Legalities of making money from MAME??

[stellarola]

Hey ya'll. I was looking to put my mame cabinet in a comic book shop or something. Well I was just wondering the legalities of making money off the cab. Im thinking of only having about 8 games to play. The thing is, can I just buy the game boards off ebay, so I basically own the game, its just not in the cabinet. Some of you are thinking why dont you just buy a jamma harness and hookup these games, well I just think it would be easier to do it using a front end. So my question is, is it legal to make money off of my mame cab if I own the actual game boards?


Thanks ya'll

-Ben

[Rocky]

no

[SirPeale]

No.

[Shape D.]

NO!

[JoyMonkey]

Nope.

[nostrebor]

Umm... NO.

[Jabba]

Nein!

[mmmPeanutButter]

Yes!!




I mean, NO!

[stellarola]

holy crap. And how are you sure?

[DaemonCollector]

II. Cost
--------
   MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.

from mame.net

[Mameotron]

Here is a really good discussion of the whole legal issues of Roms in the first place.

[dabone]

I thought if you own the actual board then you have the right to run it.
Now say I bought a Donkey kong board, and fixed a cab up to run it,
do you consider that legal to run?

Now say I bought the same board but instead of hooking up the actual game board to the controls, I used an emulator to run it. The game board still belongs to me, and is still residing in the cab running the copy of the roms off of it.
How is this different than people saying that it is legal to use roms that you own in your home.

If someone said that you don't have the legal right to run donkey kong, you would just have to show them the original board that resides in the same cab as the emulator.

Just my thoughts, some one please explain why they are wrong.
(But please do it in a non emulator specific way.. i.e. Mame vs sparcade vs, etc..)


Later,
dabone

[Mameotron]

OK, this is what Howard_Casto says about it.

[Thenasty]

How do you feel about it if it was your HARD WORK and someone else making money out of it ? We did not even touch the legality issue there.

Here is a good example that something you buy and use it to make money.
Buy a MOVIE in DVD or VHS (you bought it) and still you can't make money from it having your own little movie house in the corner of your book store.


Bottom line is, sure anyone can do it, but if the time comes that you get caught, just hope you made enough money from it to cover for the expenses and hope you are not gonna be someones B!CTH in the BIG HOUSE.

Bottom line again, its not worth it.

[paigeoliver]

People is often wrong about things.

You don't have to reverse engineer SQUAT to get most rom images. Most of them can simply be read in an EPROM reader. The eprom is merely a form of media.  EPROMS are not read nor copy protected. A very small percentage of them are encrypted, which are the only ones the bit about reverse engineering would even apply to.

Also, IIRC the DMCA was revised to exclude obsolete computer systems and gaming consoles, so that doesn't even APPLY to anything other than a tiny handful of arcade systems that are still sold/supported my their manufacturers.

Also, getting off these boards and the constant rom hippocracy here and talking to REAL operators, here is their take on it.

Their take is. DON'T BOTHER, people will constantly put money in the machine while it is on the menu screen and then want refunds or beat on the machine. Doesn't matter how clear of a sign or instructions you put in place, people will STILL stick money in it on the menu screen.

Now there IS still a use for mame on location, and that is running a single game. It is cheaper and more reliable to put a computer in a Pole Position than it is to repair the original boards constantly. Same thing about many other games.

If you REALLY want to operate a Multi-Game then look into getting a JAMMA Multi-WIlliams, I have one and it is sweet.

I also think Mike Doyle's 96 in 1 Multi-Pac is in Pac-Mame. That wouldn't do too bad on location.

Really though, my BEST suggestion for location action is this. Get a JAMMA cabinet with a nice size screen and start out with some sort of late model JAP Jamma game. Puzzle games are good choices (like Uo Poko, Puzzle De Bowling, or Magical Tetris). Operate it until you have taken in enough money to buy a second board. Then put the second board in it and take the first one out for a while. After that earns enough money for a 3rd board then buy a 3rd one, and then rotate them whenever you come to collect the money.

If the location is an earner you can keep the game their eternally, swapping the boards every time you collect, perhaps adding a new board to the mix every great while.

If the location is a REAL earner then you could think about putting in a second game (even 2 JAMMA games is a cheaper investment than one mame cab).

Playchoice 10 is a good nostalgia choice. I haven't seen one on location in years, but I am betting they would do "ok" again now.

[paigeoliver]

Here is a good example that something you buy and use it to make money.
Buy a MOVIE in DVD or VHS (you bought it) and still you can't make money from it having your own little movie house in the corner of your book store.

But you can open a video store and rent it out. How is that different? 

[D_Zoot]

Consider this:

The DMCA point is moot, copyright still applies, even tho it's true most of the copyright holders aren't enforcing their rights.  They tend to ignore us as hobby/home users.  But ask those that were distributing roms for free on the net how the copyright holders really feel about it.

The copyright laws in the US allow you to have one backup copy of a given work for your own personal use.

[Thenasty]

You know what I mean. If you want to dish out 80-100 grand to start a video store, and have a license for it, then all the legalities are taking care off. But in this case, we are talking about things that you don't have a right to do (but you can do it anyway) nor a license to do it or approval to do it.

Best best for him just spend around 5k and get one of the Ultracade system (conmes with 80 games I think) then, I guess you still need to get a license to operate it in your bookstore.

[D_Zoot]

Here is a good example that something you buy and use it to make money.
Buy a MOVIE in DVD or VHS (you bought it) and still you can't make money from it having your own little movie house in the corner of your book store.

But you can open a video store and rent it out. How is that different?

[RayB]

I'd like to throw a couple more wrenches into the works here folks.....

Back in the day, didn't operators often HAVE to burn new EPROMS because the manufacturer corrected bugs or tweaked gameplay balance and put out new ROM images? Just look at all the revisions to some Midway games for example. Operators didn't buy new board after new board. They replaced the EPROMS. So the idea of burning game board data isn't new or exclusive to emulation.

Second point, to Stellarola (Stellaroni? I forget...) is that most local government (state or city) regulate coin operated amusement devices. So you'd have to get a permit or a tax sticker or something like that to even be able to put it on location. (Correct me if I'm wrong folks... That's the way it is here in most Canadian provinces).

Last thing I want to say is DMCA be damned. It's a ---smurfy--- over-reaching "law" that was designed for big corporations to screw us. Considering what I said above about operators burning Eproms even two decades ago, I don't see why it would suddenly be an issue...

~Ray B.

[paigeoliver]

Exactly, an EPROM is just a COMMON form of removable media. The average joe might not have the hardware to deal with them, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no reverse engineering required to read them. Only to decrypt a very small percentage of them.

And yes, operators often DID burn their own EPROMS for updates.

I have the original paperwork for many of my games. Nowhere is it expressed or even IMPLIED that the software on the EPROMS must be used on the board that came with the game. There are warnings against unauthorized bootlegging, but having a copy of your own software is not unauthorized bootlegging.

If both sides had equal lawyers it would be almost impossible for the game companies to win the suit against someone with the computer and original Donkey Kong board inside a cabinet. Matter of fact, you can make it amost IMPOSSIBLE for them to have a leg to stand on simply by doing 2 things. Removing all the EPROMS from the board, and sticking them in an enveloped labeled "BACKUP". Then run your video ground to the boardset of the game and THEN to the monitor. So the game stops working if you pull the boardset. Now you have effectively done a very esoteric repair to the original boardset. Feel free to make it even more complicated if you like.

Wow, sounds like a stupid esoteric solution, doesn't it. So are the idiot laws about this stuff.

[Mameotron]

Well, D_Zoot brings up a really good point.

[paigeoliver]

You do have to have a sticker on your games in many locales. I have a collection of them dating back to the 1960s.

There were no real licenses with the games back in the old days. It isn't like today. If you want to read exactly what you got with a game then go download the service manual. Add a 90 day warranty card and THAT is what you got.

Actually, most games had a service manual, warranty card, and the full schematics of the circuit board.

Back in the 70s, 80s and even early 90s they did not speak in the terms of licenses, not at all. They didn't put any usage restrictions at all down, and the first ones that were put down were country based ones (to date I don't think that has ever been prosecuted), mostly because the JAP conversion kits came out 12 months before the US ones and by the time the US ones were out the Jap operators were ready to dump their old boards for the new ones.

You can't go back in time and make things about modern "software" apply to mediums that were not sold with such restrictions.

[stellarola]

Wow. You all insipired me to put my cab in a comic book shop, THANKS 


HAHAHA....I dunno, we'll see. It looks like a real cab.

[D_Zoot]

You can't go back in time and make things about modern "software" apply to mediums that were not sold with such restrictions.

Remember, the root core of this discussion is the ROMS.

[paigeoliver]

The LLC that is ruining the formerly good Gottlieb name can certainly do that if they want to. I won't even argue it.

The core issue I am talking about is not Jimmy the ROM weasel who wants to put his 10,000 ROM mame cabinet on location. I am talking about James the game owner who actually OWNS the dedicated board. You can't go back in time and place a usage restriction on the software, thus there is no reason why he cannot run that software on other hardware.

Back to Gottlieb.

Yes, the idiot LLC owners of Gottlieb's stuff can try to milk the collectors of Gottlieb for money by selling them copies of software that they ALREADY BOUGHT in the first place. They can even do it legally.

But guess what? I can also legally replace the corrupt EPROM on my own Gottlieb pin, or a Gottlieb pin belonging to someone else by burning that exact same data onto an eprom and installing it.

I am actually so glad you brought up Gottlieb as it is a classic example of abuse of copyright. You CAN'T bootleg a pinball machine, Gottlieb's software has no value outside of the specific machine it is supposed to drive and every machine came with a copy of that software. So they are essentially charging full price for the software again to customers who already purchased it once (and got defective media too). Every other pinball machine company on the planet distributes these files for free. Gottlieb would too if they were still a company and not a name owned by a money grubbing idiot hell bent on destroying the collectability and memory of the Gottlieb line to make a tiny profit.

Gottlieb pins are almost entirely ignored by collectors now. You can't get the rom repair data for them easily. Hardly any parts are available since the LLC goes after anyone making repro parts, but making them under license would price them so high that there would be no market.

Now, back on roms.
It is legal to make your own circuit board to place the Gottlieb rom on to drive your pinball machine (and people have done so).
It is legal to replace the media that your Gottlieb rom is on with a new piece of media.
Hard to make an arguement that it is illegal to replace both the media and the hardware when you can replace either one, isn't it.

Guess what, you can even get rom cards for computers to read the original roms. I have an ISA rom card at home. It will hold like 8 roms. I could, if I wanted install that in my computer and let my computer read the actual rom chips. Or I could simply have the data on the hard drive.

The end result is no different.

[stellarola]

Paige, you are my demigod. 

I talked to a few different arcade shop owners about it. They said basically what you said dude.

[paigeoliver]

Having the rights still doesn't fix the core peopleware issue that most people will put the quarter in while the machine is on the game menu, or while the selected game is still booting up, thus they won't get to play and they will want refunds and your machine will get a bad rep.

There is still the issue of the mame license itself, but that is not a defendable license.

[stellarola]

Well I suppose one game at a time. Wont be too bad.

[Gunstar Hero]

Legal issues aside...

People doing home made arcade cabs on location will eventually destroy this hobby. Once Namco/Midway/SEGA ect. sees that there is money to be made they'll want their slice, crack down to protect their copyrights and that's that.

PLUS, the people who make MAME and the emulators and FEs and utilities we use feel very strongly that you should not be using their programs for commercial use in most cases, and you're doing them a grave disservice by doing so.

If you want a cab in your comic shop, go for it. But set it for free play or give out free tokens upon request and use it to spread the word of how great a hobby emulation can be.

[seibu]

Just get on ebay and buy some boards. Charging for MAME cabs on location will one day bring about the end of coin-op emulation, mark my words!

[paigeoliver]

Just get on ebay and buy some boards. Charging for MAME cabs on location will one day bring about the end of coin-op emulation, mark my words!

The horses have already escaped the barn. Coin op emulation is already 95 percent complete and there really aren't any new arcade games coming out anymore (ok, a teeny, tiny few games each year now, almost all of which are on PC hardware).

As near as I can tell we had a giagantic grand total of like 12 games released this year. All of which were rereleases or updates of existing franchises. Klov lists only 43 new games released in 2003, and most of those are incorrect entries listing games as old as 1997.

The industry is dead, dead, dead. There is really almost no new equipment coming out, and most of the existing equipment is emulated. Most of the arcade companies are already out of business, so it isn't even possible to cost them any money/business. When the Golden Tee franchise flounders iT will be dead (and I believe iT has done everything they can to speed their demise, setting it up where the operator has to buy a new $2500 kit EVERY YEAR and pay for a phone line for every machine, AND iT gets a cut of the profits now!!!). Sega could die any minute now, they have been fighting a losing battle for years.

As for the rest of the manufacturers? Forget it. They are all selling games that cost $5000, have trouble earning $200 a month, and are 4 or 5 years outdated before the crate is even opened.

It will really all be over in a few more years. But it is going to be over for them and not us. They'll all be out of business except maybe for Nintendo, who (last I checked) was running dead last out of 3 in the console wars. It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped all their lines except the Game Boy.

And I could really care less about any arcade game Nintendo ever produced. Donkey Kong might still be massively collectable, but it frankly aged very poorly. What else do they have? Playchoice? Hello, buy a NES cart. Killer Instinct? Bah, who cares. 

[Tiger-Heli]

I am talking about James the game owner who actually OWNS the dedicated board. You can't go back in time and place a usage restriction on the software . . .

Actually, to some extent you can.  A key point is we are talking about licensing, not ownership.

A few years ago, I downloaded a freeware add-on for Microsoft Train Simulator.  All the documentation with it said it was free to distribute.  Then the developer decided they wanted to charge for it and REVISED the license RETROACTIVELY.

I am pretty sure I can still transfer the program from one computer to another, and I'm sure I could E-mail the file to one or two people, and it wouldn't be worth their while to come after me, but I think I'd hear from their lawyers if I put the file on a website, even though the documentation I got with it says this is perfectly acceptable.

[paigeoliver]

People try the retroactive thing all the time. Has it ever held up in court? I don't see how it could. You can't sell or give something to someone and then afterwards try to tell them what they can do with it.

If the original file you downloaded says it is free and free to distribute then IT IS. The new non-free basically identical file might not be, but the old one is.

iDiOtFart over at mameroom.com tried pulling the same exact thing, he used to give his cabinet plans away for free, but now he wants $20+ for them. That doesn't make the old ones NOT FREE. I really don't think he would have a legal leg to stand on to be able to stop someone from distributing his old free "free for non-commercial use, distribute freely" version. Now I don't think people SHOULD do that, but only because his designs are ugly, needlessly complex and come out looking like they let the late 80s Atari designers design a 1998 era cabinet and then made it uglier.

[nostrebor]

II. Cost
--------

[Sephroth57]

yeah basicly its illegal, but really whos gonna know. have you ever seen a "arcade machine inspector"? are the arcade cops gonna come get you? =p

basicly, you can do it just dont go around telling everyone its an emulator

[patrickl]

II. Cost
--------

[RacerX]

He would be using the source in a commercial application if he charged to play games on a cab running MAME.

[Tiger-Heli]

The EULA says you can't sell MAME, the source or use the source in a commercial application. How is he "selling" MAME (or the source)?

AFAIK there is no restriction on the use of MAME in the EULA.

The EULA probably should say that any use of the source code or binary for profit is prohibited.

I know that the MAME devs feel that making a profit from having the program in a cab in a route (or even just charging to play it, even if no profit is made), constitutes a violation of the license, but I'm not sure that that would stand up legally.

[Sephroth57]

well this is all nice for a morals debate, but seriously whos gonna know?

[Tiger-Heli]

well this is all nice for a morals debate, but seriously whos gonna know?

The question was "What is the legality?" not can I get away with it.

If you ask me if you legally need to list yard sale money taken in on your income tax, the answer is "Yes".  If you ask if you should bother doing so or will anything bad happen if you don't, the answer is "Probably not".

[stellarola]

He would be using the source in a commercial application if he charged to play games on a cab running MAME.

Charging for games that I own. I will own the actual game boards to do this. Mame is just my jamma harness ;-)

[GodSend25]

Then use a different emulator, MAME isent the only one out there.

[shmokes]

Now I don't think people SHOULD do that, but only because his designs are ugly, needlessly complex and come out looking like they let the late 80s Atari designers design a 1998 era cabinet and then made it uglier.

God, that's funny.  I remember when that guy was going to have his supposed lawyers shut down this website, and then continued using these forums to promote his product.  Fool.

[stellarola]

Then use a different emulator, MAME isent the only one out there.

Hey I feel you on that dude. I could use like Kawaks or something. I'll check em out see how they work with frontends.

I think its legal to do what I wanted to do. Own the gameboards and use software to emulate the game I OWN in a cabinet I put MY hardwork into. Thanks everyone for getting proactive and posting in this thread! 

[D_Zoot]

Yes, the idiot LLC owners of Gottlieb's stuff can try to milk the collectors of Gottlieb for money by selling them copies of software that they ALREADY BOUGHT in the first place. They can even do it legally.

And that's my point exactly.

[neuromancer]

A) To my way of thinking, "Using the source code" could be interpreted as either: selling a CD with the source code. Like a game creation library. OR writing a commercial application that uses some of the source. Putting the distributed binaries on a machine is not using the source, it's using the binaries. Duh.

B) There is a section of US copyright law that seems to cast some doubt on the naysayers. Any IP attorneys in the house?

Quote from www.loc.gov/copyright:

109(4)(e) Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106(4) and 106(5), in the case of an electronic audiovisual game intended for use in coin-operated equipment, the owner of a particular copy of such a game lawfully made under this title, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner of the game, to publicly perform or display that game in coin-operated equipment, except that this subsection shall not apply to any work of authorship embodied in the audiovisual game if the copyright owner of the electronic audiovisual game is not also the copyright owner of the work of authorship.

[D_Zoot]

Quote from www.loc.gov/copyright:

[snip]
except that this subsection shall not apply to any work of authorship embodied in the audiovisual game if the copyright owner of the electronic audiovisual game is not also the copyright owner of the work of authorship.

This passage would seem to exclude the rom images themselves from this exemption,

[patrickl]

He would be using the source in a commercial application if he charged to play games on a cab running MAME.

"Application" as in "computer software". Anyway you better don't debate my abbreviation of the text, but read the license itself.

@Tiger-Heli, that's what I find so strange. I often read that commercial use of MAME is strictly prohibited, but I can't find that in the license. People argue that the wishes of the devs should not be violated, but if ones downloads the software and uses it on a commercial MAME cab, how are you to know that this is prohibited if not from the license text.

Isn't this something that some devs might think is the "right way" and that Nicola Salmoria actually thinks differently (and does not care about this)? The idea of MAME is to preserve the classic games. I'd say putting cabs with MAME in an arcade will help to preserve the classics and some compensation for the costs of the machine will further enable that.

[Tiger-Heli]

@Tiger-Heli, that's what I find so strange. I often read that commercial use of MAME is strictly prohibited, but I can't find that in the license. People argue that the wishes of the devs should not be violated, but if ones downloads the software and uses it on a commercial MAME cab, how are you to know that this is prohibited if not from the license text.

Okay, I did some more digging in mame.txt.  The applicable portions are:

II. Cost
--------
   MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.

and

The source code cannot be used in a commercial product without the written
   authorization of the authors. Use in non-commercial products is allowed, and
   indeed encouraged.  If you use portions of the MAME source code in your
   program, however, you must make the full source code freely available as
   well.
   Usage of the _information_ contained in the source code is free for any use.

This has been expanded to mean that you can't profit from MAME, but I think a literal interpretation would be:  I can't burn MAME to a CD and sell it for $5 at a flea market or on E-bay, and I can't copy the MAME source code, change a few lines, tack a front end on it, and sell it for $50 as "Tiger's Mega Emulator CD".

The mame.txt also clearly specifies that most of the ROM images are copyrighted.

Your (valid) question is "why doesn't the license say that you can't use MAME in an arcade machine.  I am only guessing here, but I can think of two reasons:

1)  I'm not sure how much you can restrict what someone does with a product.  Let's say I sell Deer Hunting rifles.  I can include a warning that the device is intended for shooting deer and should not be used for shooting quail or targets or people, but I'm not sure I can enforce that.  There is some question whether the software license for Windows is valid, since you can't agree to the license until you open the product, and you can't return the product if you disagree at that point, but I think Bill G's lawyers would win that one.

2)  The license is there to protect the MAME devs.  Possibly, they don't care what you do with the software in regards coin-op.  You would be possibly infringing on the rights of the game developers, or their parent gaming companies, or whoever bought them, and maybe the RIAA, etc., but as long as the MAME devs can say "Hey, we just wrote some software, it's not our fault that it was used in an arcade machine, leave us alone.", they really don't care.

The problem with that is what someone pointed out in a previous similar thread on basically, "enticement to violate copyright", which was applied to devices to allow you to copy commercial music CD's -  (theoretically, copying a commercial music CD (for other than backup purposes) would be illegal, but making a device so you could do it would not be).  MAME may run afoul of this as the software doesn't have a lot of functionality outside of the roms for the games.

[stellarola]

Ok. Thanks for the research everyone. This is the situation at hand... say I own a music cd, and I decided to download the mp3s off of this album. Would that be considered illegal? I already own the music, I'm just using another way to play it. My point is, I own the game pcb I would like to put in this mame cab, is it illegal for me to play this game, even though I already own a board of the game? I dont think so. As long as it's in my possession there should be no problem with me running it in another format. Such as .cda is to .mp3..........just another form of the exact same media.

[SirPeale]

If you own a CD you can rip tracks to play however you see fit.

HOWEVER: you can not play them in a commercial setting.  If you do, you're liable for a lot of fines.  Playing them in a non-commercial setting is okay.

[Sephroth57]

well not really peale, thats like if he had a MP3 jukebox setup on location, someone puts money in and picks songs it plays the MP3s, but the actual CDs the mp3s are ripped from are right inside the cabinet. that would be legal

[SirPeale]

well not really peale, thats like if he had a MP3 jukebox setup on location, someone puts money in and picks songs it plays the MP3s, but the actual CDs the mp3s are ripped from are right inside the cabinet. that would be legal

No, it really wouldn't.  Music is different.  If he had a jukebox (a real one) and put it on location, with CDs inside, it wouldn't be legal unless he paid the royalty fees.  Same would go for MP3s ripped from the CDs that would go in the jukebox (say, an MP3 jukebox).

[stellarola]

Ok...I guess music wasnt a good point. My cabinet is arcade perfect no one would be able to tell it was mame unless I opened the back cover. Like someone said --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type-- this indrusty is dead in America or damn near it and I dont think there will be copyright arcade police on scene checking it out.

[Harry Potter]

How about something like this?

http://home.iprimus.com.au/ozstick/prod_pcbs.html

I think you can get an 8 in 1 version as well. Not sure if they're some sort of MAME hacks though.

Oh and by the way,

NO!

[nostrebor]

well this is all nice for a morals debate, but seriously whos gonna know?

The question was "What is the legality?" not can I get away with it.

If you ask me if you legally need to list yard sale money taken in on your income tax, the answer is "Yes".

[RacerX]

He would be using the source in a commercial application if he charged to play games on a cab running MAME.

"Application" as in "computer software". Anyway you better don't debate my abbreviation of the text, but read the license itself.

Yes, but MAME itself would be the commercial application in this case.

And to whomever said it would be using the binaries and not the source, it's the same thing.  The binaries essentially *are* the source.  They're just interpreted into language your computer can understand.  It doesn't make them any less the same set of instructions.

[stellarola]

Like someone else said, I suppose I would just use another emulator instead of Mame. Also if I only had one game at a time, no one would be able to tell if it were emulated or not. It looks that good.

[DarkKobold]

I'd just like to mention, I don't know of a single court case in which the EULA was either challenged or even brought before the court. That being said, its legal holding is questionable to begin with.

For example (I love examples!) If you buy a copy of Windows XCellentay! And open the box, it could say, "By installing this software, you agree to allowing us into your house to have sex with your girlfriend" I can't return the software, and get my money back... But I don't want Bill Gates screwing my girlfriend.

Now, what kind of binding contract does a click-thru agreement have?

And for all nay-sayers that will arrive, just remember, most likely, niether you nor I have access to Lexus-Nexus. Until I see the proceedings of a court case in which the restrictions of a EULA are upheld, I'll believe they have zero validity.

[Daniel270]

Kinda weird that this topic pop up when it does....  just saw a headline that just might pertain to this....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041214/tc_nm/tech_copyright_dc_2

[DrewKaree]

For example (I love examples!) If you buy a copy of Windows XCellentay! And open the box, it could say, "By installing this software, you agree to allowing us into your house to have sex with your girlfriend" I can't return the software, and get my money back... But I don't want Bill Gates screwing my girlfriend.

Bill Gates has screwed me a few times, screwed my wife a few times, and now he wants my girlfriend too? 

NOW he's going too far! 

[Gunstar Hero]

Sigh... some people. 

There's no way to make what you want to do right OR legal.

It may in fact end up costing you some money. But that's true for ANYTHING.

You know you can almost certainly get away with it, so whats the hold up? Hell, most likely even on the super slim chance you do get nailed, you'll probablyhave a nice cease and desist letter sent your way.

The real question is, how are you gonna like people pounding your "perfect" MAME cab to bits? Commercial cabs get ABUSED. 

[subzero23]

Who really cares?
I say go for it
I mean you're NEVER EVER going to get "Caught"
I mean who the hell knows the difference?

Just go for it

[Tiger-Heli]

Like someone else said, I suppose I would just use another emulator instead of Mame. Also if I only had one game at a time, no one would be able to tell if it were emulated or not. It looks that good.

Okay, let me summarize this:

Is it legal?  Hard to say, it does violate the wishes of the MAME devs, but isn't even clearly restricted by the license.  In that sense, though, it could be considered illegal.  OTOH, so is copying a friend's CD (music or game) or running a single copy of a computer program on multiple PC's or running two TV's from the same cable connection or even playing ROMS that you don't (or maybe do) own the PCB's for, and most of us aren't overly concerned about that.

Is it right or ethical? - Personally, I don't think so.   Emulation has been comfortably running underground like in the early days of Napster, and I would like to keep it that way.  The more mainstream and profitable it gets, the more incentive there is for some corportaion, big brother, or the court system and some arcade company's lawyers to shut it down.

Will anyone know? - Of course!  Someone will unplug your machine and it will boot up and say 512M of 512M of memory okay, Drive A sectors - . . . etc. and anyone will know a real arcade game did not have this.  (Unless you work real hard to hide all this, but even then, many people will notice it takes a long time before the initialization screens come up and suspect.)

What are the consequences? - Individually, you might get served with a "Cease and desist" order, but it's very unlikely.  Namco isn't going to sue you for a million dollars or shut down the MAME project b/c Stellarola put a mamecab in his bookstore.  OTOH, if enough people did this, they might bring about court action which would shut down MAME and possibly all emulation, so you would have to accept that you were a contributory factor to the end of MAME, but that's up to you . . .

And yeah, I know that's a little overly melodramatic . . .

[Chris]

Like someone else said, I suppose I would just use another emulator instead of Mame. Also if I only had one game at a time, no one would be able to tell if it were emulated or not. It looks that good.

Look, it's obvious you know that what you want to do is wrong, and you're looking for people here to tell you to do it anyway; you're not going to find many people here that will.  So either do it or don't.  But if you do, don't be suprised if the local tax man sees your game without the local business license sticker (you'll never get a box full of bootlegs licensed) and lays the smack down on you and the comics shop.

[RacerX]

Emulation has been comfortably running underground like in the early days of Napster, and I would like to keep it that way.  The more mainstream and profitable it gets, the more incentive there is for some corportaion, big brother, or the court system and some arcade company's lawyers to shut it down.

Ethics aside, this is reason enough not to do it.  Emulation is already becoming a little more mainstream.  I've seen articles in Popular Science and other mainstream magazines about it.  A few years ago if I mentioned MAME to someone, I would get a blank stare.  Now if I mention it, sometimes the person has actually heard of it, or they may be running it or some other emulator themselves.  So it's a bit more likely that somebody will recognize what you're doing.

All of that said, none of us can stop you from doing it.  You're going to ultimately do what you want to do.

[paigeoliver]

Actually, most newer games DO show a Bios post. Most newer games run on PC hardware, dedicated hardware is on the way out, PC hardware is cheaper and easier to develop on.

[Harry Potter]

Or if that little  on your shoulder just won't shut the hell up, move to Korea where ripping off other peoples arcade games is a very common thing.

But ultimately (like the previous poster said), you can do what you want.

Just out of curiosity, would you specify the machine runs MAME/Kawaks/(Insert emlator name here)?
I seriously doubt people would fork over cash to play something they can download. If you choose not to mention it and one day while man/woman is playing Pacman and a blue screen of death pops up, they may react like this:  , and may be followed by a few of these: 

[Chris]

they may react like this:

[danny_galaga]

Is it right or ethical? - Personally, I don't think so.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just out of curiosity, would you specify the machine runs MAME/Kawaks/(Insert emlator name here)?
I seriously doubt people would fork over cash to play something they can download. If you choose not to mention it and one day while man/woman is playing Pacman and a blue screen of death pops up, they may react like this:  , and may be followed by a few of these: 

Well, just to play devil's advocate, you can play Pacman (or Ms.Pac) on a reunion machine at Dave and Buster's now, and it's a lot more similar to MAME on an arcade cab than downloading and mashing keys on a keyboard.

True, you can get pretty close with a free download and a HotRod SE, but for the casual player it's still $100.00 (plus a computer system) as opposed to $0.25.

[Sephroth57]

Or if that little

[Harry Potter]

They may not know what pacman looks like but a blue screen of death would certainly arouse some suspicion, as even the biggest computer pleb on this planet has seen one AND knows what it means.

[Stingray]

But if you do, don't be suprised if the local tax man sees your game without the local business license sticker (you'll never get a box full of bootlegs licensed) and lays the smack down on you and the comics shop.

In reality, this is where you're likely to encounter a legal problem. Obviously I don't know the laws from location to location, but I do know that in Oklahoma, all coin operated machines have to have an Oklahoma Tax Commision sticker yearly and they also have to have a city vending machine liscence sticker here in Tulsa, which is also yearly renewable I belive. I feel fairly confident that there are similar laws in place in most other areas of the US. I feel equally confident that there are probably fairly stiff fines for running a coin operated machine without these tax stickers on it.

-S

[Chris]

In reality, this is where you're likely to encounter a legal problem. Obviously I don't know the laws from location to location, but I do know that in Oklahoma, all coin operated machines have to have an Oklahoma Tax Commision sticker yearly and they also have to have a city vending machine liscence sticker here in Tulsa, which is also yearly renewable I belive. I feel fairly confident that there are similar laws in place in most other areas of the US. I feel equally confident that there are probably fairly stiff fines for running a coin operated machine without these tax stickers on it.

Yup.  Trying to steal from videogame companies will make them go after MAME.  Trying to steal from the government with make them go after YOU.  Especially cash-strapped state and municipal governments.

[Shape D.]

well not really peale, thats like if he had a MP3 jukebox setup on location, someone puts money in and picks songs it plays the MP3s, but the actual CDs the mp3s are ripped from are right inside the cabinet. that would be legal

BMI requires you to pay them money if youre playing music in a commercial setting. If you aren't set up to pay them they can fine you for your previous use. This also includes playing the radio in a work setting, BMI is evil, ASCAP is good.

[D_Zoot]

[RayB]

Wow what a debate. Though I think we're all in agreement of the key points, be they fair or not.

I think the main thing Stellarolla needs to consider is
A. You won't make much money.
B. Your machine will get abused
C. Is there a reason why you can't run the original hardware?
D. Your local vending laws may require a permit.
E. What about liability? Say your machine catches fire cuz of your shoddy electrical skills (heh, hypothetically ok?) who's responsible for damages? Will your insurance cover it, expecially considering your machine is in a commercial space?

Is it all worth it to make $10 a week?

[Gunstar Hero]

Exactly.

Plus, you can't say that no one will care, since Namco and Midway have both shown that they both are aware of and not too happy about emulation.

Remember, they helped shut down mame.dk.

[SirPeale]

They may not know what pacman looks like but a blue screen of death would certainly arouse some suspicion, as even the biggest computer pleb on this planet has seen one AND knows what it means.

That's right!  Use DOS.

[stellarola]

Haha, I will rememeber that Peale! . My electrical work is fine, btw. 

[fredster]

It really depends on where you put it and who is looking it over.  If it is in a dynamo cab and it looks kinda like a neo geo, you can get away with it. 

You can have tax stickers all over it, you can get those for anything. They don't open the hood and see what's under it. Tax stickers don't make anything authentic.

If I did it, I'd just have one game running on it at a time. Just switch it out from time to time.

Legally, copyright legally, no, you can't legally run that machine.  You might be able to get away with it legally if you ran say MsPac with a dead MsPac board in the back, that's your licence.

It might raise eyebrows if it reboots on you. I'd just let it run and don't shut off. If you can rig Dos, do it. Just change out the mame command line and don't use a front end.

I have 4 real arcade games in a store that have been running continuously almost a year.  They may have shutdown in a powerfailure, but otherwise they don't even have shutoff switches on them anymore.  They look the same as the day I put them there.

As far as Namco, etc going after mame, there is a larger group of people moving in that direction. All of the AAMA and other groups are thinking about it.

There have been bootlegs in operation since the first video games. Look at all of the bootleg Ms Pac's and knock off boards that were made in the golden age.  They didn't come in and raid arcades as far as I know to find these things.

I have already seen Mame Machines at the arcade auction. I remember talking to an op about the machine and when I told him what it was he became upset.  He looked at me and said "then why would people need these machines?"  Well, he's right, the collector's market will shrink.

Mame and Multigame machines will take up the casual collector.  These mame machines are already on the street because they are being manufactured and sold at low levels in these auctions and on ebay.

It's really just a matter of time.

[danny_galaga]

Haha, I will rememeber that Peale! . My electrical work is fine, btw.

[fredster]

Actually, the biggest problem with video game machines is injuries from the control Panels.

Golden tee's are bad if the metal wears or the bolts get loose around the trackball and raise up. If that happens, then when somebody goes for that 310 yard drive they rip their skin on the loose metal.

Besides, there would be lots less voltage in a Mame Machine than in any other.  I personally don't know anybody that has been electrocuted by a computer. 

As long as you have a properly grounded Isolation transformer in the bottom with a good ground to the frame of the monitor, you are good to go. You have to keep a fuse inline there. 

If you use a computer monitor instead of a regular Arcade monitor, you are even more protected, they have internal circuits that will keep it from conducting.  If you use a wood control panel it would be highly unlikely that any thing more than 5v DC would wack somebody.

I have grabbed a frame on a Arcade monitor by accident.  The charge was there, but it didn't do anything but tee me off.  I had a good isolation transformer in place and a good ground.

The control panel is the dangerous thing, they have to be very very smooth and strong.

[paigeoliver]

You don't have to bring in your machines to get the tax stickers. I have taken old tax stickers off more than one bootleg game, and I even saw a Mame cabinet at auction once with a 2002 tax sticker on it.

As far as blue screens of death go, I have seen those on REAL games as well. Some games run on windows.

[fredster]

Paige,

Do you think that machine was just converted to mame and the builder just didn't remove the sticker or do you think it was being used in operation like that?

If the sticker was 2002, then he probably got it in 2001.  That means people have been doing this for quite some time.

As far as anybody catching someone doing this, there is no group of men in black looking for copyright infringements at corner gas stations.  Go to a flea market and look at all the knockoff crap there is there. It's big business. The person that holds the copyright is really the only one that can enforce the law there. 

This stuff is in the net now, all over it. It's in houses all over the world.  If somebody wanted to do this, they can and will do it all they want.

[paigeoliver]

I am not sure if it was operated like that, but I have spoken to operators who have ran mame cabinets. All of them end up pulling them off location and selling them, people keep putting quarters in at the wrong time and then wanting their money back.

But like I said before, they don't come round and inspect your machines for the tax stamp, instead YOU go get the tax stamps. Your machine is not inspected.

Really, if you really want to operate anything then get a JAMMA cabinet, and a Ms. Pac-Man cabinet. Put them side by side, keep the JAMMA cabinet loaded up with fairly late model import JAP pcbs (puzzle stuff mostly), and forget about Mame altogether.

[stellarola]

What kind of jap puzzles games would you think would work?

[paigeoliver]

Uo Poko
Magical Tetris featuring Mickey Mouse
Mr. Driller series

[fredster]

Paige,

Yeah, you are right. They drop a quarter in and then select the game and are teed when they don't get the quarter.

The only way to stop that is to make the game play only one game at a time. That's the solution, because who reads instructions? Just configure it to run one game at a time.  Each week, change the game.  Have two or three of them in a row.

And you are right about the tax numbers. You just get them at the courthouse or where ever the licencing tells you.  They did that for a year here in TN and abandoned the tax number deal. We fought back and told them we didn't want income tax and other taxes.  We got them to abolish stuff like that.

All we pay is a sales tax.

Stellarola, try the bubble bobble sets.  I only have 4 machines running at a gas station, and I find that all of them have about the same money.

I have a T2, MsPac,Fisherman's bait, and a Twin Cobra (with a green screen).

They have been running constantly since July. I found that somebody got 175,000 on Ms Pac and the thing that freaked me the most was that somebody got 385,000 on twin cobra.

I should give that machine to the man who did that. After all, he probably paid for it in Quarters!

[danny_galaga]

Actually, the biggest problem with video game machines is injuries from the control Panels.

Golden tee's are bad if the metal wears or the bolts get loose around the trackball and raise up. If that happens, then when somebody goes for that 310 yard drive they rip their skin on the loose metal.

Besides, there would be lots less voltage in a Mame Machine than in any other.

[danny_galaga]

although i guess so long as it doesn't involve HOT COFFEE the chances of litigation are slim 

[fredster]

but you put an illegally wired machine out in the public then that is WAY more of a risk than whether mame is legal or not.

Danny, just because you can't wire it up right doesn't mean Stellarola can't. 

I've been working on machines for a long time.  When they get to me 1/2 of them aren't grounded correctly.

Your man in the machine shop isn't a good example. A bench grinder has water on the front and it also has several amps running through it.  Plus, he was probably pretty sloppy to cause that type of accident.  Don't be so sure he thought it was safe. I work in an industrial environment and as long as it's working, it's OK with them.

A wood cabinet is more of a fire hazard than anything.  I don't remember a computer related fire.  If the monitor is a concealed PC monitor, then it's as safe as a PC + Coffee.  If it has an Arcade Monitor in it, as long as it has the isolation transformer and the fuse in place, it's good.

Do you think your cocktail is deadly?

[danny_galaga]

but you put an illegally wired machine out in the public then that is WAY more of a risk than whether mame is legal or not.

Danny, just because you can't wire it up right doesn't mean Stellarola can't.

[fredster]

legally do it. catch my drift?

I understand.

You can in the US. But like anywhere else, it's all fun and games until somebody's eye get's put out.

 

[danny_galaga]

legally do it. catch my drift?

I understand.

You can in the US. But like anywhere else, it's all fun and games until somebody's eye get's put out.

 

wow! so if one day someone in the US decides they want to be an electrician, they just get a truck and some signwriting and they are an electrician? no training, no apprenticeship? an ad in the yellow pages makes it so?

i'm emmigrating to the US! i've got 3/4 of a pilots licence. only did one nav exercise but that should be more than sufficient to fly lear jets. i RECKON i could fly 'em. who needs any of those pesky 'endorsements' anyway 

get that scotch and ginger ready for me. you promised me a drink should we meet! i'll be landing in a football field near you!

[ErikRuud]

Yes, there are people that go into business as electricians (plumber, carpenters, etc) without training or apprenticeship.  They even find people on occasion that are not properly licensed docotrs or lawyers!

However, you are taking your chances with those people, most insurance will not cover damages caused by contractors do not have a current license and insurance.

It depends on local government as to wheter or not these people are operating illegally.

I know that in my town, all repairs must be done by insured, licensed contractors or the homeowner.  Technically, I cannot have my wife's uncle do eletrical work in my house even though he was a licensed, bonded, insured, union electrician for 40 years.  He is retired now, and is not licensed or insured.  I trust him more than most of the electrical contractors that I know in my area.

[paigeoliver]

wiring up arcade cabinets does not require an electrician, in fact most electricians wouldn't even know how to do it (I just sold a game to one of them).

Most arcade game conversions were done by half stoned 19 year olds, and the only way ANY of them were done by licensed electricians were if the operator happened to be an ex-electrician.

[fredster]

wow! so if one day someone in the US decides they want to be an electrician, they just get a truck and some signwriting and they are an electrician? no training, no apprenticeship? an ad in the yellow pages makes it so?

Yep.  This is a free Capitalistic Nation Danny.  If you have the will and you have the know how, you can be anything you want. It's great to be an American. 

As a matter of fact, I have a side business in helping people become Americans, I actually specialize in helping people from Austrailia immigrate to the US.

 

[SirPeale]

Anyone can work with electrical stuff, but you need a licensed electrician to make sure it's legal.  At least in terms of home wiring.

I could rewire my home, but if I ever sell it, I better have the paperwork to back up that it was at MINIMUM inspected by a licensed electrician.

[DrewKaree]

You can in the US. But like anywhere else, it's all fun and games until somebody's eye get's put out.

then it's just funny.


and before I get all these posts about "dood, my brudder lost his eye an it ain't funny" - RELAX.  them's just jokes, is all.

[Harry Potter]

dood, my brudder neerly poked mah eye out (twice) an it was quite funny at the time.

[danny_galaga]

wow! so if one day someone in the US decides they want to be an electrician, they just get a truck and some signwriting and they are an electrician? no training, no apprenticeship? an ad in the yellow pages makes it so?

Yep.

[danny_galaga]

no wait, an astronaut!! yeah that's what i want. so i just tell 'em 'yeah, i been doin this foer years' and job done! of course, what with all that 'merican no-how you don't got no actual rokkit ships to fly in 

[fredster]

Anyone can work with electrical stuff, but you need a licensed electrician to make sure it's legal.

[paigeoliver]

wow! so if one day someone in the US decides they want to be an electrician, they just get a truck and some signwriting and they are an electrician? no training, no apprenticeship? an ad in the yellow pages makes it so?

Yep.  This is a free Capitalistic Nation Danny.  If you have the will and you have the know how, you can be anything you want. It's great to be an American. 

As a matter of fact, I have a side business in helping people become Americans, I actually specialize in helping people from Austrailia immigrate to the US.

 

and now i understand why you guys dont have the lowest infant mortality rate in the world! screw being an electrician, i wanna be a doctor! heaps more money in that. wheres the website for the american yellow pages...

in which case, fredster make mine a martini. stirred...

No, you DON'T want to be a doctor in America. The american medical system is in a crisis because of our overabundance of ambulance chasing "have you been injured" lawyers who make careers out of suing medical people for ANYTHING that goes wrong at the hospital. Some doctors are now making like $30K per year after paying malpractice insurance.

Of course I have never been able to afford medical care anyway (I am sort of perversely proud of it, 17 years since my last doctor visit), but the prices I can't afford are skyrocketing.

[danny_galaga]

Anyone can work with electrical stuff, but you need a licensed electrician to make sure it's legal.

[danny_galaga]

No, you DON'T want to be a doctor in America. The american medical system is in a crisis because of our overabundance of ambulance chasing "have you been injured" lawyers who make careers out of suing medical people for ANYTHING that goes wrong at the hospital. Some doctors are now making like $30K per year after paying malpractice insurance.

Of course I have never been able to afford medical care anyway (I am sort of perversely proud of it, 17 years since my last doctor visit), but the prices I can't afford are skyrocketing.

you're absolutely right! i wanna be an ambulance chasing lawyer! do i have to buy coco-pops or cornflakes to get degree?

[Mameotron]

Danny,

Just to clear things up.....

The legalities of electrical wiring vary greatly from state to state, and sometimes from town to town.

I can tell you that in my state, I can do any wiring inside my house with no special skills or credentials.

[danny_galaga]

very good. that's quite acceptable. i've done work in my own house too. the only thing i got an electrician in for was to move the mains cable which was in a wall we knocked down. again seems like anything goes in the US, but in australia if you want to sell your house and you've changed it structurally you should have the house plans adjusted. you don't HAVE to but if a buyer asks, you could lose the sale

but that's in your HOUSE. i'm talking about a vending machine that you have in a public place. i'm not rubbishing the idea at all, a friend and i had thoughts on those lines. only he wanted to use mame and i wanted to use an original pcb. i hadn't thought about the risk of litigations until stellarola mentioned being good at wiring. that made me realise that saying you're good at something (in australia at least) won't really hold water if you stuff up and someone got hurt. doesn't matter if it's electrocution or the thing catches on fire, questions will be asked...

[DrewKaree]

Depending on your state, you will require a license for lots of things.  Each state will be different, based upon their laws.  If there is a federal law requiring a license, that will override the state law.  Thankfully, they don't require a license for becoming an --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules--, because right now, I just can't afford it, what with the holidays and all. 

We can pretend we have the licenses required, or do the work without the license.  We just have to be prepared to pay the consequences if we are found to be a fraud.  Being that we are such a litigious society, it will usually cost us the money we attempted to make by circumventing those requirements, but other costs can include our lives. 

Those of us confident in our abilities accept the personal risks.  It's funny, but that devil-may-care attitude is what I like about my country.  It's the "devil inside that a_hole" who views something bad happening to them as them buying a winning lottery ticket when said "something" is attached to big business.

Did that clear it up for you danny?  Me neither.  Good   

 

[danny_galaga]

hey, i like your avatar! do you like mine? i thought was very topical 

hey notice how this emoticon is called 'cheesy'  and THIS one is called 'laugh'  ?

[DrewKaree]

hey, i like your avatar! do you like mine? i thought was very topical 

I've loved ALL your Simpson's av's!  Actually, I'm just changing them to get Dartful's dander up.  He yelled at me before and hurted my feewings, so I'm gonna irritate him - kinda like a boil or something  <--That's me laughing, not "cheesy-ing" LOL

[danny_galaga]

hey, i like your avatar! do you like mine? i thought was very topical

[fredster]

The point is moot anyway. If any of you ever visit rgvac, there's a lot of posts about mame.

Here's one today I found really interesting from raven :
I talked with some guys from Monterey, Mexico who were selling cabinets
at the last Super Auction.  They said that noone has regular arcade
machines down there anymore.  All have switched over to essentially
MAME systems anyway.

And if you take a look at the 300 in 1 thread, you can see that Taiwan is using Mame for making money. 

So in this case, we are behind the curve a little bit if we are still just talking about it huh?  Wonder what kind of Licence they have?  Any apprentiships in Mexico I wonder?

[paigeoliver]

The point is moot anyway. If any of you ever visit rgvac, there's a lot of posts about mame.

Here's one today I found really interesting from raven :
I talked with some guys from Monterey, Mexico who were selling cabinets
at the last Super Auction.  They said that noone has regular arcade
machines down there anymore.  All have switched over to essentially
MAME systems anyway.

And if you take a look at the 300 in 1 thread, you can see that Taiwan is using Mame for making money. 

So in this case, we are behind the curve a little bit if we are still just talking about it huh?  Wonder what kind of Licence they have?  Any apprentiships in Mexico I wonder?

A LITTLE behind the curve? Try 6 years. I am pretty sure the first PC based asian MAME jamma boards came out in 1998, it was 1999 at the very latest.

[danny_galaga]

ah, yes. but just because it's been hecho en mexico or made in taiwan doesn't change any argument about either the legality of the software or the safety issues. but on the subject of safety- most factories will have some kinda licence that allows their 10 yo employees to assemble the item. so they are covered in that way. poor design however can bring litigation so it's in their best interest to make it safe.

as an example of copyright infringement en masse australians would be very familiar with Bali. you go there and you load up on pirated DVD's and you come home and see all the movies before they're released at the cinema. Indonesia has very lax copyright laws and so piracy is big business. THAT doesn't mean it's right though.

through all of this bear in mind i am both a devils advocate AND a whiskey priest. After all, what is on my cab if not pirated material? i'm not in denial about that. i don't justify what i've done by trying to make it seem legal. rather i acknowledge that it is piracy but i don't try and make money off it so i feel ok about it.

[crashwg]

For example (I love examples!) If you buy a copy of Windows XCellentay! And open the box, it could say, "By installing this software, you agree to allowing us into your house to have sex with your girlfriend" I can't return the software, and get my money back... But I don't want Bill Gates screwing my girlfriend.

I so hate that crap! 
I buy a PC game, go to install it, then this user agreement pops up...  I read through it and decide I cannot agree with some part of it, now what do I do?  If I don't check the "I Agree" box I won't be able to continue with the installation!  Wal*Mart's policy is to not take back any opened games...  Now what?  The ---daisies--- have you as soon as you break the seal!