite, that it's very unlikely that something is true or exists.

I can't prove that a god exists or not any more than I can prove that leprechauns exist or not.  I can prove that, given common conceptions about the nature of reality, it's very unlikely that they exist, but that is not proof.  For that matter, I can't technically prove that I live on a ball of various elements hurtling through space or that anyone or anything other than my own mind exists, but I tend to believe those things anyway.  I haven't, however, seen any "god" or any evidence to believe that one exists.

I personally question everything and reject those things that I cannot support through my own logic or through physical evidence which supports it.  I simply don't have time for fairy tales.

Until death. 

I doubt that anything will proven at death except that the person who has just died no longer exists as we know it.

I hope your faith in "science" can free your soul from Hell.

I hope your faith in "God" can let you escape nonexistence after death by flying away to some magical paradise in the sky.  I admit it's a nice idea, but I see no reason to believe it.

[thrash242]

Natural disasters such as recent tidal wave in asia are frequently called "Acts of God"

Is the killing of 70k+ innocent people the act of a loving God?

how the hell do religious types explain this?

oh right he's probably "testing/punishing" us again....

It's all part of his Divine Plan(TM).    Of course, I think that most of the people killed were not Christians, and I've heard that many were Mohammedans.  So maybe the Christian God (remember, the only one and he wants you to know it) is punishing them for not worshipping him or worshipping him differently from what he wants (depending on whether or not you think they're the same one).

Of course it could just as easily be explained through plate tectonics, which is the explanation I tend to believe.

[SeaMonkey]

Uhgg....It's that endless enthusiasm to influence others that make so many of the god people so dangerous (9/11 comes to mind).

[thrash242]

I've said some cynical things toward religion lately and I'd like to clarify my position.

I'm an atheist.  This means that I do not believe in a god or gods.

I can assure you that I'm a very ethical and "moral" (I tend to avoid this word, as to me, it implies religion, but I will anyway) person.  I dont steal, I don't commit violent acts against people, or even other animals.  I don't even pirate software or music or movies.  I don't engage in casual sex, and the only drugs I do are alcohol and caffeine, both in moderation.  I try to be a kind and respectful person in general.  I know many Christians that don't abide by as strict a code of behavior as my own personal one.  You might wonder why I don't behave however feels best and not care about ethical behavior.  Well, the answer is quite complicated, but it comes from my own philosophy, not from hoping for a reward after I die.

To me, there are two kinds of atheists: those who, through logic and philosophical thought have decided that they don't believe in a god, but are otherwise normal, well adjusted decent people, and those that just don't want to feel the guilt of doing whatever they feel like, and thus reject religion, since it is a cause of guilt.  The latter often come back to religion after a number of years and find something in it to help get their lives straight, whereas the former are quite secure and happy not believing in a god.

I have no problem with people believing in anything they want as long as they don't try to push their beliefs on me.  Many Christians have a problem with this, but apart from them, I hold no grudges against Christianity or its followers.  That's what's great about modern civilized countries: you can believe whatever you like as long as you let others do the same.

And for the record, I was raised Christian and went along with that for quite a few years, although I never really believed deep down (kind of like Santa Claus...I figured out for myself that he was make believe at a young age).  I learned about several different religions as a teenager, including non-mainstream stuff like Wicca and Satanism, but after much long thought, decided that I didn't believe in any of it and that I was fine with that.  I don't need to believe that some father figure is watching out for me and making sure I behave.

So in short, I don't want any hard feelings from disagreements about religious beliefs or lack thereof.  All of us here share a interest (arcade controls) and hopefully we can all get along and keep disagreements here where they belong.

Ok, there's my public service announcement for the day. 

[thrash242]

Uhgg....It's that endless enthusiasm to influence others that make so many of the god people so dangerous (9/11 comes to mind).  And the speaking to god business? 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
**breath**
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, how many of us asked ourselves "Dear lord...why would the Amish do this?" when planes started falling from the sky?

Or how about this one: "This MUST be the Quakers!"

Oh my sides.

Sorry man, you jumped the shark on this one. Everyone knew who did this, from the moment it happened. Not just any group with a mono-theistic outlook fit the bill for this one. Nobody was confused for a second about that, except for the French. Are you French by the way?

What you say is basically true.  But keep in mind that in the middle ages, Christianity was about as violent, horrible and intolerant as Mohammedanism is today.  The difference is that Christianity has reformed and moved into the modern age for the most part, whereas the latter religion largely has not.  This is why Islam is stuck in about the 10th century.  I realize that that's not a "politically correct" thing to say, but I think it's true.  Treating women the way they do, beheading, and cutting off of hands is the not the behavior of a civilized culture/religion.

What is ironic is that the East (including the Middle East) was at one time more culturally and scientifically advanced than the West, at the time when Europe was bogged down in superstition and religion (the Dark Ages) at the expense of advancement.  Now the situation is reversed, IMO.

My point is that it's not unthinkable for Christians to engage in killing, maiming, and torture, but I commend modern Christianity in general for being much more civilized and open minded these days than it used to be.

I think the point that original poster was making was that any religion or ideology taken to an extreme can be dangerous.  Your snide retort doesn't really address that point, which I find to be true.

[thrash242]

also another thing i thought of. What if the bible somehow died out, and there were no written word of god. how would we even know anything about him? Also say youre born in Iraq, and youre raised to know allah as god and that is what youre taught from youth and you believe it, does that make you wrong and you go to hell?

The same thing would happen to Christianity that happened to Ancient Babylonian, Egyptian, Roman, or Greek religion.  It might be remembered by some as a curious system of mythology, but it would be abandonded as a religion, most likely.  And to think that people then believed just as strongly as people today do in their religions.  Makes you wonder how anyone can be sure that their religion is right, doesn't it?

That's part of the reason why I just don't bother with the whole thing.

[DrewKaree]

The other is accepted as factual due to parents, ministers, etc tell you that "This is the word of God(TM).  You must do what it says or you'll go to Hell(TM).  Why?  Because it says so.  No, you're not allowed to question it, you must simply believe me...I mean the Bible.  It's called faith."

It's amazing the things generalizations you make about something you can't possibly comprehend, person by person.  You sound like the "nutjob" standing on the corner with a bullhorn telling us all the end of the world is coming tomorrow.  What "church" did you go to that told you that you're not allowed to question what you believe, the Bible, or your faith? 

That you wish to paint Christianity as a group of simpletons serves no purpose other than to inflate your own ego.  Your own personal experiences may have been as you described, but you show your foolishness in saying "we just believe because we're supposed to". 

I hope your faith in "science" can free your soul from Hell.

I hope your faith in "God" can let you escape nonexistence after death by flying away to some magical paradise in the sky.  I admit it's a nice idea, but I see no reason to believe it.

Seems if you though there was no reason to believe that "nice idea", you wouldn't come off as so bitter that someone might believe in that "fairy tale" you speak of.

For that matter, I have a hard time figuring out why ANYONE who doesn't believe in Christ would show such vitriol towards those who do.  If you're correct, and I'm wrong, my eternal happiness simply won't be.  Are you so incensed because you won't be able to get in that final "I told you so!"

Because I profess a belief in Christ as my Lord and Savior, I'm branded a gay-hating intolerant bigot who'd gladly cover up sexual abuse of children in order to shove my views down the world's throat. 

And I'm the one who's called intolerant

I may be intolerant because of my POLITICAL views, in your mind, but my religious views are anything BUT intolerant, and for you to lump me in as some robotic fool is blatant hypocrisy on your part. 

[sasuke_kun12]

here you guys go.

john 3:16
for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and who ever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

hope that answers some of your questions!

oopz forgot something.
ok lets start at the beginning. Before the world was made lucifer (satan) was the top angel. but one day he said "hey i wanna be better than God!" so what did he do? he seperated and got some angels on his side. there we go, so then we have heaven and hell. Now God created the world in 7 days. he created man on the 6th and rested on the 7th hence sunday when us christians and catholics go to church. Ok now here comes Adam. God created eve from Adam's rib and named the new creation "women" which means from the man (or something.). ok since God made women from Adam means that women shouldn't be treated like dirt. they should be treated equally to men. ok now this is where satan comes in. Now God made a tree with forbidden friut, which, if consumed, would give you knowledge, and all that stuff. now satan in, in a snakes form decieved eve and made her take a bite out of the friut and convinced adam to take a bit. When God walked through the garden of eden, he called out to adam and eve, and when they heard him, adam and eve found that they were naked and were ashamed so they hide behind a bushel. when God found them he said "why are you hiding from me?" adam (or eve i forgot wait wheres my bible?) said "we saw you coming so we hid behind a bush because we were naked." God got angry so he slaughtered an animal and made clothing for adam and eve and kicked them out of the garden. this is the first sin or if you wish, when sin first came to the earth. When they were kicked out god said that adam will work for the land and will support the family and eve when you bear a child you will go through labour and pain. ok so that's the start. now lets skip 2000 years and talk about jesus.
before jesus came, people had to sacrifice animals to God so they get rid of there wrong doings. but when jesus died on the cross, we didn't need to sacrifice animals coz he did it for us. so all we have to do is say a prayer and our sins are forgiven. ok that's all i've got to say but let me add one more thing. to the guy who started this topic (and for anyone else in fact who hasn't accepted christ as there savior). have you ever looked for something that will make you happy? like when you finaly made you cab and you play for a while but then you feel this deep hole in your heart? have you done everything you could to fill it? well if your lookin for that thing to fill the hole then jesus will. he will come into your life and fill that hole of yours. i bet right now that you feel this tugging feeling. believe it or not that is jesus calling. he telling you to come home. all it take is one prayer

if you do want to know more then pm me!

[SeaMonkey]

Your snide retort doesn't really address that point, which I find to be true.

He calls people of faith "god people" then calls them dangerous. General judgements of a group of people, I think is biggotry.
Just because Hitler "played" with young boys is no reason for ME to say, "Well the problem is those dangerous bi-sexuals"

Hate is hate. Don't enable it.

Although I am ashamed I called somebody "French" with so little provocation.

also another thing i thought of. What if the bible somehow died out

It happened once. When the Jews were taken by Babylon and the Temple was sacked, they were away from their lands and the faith was dead for 70 years.

[danny_galaga]

hmmm, true in a sense. but when there is abundant evidence of one and a notable lack of evidence of the other, well...

depends on what you say is evidence.

[DrewKaree]

A scientologist?  You are going to HADES! 

I like that though process there.

[danny_galaga]

If you seek to find answers to your questions in other places this should also be respected as it really doesn

[thrash242]

It's amazing the things generalizations you make about something you can't possibly comprehend, person by person.  You sound like the "nutjob" standing on the corner with a bullhorn telling us all the end of the world is coming tomorrow.  What "church" did you go to that told you that you're not allowed to question what you believe, the Bible, or your faith? 

That you wish to paint Christianity as a group of simpletons serves no purpose other than to inflate your own ego.  Your own personal experiences may have been as you described, but you show your foolishness in saying "we just believe because we're supposed to". 

Ok, now you're putting words in my mouth.  My point is that faith is belief without evidence or logical basis.  If you disagree with this definition, I'd like to hear what yours is.  I've heard many religious individuals use the same definition, or a very similar one.

Your reply wasn't about my point, but was about your assumption that I think Christians are all simpletons.  The original poster said that the Bible is accepted as fact, trying to imply that it's just as accepted as fact as plate tectonics or something.  I replied with my belief that such a comparison is quite silly.

I'm pretty sure that if you weren't raised Christian and were just born in some society with no religion, or another religion, you wouldn't magically have faith in the Christian god.  My point is that we get these ideas from others.  Unless you have had or believe you have had some magical reveleation from god personally (or perhaps an angel), then you're basically believing what you've heard and read.  That's all I'm saying.  I never said that you or anyone else is a simpleton or deserved scorn.

Seems if you though there was no reason to believe that "nice idea", you wouldn't come off as so bitter that someone might believe in that "fairy tale" you speak of.

I was replying sarcastically to what I percieved as a rather caustic and unneccesary remark.  The original poster seemed to be flaunting his self-righteousness that he knew that he, being Christian would go to heaven, while me, being a lowly heathen was condemned to hell.  That is why I may have sounded bitter.

Because I profess a belief in Christ as my Lord and Savior, I'm branded a gay-hating intolerant bigot who'd gladly cover up sexual abuse of children in order to shove my views down the world's throat. 

Thanks for implying that I said something that I didn't even *hint* at, much less say.  Try to reply to my actual points rather than spouting knee-jerk talk.

I may be intolerant because of my POLITICAL views, in your mind, but my religious views are anything BUT intolerant, and for you to lump me in as some robotic fool is blatant hypocrisy on your part. 

When did I say that you were intolerant?  I never did.  And while it probably makes your ego feel good to imagine me as some sniveling liberal who thinks that anyone to the right of socialism is either an ignorant redneck or a fascist, I'm actually a right-leaning libertarian, so I probably agree with you or more political issues than not.  In fact, the main reason I wouldn't classify myself as a conservative is my lack of religion.  Now who's the one making generalizations?

I know many Christians think they're being persecuted by modern (and increasingly liberal) society, and in some ways, you may be right, but I'm not part of that group doing the persecuting.  Your knee-jerk reaction ignored my main points.  I was replying to a post that I thought sounded quite self-righteous and that I resented, so I replied less kindly than I normally might, that's all.  More importantly, I replied directly to his points, which you did not.

Now please stop shoving your misconceptions about atheists onto me.  Thanks.

[DrewKaree]

Ok, now you're putting words in my mouth.  My point is that faith is belief without evidence or logical basis.  If you disagree with this definition, I'd like to hear what yours is.  I've heard many religious individuals use the same definition, or a very similar one.

Your reply wasn't about my point, but was about your assumption that I think Christians are all simpletons....The original poster said that the Bible is accepted as fact, trying to imply that it's just as accepted as fact as plate tectonics or something.  I replied with my belief that such a comparison is quite silly.

As you state, it's your belief  that the comparison is silly.  Are your beliefs somehow more valid than Dartful's?  Many disagree with you, and indeed accept the Bible as factual. Scholars have dedicated their lives to it.  I'm sure they'd find your comparisons and subsequent dismissal as silly.  By assuming that Dartful was trying to imply something, are you not guilty of putting words in HIS mouth? 

That which you charge me of seems to be something you've done in your mind several times in replying to others.  I'm hard pressed to see why it's wrong of me to do so based on your words, but you are somehow qualified to do just that.  Conversely, why is it you can see clearly what he "meant to say", but can't understand where I would come up with my assumption?

My point is that we get these ideas from others.  Unless you have had or believe you have had some magical reveleation from god personally (or perhaps an angel), then you're basically believing what you've heard and read.  That's all I'm saying.  I never said that you or anyone else is a simpleton or deserved scorn.

I call BS.  Your statement is that we are told these things are fact from those people, and that we are told "No, you're not allowed to question it, you must simply believe me...I mean the Bible" 

You speak of Christians being TOLD to believe in what someone says and that we're not allowed to question it, because "that's what faith is".

Sir, if you think that ISN'T painting someone as a simpleton, you may wish at the very least to investigate the definition of a simpleton, at best, to rethink your phrasing.  Your perception doesn't match up to your words, IMO.

I was replying sarcastically to what I percieved as a rather caustic and unneccesary remark.  The original poster seemed to be flaunting his self-righteousness that he knew that he, being Christian would go to heaven, while me, being a lowly heathen was condemned to hell.  That is why I may have sounded bitter.

Again you speak of what you are assuming.  I have no problem telling you I'm making an assumption based on your words.  You, however, seem surprised that I'd do that which you have done several times.  I'm well aware of the assumptions that are made about me because I profess a belief in Christ, which is why I stated them later in my post, but I speak knowing what those assumptions are, and try to be mindful of them when speaking to people.  It seems as if you are surprised that someone could take your words as anything other than a simple statement of facts (as you believe them).  I'm telling you otherwise.

Because I profess a belief in Christ as my Lord and Savior, I'm branded a gay-hating intolerant bigot who'd gladly cover up sexual abuse of children in order to shove my views down the world's throat.

Thanks for implying that I said something that I didn't even *hint* at, much less say.  Try to reply to my actual points rather than spouting knee-jerk talk.

I kindly ask you to go back and re-read my post.  From the paragraph prior to the point you quoted above, to the conclusion of my post, while the use of the word "you" is used, the generalization of how I am percieved is what is spoken of.  I was not speaking of what you had said, rather commenting on how the world at large views Christians.  Prior to the statement you quote me as attributing to you, I speak of not understanding why anyone - meaning those who do the things I charge - would do such things. 

To address the comments you've made after the point addressed above serves neither of us, as your comments are on something I hadn't made clear, and would only serve to provoke bitterness between us based upon a gross error.

That you took them in something other than the manner in which I intended them is probably due to the fact that I was less than nice in responding to my assumptions of your assumptions of my assumptions of your assumptions of.......

[paigeoliver]

Also say youre born in Iraq, and youre raised to know allah as god and that is what youre taught from youth and you believe it, does that make you wrong and you go to hell?

Short answer.

YES.

Long answer.

Sinful behavior has consequences, and those consequences almost always go beyond the sinner.

If I steal from you I have sinned, and YOU have lost something.

If I covet your wife, I have sinned, and it will strain our relationship and my relationship with my own mate if I have one, even if you never know about it.

If I kill you, you die. Your family suffers, and there are children who might never even be sired because of it.

If I spread a false religion, to others who teah their children, who teach their children, then MILLIONS can suffer for it.

But, with that said. Apparently (and I don't know all the theology and references behind this belief), someone who is never told the truth that Jesus died for their sins, and took their place. Well, you don't expect God to hold someone to a standard they never heard of, do you?

Onto sufferings. There is lots of suffering. Always has been, it is part of living in a sinful world. Read Genesis, it didn't always used to be that way.

As for Christians being simpletons or idiots. Hee hee. Think whatever you like. We are (as a group) probably far more educated than non-christians. Very few people in my social circle lack degrees, one has a doctorate, and another just passed the bar exam. Last year 100 percent of the children at my church who graduated high school went on to college at a 4 year school. The year before all of them went save one, who stayed home at a local school, and will now be leaving for a 4-year school next week.

[Dexter]

Dexter, I must have a different bible than you.

[danny_galaga]

Also say youre born in Iraq, and youre raised to know allah as god and that is what youre taught from youth and you believe it, does that make you wrong and you go to hell?

Short answer.

YES.

short question: shouldn't you be in Iraq then to spread the word? isn't that the duty of every christian?

[paigeoliver]

Also say youre born in Iraq, and youre raised to know allah as god and that is what youre taught from youth and you believe it, does that make you wrong and you go to hell?

Short answer.

YES.

short question: shouldn't you be in Iraq then to spread the word? isn't that the duty of every christian?

You go where you are called. You do what God tells you to do.

I wish God HAD given me some big mission like that, because then I would be married to Sarah right now, selfish, but true.

[danny_galaga]

how will you know? i thought it was automatically your responsibility to spread the word?