Legalities of making money from MAME??

[Tiger-Heli]

well this is all nice for a morals debate, but seriously whos gonna know?

The question was "What is the legality?" not can I get away with it.

If you ask me if you legally need to list yard sale money taken in on your income tax, the answer is "Yes".  If you ask if you should bother doing so or will anything bad happen if you don't, the answer is "Probably not".

[stellarola]

He would be using the source in a commercial application if he charged to play games on a cab running MAME.

Charging for games that I own. I will own the actual game boards to do this. Mame is just my jamma harness ;-)

[GodSend25]

Then use a different emulator, MAME isent the only one out there.

[shmokes]

Now I don't think people SHOULD do that, but only because his designs are ugly, needlessly complex and come out looking like they let the late 80s Atari designers design a 1998 era cabinet and then made it uglier.

God, that's funny.  I remember when that guy was going to have his supposed lawyers shut down this website, and then continued using these forums to promote his product.  Fool.

[stellarola]

Then use a different emulator, MAME isent the only one out there.

Hey I feel you on that dude. I could use like Kawaks or something. I'll check em out see how they work with frontends.

I think its legal to do what I wanted to do. Own the gameboards and use software to emulate the game I OWN in a cabinet I put MY hardwork into. Thanks everyone for getting proactive and posting in this thread! 

[D_Zoot]

Yes, the idiot LLC owners of Gottlieb's stuff can try to milk the collectors of Gottlieb for money by selling them copies of software that they ALREADY BOUGHT in the first place. They can even do it legally.

And that's my point exactly.

[neuromancer]

A) To my way of thinking, "Using the source code" could be interpreted as either: selling a CD with the source code. Like a game creation library. OR writing a commercial application that uses some of the source. Putting the distributed binaries on a machine is not using the source, it's using the binaries. Duh.

B) There is a section of US copyright law that seems to cast some doubt on the naysayers. Any IP attorneys in the house?

Quote from www.loc.gov/copyright:

109(4)(e) Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106(4) and 106(5), in the case of an electronic audiovisual game intended for use in coin-operated equipment, the owner of a particular copy of such a game lawfully made under this title, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner of the game, to publicly perform or display that game in coin-operated equipment, except that this subsection shall not apply to any work of authorship embodied in the audiovisual game if the copyright owner of the electronic audiovisual game is not also the copyright owner of the work of authorship.

[D_Zoot]

Quote from www.loc.gov/copyright:

[snip]
except that this subsection shall not apply to any work of authorship embodied in the audiovisual game if the copyright owner of the electronic audiovisual game is not also the copyright owner of the work of authorship.

This passage would seem to exclude the rom images themselves from this exemption,

[patrickl]

He would be using the source in a commercial application if he charged to play games on a cab running MAME.

"Application" as in "computer software". Anyway you better don't debate my abbreviation of the text, but read the license itself.

@Tiger-Heli, that's what I find so strange. I often read that commercial use of MAME is strictly prohibited, but I can't find that in the license. People argue that the wishes of the devs should not be violated, but if ones downloads the software and uses it on a commercial MAME cab, how are you to know that this is prohibited if not from the license text.

Isn't this something that some devs might think is the "right way" and that Nicola Salmoria actually thinks differently (and does not care about this)? The idea of MAME is to preserve the classic games. I'd say putting cabs with MAME in an arcade will help to preserve the classics and some compensation for the costs of the machine will further enable that.

[Tiger-Heli]

@Tiger-Heli, that's what I find so strange. I often read that commercial use of MAME is strictly prohibited, but I can't find that in the license. People argue that the wishes of the devs should not be violated, but if ones downloads the software and uses it on a commercial MAME cab, how are you to know that this is prohibited if not from the license text.

Okay, I did some more digging in mame.txt.  The applicable portions are:

II. Cost
--------
   MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.

and

The source code cannot be used in a commercial product without the written
   authorization of the authors. Use in non-commercial products is allowed, and
   indeed encouraged.  If you use portions of the MAME source code in your
   program, however, you must make the full source code freely available as
   well.
   Usage of the _information_ contained in the source code is free for any use.

This has been expanded to mean that you can't profit from MAME, but I think a literal interpretation would be:  I can't burn MAME to a CD and sell it for $5 at a flea market or on E-bay, and I can't copy the MAME source code, change a few lines, tack a front end on it, and sell it for $50 as "Tiger's Mega Emulator CD".

The mame.txt also clearly specifies that most of the ROM images are copyrighted.

Your (valid) question is "why doesn't the license say that you can't use MAME in an arcade machine.  I am only guessing here, but I can think of two reasons:

1)  I'm not sure how much you can restrict what someone does with a product.  Let's say I sell Deer Hunting rifles.  I can include a warning that the device is intended for shooting deer and should not be used for shooting quail or targets or people, but I'm not sure I can enforce that.  There is some question whether the software license for Windows is valid, since you can't agree to the license until you open the product, and you can't return the product if you disagree at that point, but I think Bill G's lawyers would win that one.

2)  The license is there to protect the MAME devs.  Possibly, they don't care what you do with the software in regards coin-op.  You would be possibly infringing on the rights of the game developers, or their parent gaming companies, or whoever bought them, and maybe the RIAA, etc., but as long as the MAME devs can say "Hey, we just wrote some software, it's not our fault that it was used in an arcade machine, leave us alone.", they really don't care.

The problem with that is what someone pointed out in a previous similar thread on basically, "enticement to violate copyright", which was applied to devices to allow you to copy commercial music CD's -  (theoretically, copying a commercial music CD (for other than backup purposes) would be illegal, but making a device so you could do it would not be).  MAME may run afoul of this as the software doesn't have a lot of functionality outside of the roms for the games.

[stellarola]

Ok. Thanks for the research everyone. This is the situation at hand... say I own a music cd, and I decided to download the mp3s off of this album. Would that be considered illegal? I already own the music, I'm just using another way to play it. My point is, I own the game pcb I would like to put in this mame cab, is it illegal for me to play this game, even though I already own a board of the game? I dont think so. As long as it's in my possession there should be no problem with me running it in another format. Such as .cda is to .mp3..........just another form of the exact same media.

[SirPeale]

If you own a CD you can rip tracks to play however you see fit.

HOWEVER: you can not play them in a commercial setting.  If you do, you're liable for a lot of fines.  Playing them in a non-commercial setting is okay.

[Sephroth57]

well not really peale, thats like if he had a MP3 jukebox setup on location, someone puts money in and picks songs it plays the MP3s, but the actual CDs the mp3s are ripped from are right inside the cabinet. that would be legal

[SirPeale]

well not really peale, thats like if he had a MP3 jukebox setup on location, someone puts money in and picks songs it plays the MP3s, but the actual CDs the mp3s are ripped from are right inside the cabinet. that would be legal

No, it really wouldn't.  Music is different.  If he had a jukebox (a real one) and put it on location, with CDs inside, it wouldn't be legal unless he paid the royalty fees.  Same would go for MP3s ripped from the CDs that would go in the jukebox (say, an MP3 jukebox).

[stellarola]

Ok...I guess music wasnt a good point. My cabinet is arcade perfect no one would be able to tell it was mame unless I opened the back cover. Like someone said --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type-- this indrusty is dead in America or damn near it and I dont think there will be copyright arcade police on scene checking it out.

[Harry Potter]

How about something like this?

http://home.iprimus.com.au/ozstick/prod_pcbs.html

I think you can get an 8 in 1 version as well. Not sure if they're some sort of MAME hacks though.

Oh and by the way,

NO!

[nostrebor]

well this is all nice for a morals debate, but seriously whos gonna know?

The question was "What is the legality?" not can I get away with it.

If you ask me if you legally need to list yard sale money taken in on your income tax, the answer is "Yes".

[RacerX]

He would be using the source in a commercial application if he charged to play games on a cab running MAME.

"Application" as in "computer software". Anyway you better don't debate my abbreviation of the text, but read the license itself.

Yes, but MAME itself would be the commercial application in this case.

And to whomever said it would be using the binaries and not the source, it's the same thing.  The binaries essentially *are* the source.  They're just interpreted into language your computer can understand.  It doesn't make them any less the same set of instructions.

[stellarola]

Like someone else said, I suppose I would just use another emulator instead of Mame. Also if I only had one game at a time, no one would be able to tell if it were emulated or not. It looks that good.

[DarkKobold]

I'd just like to mention, I don't know of a single court case in which the EULA was either challenged or even brought before the court. That being said, its legal holding is questionable to begin with.

For example (I love examples!) If you buy a copy of Windows XCellentay! And open the box, it could say, "By installing this software, you agree to allowing us into your house to have sex with your girlfriend" I can't return the software, and get my money back... But I don't want Bill Gates screwing my girlfriend.

Now, what kind of binding contract does a click-thru agreement have?

And for all nay-sayers that will arrive, just remember, most likely, niether you nor I have access to Lexus-Nexus. Until I see the proceedings of a court case in which the restrictions of a EULA are upheld, I'll believe they have zero validity.

[Daniel270]

Kinda weird that this topic pop up when it does....  just saw a headline that just might pertain to this....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041214/tc_nm/tech_copyright_dc_2

[DrewKaree]

For example (I love examples!) If you buy a copy of Windows XCellentay! And open the box, it could say, "By installing this software, you agree to allowing us into your house to have sex with your girlfriend" I can't return the software, and get my money back... But I don't want Bill Gates screwing my girlfriend.

Bill Gates has screwed me a few times, screwed my wife a few times, and now he wants my girlfriend too? 

NOW he's going too far! 

[Gunstar Hero]

Sigh... some people. 

There's no way to make what you want to do right OR legal.

It may in fact end up costing you some money. But that's true for ANYTHING.

You know you can almost certainly get away with it, so whats the hold up? Hell, most likely even on the super slim chance you do get nailed, you'll probablyhave a nice cease and desist letter sent your way.

The real question is, how are you gonna like people pounding your "perfect" MAME cab to bits? Commercial cabs get ABUSED. 

[subzero23]

Who really cares?
I say go for it
I mean you're NEVER EVER going to get "Caught"
I mean who the hell knows the difference?

Just go for it

[Tiger-Heli]

Like someone else said, I suppose I would just use another emulator instead of Mame. Also if I only had one game at a time, no one would be able to tell if it were emulated or not. It looks that good.

Okay, let me summarize this:

Is it legal?  Hard to say, it does violate the wishes of the MAME devs, but isn't even clearly restricted by the license.  In that sense, though, it could be considered illegal.  OTOH, so is copying a friend's CD (music or game) or running a single copy of a computer program on multiple PC's or running two TV's from the same cable connection or even playing ROMS that you don't (or maybe do) own the PCB's for, and most of us aren't overly concerned about that.

Is it right or ethical? - Personally, I don't think so.   Emulation has been comfortably running underground like in the early days of Napster, and I would like to keep it that way.  The more mainstream and profitable it gets, the more incentive there is for some corportaion, big brother, or the court system and some arcade company's lawyers to shut it down.

Will anyone know? - Of course!  Someone will unplug your machine and it will boot up and say 512M of 512M of memory okay, Drive A sectors - . . . etc. and anyone will know a real arcade game did not have this.  (Unless you work real hard to hide all this, but even then, many people will notice it takes a long time before the initialization screens come up and suspect.)

What are the consequences? - Individually, you might get served with a "Cease and desist" order, but it's very unlikely.  Namco isn't going to sue you for a million dollars or shut down the MAME project b/c Stellarola put a mamecab in his bookstore.  OTOH, if enough people did this, they might bring about court action which would shut down MAME and possibly all emulation, so you would have to accept that you were a contributory factor to the end of MAME, but that's up to you . . .

And yeah, I know that's a little overly melodramatic . . .

[Chris]

Like someone else said, I suppose I would just use another emulator instead of Mame. Also if I only had one game at a time, no one would be able to tell if it were emulated or not. It looks that good.

Look, it's obvious you know that what you want to do is wrong, and you're looking for people here to tell you to do it anyway; you're not going to find many people here that will.  So either do it or don't.  But if you do, don't be suprised if the local tax man sees your game without the local business license sticker (you'll never get a box full of bootlegs licensed) and lays the smack down on you and the comics shop.

[RacerX]

Emulation has been comfortably running underground like in the early days of Napster, and I would like to keep it that way.  The more mainstream and profitable it gets, the more incentive there is for some corportaion, big brother, or the court system and some arcade company's lawyers to shut it down.

Ethics aside, this is reason enough not to do it.  Emulation is already becoming a little more mainstream.  I've seen articles in Popular Science and other mainstream magazines about it.  A few years ago if I mentioned MAME to someone, I would get a blank stare.  Now if I mention it, sometimes the person has actually heard of it, or they may be running it or some other emulator themselves.  So it's a bit more likely that somebody will recognize what you're doing.

All of that said, none of us can stop you from doing it.  You're going to ultimately do what you want to do.

[paigeoliver]

Actually, most newer games DO show a Bios post. Most newer games run on PC hardware, dedicated hardware is on the way out, PC hardware is cheaper and easier to develop on.

[Harry Potter]

Or if that little  on your shoulder just won't shut the hell up, move to Korea where ripping off other peoples arcade games is a very common thing.

But ultimately (like the previous poster said), you can do what you want.

Just out of curiosity, would you specify the machine runs MAME/Kawaks/(Insert emlator name here)?
I seriously doubt people would fork over cash to play something they can download. If you choose not to mention it and one day while man/woman is playing Pacman and a blue screen of death pops up, they may react like this:  , and may be followed by a few of these: 

[Chris]

they may react like this:

[danny_galaga]

Is it right or ethical? - Personally, I don't think so.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just out of curiosity, would you specify the machine runs MAME/Kawaks/(Insert emlator name here)?
I seriously doubt people would fork over cash to play something they can download. If you choose not to mention it and one day while man/woman is playing Pacman and a blue screen of death pops up, they may react like this:  , and may be followed by a few of these: 

Well, just to play devil's advocate, you can play Pacman (or Ms.Pac) on a reunion machine at Dave and Buster's now, and it's a lot more similar to MAME on an arcade cab than downloading and mashing keys on a keyboard.

True, you can get pretty close with a free download and a HotRod SE, but for the casual player it's still $100.00 (plus a computer system) as opposed to $0.25.

[Sephroth57]

Or if that little

[Harry Potter]

They may not know what pacman looks like but a blue screen of death would certainly arouse some suspicion, as even the biggest computer pleb on this planet has seen one AND knows what it means.

[Stingray]

But if you do, don't be suprised if the local tax man sees your game without the local business license sticker (you'll never get a box full of bootlegs licensed) and lays the smack down on you and the comics shop.

In reality, this is where you're likely to encounter a legal problem. Obviously I don't know the laws from location to location, but I do know that in Oklahoma, all coin operated machines have to have an Oklahoma Tax Commision sticker yearly and they also have to have a city vending machine liscence sticker here in Tulsa, which is also yearly renewable I belive. I feel fairly confident that there are similar laws in place in most other areas of the US. I feel equally confident that there are probably fairly stiff fines for running a coin operated machine without these tax stickers on it.

-S

[Chris]

In reality, this is where you're likely to encounter a legal problem. Obviously I don't know the laws from location to location, but I do know that in Oklahoma, all coin operated machines have to have an Oklahoma Tax Commision sticker yearly and they also have to have a city vending machine liscence sticker here in Tulsa, which is also yearly renewable I belive. I feel fairly confident that there are similar laws in place in most other areas of the US. I feel equally confident that there are probably fairly stiff fines for running a coin operated machine without these tax stickers on it.

Yup.  Trying to steal from videogame companies will make them go after MAME.  Trying to steal from the government with make them go after YOU.  Especially cash-strapped state and municipal governments.

[Shape D.]

well not really peale, thats like if he had a MP3 jukebox setup on location, someone puts money in and picks songs it plays the MP3s, but the actual CDs the mp3s are ripped from are right inside the cabinet. that would be legal

BMI requires you to pay them money if youre playing music in a commercial setting. If you aren't set up to pay them they can fine you for your previous use. This also includes playing the radio in a work setting, BMI is evil, ASCAP is good.

[D_Zoot]

[RayB]

Wow what a debate. Though I think we're all in agreement of the key points, be they fair or not.

I think the main thing Stellarolla needs to consider is
A. You won't make much money.
B. Your machine will get abused
C. Is there a reason why you can't run the original hardware?
D. Your local vending laws may require a permit.
E. What about liability? Say your machine catches fire cuz of your shoddy electrical skills (heh, hypothetically ok?) who's responsible for damages? Will your insurance cover it, expecially considering your machine is in a commercial space?

Is it all worth it to make $10 a week?

[Gunstar Hero]

Exactly.

Plus, you can't say that no one will care, since Namco and Midway have both shown that they both are aware of and not too happy about emulation.

Remember, they helped shut down mame.dk.